The T-Y44591 timeline is between 3000 ybp and 1850 ybp.
What do you hypothesise as the cause for the migration? I think @Cuneo posits it as the fall of the Thamud. Or do you think it was just a trader from Arabia?
T-Y45591 migration into the Horn of Africa
The T-Y44591 timeline is between 3000 ybp and 1850 ybp.
What do you hypothesise as the cause for the migration? I think @Cuneo posits it as the fall of the Thamud. Or do you think it was just a trader from Arabia?
I am not in a position, intellectually speaking, to hypothesise about the civilisational origin of T-Y44591. That fall of Thamud occurred after the proposed TMRCA of this lineage, that much I am certain of.
I have answered your question about the Somali lineage. My random theory is obviously just a hunch, nothing concrete. A new sample could appear pushing the TMRCA further back etc. or we might come across contradictory socio-historical evidence etc. However, I am highly skeptical of the 'Conquest Theory'. The group migration theory is not beyond reason, however, I cannot yet see any concrete genetic evidence for a solely Somali T lineage clan migration as things stand. Most papers and individual test results point to a founder effect that is 2000 years old at the most. Until other results dispute this, we have nothing to chew on.
@anonimo
Yes, smaller clans in Sanaag fall under the sphere of influence of larger clans such as Isaak and Darod but only Abbas Musa and Gahayle paid blood money with Warsangeli and Habr Yunis.
In contrast, Lo’jir (Gurgura), another small indigenous subclan found in Sanaag, fall under the influence of Warsangeli but do not pay blood money with the Warsangeli. This indicates a recent migration for Abbas Muse and Gahayle. For the latter we have oral tradition supporting this migration.
In Somali traditional law it’s usually a settler community that pays blood money (protection) with the host or the more common one which is a confederation of related clans that form a shield (gashanbur) against larger clans by paying blood money together or in times of enmity go to war as a coalition. Warsangeli and Surre are not related so the latter option is excluded. I could be wrong but all the signs are there.
My initial point was that we have a clear split between Isaak and Dir. You made the argument that Gadabuursi-Isaak split could be more recent than 1850ybp based on STR and my response was, if it’s proven it would make sense given the geographic proximity of the two clans. I didn’t make the argument that geographic proximity is an indication of recent kinship. Let me give you two examples
1. Isaak and Surre are neighbors in Sanaag (geographic proximity) and the split between these two clans is 1850 ybp.
2. Clan genealogy (although disputed by members of the Isaak), Surre and Isaak fall under the Mahe branch of Dir but according to STR the Gadabursi, a completely different branch of Dir (Madulug), is closer to Isaak.
So I don’t think my theory that Gurgura could be closer to Surre and other T bearers is intellectually bankrupt. It can only be proven/disproven by more tests.
As for T-BY181012 it was formed somewhere between 3900-2200 ybp (TMRCA 1850) and we don’t know where it formed or when the supposed migration took place. I don’t think new ideas or new means of subsistence lead to the success of this lineage. How does one man, who doesn’t know the language or customs, manage to establish himself in a new (hostile?) territory?
I believe a group of related men from the same family/subclan established a small coastal enclave and from there interacted with the neighboring communities over time. Many smaller kingdoms on the northern Hejaz coast disappeared such as Lihyan (Dedan) and Thamud because of conquests from the Nabateans who were themselves conquered by the Romans.
Yes, smaller clans in Sanaag fall under the sphere of influence of larger clans such as Isaak and Darod but only Abbas Musa and Gahayle paid blood money with Warsangeli and Habr Yunis.
In contrast, Lo’jir (Gurgura), another small indigenous subclan found in Sanaag, fall under the influence of Warsangeli but do not pay blood money with the Warsangeli. This indicates a recent migration for Abbas Muse and Gahayle. For the latter we have oral tradition supporting this migration.
In Somali traditional law it’s usually a settler community that pays blood money (protection) with the host or the more common one which is a confederation of related clans that form a shield (gashanbur) against larger clans by paying blood money together or in times of enmity go to war as a coalition. Warsangeli and Surre are not related so the latter option is excluded. I could be wrong but all the signs are there.
My initial point was that we have a clear split between Isaak and Dir. You made the argument that Gadabuursi-Isaak split could be more recent than 1850ybp based on STR and my response was, if it’s proven it would make sense given the geographic proximity of the two clans. I didn’t make the argument that geographic proximity is an indication of recent kinship. Let me give you two examples
1. Isaak and Surre are neighbors in Sanaag (geographic proximity) and the split between these two clans is 1850 ybp.
2. Clan genealogy (although disputed by members of the Isaak), Surre and Isaak fall under the Mahe branch of Dir but according to STR the Gadabursi, a completely different branch of Dir (Madulug), is closer to Isaak.
