Why couldn't a single muslim country be in top 25 best countries for women?

[Shushue]

Most if not all of the Muslim countries don’t fellow Islamic teachings to govern their subjects. Islam freed women from their shackles before western countries had the feminist movements. The only way we can make Muslim countries the best place for our women is through reviving our religion and women knowing their rights in Islam so that they won’t be taken advantage of.

Very sad that you believe that

Your generation was supposed to have a modern mindset

*sigh

 

[Steamdevolopment]

Very sad that you believe that

Your generation was supposed to have a modern mindset

*sigh

Most if not all of the Muslim countries don’t fellow Islamic teachings to govern their subjects. Islam freed women from their shackles before western countries had the feminist movements. The only way we can make Muslim countries the best place for our women is through reviving our religion and women knowing their rights in Islam so that they won’t be taken advantage of.

At least he understands that things have to improve and does not excuse the current situation as righteous.

However many commentators resort to abusing the no-true-scotsman fallacy, where essential no muslim country can be criticized for Islamic practices as it is not "ideal Islam™" that they adherer to.

The fundamental flaw in that argument is that first and foremost no islamic society to date have freedoms and opportunities for women comparable to the more advanced countries in the West, and secondly that the argument requires us to accept a theoretical debate based on an ideal that has never manifested itself and the content of which changes according to the commentator.

Such a proposition is unacceptable as it ignores the social reality, that practices criticized are authentically islamic and forms the debate on the idealist terms instead on reality and facts.

 

[Nomad2054]

As per my other response the referenced study includes 80 different countries across the globe, and as such it is a broad spectrum of countries, systems and ideologies.

I merely highlighted the result of the study, that is being corroborated by the other studies despite different factors being included. What is striking is not that the North and feminist regions performing well, but how poorly Muslim ranks across all the studies.

There is nothing dishonest in representing the conclusions of the study, and you should refrain from ad-hominem attacks and address the underlying factual pattern.

we both live in Scandinavia and comparing our region of the world to primitive Arabs is just being intellectually dishonest or lazy at best, but i shall cool it down moving on swiftly.

The prophet Muhammad would be appalled by how current Islamic Fundamentalists are treating women under their control. This suppression is done in the name of Islamic Law, known as Sharia. But the current suppression of women is shaped by cultural and history. It has little basis in the Quran and it is certainly not consistent with anything we know about what Muhammad taught or how he treated women. Of all the founders of the great religions - Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Islam and Judaism — Muhammad was easily the most radical and empowering in his treatment of women. Arguably he was history’s first feminist.

Muhammad was fundamentally different. He both explicitly taught the radical equality of women and men as a fundamental tenet of true spirituality, and he took numerous concrete measures to profoundly improve the status and role of women in Arabia during his own lifetime.


so radical were Muhammad’s reforms that the status of women in Arabia and early Islam was higher than any other society in the world at that time. Women in 7th century Arabia had rights not extended to most women in the West till recent centuries over 1,000 years later. The fact that women have ended up in such a degraded position in many contemporary Arab/Muslim counties is a tragedy and needs to be rectified if the Islamic culture and civilization is to flourish again as it did during the Abbasid Caliphate from the 8th - 13th centuries when Islamic civilization was a shining light to the world.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-garrison/muhammad-was-a-feminist_b_12638112.html?guccounter=1

now this is why i am a proud first wave Feminist, because thats what all real men are, we have mothers, sisters, wives and daughters.

your false accusations of the prophet scw are base on anti Islamic Propaganda, you speak as if these primitive Arabs are living the truth of Islam when they barely even understanding humanity.

 

[Fang4]

Very sad that you believe that

Your generation was supposed to have a modern mindset

*sigh

I love my religion and my Muslim sisters especially my Somali sisters, my religion and culture gave them their rights first before the West. Would modern mindset save me on the day of judgment I don’t think so. Feminism won’t save them look at the West women are treated like they are sexual objects, I’m the one who feels sad for you I hope you return to the religion of your forefathers.

