Genetics T-Y45591 migration into the Horn of Africa

@Cuneo @anonimo @Apollo

Do you guys think it was an individual or a group of relatives that brought T-Y44591 to Somalia? That's why all T-haplogroup carrying Somalis descend from one single subclade?
I think they were a group of related men from the same community who migrated to Yemen and from there crossed into modern day Djibouti/Somaliland area . Their origin was most likely northern Hejaz (ancient Thamūd like the Spaniard Esteban proposed years ago?).

I don’t think one man is able to conquer new territory and become reproductively successful. It could happen but the likelihood of being killed in new territory is too high for one man to be that successful.
 
I think the Somali Big Y samples for T are still small to determine TMRCA and Split Dates.
We need much more Big Y testing for both T and E.

My hypothesis on the origins and migration of T Somali is, Mesopotamian/Anatolian that moved
and migrated with J2, and remember J2 is not Semetic, but still a lot Arabian and Jews have it.

I think T is Assyrian that migrated to Arabia and then to Africa, so its not Arabian. Not everyone
in Arabia and middle East is genetically Arab or Jews or even Semetic.
 

Apollo

C'mon man
Staff Member
Moderator
@anonimo

Did you know there are Fiqishini (Somaliland Hawiyes) testing positive for T1a.

Do you think they may be long lost Surres as they claim origins from Mudug?
 
I think the Somali Big Y samples for T are still small to determine TMRCA and Split Dates.
We need much more Big Y testing for both T and E.

My hypothesis on the origins and migration of T Somali is, Mesopotamian/Anatolian that moved
and migrated with J2, and remember J2 is not Semetic, but still a lot Arabian and Jews have it.

I think T is Assyrian that migrated to Arabia and then to Africa, so its not Arabian. Not everyone
in Arabia and middle East is genetically Arab or Jews or even Semetic.
Haplogroup T is a major lineage among Assyrians but they do not belong to Y16897 even though it’s from the eastern Mediterranean.

Yes, we need more samples to determine when major splits happened, right now we have an Isaak-Dir split and the possibility of an Isaak, Gadabursi, Ciisa cluster vs Somalia/Ethiopia Dir and non Dir Somalis who carry T-BY181012. The latter most likely being lost Dir.
 
Given the geographical distance between Isaak, Gadabursi and Ciisa it would make sense if they form a genetic cluster contra other T-BY181012 carriers but it hasn’t been proven yet.
Shit has nothing to do with Geography. My clan is from the North, ancestrally speaking, and one of its sublcans remained in Sanaag, Cabaas Muuse. Most subclans belonging umbrella clans such as Dir, Darood and Hawiye migrated South from Northern Somalia yet there are a variety of y-dna lineages found among them. By Northern Somalia, I am referring to Waqooyi, Bari, Nugaal and Northern K5.

Genetic genealogy is shedding light on the confederate nature of pre-Islamic clan identities such as Dir and Darood. Only sub sub subclans that formed after the adoption of Islam will IMO appear to be more uniform in their y-dna make-up.

There is also proof that the Gadabursi/Isaaq split will be younger than the Surre Isaaq split. Read my post again. The Y111 test results of the aforementioned three clans clearly demonstrates this. The same probably applies to the Ciise going by their STR results. No STR results are yet available for haplogroup T Ethiopian Dirs such as Gurgura who have tested positive for T. We cannot yet speculate for them.

I think they were a group of related men from the same community who migrated to Yemen and from there crossed into modern day Djibouti/Somaliland area . Their origin was most likely northern Hejaz (ancient Thamūd like the Spaniard Esteban proposed years ago?).

I don’t think one man is able to conquer new territory and become reproductively successful. It could happen but the likelihood of being killed in new territory is too high for one man to be that successful.
There is no evidence for a group of T men migrating to the Horn and establishing a presence in Northern Somalia as we would see more than one historical founder effect. All evidence points to a singular, relatively recent founder effect for the main Somali T cluster. If a group of solely T men had migrated to the Northern Somali Horn, logic would dictate that there would be more diversity. Did only one founder effect survive? It would require more than a few men to conquer new territory and establish themselves in an alien land.

