Genetics T-Y45591 migration into the Horn of Africa

Long story short, our Cushite ancestors migrated to the Horn from North Sudan & wiped out the indigenous inhabitants who were Hunter Gatherers in the Somali Peninsula.
Do the habesha people also have nilotic plus hunter gatherer? If I'm not mistaken they have more west eurasian but also more omotic than us
 

Apollo

C'mon man
Staff Member
Moderator
Do the habesha people also have nilotic plus hunter gatherer? If I'm not mistaken they have more west eurasian but also more omotic than us
Their hunter-gatherer component is a different one and comes from the Ethiopian highlands and is best represented by Omotic people who have high levels of this element. Somalis have a different type which has gone extinct, but was distinct from the Ethiopian kind, and no longer lives on in anybody but solely in Somalis at about 10% (ghost population). This makes Somalis only 90% Cushitic.

And yes, besides this difference and the slightly more Yemenite (due to South Semitic migrations into the Ethiopian highlands) the rest of Habeshas ancestry is the same as Somalis. Only those two differences.
 
Their hunter-gatherer component is a different one and comes from the Ethiopian highlands and is best represented by Omotic people who have high levels of this element. Somalis have a different type which has gone extinct, but was distinct from the Ethiopian kind, and no longer lives on in anybody but solely in Somalis at about 10% (ghost population). This makes Somalis only 90% Cushitic.

And yes, besides this difference and the slightly more Yemenite (due to South Semitic migrations into the Ethiopian highlands) the rest of Habeshas ancestry is the same as Somalis. Only those two differences.
I'll ask you a question here to avoid opening another thread.
Could you please explain me like I'm 5 what is the ethio-somali component?.
Somalis are about 40% west eurasian, while habeshas are close to 50%. According to this we have more ethio-somali ancestry than habeshas, slightly more nilo saharian , a tiny bit of arabian (much less than habeshas) and much less Ethiopic( is this omotic?) than habeshas. Is ethio-somali also west eurasian? If yes how is it possible that we are 10% more Subsaharan since we have less omotic (which is subsaharan) and more ethio-somali?
And also last thing. How come afars have so much arabian? I can understand oromos since they are heavily mixed with amharas but i thought afars were mostly the same as somalis.
It seems we are unique even in the Horn of africa
 

Apollo

C'mon man
Staff Member
Moderator
I'll ask you a question here to avoid opening another thread.
Could you please explain me like I'm 5 what is the ethio-somali component?.
Somalis are about 40% west eurasian, while habeshas are close to 50%. According to this we have more ethio-somali ancestry than habeshas, slightly more nilo saharian , a tiny bit of arabian (much less than habeshas) and much less Ethiopic( is this omotic?) than habeshas. Is ethio-somali also west eurasian? If yes how is it possible that we are 10% more Subsaharan since we have less omotic (which is subsaharan) and more ethio-somali?
And also last thing. How come afars have so much arabian? I can understand oromos since they are heavily mixed with amharas but i thought afars were mostly the same as somalis.
It seems we are unique even in the Horn of africa
Yes, Somalis are not particularly close to any Ethiopian population on a genome-wide basis, see this study focused on Ethiopia:



Afars form an autosomal branch with Agaws and Amharas, and not with Somalis (see second link).
 
Yes, Somalis are not particularly close to any Ethiopian population on a genome-wide basis, see this study focused on Ethiopia:



Afars form an autosomal branch with Agaws and Amharas, and not with Somalis (see second link).
What about the ethio-somali component? Is that north african or west eurasian cause we have a lot compared to our neighbors.
 

Apollo

C'mon man
Staff Member
Moderator
What about the ethio-somali component? Is that north african or west eurasian cause we have a lot compared to our neighbors.
It is mostly a North African origin component, but from over 5,000 years ago. The computer program was able to detect some kind of ancient race mixing and that is why it split up Somali people's ancestry and not only assigned them one cluster.
 
It is mostly a North African origin component, but from over 5,000 years ago. The computer program was able to detect some kind of ancient race mixing and that is why it split up Somali people's ancestry and not only assigned them one cluster.
Thanks.
I was discussing with someone who basically said we are more SSA than Ethiopian Habeshas cause they have 50% while we have 60% but it seems the African part is majority ethio-somali. I guessed that we are actually the same when it comes to SSA ancestry.
They have more arabian than us but we have nore ethio somali , they have more omotic and we have more nilo saharian so it means we aren't 10% more SSA than them because our African component is also more northafrican than theirs.
Is this correct?
 