 

[Steamdevolopment]

Islamic countries aren’t in the 25 best countries for women because there isn’t a seperation between church and state.

They don’t take account into what other people want, they think they know what other people want.

Denmark does not have a seperation of church and states either in accordance with danish constitutions paragraph 4. In fact it was a wise choice to create a state church and organize the Christian communties under it, as it gives the state the power to neutralize the worst elements and create cohesive message, and due to its public nature the Church is forced to being tolerant to large swaths of the danish population.

I think the more important issue is wether the national discourse is based on rational principles and with regard for individual persons ability to function in the best possible way, and not the collective.
This is the crucial difference between islamic countries and the West, besides few moral issues religion does not hold sway as valid argument, and therefore the argument are made based on rational principles that conform to reality, and from there women's right can be advanced when the rules that inhibit them fail to materialize a rational raison d'etre.

 

[Steamdevolopment]

Nayaa, @Knowles why are you on sidelines?

I thought beating some sense into these faraxs was a team effort

 

[Guts]

All men that approve FGM should get their whole dick cut off and stitched up, they can reproduce by having lesbian scissor sex.

 

[Muji]

Nayaa, @Knowles why are you on sidelines?

I thought beating some sense into these faraxs was a team effort

Abayo I’m a Muslim now. Even when I wasnt I didn’t like blaming Islam for their mysogny, that’s handing them a get out of jail free card.

Also, Many of these countries you listed were colonised and they are put off by feminism because of its association with the West/Colonisers.

There’s also extreme poverty and many don’t have access to education. I also did mention how dictators use patriarchy to keep the men at bay like how the weak Afghan government allowed men to rape their wives so that they could have legitimacy.

It’s a complex problem that can’t be explained away by Aisha.

 

[Steamdevolopment]

we both live in Scandinavia and comparing our region of the world to primitive Arabs is just being intellectually dishonest or lazy at best, but i shall cool it down moving on swiftly.

The prophet Muhammad would be appalled by how current Islamic Fundamentalists are treating women under their control. This suppression is done in the name of Islamic Law, known as Sharia. But the current suppression of women is shaped by cultural and history. It has little basis in the Quran and it is certainly not consistent with anything we know about what Muhammad taught or how he treated women. Of all the founders of the great religions - Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Islam and Judaism — Muhammad was easily the most radical and empowering in his treatment of women. Arguably he was history’s first feminist.

Muhammad was fundamentally different. He both explicitly taught the radical equality of women and men as a fundamental tenet of true spirituality, and he took numerous concrete measures to profoundly improve the status and role of women in Arabia during his own lifetime.


so radical were Muhammad’s reforms that the status of women in Arabia and early Islam was higher than any other society in the world at that time. Women in 7th century Arabia had rights not extended to most women in the West till recent centuries over 1,000 years later. The fact that women have ended up in such a degraded position in many contemporary Arab/Muslim counties is a tragedy and needs to be rectified if the Islamic culture and civilization is to flourish again as it did during the Abbasid Caliphate from the 8th - 13th centuries when Islamic civilization was a shining light to the world.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-garrison/muhammad-was-a-feminist_b_12638112.html?guccounter=1

now this is why i am a proud first wave Feminist, because thats what all real men are, we have mothers, sisters, wives and daughters.

your false accusations of the prophet scw are base on anti Islamic Propaganda, you speak as if these primitive Arabs are living the truth of Islam when they barely even understanding humanity.

Comparison to the West
First and foremost you're factual wrong, the study did not just compare the Nordic countries to Arab countries, it included a wide ranging countries form Africa, South America, Asia, and claiming otherwise is bold faced lie.

Comparing is valid form of creating empirical evidence. Why is a comparison on gender inequality anymore invalid than a comparison on GPD, Gini-coefficient, wages, taxation.
Are you opposed to the scientific method of comparative studies?