A person of influence, be it money or ideas, who assimilates into a host society can become reproductively successful.

@anonimo

Did you know there are Fαqashini (Somaliland Hawiyes) testing positive for T1a.

Do you think they may be long lost Surres as they claim origins from Mudug?
No, they are not Surre. Surre have their origins in Waqooyi and not in Mudug. A large concentration of them is in Mudug but you also have a lot of Surres in K5 and, to a lesser extent, in Southern Somalia too.

I am not surprised about Hawiyes testing for T as there are already Karanles and Hiiraabs who have tested positive. Considering that they and other Southern Somalis are underrepresented on 23andme, I am sure we will come across more Hawiye T's.
 
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@anonimo

Did you know there are Fiqishini (Somaliland Hawiyes) testing positive for T1a.

Do you think they may be long lost Surres as they claim origins from Mudug?
[/QUOTE












Yeah, one of my 23andMe relative is one of them, he Has T1a.

This was my Question:

Your Somali T haplogroup, whats you clan?
September 1, 2020
OA
fiqishinni


All T1a in other Somalis are either Assimilated DIr or lost Dir.
 
@Apollo

Yeah, one of my 23andMe relative is one of them, he Has T1a.

This was my Question:

Your Somali T haplogroup, whats you clan?
September 1, 2020
OA
fiqishinni


All T1a in other Somalis are either Assimilated DIr or lost Dir.
 
@anonimo

I believe Abbas Musa are recent migrants to Sanaag hence the protection of Warsangeli whom the Abbas Musa pay blood money with. Indigenous clans, smaller stand alone clans like Magadle, Jibrail and Lo’Jir do not pay blood money with other clans.

I think eastern Ethiopia is the ancestral homeland of the Somali ethnic group given the diversity of clans, culture, dialects etc rather than the north.

I don’t think the Gurgura will fall under the hypothetical Isaak-Gadabuursi-Ciisa cluster. They will most like share cluster with Karanle, Surre and others.

The most plausible scenario is a group of closely related men or even distantly related but with the same paternal origin (as in clan). These people most likely crossed the sea and entered the Somali Peninsula by way of Yemen.
 
@anonimo

I believe Abbas Musa are recent migrants to Sanaag hence the protection of Warsangeli whom the Abbas Musa pay blood money with. Indigenous clans, smaller stand alone clans like Magadle, Jibrail and Lo’Jir do not pay blood money with other clans.

I think eastern Ethiopia is the ancestral homeland of the Somali ethnic group given the diversity of clans, culture, dialects etc rather than the north.

I don’t think the Gurgura will fall under the hypothetical Isaak-Gadabuursi-Ciisa cluster. They will most like share cluster with Karanle, Surre and others.

The most plausible scenario is a group of closely related men or even distantly related but with the same paternal origin (as in clan). These people most likely crossed the sea and entered the Somali Peninsula by way of Yemen.
Cabaas Muuse are not recent migrants. They stayed behind when we became dispersed through Bari, Nugaal and Mudug. We know our History better than others. Our migration has always been North to South, or East to West in the case of the Xer Surres living in Northern K5.

I agree that the Somali (Maxaa Tiri) ethnic group started in the East/North-East and gradually expanded West and South.

As for the Gurgura, where is your evidence? They have always been in geographic contact with their Ciise and Gadabursi cousins. Entire Gadabursi subclans descend from Gurgura maternal ancestors. Going by your flawed geographic continuity argument, wouldn't they and the Karanle share closer ancestry with the Gadabursi/Isaaq/Ciise than Surre whom you claim are more geographically distant? The Somali speaking Karanles of Babile are, loosely speaking, Northern Somalis. They also have a recorded history in the Harar vicinity.