So I don’t think my theory that Gurgura could be closer to Surre and other T bearers is intellectually bankrupt. It can only be proven/disproven by more tests.
As for T-BY181012 it was formed somewhere between 3900-2200 ybp (TMRCA 1850) and we don’t know where it formed or when the supposed migration took place. I don’t think new ideas or new means of subsistence lead to the success of this lineage. How does one man, who doesn’t know the language or customs, manage to establish himself in a new (hostile?) territory?
I believe a group of related men from the same family/subclan established a small coastal enclave and from there interacted with the neighboring communities over time. Many smaller kingdoms on the northern Hejaz coast disappeared such as Lihyan (Dedan) and Thamud because of conquests from the Nabateans who were themselves conquered by the Romans.
That's possible. I've often thought it could be Ancient North Arabian, too. Both Old South Arabian and Old North Arabian use the same musnad script.
Ancient South Arabian script
Which means that if the inscriptions in Somaliland are transcribed and translated, maybe it can reveal the origins of the T-Y44591 carriers.
Ancient North Arabian is more plausible. I believe these migrants were cut off from their ancestral motherland most likely as a result of conquest.
If they were ancient south Arabians from Yemen they would still have a connection to their motherland and we would see the evidence of a large influx of ancient Yemenis over time similar to Eritrea and northern Ethiopia. It would also be visible on the autosomal DNA as well as the language.
Your reasoning is sound in regard to Somali traditional Gashanbur practices. However, as I have previously stated, you are ignoring the clan folklore of my subclan and the subclan in question. If you listened to the Warsangelis and Surres speaking in the coronation video, you would have observed the fact that Cabas Muuse and Warsangeli have a historical relationship, not recent migrants as you claimed. Furthermore, unlike the Lojir, they are not a caste clan associated with a particular occupation. Hence, they were able to form an alliance with the Warsangeli but never claiming to be Warsangeli like the Turre or Ogayslabe. Our History is known by our neighbours.
Your blood argument does not also stand up to scrutiny as it is common knowledge that smaller isolated native Sanaagian lineages such as the Magadle and smaller Habar Habusheed clans were known to pay blood money with bigger clans. When such clans acquired the resources to stand on their own feet, they would establish their own dia paying groups as demonstrated by the relatively recent crowning of a Magaadle Boqor. This is something I. M. Lewis alluded to in his research as highlighted earlier.
My initial response was to correct your incorrect assumption about T-BY181012. If you have taken an FTDNA test or followed the discussions in the Private Haplogroup T Facebook group, you would have known that it has already been established that the Gadabursi and Isaaq Y111 test results on FTDNA have an earlier split. I did not bring up that argument from thin air nor is it hypothetical, and has been confirmed via the FTDNA matching service. The only thing lacking is a specified timeline as FTDNA does not provide such a service.
As I stated earlier, ancient clan genealogies are being made redundant by DNA tests, be they Hawiye, Dir or Darood. For instance, it has been observed that the clan trees are all over the place. Ogaden matching with Marehan more than with Harti; Maxamud Saleebaan not being related to their Harti fellow confederates for almost 3000 years etc. In the case of Dir genealogy, as you correctly stated, I should match closer to Isaaqs than Ciise or Samaron but that is not the case.
Moreover, there is even an argument for some Isaaqs matching closer to Samaron or Ciise than they do to other Isaaqs. There is a FLuxTree of the different STR's on FTDNA, in Iacovacci and other papers. By comparing the slow mutating STR's, one can identify who is closer to each other. If I remember correctly, two of the Isaaq samples were outliers and closer to non-Isaaq than they were to their fellow Isaaq clansmen.
The reason why I picked on your Gurgura statement being intellectually bankrupt is due to the fact it was utterly illogical. Shit has nothing to do with genealogy as I already highlighted how I could be closer to Hawiye T (Habargidir Saleebaan and Karanle T) than I am to my fellow Dir T's. Your initial statement suggested that it is not surprising Isaaq are closely related to Ciise and Samaron due to to the fact that they are geographic neighbours. I highlighted how unscientific and flawed you were by giving the example of Gurgura being in close proximity to both Ciise and Samaron. For the record, I no longer even take it for granted that the Qubeys and Cabdalla branches of Surre will necessary be closer to each other than other T-BY181012 Somalis.
