Watch: Muslim Women Explain How Men Should Hit Their Wives by Hizb ut-Tahrir in Sydney, Australia

[merka]

merka

If Shafie had that viewpoint, then why do his followers preach the adherents the opposite? Does it make sense? Most scholars preach "darb" as a last resort. It is enshrined in the Koran and hadiths. Modern Muslims like you are embarrassed by it and resort to revise and re-interpret it. It is good to admit that the Islamic literature requires to be reformed, isn't that what Ayan Hersi has recently been advocating?

Did these Sheikhs got all wrong?






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msPb3dP2Ff4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ_HHZvt31U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbnMuARdZvA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js9PRsHtzSE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyqWjeoyZrE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kuLtNOtD3Y

How could all these sheikhs above from different Islamic sects misinterpret it?

These scholars you posted are all come from one sect. I can't blame you for that since they are the loudest voices in Islamic scholarship these days.

I'm not the one revising or reinterpreting the religion. This has been the majority opinion of Muslim scholars since it's beginning as I have shown in my last post.

If anyone is reinterpreting Islamic scriptures it is the new age Salafi/Wahhabi movement who decided to throw away centuries of established scholarly opinion and started this trend of giving rulings directly from primary sources without regard for precedent rulings on the same matter.

It's funny how this group were considered heretics by Muslims in the past but now they are the gold standard of Islamic scholarship.

 

[AussieHustler]

merka

The Imams of these videos I posted above are from different sects of Sunnis, including some from Al-Azhar University. Btw, google wife beating and Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb the former Al-Azhar president and Mufti of Egypt and he says exactly the same as these gentlemen above. I posted the Sharia manual for the Shafi school. It is good to see that you guys are reforming Islam from within, but please acknowledge that many powerful scholars interpret the Koran and hadith contrary to your interpretations.

 

[random12345]

merka

The Imams of these videos I posted above are from different sects of Sunnis, including some from Al-Azhar University. Btw, google wife beating and Dr. Ahmad Al-Tayyeb the former Al-Azhar president and Mufti of Egypt and he says exactly the same as these gentlemen above. I posted the Sharia manual for the Shafi school. It is good to see that you guys are reforming Islam from within, but please acknowledge that many powerful scholars interpret the Koran and hadith contrary to your interpretations.

No reformation here. I tend to agree(even if I won't do this myself). Adultery is illegal, so not only would it save her from death, it would save their marriage. I've learnt a long time ago to not see this from a western perspective.

 

[AussieHustler]

No reformation here. I tend to agree(even if I won't do this myself). Adultery is illegal, so not only would it save her from death, it would save their marriage. I've learnt a long time ago to not see this from a western perspective.

random

Sxb, what has adultery got to do with beating your spouse? Do you think by hitting her, this will deter her from any mischief that she might attempt to commit? Prevention of adultery!!! I'm gobsmaked.

 

[random12345]

random

Sxb, what has adultery got to do with beating your spouse? Do you think by hitting her, this will deter her from any mischief that she might attempt to commit? Prevention of adultery!!! I'm gobsmaked.

That's the reasoning of many Sheiks(what I heard anyway). What other reason is there?

 

[AussieHustler]

That's the reasoning of many Sheiks(what I heard anyway). What other reason is there?

random

These sheikhs are misogynists and bigots who view women as a prelude to social chaos and a threat to their "moral order", but you younger guys developed a mindset of "our sheikhs opinions" Vs "westernised opinions", therefore, it is no wonder why social upheaval and regression will always exist in most of the Muslim countries. Many Muslim women (like those in Hisbul tahriir video) developed Stockholm syndrome and defend their abuses at the hands of these sheikhs. Think again.

 

[random12345]

random

These sheikhs are misogynists and bigots who view women as a prelude to social chaos and a threat to their "moral order", but you younger guys developed a mindset of "our sheikhs opinions" Vs "westernised opinions", therefore, it is no wonder why social upheaval and regression will always exist in most of the Muslim countries. Many Muslim women (like those in Hisbul tahriir video) developed Stockholm syndrome and defend their abuses at the hands of these sheikhs. Think again.

Er, no. Whenever I have to weigh western opinion and Islamic opinion, I always side with the latter. You can view them as misogynists if you want. Their reasons for it are justified, especially if it's a means against adultery.

 

[AussieHustler]

Er, no. Whenever I have to weigh western opinion and Islamic opinion, I always side with the latter. You can view them as misogynists if you want. Their reasons for it are justified, especially if it's a means against adultery.

random

If you were in Somalia, will you beat your wife if you think that her arguments with you might one day lead her to commit adultery?

 

[random12345]

random

If you were in Somalia, will you beat your wife if you think that her arguments with you might one day lead her to commit adultery?