Apollo

C'mon man
Staff Member
Moderator
Thanks.
I was discussing with someone who basically said we are more SSA than Ethiopian Habeshas cause they have 50% while we have 60% but it seems the African part is majority ethio-somali. I guessed that we are actually the same when it comes to SSA ancestry.
They have more arabian than us but we have nore ethio somali , they have more omotic and we have more nilo saharian so it means we aren't 10% more SSA than them because our African component is also more northafrican than theirs.
Is this correct?
Somalis and Ethiopians aren't the same when it comes to their SSA ancestry, see my first post above quoting you. Moreover, also see that cladogram link suggesting differing ancestry. SSA isn't all the same, the biggest genetic diversity on earth exists on the African continent.
 
It is mostly a North African origin component, but from over 5,000 years ago. The computer program was able to detect some kind of ancient race mixing and that is why it split up Somali people's ancestry and not only assigned them one cluster.
My guess is our 60% african is maybe 45% ethio-somali and 15% subsaharan (nilosaharian+ a bit of hunter gatherer) on the other hand habeshas are 50% african but they are may be 35% ethio-somali and 15% ssa( less nilosaharian than us but much more omotic).
Is this correct approximately?
 

Apollo

C'mon man
Staff Member
Moderator
My guess is our 60% african is maybe 45% ethio-somali and 15% subsaharan (nilosaharian+ a bit of hunter gatherer) on the other hand habeshas are 50% african but they are may be 35% ethio-somali and 15% ssa( less nilosaharian than us but much more omotic).
Is this correct approximately?
Only 90% of Somalis ancestry overlaps to some extent with Habeshas. Of which 45% is Nilo-Saharan (an extinct variety not found in modern-day North Sudan) and 45% North African (also no longer found there). The remaining 10% isn't found in Habeshas.

Habeshas on the other hand only share 65% of their whole genome with that above category. The rest is Ethiopian hunter-gather and South Arabian (not prominent in Somalis).
 
Somalis and Ethiopians aren't the same when it comes to their SSA ancestry, see my first post above quoting you. Moreover, also see that cladogram link suggesting differing ancestry. SSA isn't all the same, the biggest genetic diversity on earth exists on the African continent.
Ok so if i understand correctly we have may be similar percentages of SSA but if we break it down our SSA components are different (kinda like I guessed in my other comment) .
 
It is possible they descend from a South Semitic speaking man who crossed from Yemen to Djibouti about 2,000 years ago.
How come habeshas have low T Haplogroup levels ? Aren't they also cushitic+ south arabian? They are mainly E1b1b and J. Probably the sabeans south semites were different than the ones who came to somalia and djibouti
 

Apollo

C'mon man
Staff Member
Moderator
How come habeshas have low T Haplogroup levels ? Aren't they also cushitic+ south arabian? They are mainly E1b1b and J. Probably the sabeans south semites were different than the ones who came to somalia and djibouti
Most agricultural Afro-Asiatic groups are not extremely patrilineal like pastoralist AA groups who live in arid areas (Somalis, Bedouin Arabians etc). You find the same pattern in the Middle East where the historically agricultural 'Arabs' have more diverse lineages (like in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq) while the desert dwelling nomads have high frequency of just a single or very few lineage(s) (Saudi Bedouins etc).

Somalis are not a normal Horn of Africa population when it comes to Y lineage frequencies. They are more of an odd deviation than the norm.
 
Where can we find the 111 STR’f all of them. (From AlFaraj to the Hawiye guy) ?
Sorry for the late reply.

The Samaron Y111 sample is accessible on the Somali T FTDNA page. So is the Al Faraj, it is a 67 STR test, however, it is sufficient for comparison purposes as there are enough slowly mutating STR's to use. The 111 Muuse Cabdalle sample is also available, I believe, on the Somali FTDNA page. The above, your 111 STR'S and the Surre one are the only Somali ones I know of.

The Hawiye T STR data is available in Iacovacci's paper. You can find his paper by doing a Google search. However, it is not 111 STR's.

Esteban collates most, possibly even all, T samples published in academic papers etc. He also has access to individual STR test results which he does not obviously share for privacy purposes. However, he is very helpful when one wants a breakdown of who is closer to them as has an in-depth understanding on the mutation rate of T STR's. I also possess a rudimentary understanding of how to use STR calculators but I defer to him for in-depth analysis as I am not that well versed in the varied T STR mutations. However, if you put the time in and have access to STR data, you can do it yourself. FTDNA has a colour coded guide to the mutation rates of STR's for different haplogroups. You can crosscheck this with mutation rates published by other bodies etc.