Arab history and an arab problem:
I honestly can't think of someone who had female sex slaves as the first feminist. That is such basic violation of the basic tenets of equality that we believe in.

Islam has as goes for most Abrahamic religion has a patriarchal makeup that if not outright legitimize women's inferiority does it implicitly by being open to interpretation jf. Quran 4: 34 that has legitimized domestic violence, jf. Quran 4: 24 that has legitimized female sex slaves, jf. Quran 2: 228 that directly states that men have a degree authority over women. It becomes even more problematic when Sahih hadiths are included.

Regardless Islam did confer rights to women, but the problem is that since 20th century because of the succesful feminist movements those rights do not compare to the freedoms and opportunities achieved, and day-dreaming of the glory days pre 20th century does not change that.

And for the record the discussion is how Islam and islamic law is practiced and not how it should be according to your "ideal Islam™" that has never manifested itself and previous islamic societies have not been ideal in a feminist perspective, far from it.

 

[Steamdevolopment]

Abayo I’m a Muslim now. Even when I wasnt I didn’t like blaming Islam for their mysogny, that’s handing them a get out of jail free card.

Also, Many of these countries you listed were colonised and they are put off by feminism because of its association with the West/Colonisers.

There’s also extreme poverty and many don’t have access to education. I also did mention how dictators use patriarchy to keep the men at bay like how the weak Afghan government allowed men to rape their wives so that they could have legitimacy.

It’s a complex problem that can’t be explained away by Aisha.

Please explain the meaning of the get out of jail card?

It does not matter what put them off, what matters is how empirical data shows that Muslim countries fare much worse than even poorer nations, and that shows it is a political and societal choice, and such choices must be criticized when their consequences are apparent.

Making the discourse rational and reality based by confronting them with studies, statistics and other empirical evidence and then tearing a part the weak arguments forces such conservative forces to create a rational raison d'etre for the patriarchal system and history tells us that is when such system falls apart. Right now they are left resorting to "fake news" and it is not "ideal islam™" arguments, and I am wearing them down bit by bit.

Remember this is not an attack on your inner beliefs but rather the practices that legitimizes suffering of women and men, and the irrationality that underpins them.

 

[Shushue]

I love my religion and my Muslim sisters especially my Somali sisters, my religion and culture gave them their rights first before the West. Would modern mindset save me on the day of judgment I don’t think so. Feminism won’t save them look at the West women are treated like they are sexual objects, I’m the one who feels sad for you I hope you return to the religion of your forefathers.

It’s people like you who hold back society from developing, you hold us to your low standard

 

[Shushue]

@Steamdevolopment muslim countries are probably 300 yrs behind the West in mindset, it might take decades or never to modernize these places

It’s sad to see someone not live up their full potential, while the entire world makes a ridicule out of them

 

[Muji]

Please explain the meaning of the get out of jail card?

It does not matter what put them off, what matters is how empirical data shows that Muslim countries fare much worse than even poorer nations, and that shows it is a political and societal choice, and such choices must be criticized when their consequences are apparent.

Making the discourse rational and reality based by confronting them with studies, statistics and other empirical evidence and then tearing a part the weak arguments forces such conservative forces to create a rational raison d'etre for the patriarchal system and history tells us that is when such system falls apart. Right now they are left resorting to "fake news" and it is not "ideal islam™" arguments, and I am wearing them down bit by bit.

Remember this is not an attack on your inner beliefs but rather the practices that legitimizes suffering of women and men, and the irrationality that underpins them.

The Muslim world needs to catch up. I don’t know anyone who is crazy enough to reject that idea

 

[Shushue]

I’m very happy living in the West , happy that smart white men rule over me so that I don’t f*ck society

 

[Steamdevolopment]

@Steamdevolopment muslim countries are probably 300 yrs behind the West in mindset, it might take decades or never to modernize these places

It’s sad to see someone not live up their full potential, while the entire world makes a ridicule out of them

More like 303 years exactly, as the muslim world have not had an enlightenment period, where religion as basis for government was thoroughly challenged.