It is stupid to hypothesise without having any solid data at hand when discussing the different lineages of T Somalis. If one debates with a bias intent, then this thread might as well be moved to the FKD section. Let Science do the talking!

As for your migration theory of a group of clansmen migrating, 1850-1250 years ago is yesterday in historical terms and for there not be any other surviving lineages apart from this sole ancestor raises more questions than answers about your theory.
 
Cabaas Muuse are not recent migrants. They stayed behind when we became dispersed through Bari, Nugaal and Mudug. We know our History better than others. Our migration has always been North to South, or East to West in the case of the Xer Surres living in Northern K5.

I agree that the Somali (Maxaa Tiri) ethnic group started in the East/North-East and gradually expanded West and South.

As for the Gurgura, where is your evidence? They have always been in geographic contact with their Ciise and Gadabursi cousins. Entire Gadabursi subclans descend from Gurgura maternal ancestors. Going by your flawed geographic continuity argument, wouldn't they and the Karanle share closer ancestry with the Gadabursi/Isaaq/Ciise than Surre whom you claim are more geographically distant? The Somali speaking Karanles of Babile are, loosely speaking, Northern Somalis. They also have a recorded history in the Harar vicinity.

It is stupid to hypothesise without having any solid data at hand when discussing the different lineages of T Somalis. If one debates with a bias intent, then this thread might as well be moved to the FKD section. Let Science do the talking!

As for your migration theory of a group of clansmen migrating, 1850-1250 years ago is yesterday in historical terms and for there not be any other surviving lineages apart from this sole ancestor raises more questions than answers about your theory.
Abbas Musa happen to be the only clan in Sanaag paying blood money (protection) with another clan (Warsangeli) which indicates a recent migration. This used to be the case for Gahayle pre 1980.

I wrote that a recent split for the Isaak-Gadabursi-Ciisa cluster would make sense given the geographic proximity but it’s yet to be proven.

On the other hand, I believe that Gurgura will cluster with neighboring Karanle and other Dir such as Surre just like the Djiboutian Hawiye (most likely an Ethiopian Karanle) clustered with Surre rather than the surrounding Ciisa.

The idea that one man could conquer or influence an already established community in a foreign territory and have reproductive success is a bit far fetched. A group of related men with a similar paternal origin in the terms of genetics could very well establish themselves in a territory and prosper.
 
Cabaas Muuse are not recent migrants. They stayed behind when we became dispersed through Bari, Nugaal and Mudug. We know our History better than others. Our migration has always been North to South, or East to West in the case of the Xer Surres living in Northern K5.

I agree that the Somali (Maxaa Tiri) ethnic group started in the East/North-East and gradually expanded West and South.

As for the Gurgura, where is your evidence? They have always been in geographic contact with their Ciise and Gadabursi cousins. Entire Gadabursi subclans descend from Gurgura maternal ancestors. Going by your flawed geographic continuity argument, wouldn't they and the Karanle share closer ancestry with the Gadabursi/Isaaq/Ciise than Surre whom you claim are more geographically distant? The Somali speaking Karanles of Babile are, loosely speaking, Northern Somalis. They also have a recorded history in the Harar vicinity.

It is stupid to hypothesise without having any solid data at hand when discussing the different lineages of T Somalis. If one debates with a bias intent, then this thread might as well be moved to the FKD section. Let Science do the talking!

As for your migration theory of a group of clansmen migrating, 1850-1250 years ago is yesterday in historical terms and for there not be any other surviving lineages apart from this sole ancestor raises more questions than answers about your theory.
Cabbas Muuse and Warsangeli have good relations, they have villages in Lasqoray and Badhan
 
@Cuneo I think our origins have already been settled. We originate from the North from
Red Sea/Gulf of of Aden. There is enough evidence both in Somali Oral History and
Population settlement. North/North East and then we moved to West and South.