@anonimo

If you’re disregarding historical manuscripts describing the genealogy of the Isaak tribe then the oldest historical reference of a stand-alone Isaak lineage is derived from Amir Sharmarka Ali Saleh in 1854. This individual of authority traces his ancestry to Sheikh Ishaak and not to Dir.

Somali poetry is based on alliteration and in old Somali the word Dir means people. In that context the poet states that his nemesis is causing problem between his people and Darod. The poet doesn’t mention lineage so Dir the clan can be excluded. In the same context “Dir Rooble” would mean “Rain bearing people” and not Dir the clan.
Haji Ali Shermake's lineage was considered laughable by Burton. He also added in the same book that there was contradictory evidence as to whether the Isaaq were Dir or of Hashemite ancestry. Other Historical material collected around the same time also allude to the Dir ancestry of Isaaqs so why be selective when engaging in a historical debate? The onus is on you to provide evidence of a Sheekh called 'Isxaaq' whose history is documented 800 years ago as you alluded to. Was this Sheekh Bani Hashim by any chance as claimed by a large section of the Isxaaq? If it is the case that an Arab Sheikh called Isxaaq settled among Dir clansmen in the North as claimed by the purveyors of the Sheekh Isxaaq myth, then it is logical to assert the Isaaq T's are just Sheegaad Dirs who claimed the lineage of this Arab Holy man as they are clearly share an ancestry with Dir T's!

Please, I am not here for FKD, my arguments are evidence based, not my own personal interpretation of facts. You are not a linguist cut from the same cloth as the pre-eminent Isaaq linguist Muuse Galal. He collaborated with Andrzejewski in their peer reviewed journal, A Somali Poetic Combat. The Gubba Chain of poems were translated by Muuse Galal and it is clearly highlighted that the Dir clan is referenced in the extract that I provided. For any uninformed readers who have chanced upon this debate via some Google search etc., read Andrzejewski book and all will be clear. There are intellectually dishonest individuals on Somali forums that seek to hide the truth.

As for the Damal Muuse, like I said they paid blood money with my clan, they always identified themselves as Dir hence the name of their clan 'Dir Rooble'. They weren't our Sheegaads/Soo Rac and were only part of our Dia group.

@anonimo

A handful of individuals claiming something doesn’t make their message the gospel. The overwhelming majority of Isaak reject a Dir identity.
We are not talking about a random group of individuals, we are talking about your traditional elders and politicians, individuals who are meant to be representatives of the masses. It does not get more damning than that. As for random individuals, like yourself, a quick search through Somali speaking FKD contributors on Social Media will present countless of Isaaqs identifying as Dir. I ain't claiming the majority identify with Dir but where there is smoke, there is fire.

@anonimo
Unless you’ve confirmed that the individual is of Somali origin I don’t think you can exclude any possibility of T-BY181012 entering the Afar gene pool around the same time it entered the Somali gene pool (~ 200-2 BCE).

It’s forbidden for noble Somali clans to use bow and arrow in warfare (just like the Afar), only Madiban, Tumal and similar castes use bow and arrow. The assimilated Somalis were most likely from these castes.
Unlike you, I do not make make sweeping statements hence why I have not asserted what you have insinuated above. All I did was highlight the ignorance of your claim that the Afars carry the Somali specific subclade when the current data contradicts your claim. Only one OUTLIER Afar sample has so far been proven to belong our subclade.

As for archery being ignoble. Many so called noble clans employed archery, for instance, the Abgaal and Biimaal. I think there is even a reference to Somali archers among some of the clans in Futuh Al Habasha.

@anonimo
SPN derived estimates are far superior and I don’t think the Isaak-Gadabursi/Ciisa split will be recent. I don’t think it will be far removed from 1850ybp and despite two outliers Isaak will turn out a legit.
I agree SNP derived estimates are better, did I ever dispute this? I did not make any concrete assertions about the TMRCA, I only checked the claim you have been peddling that the Surre sample is representative of the Ciise, Samaron etc.

What evidence do you have that it will be far removed from 1800ybp? I am being the devil's advocate. You have no evidence to argue for or against. Neither do I! Comments are free but facts are sacred (C.P. Scott). You only possess the former!