The West owes it development in large part due to the enlightenment ideas, and until Nullius in verba becomes practiced in regard to islamic government we're doomed to repeat past mistakes.

The basic question for the Islamic countries is not is this morally good in itself and does it advances the well-being of its ctinxenry but rather who does it comes from, and that fundamental discrepancy leads to irrational policies and suffering.

 

[Fang4]

It’s people like you who hold back society from developing, you hold us to your low standard

Atheists don’t care about the greater good of the society and what standard do you have. As an atheist don’t you believe in the survival of the fittest.

If incest and pedophilia were the norm you wouldn’t have any problems with it as atheist, look at how homosexuality has changed in the West from taboo/illegal to know legitimate/normal.

My morals and standards won’t ever change because it is set in stone and it’s source is the Quran.

 

[Shushue]

Atheists don’t care about the greater good of the society and what standard do you have. As an atheist don’t you believe in the survival of the fittest.

If incest and pedophilia were the norm you wouldn’t have any problems with it as atheist, look at how homosexuality has changed in the West from taboo/illegal to know legitimate/normal.

My morals and standards won’t ever change because it is set in stone it’s source being my religion.

I wouldn’t be talking to you if I knew your age, you’re a naive kid who deserves a lesson in history

 

[Fang4]

I wouldn’t be talking to you if I knew your age, you’re a naive kid who deserves a lesson in history

I’m older than you kid, you can’t civilly defend your belief with your intellect and now you are resorting to insults

 

[Nomad2054]

Comparison to the West
First and foremost you're factual wrong, the study did not just compare the Nordic countries to Arab countries, it included a wide ranging countries form Africa, South America, Asia, and claiming otherwise is bold faced lie.

Comparing is valid form of creating empirical evidence. Why is a comparison on gender inequality anymore invalid than a comparison on GPD, Gini-coefficient, wages, taxation.
Are you opposed to the scientific method of comparative studies?

Arab history and an arab problem:
I honestly can't think of someone who had female sex slaves as the first feminist. That is such basic violation of the basic tenets of equality that we believe in.

Islam has as goes for most Abrahamic religion has a patriarchal makeup that if not outright legitimize women's inferiority does it implicitly by being open to interpretation jf. Quran 4: 34 that has legitimized domestic violence, jf. Quran 4: 24 that has legitimized female sex slaves, jf. Quran 2: 228 that directly states that men have a degree authority over women. It becomes even more problematic when Sahih hadiths are included.

Regardless Islam did confer rights to women, but the problem is that since 20th century because of the succesful feminist movements those rights do not compare to the freedoms and opportunities achieved, and day-dreaming of the glory days pre 20th century does not change that.

And for the record the discussion is how Islam and islamic law is practiced and not how it should be according to your "ideal Islam™" that has never manifested itself and previous islamic societies have not been ideal in a feminist perspective, far from it.

ok first of all, instead of just quoting random numbers of chapters and verses, it would be more helpful to us all, if you were to post actual verses directly from the Quran. i have nothing to address except random numbers and an accusation towards the Prophet.

you stated and i quote "Regardless Islam did confer rights to women" now thats a very serious claim and you say that on a whim without any proof.

when i state something i will use scholars, decent sources or actual text, this time i would like to challenge your claim, " islam didnt grant women any rights"

Professor of Islamic Studies sheik Omar explains this issue to a non muslim women by referencing the quran.




where in the world is islamic law practised according to islam, i have explained time and time again i follow prophet Mohammed sunnah, and he lived islam, the issue i have with you and those you draw source from is your inability to differentiate muslims from islam and islam from culture. all muslims do not practise islam the same due to cultural influences and historical realities, arabs are the worst in the word when in comes to human rights and womens rights very easy picking.

 

[bluebird]

Considering you came out a sex deviant incest toting homo troll it couldn't have been too good to you