You assumed, and are still assuming, that I am referring to one random Hook Nosed Robinson Crusoe shipwreck survivor landing on Cushitic shores and breeding with a Harem of Big Booty Proto-Xalimos. The above is in jest but you get the drift.
As you are probably aware, the Northern Horn has a history of trade and socio-linguistic exchange with our bow-legged cousins across the sea. Who is to say that a Trader/Sailor//Marib Dam Refugee/Mizrahi Jew etc. who frequented our shores did not join a trading post or pre-existing colonial settlement of Semites, eventually impressing the locals and breeding with several Proto-Xalimos?
I cannot completely discount the above theory of yours nor can you entirely discount my rather fancy take on how our lineage ended up in the Horn. Nonetheless, on a serious note, you are clutching at straws because we do not have sufficient historical evidence to make any firm hypothesis. What we do have is a founder effect which is not that old historically speaking. That is all I can personally go by and not some fantasy about being part of an ancient exodus from Arabia to the Promised Land of Samaaleland!
lets keep it moving my Swedish friend and agree to disagree!
You assumed, and are still assuming, that I am referring to one random Hook Nosed Robinson Crusoe shipwreck survivor landing on Cushitic shores and breeding with a Harem of Big Booty Proto-Xalimos. The above is in jest but you get the drift.
As you are probably aware, the Northern Horn has a history of trade and socio-linguistic exchange with our bow-legged cousins across the sea. Who is to say that a Trader/Sailor//Marib Dam Refugee/Mizrahi Jew etc. who frequented our shores did not join a trading post or pre-existing colonial settlement of Semites, eventually impressing the locals and breeding with several Proto-Xalimos?
I cannot completely discount the above theory of yours nor can you entirely discount my rather fancy take on how our lineage ended up in the Horn. Nonetheless, on a serious note, you are clutching at straws because we do not have sufficient historical evidence to make any firm hypothesis. What we do have is a founder effect which is not that old historically speaking. That is all I can personally go by and not some fantasy about being part of an ancient exodus from Arabia to the Promised Land of Samaaleland!
lets keep it moving my Swedish friend and agree to disagree!
True. But it's fun to speculate. Not like there are any important archeological works going on that we're waiting on, so unfortunately, we may never know the truth about the T-Y44591 forefather.
Arabsiyawi
HA Activist.
Some of the few South East African T-M70 samples are apparently completely unrelated to T-Y16897. I'd really love to see what clade would Rendilles belong to (if they have any T individuals to begin with)
It would not be surprising to find Somali specific subclades among the Rendille, be they E-V32 or T-L208. During his field research among the Rendille, Gunther Schlee came across the oral History of the Sakuye Rendille describing how they descend from Dir and Hawiye.
Anecdotally speaking, a Biimaal fellow I was quizzing on the migration History of his clan mentioned that when they were trekking from Waqooyi to the South, they came upon a river that separated a minority number of clansmen who did not want to risk their lives crossing the river. These clansmen went on to become part of the Rendille according to him. This was before I read Gunther Schlee's book in which a similar ancestral migration that mentions the Biimaal is recounted by a Sakuuye Rendille.
Isn't the story about Rendilles being a lost Somali tribe just a myth? The split between Somalis and Rendilles happened thousands of years ago, during the Proto-Somali stage. So them having lost Dir clans among them seems unlikely. Unless these joined much later during the relatively recent migration south of the Somali clans.
Arabsiyawi
HA Activist.
Oh sorry I didn’t see this. If we’re being logical: if Surre and Gadabuursi/Issa are considered Dir, and That Isaaq are closer to Gadabuursi and Issa than the latter two are to Surre, wouldn’t that mean that Isaaq is indeed Dir ? If the Dir clan is legit, it would mean that.
Apollo
VIP
We need SNP based testing to confirm it. STRs can be misleading at times and predict a similarity or distance that does not match SNP based estimates. No SNP confirmation so far on this hypothesis.
The tribes you mentioned consider themselves Dir. Isaak have maintained a different tradition for 800 years. I don’t think the latter would change identity and adopt a new identity that’s not equal in terms of political and economic power. People change identity if there’s something to gain.
We don’t have a date for the Isaak-Gadabursi/Ciisa split. I don’t think it’s far removed from 1850ybp. The argument that these clans would have a more recent split is based on STR estimates. As @Apollo mentioned SPN derived estimates are more accurate than STR.
One last thing, the migrants were most likely a group of closely related north Arabians who integrated over time with neighboring people and that could explain why Djiboutian Afar carry T-BY181012 rather than Djiboutian Afar being Dir.