As for the possible Isaaq outliers, I presented them for the sake of argument. I already said that I have a hunch that young clans that bear Muslim names such as Isaaq etc. will turn out to be genetic clan families irrespective of haplogroup divesrity. Just a hunch though.
 
@anonimo

Isaak are not Dir and your little cyber jihad wont change that. The only individuals claiming Dir are those based in Somalia out of economic interest. No other person entertains that idea.

Richard Burtons opinions are irrelevant. Amir Sharmarke Ali Saleh abtirsi in 1840 is the oldest official record of abtirsi to Shekh Ishaaq bin Ahmed. That’s almost 200 years ago. The Amir was also a figure of authority not an average joe.

In the same poetic chain (guba), a poet by the name of Haji Kalif states a line that says “Orgi door ah oo naag dir badan adhi ku sii daysey”. Context is important when one is discussing Somali poetry. The poet is not talking about Dir (the clan) but dir as in people in old Somali terminology.


Again... Dir Roob Leh (rain bearing people) coincides perfectly with the story of how that sub clan brought rains to the drought stricken land of the Majertein whom they settled with first before moving south. The name does not imply a Dir genealogy.

Archery is considered ignoble by noble Somali clans because it is associated with hunter gatherer lifestyle. Qaansalay is a term with negative connotation in Somali.
 
@Cuneo


The debate started off about the falsehood you uttered regarding the Y-dna split of the Somali lineage. All I did was check your BS. Moreover, it was you that got defensive and injected the Sheekh Isxaaq origin myth which I merely challenged with evidence. My question was simple, where is the 800 year old historical evidence of an Arab Sheikh called Sheekh Isxaaq Bin Ahmed settling among the Dir clan and establishing a new clan? You cannot on one hand state that you do not identify with the Arab origin myth whilst simultaneously promoting the fraudulent Abtirsi of a 19th century vassal of foreign powers who claimed to descend from the Prophet's SAWS lineage for prestige purposes. Can you not see the cognitive dissonance of your debate stance?

As for Haji Sharmarke, he was not the genealogical authority figure you claim. H.S started his career as the Captain of a Dhow who ingratiated himself with the British. I agree that he was a charismatic, ingenious fellow but he was just a warlord figure who employed foreign gunmen and canons to control the trading port of Zeila. H.S did not also have authority beyond the town’s wall as demonstrated by the fact that an Ciise nomad killed his son in cold blood in Zeila town and all he did was accept blood payment in lieu of his son’s life. The fact that he died an inglorious death after overreaching his authority by killing Henri Lambert also illuminates how he was a disposable pawn for the Powers that competed for control of the Somali Northern Coast. The Turks handed him over to the French and he died a prisoner on a French transport ship.


You claim only those in Southern Somalia identify as Dir for economic reasons yet there is irrefutable evidence of those from the region of Somaliland, including your elders, claiming to be Dir. Is there an economic motive for them and Somaliland politicians to claim Dir? I doubt your traditional elders would claim a lineage that is not their own for economic reasons. Surely, they cannot be that Gaajo to throw away an illustrious Fatimid lineage for a Few Dollars More? Who could possibly be bribing them to claim Dir? The Anonimo Jihadist Illuminati? To utter such a blasphemy would be a stain on one’s clan integrity. You are free to your opinion but please do not pass if off as fact because you are not an authority figure of the Isaaq clan, but merely a Pleb that airs a vacuous, unsubstantiated opinion on social media.


How dare you continue twisting the meaning of the extract from the Gubba poem that I had earlier posted? Stick to the extract in question. Are you of the same intellectual stature as your Habar Jeclo Adeer Muuse Galal who translated the extract I was referencing? In the intro to the journal he co-authored, ‘Dir’ is referenced as a clan who the Isaaq are a constituent part of according to Somalis. Are you also going to argue that Rashid Sheekh Cabdillahi, the renowned Isaaq intellectual and SNM Senior veteran ( https://www.sayruuq.com/waa-kuma-rashiid-sheekh-cabdillaahi-rashiid-gadhweynew-q-boobe-yuusuf-ducaale/ ), is wrong?

Yet there is no one more powerful from Dir and Daarood128

[than the Ogaadeen]

God has dampened their fire and their thunder

Of the people they are not the weakest and yet they have not

fought


128 Two major clan families.

( https://www.progressio.org.uk/sites/default/files/War-and-peace.pdf )


Context is indeed important, but there is no doubting that the old Somali Northern clan division of ‘Dir iyo Daarood’ does not translate as ‘People and Daarood’. It looks like the renowned Isaaq poet referenced in the initial extract was a Sheegaad going by your logic because he self-identified as Dir in the Gubba poems. I wonder, was it for economic or political gain as you have being alluding to?