K5 especially North K5 is very old Somali settlement, Cuz, it is very Close to our original
homeland North/North East. Note the distance btw Diri dawa, Jigjiga from berbera and
Djibouti and North Somalia, Its very close compared to Southern Somalia.

Karanle Dir??? I thought Karanle was Hawiye.
 
Abbas Musa happen to be the only clan in Sanaag paying blood money (protection) with another clan (Warsangeli) which indicates a recent migration. This used to be the case for Gahayle pre 1980.
The bold part is not true. They and the other group of small clan lineages in Sanaag were all attached to other clans until some established their own dia groups. The following excerpt from I.M.Lewis's 1959 journal demonstrates this:


Sanaag 1.PNG


Moreoever, the Cabaas Muuse (Curdudub-Irdodub) are no longer part of the Warsangeli Dia paying group as illustrated by the following coronation of an Ugaas in the area they inhabit.


Like I said before, I know my own History better than you do. My subclan and others such as the Gurgura trace their roots back to Sanaag. The reputed burial ground of the Gurgura ancestor is also located in Sanaag.




I wrote that a recent split for the Isaak-Gadabursi-Ciisa cluster would make sense given the geographic proximity but it’s yet to be proven.

On the other hand, I believe that Gurgura will cluster with neighboring Karanle and other Dir such as Surre just like the Djiboutian Hawiye (most likely an Ethiopian Karanle) clustered with Surre rather than the surrounding Ciisa.
No offence but any odd simpleton can come up with a theory. I ask you again, What logic is there to the above statements? In light of the evidence that the Gurgura have always traditionally neighboured the Ciise, Samaron etc., your 'Geographic Proximity' argument is rendered intellectually bankrupt. Moreover, Gurgura have less interaction with the Karanle than they do with the Ciise and Gadabursi. The Babile Karanles are separated from the Gurgura geographically speaking. Babile does not border the Gurgura co-inhabited areas of Hararghe such as Kombolcha. The Gurgura only border a confederation of Hawiye clans from Mieso. Furthermore, as Surre, we do not border the Karanle and should not share a closer ancestry going by your logic.


The idea that one man could conquer or influence an already established community in a foreign territory and have reproductive success is a bit far fetched. A group of related men with a similar paternal origin in the terms of genetics could very well establish themselves in a territory and prosper.
One man cannot conquer, but one man can attain a status of influence as historically proven in other circumstances. A lot of Japanese clans were reputedly established by single Chinese migrants without conquest etc. That is perfectly within the realms of possibility as exemplified by the relative fact that a single founder effect ( T-BY181210 ) not long before the birth of the Prophet SAWS is responsible for the ancestry of a sizeable percentage of men and women in the Somali ethnic group.

Where are the other lineages that came in your Conquest theory? Surely they couldn't all have been siblings, cousins and so forth?

The onus is on you to prove the worthiness of your hypothesis.
 
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@Cuneo I think our origins have already been settled. We originate from the North from
Red Sea/Gulf of of Aden. There is enough evidence both in Somali Oral History and
Population settlement. North/North East and then we moved to West and South.

K5 especially North K5 is very old Somali settlement, Cuz, it is very Close to our original
homeland North/North East. Note the distance btw Diri dawa, Jigjiga from berbera and
Djibouti and North Somalia, Its very close compared to Southern Somalia.

Karanle Dir??? I thought Karanle was Hawiye.
Karanle are Curudka Hawiye according to folklore, and T is not restricted to Dir. T bearers in other clans might be assimilated Dir depending on their subclade/STR's and whether they come under Dir subclan subclades. However, it would be folly to argue so based on the limited data we possess.
 
The bold part is not true. They and the other group of small clan lineages in Sanaag were all attached to other clans until some established their own dia groups. The following excerpt from I.M.Lewis's 1959 journal demonstrates this:


View attachment 141804

Moreoever, the Cabaas Muuse (Curdudub-Irdodub) are no longer part of the Warsangeli Dia paying group as illustrated by the following coronation of an Ugaas in the area they inhabit.