I prefer to think of it like the way the Athenians were technically part of the Ionian tribe of Greeks, but they did their own thing. In the same way Isaaq is part of Dir or at least has the same origins, but has now superceded the Dir clan to form their own identity.
Do you mean T-BY181210? How do you know, from FTDNA? If so, that's the first I've heard of non-Somalis carrying the Dir subclade. That's crazy. That would mean one ancestor founded the same lineage in two different ethnic groups. That makes it very unlikely that it was a single individual that was responsible, but a group of men with a shared ancestry.
Did I say that Rendilles are a lost Somali clan? As for the split between Somalis and Rendilles, no one knows when the Somalis and Rendilles parted or whether the Rendilles are an off-shoot of Somalis. All we have are theories swirling around in academic circles.
As for the statement I made earlier about the Sakuye, it is from the Horse's mouth. Allah as my witness, I encountered the origin myth in Gunther Schlee's book from a Biimaal man before I even read the book so there must be some truth to it. I do not make statements that I cannot back up. FYI, Gunther Schlee is a Director of the Max Planck Institute in Germany and is a renowned anthropologist who did field work in Kenya and Ethiopia. This is an extract from his book in which a Sakuye Rendille recounts the origin myth I referenced:
There is no historical evidence that they maintained a different tradition for 800 years. As late as the 19th century, you had Isaaqs identifying as Dir whilst other were promoting the Ahlul Bayt Lineage.
Adaa Dir iyo Daarood dhex dhigay, dab iyo baaruude
Dacar gelisey reerihii ahaa, ul iyo diirkeede
Mugga haatan dirir uumiyuhu, waa is dilayaaye
Isn't the above extract from the Guba chain of poems made by the Isaaq poet Cigaal Bulaale?
There are other Isaaq poets in the 20th century identifying with Dir but you get the point.
Furthermore, if the tradition is old as you claim why are there Isaaqs today identifying with Dir? Your own traditional elders claim Dir and so do some of your politicians. There was even a debate about the discriminatory attitude of the Somaliland Government towards Daroods attending Qabil conferences in Garoowe whilst giving Isaaq and Samaron elders the Green Light to organise and partake in a politicised Dir clan conference in Ethiopia. One Darood MP even suggested in a critical manner that 'Somaliland' should change its name to 'DirLand' if it is being tribalised.
The Somaliland ambassador to Ethiopia at the time of the conference explaining how Dir, including the Isaaq of Hawd and Reserve Area, are the largest clan in K5.
(0-1min)
Even the Habar Yonis Boqor who was opposed to the conference saying that Somalis in K5 should not divide along Qabil lines, be they Dir, Darood or Hawiye.
(2.00 min mark)
No traditional elder of a major Somali clan who has maintained a separate identity for 800 years as you suggest would claim a Qabil identity that is alien to them! Imagine, Darood Sultans or Ugaases claiming to belong to Hawiye or Dir.
As for politicians, apart from the ones in the South who have sought greener pastures, even respectable former SNM veterans such as the Habar Awal Mujahid Boobe highlight how Somaliland is a Dir and Darood inhabited state. Why does he not state it is a Isaaq, Darood and Dir inhabited state if they all have the have same sentiment you subscribe to?
(2.40 onwards)
In the borders of Somalia as recognised by the International Community, the Isaaq are without doubt the biggest single clan out of all the Somali clans and do not need Dir subclans who are more numerous in K5, Djibouti and N.F.D. However, it is common knowledge that in order to counter the Darood in the politics of the Somali Republic, Isaaqs politicians did identify with a Dir Irir ancestry so as to form an alliance with the Hawiye against the Darood as occurred during the 60's under Cigaal, and more recently, during the Civil War when Abdiraxman Tuur created a strategic alliance with Caydid.
Furthermore, when Isaaqs are in the South, they have been known to pay blood money with Dir subclans. The Damal Muuse Carre Habar Yoonis acquired the name Dir Rooble because it rained when their ancestor sought sanctuary among the Harti Darood according to folklore. However, as time progressed, they did not pay blood money with the more numerous Majeerten but they sought out my own subclan and used to pay blood money with us until they mostly migrated to Togdheer after the Civil War. Similarly, isolated Isaaq settlers in Lower Jubba seek out Biimaal clansmen and pay blood money with them. If there was not an awareness of being Dir among Isaaq clansmen, they would not seek out these clans nor would these clans welcome them with open arms.
You are mistaken again.