Lastly, the Bah that MJ Cusman Maxamud Sultans descended from was called Bah Dir in reference to the clan identity of the matrilineal ancestor of the Sultans. This stems from the fact that this ancestor in question was of Dir descent (Dir Rooble). It is impossible for Bah Dir to be translated as Bah ‘People’ in this context as it would be semantically meaningless. The clan in question also paid blood money with my clan for centuries and you will not find one person from our region corroborating your claim that Dir Rooble refers to ‘people of the rain’ as you put it. Furthermore, if their ancestor was to be identified as the ‘bringer of rain’, it would make more sense to call the clan Reer Roobleh as only one individual brought the Dir Rooble lineage to our part of Somalia, not a group of people.


As for archery, are you stating that those who employed archery such as the previous referenced clans are ignoble? The Geri in Futuh Al Habash are noted as being archers. Considering that the matrilineal ancestor of the Habar Yonis was from the Aba Yonis Geri, wouldn’t that make them of partial ignoble ancestry according to your deficient logic?

Please do not respond with subjective hogwash, use sources so we may educate the naïve souls that would chance upon this thread in search of enlightenment. It would be a travesty for them to be misled by nefarious individuals who propagandise instead of presenting a balanced narrative. I do not seek a FKD session as was the norm in our previous cyber lives.




Let us be civilised old foe!
 
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You didn’t debunk anything. You stated that there’s an indication that Ciisa and Gadabursi could be closer to Isaak T carriers. An indication based on STR, not definite proof.

You became rabid when I wrote that Isaak has maintained a different lineage for 800 years and that there are manuscripts describing the life of Shekh Ishaak Bin Ahmad. Amir Sharmarka Ali Saleh’s abtirsi is the oldest official abtirsi to Shekh Ishaak Bin Ahmad. Almost 200 years old and in fact older than the Guba poetic chain. He was a person of high status and authority among the Isaak and not an average joe.

The interpretation of Muse Galal is subjective. What does “Orgi door ah oo naag dir badan adhi ku sii daysey” mean? It’s a line in the same poetic chain. In that context dir means people. Just like the previous line which was a response to Ali Duh.

You misinterpreted what I wrote. Isaak politicians based in Somalia claim Dir because of economic interest.

Bah Dir is a shortened version for Bah Dir Roobleh. So a context for the shortened version would be misleading.

Archery is considered ignoble by noble nomadic Somalis because it’s associated with hunter gatherer lifestyle. A Qansaley is considered worse than a farmer (Qoti).

You want us to be Dir but we are not Dir.
 
You didn’t debunk anything. You stated that there’s an indication that Ciisa and Gadabursi could be closer to Isaak T carriers. An indication based on STR, not definite proof.
111 str's for Samaron are definite proof, ask the admins/Esteban on the FTDNA T page. Don't worry, there is more to come when the Big Y DNA Holiday Sales start. I hope you are around when the results are analysed.

You became rabid when I wrote that Isaak has maintained a different lineage for 800 years and that there are manuscripts describing the life of Shekh Ishaak Bin Ahmad. Amir Sharmarka Ali Saleh’s abtirsi is the oldest official abtirsi to Shekh Ishaak Bin Ahmad. Almost 200 years old and in fact older than the Guba poetic chain. He was a person of high status and authority among the Isaak and not an average joe.


Come now, no need to resort to innuendo. All I did was ask you to present evidence of this 800 year historical tradition, and I am still waiting. FKD can be entertaining but it is deconstructive so let us please make this debate evidence based.

For educational purposes, enlighten me about the manuscripts of the Fatimid Sheekh Isxaaq Bin Ahmed. Please provide excerpts from the manuscripts and a library record would also be most helpful. Wouldn't this make the indigenous T and E-V32 Isaaqs Sheegaad followers of this illustrious Sheekh who supposedly sought sanctuary among the Dir clan in Northern Somalia? Interesting! Are there any real descendants of this Arab Holy man that have a non-Somali paternal lineage? The Haplogroup J Isaaq individual that has recently tested positive is a candidate I reckon.