Like I said before, I know my own History better than you do. My subclan and others such as the Gurgura trace their roots back to Sanaag. The reputed burial ground of the Gurgura ancestor is also located in Sanaag.






No offence but any odd simpleton can come up with a theory. I ask you again, What logic is there to the above statements? In light of the evidence that the Gurgura have always traditionally neighboured the Ciise, Samaron etc., your 'Geographic Proximity' argument is rendered intellectually bankrupt. Moreover, Gurgura have less interaction with the Karanle than they do with the Ciise and Gadabursi. The Babile Karanles are separated from the Gurgura geographically speaking. Babile does not border the Gurgura co-inhabited areas of Hararghe such as Kombolcha. The Gurgura only border a confederation of Hawiye clans from Mieso. Furthermore, as Surre, we do not border the Karanle and should not share a closer ancestry going by your logic.




One man cannot conquer, but one man can attain a status of influence as historically proven in other circumstances. A lot of Japanese clans were reputedly established by single Chinese migrants without conquest etc. That is perfectly within the realms of possibility as exemplified by the relative fact that a single founder effect ( T-BY181210 ) not long before the birth of the Prophet SAWS is responsible for the ancestry of a sizeable percentage of men and women in the Somali ethnic group.

Where are the other lineages that came in your Conquest theory? Surely they couldn't all have been siblings, cousins and so forth?

The onus is on you to prove the worthiness of your hypothesis.
I guess we won't know until further archeological studies are done in the region. But I assume if it was just one individual, this guy would have to have considerable influence and fame in later generations. No such figure exists in Northern Somali folklore, except Aw Barkhadle, who came after the establishment of Islam. Perhaps, someone who brought Christianity to Somaliland, but has been long forgotten? Idk.

I'm going to have to agree with @Cuneo on this one for now. At least a close-knit group of kinsmen makes sense for two reasons; 1) it's easier to gain a foothold in a new land if there's many of you and 2) the Somali T-haplogroup carriers are a minority, but they are still probably 10-15% of the population. One man fathering that many descendants doesn't make sense unless he's a Genghis khan/Alexander the Great type conqueror. And Somali history has no such figure.
 
I guess we won't know until further archeological studies are done in the region. But I assume if it was just one individual, this guy would have to have considerable influence and fame in later generations. No such figure exists in Northern Somali folklore, except Aw Barkhadle, who came after the establishment of Islam. Perhaps, someone who brought Christianity to Somaliland, but has been long forgotten? Idk.

I'm going to have to agree with @Cuneo on this one for now. At least a close-knit group of kinsmen makes sense for two reasons; 1) it's easier to gain a foothold in a new land if there's many of you and 2) the Somali T-haplogroup carriers are a minority, but they are still probably 10-15% of the population. One man fathering that many descendants doesn't make sense unless he's a Genghis khan/Alexander the Great type conqueror. And Somali history has no such figure.
Your argument is not without merit. However, genetic genealogical evidence cannot be used to support it yet unless we see more diversity in the Somali T lineage TMRCA. As things stand, we only have that founder effect.

It is possible that he was part of a group migration event, possibly even with the J haplogroup Darood individuals who have distant Arab ancestry. However, the migration date would have to be later than the current TMRCA date of the Somali T lineage as a century or two would have to pass before a 'clan' was formed etc. Hence, the conquest theory does not stand in my opinion. There is also no oral historical recollection among Somalis of a foreign group of men imposing themselves upon a host population.

My preferred theory is that the individual in question is connected to the introduction of a new way of subsistence (Camels) or trade. There are historical records of Arabs trading in Somalia before the adoption of Islam. Moreover, the TMRCA date matches up with Eret's hypothesised introduction of Camels into Northern Somalia from Arabia. He was probably not alone but his lineage proved successful for one reason or the other. We might never know why but I am pretty certain conquest is not one of them.
 

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