Apart from one outlier who is clearly an assimilated Somali, the rest do not appear to belong to BY181012 or even Y16897. Moreover, he is not going to be the only one as Afars have historically assimilated Somalis as testified to by the German missionaries Isenberg and Kapf during their travels through Afar territory in 1839. Considering how the Afars predominately neighbour Dir Somalis, it is not far fetched to assume that the outlier is of Somali ancestry. The Afar samples in Iacovacci does not support your theory!
Courtesy of Don Esteban El Asturiano.
As for the reliability of STR's, in knowledgeable hands, they are a perfect tool. Slow mutating STR's are a reliable indicator of how close two lineages are. When it comes to Haplogroup T STR's, there is no one more knowledgeable than Esteban and the FTDNA Administrator for Haplogroup T, Gareth Henson. STR matches for individuals who have taken the 111 STR test are relatively accurate. A Yfull Test is necessary for a more better TMRCA, however, Esteban has been spot on in his interpretation of Y111 STR's. Even I had my doubts in the beginning as a Habar Yonis T enthusiast can confirm, but he had correctly predicted before Yfull results were out that we belong to T-Y45591 through STR's. I politely disagreed with him on some things, but when it comes to the Science of it all, I tip my hat out to him. More than any other person, the T community owes a lot to him.
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So HJ are closer to al faraj clan and Gadebiirsi are closer to us
So HJ are closer to al faraj clan and Gadebiirsi are closer to us
No.
They are all Y16897 based on a common STR mutation they share. The above is based on 19 STR's so it should be taken with a pinch of salt as more extensive STR tests are reliable. For instance, after comparisons were made using the 111 STR's of Surre, Habaryonis and Samaron, it was established that the above Somali clans are closer to each other than the Al Faraj.
Nonetheless, I presented this Flux Tree to demonstrate that only one Afar sample possesses the STR mutation associated with Y16897.
Arabsiyawi
HA Activist.
Where can we find the 111 STR’f all of them. (From AlFaraj to the Hawiye guy) ?
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@anonimo
If you’re disregarding historical manuscripts describing the genealogy of the Isaak tribe then the oldest historical reference of a stand-alone Isaak lineage is derived from Amir Sharmarka Ali Saleh in 1854. This individual of authority traces his ancestry to Sheikh Ishaak and not to Dir.
Somali poetry is based on alliteration and in old Somali the word Dir means people. In that context the poet states that his nemesis is causing problem between his people and Darod. The poet doesn’t mention lineage so Dir the clan can be excluded. In the same context “Dir Rooble” would mean “Rain bearing people” and not Dir the clan.
A handful of individuals claiming something doesn’t make their message the gospel. The overwhelming majority of Isaak reject a Dir identity.
Unless you’ve confirmed that the individual is of Somali origin I don’t think you can exclude any possibility of T-BY181012 entering the Afar gene pool around the same time it entered the Somali gene pool (~ 200-2 BCE).
It’s forbidden for noble Somali clans to use bow and arrow in warfare (just like the Afar), only Madiban, Tumal and similar castes use bow and arrow. The assimilated Somalis were most likely from these castes.
SPN derived estimates are far superior and I don’t think the Isaak-Gadabursi/Ciisa split will be recent. I don’t think it will be far removed from 1850ybp and despite two outliers Isaak will turn out a legit.
If you’re disregarding historical manuscripts describing the genealogy of the Isaak tribe then the oldest historical reference of a stand-alone Isaak lineage is derived from Amir Sharmarka Ali Saleh in 1854. This individual of authority traces his ancestry to Sheikh Ishaak and not to Dir.
Somali poetry is based on alliteration and in old Somali the word Dir means people. In that context the poet states that his nemesis is causing problem between his people and Darod. The poet doesn’t mention lineage so Dir the clan can be excluded. In the same context “Dir Rooble” would mean “Rain bearing people” and not Dir the clan.
A handful of individuals claiming something doesn’t make their message the gospel. The overwhelming majority of Isaak reject a Dir identity.
Unless you’ve confirmed that the individual is of Somali origin I don’t think you can exclude any possibility of T-BY181012 entering the Afar gene pool around the same time it entered the Somali gene pool (~ 200-2 BCE).
It’s forbidden for noble Somali clans to use bow and arrow in warfare (just like the Afar), only Madiban, Tumal and similar castes use bow and arrow. The assimilated Somalis were most likely from these castes.
SPN derived estimates are far superior and I don’t think the Isaak-Gadabursi/Ciisa split will be recent. I don’t think it will be far removed from 1850ybp and despite two outliers Isaak will turn out a legit.
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Ajnabis constantly tell this Somali woman that she does not look Somali, and now wants to take a DNA test.- Started by Fobnimo Till I Dhimo
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