The interpretation of Muse Galal is subjective. What does “Orgi door ah oo naag dir badan adhi ku sii daysey” mean? It’s a line in the same poetic chain. In that context dir means people. Just like the previous line which was a response to Ali Duh.
Context is not the same. In all the exchanges where 'Dir and Daarood' occur in this poetic exchange, clan families are clearly being alluded to, this is not the case in the above extract you highlighted. Can you provide one academic translation to support your stance please?

You misinterpreted what I wrote. Isaak politicians based in Somalia claim Dir because of economic interest.
I did no such thing. Don't lose your head Good Sir. You stated that 'Only':

@anonimo

The only individuals claiming Dir are those based in Somalia out of economic interest. No other person entertains that idea.
My rebuttal was why are your authority figures, traditional elders and politicians, in Somaliland claiming to be Dir?

@Cuneo

You claim only those in Southern Somalia identify as Dir for economic reasons yet there is irrefutable evidence of those from the region of Somaliland, including your elders, claiming to be Dir. Is there an economic motive for them and Somaliland politicians to claim Dir? I doubt your traditional elders would claim a lineage that is not their own for economic reasons. Surely, they cannot be that Gaajo to throw away an illustrious Fatimid lineage for a Few Dollars More? Who could possibly be bribing them to claim Dir? The Anonimo Jihadist Illuminati? To utter such a blasphemy would be a stain on one’s clan integrity. You are free to your opinion but please do not pass if off as fact because you are not an authority figure of the Isaaq clan, but merely a Pleb that airs a vacuous, unsubstantiated opinion on social media.
You want us to be Dir but we are not Dir.
It is all so confusing! When your authority figures are claiming to be Dir, a questions that begs to be answered is who are you guys really? Some of you claim to be Dir, some claim to be Grandchildren of Fatima, daughter of the Prophet SAWS. I am merely being the devil's advocate and presenting contradictory evidence to what you claim for uninformed casual readers.
 
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@anonimo

For you it all boils down to boosting your insignificant numbers by claiming Isaak as Dir. The Y-DNA you’re trying to use to legitimize your case has shattered the false genealogy of the Dir clan. It’s also impossible for Isaak to be Dir while at the same time being the children of their alleged brother Magaadle.

I can also tell you that Magaadle do not claim Dir but are considered Dir by outsiders with zero knowledge of their origin. If anything, there’s more of a chance that Isaak and Magaadle was a single clan pre Islam than Isaak being Dir.

There are many books depicting the life of Shekh Ishaak Bin Ahmad.

1- Al-Dur Al Muntakhab Fi Alaqab Wal-asab (12 century manuscript) by unkown author.
2-Al Casjad Al-Manduum Li-Taariikh Wal-culuum (12 century manuscript) by
- Maxamed Hasan Al-Basri , 50 pages. Location, Al-Maktaba al-Daahiriya
Suuq al Hamiidiya , Dimashq Suriya.
3- Al-3asjad Al Manduum by Sharif Ahmed Muhammad Qaasim Al Gheribaani Yemen A Hashimi historian of Yemen (1910).
4- Thamrat Al-Mushtaaq Fi Manaaqib/Nasab al-Sheekh/Sayid Is'haaq by
Sharif Aydarus Sharif Ali Al-Aydarus 1947. (d 1347 H.A.)
Also the author of Bughyat Al-Amaal Fi-Taariikh Al Soomaal.Possile location
Madba3at 3abaadi Wa-Abnaauh, Yemen, San'a.
5- Adhwaa 3alaa Taariikh Al-Soomaal by Shariif Maxamed 3aydarus (1932-1999)
The ex-mayor of Maqudisho during the last elecion in Somalia 1968.
6-Kitaab Fatx Al-Baab Fi Al-Ansaab Wal-Alaqaab by 3abdialma3alim Ibn Yuusuf
known as 'Baabin Sayidih'.

We are Isaak and not Dir. I think you can take a break and lay off the cyber jihad because it won’t change the reality on ground.
 
I’m a T-L208 Isaaqi. I don’t think T is Arabian in orgin rather it’s possibly Persian/Mesotompia area.
Same haplogroup but totally different clan to you - we aren’t even from the north. Yet genetically we share an origin, that I do not share with large sections of people from ‘my clan’.


my 2 cents in general:
Trying to force the half baked ideas of qabiil into the facts of DNA seems really pointless to me. We need to keep an open mind and be prepared to change our views based on new evidence (genetics) instead of trying to force the new evidence to agree with our old ideas.
 

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