I said I wouldn't do it because I've grown up in the west. It's not something you have to do, just something you can. There's hadiths of Muhammad(SAW) never hitting his wives, he only fought for jihad. It's best to follow the sunnah.

 

[AussieHustler]

I said I wouldn't do it because I've grown up in the west. It's not something you have to do, just something you can. There's hadiths of Muhammad(SAW) never hitting his wives, he only fought for jihad. It's best to follow the sunnah.

random

So you pick and choose what is available out there and that hadith has been abrogated by suratul Nisa 4:34. Do you follow the Koran or Hadiths that has been abrogated? You well seem to be in a confused stage about Islam and sooner than later, you will realise that your actions are non the less admirable because unknowingly to you (maybe in denial) it is about reforming Islam. Millions of young Muslims think like you, but they would resist being called reformers. Try the Koran only Muslims, they make a bit more sense in defending Islam than Sunni/Shia Hadith followers.

Here is the Sura: Sura an-Nisa 4:34

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. (Dawood)

 

[random12345]

random

So you pick and choose what is available out there and that hadith has been abrogated by suratul Nisa 4:34. Do you follow the Koran or Hadiths that has been abrogated? You well seem to be in a confused stage about Islam and sooner than later, you will realise that your actions are non the less admirable because unknowingly to you (maybe in denial) it is about reforming Islam. Millions of young Muslims think like you, but they would resist being called reformers. Try the Koran only Muslims, they make a bit more sense in defending Islam than Sunni/Shia Hadith followers.

Here is the Sura: Sura an-Nisa 4:34

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. (Dawood)

The Quran is absolute, indeed. The sunnah, however, is the best way to follow it.

Taken from Islamqa:
"
If a woman rebels against her husband and disobeys his commands, then he should follow this method of admonishing her, forsaking her in bed and hitting her. Hitting is subject to the condition that it should not be harsh or cause injury. Al-Hasan al-Basri said: this means that it should not cause pain.

‘Ata’ said: I said to Ibn ‘Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. [A siwaak is a small stick or twig used for cleaning the teeth - Translator]

The purpose behind this is not to hurt or humiliate the woman, rather it is intended to make her realize that she has transgressed against her husband’s rights, and that her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.

And Allaah knows best."

Upon my searching, I gathered that the vast majority of interpretations included that visible marks must be caused, nor must there be much pain or hitting areas like the face, chest etc. I'll explain this to you since you're feigning ignorance on purpose. The husband does this if he thinks that his wife is cheating on him. You know what the penalty for that is? Death. To avoid such a crime, this seems like a good means no?

 

[AussieHustler]

random

Sxb, I mentioned above that hitting your spouse is valid in Islam but the debate revolves around the definition of "light". You have changed positions many times and let's agree that it is an Islamic duty for a husband to hit his wife if she is "misbehaving".

Since we put that to rest, do you think mental abuse will precede such physical abuses from the husband, regardless how you spin it up as "light", salaax, taabasho or whatever? Then, do you consider spousal mental abuse is as dangerous as physical abuse to her well-being?

 

[random12345]

random

Sxb, I mentioned above that hitting your spouse is valid in Islam but the debate revolves around the definition of "light". You have changed positions many times and let's agree that it an Islamic duty for a husband to hit his wife.

Since we put that to rest, do you think mental abuse will precede such physical abuses from the husband regardless how you spin it up as "light", salaax, taabasho or whatever? Then, do you consider spousal mental abuse is as dangerous as physical abuse to her well-being?

Not at all, because you don't have to do it. I never said it was wrong, just that I wouldn't do it. Though I believe it's completely justified and a means of prevention(beat as in what I quoted). As I said, the best example of how to follow the Quran is in the sunnah. What have I changed positions on?

On your question, it's very unlikely that mental abuse would come from getting hit with a miswak. Ultimately, this will save her from a death sentence. But how would mental abuse come from this? Unless your question isn't about the mental abuse coming from such action but the husband doing it? Well, that's on him. I know of no verse(or hadith) telling you to abuse your wife mentally(or anyway).

 

[Burhan]

This issue was discussed and was put to rest. Pull up the previous thread instead of repeating the same thing. There is no such thing as beating a wife. .It is some Arab culture and nothing to do with the Quran.

This topic is already discussed at length.

 

[Burhan]

Here is the topic. Help yourself instead of repeating the SAME arguments.

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/...hat-domestic-violence-makes-them-happy.21288/

 

[Burhan]

Hi Dheg. There is no light beating or beating at all . The word "Darb" in that context(4:34) means to "Cite them" to authority(as in judge) - Abandon them/Leave them. The miswak business is due to the translators using a story from the Bible to support that view. No authentic Hadith of the prophet supports the translation of beating a wife. If anyone knows please quote.They used the story of Prophet Job(Ayub) who made a bundle of grass sticks to hit with his wife to meet an oath he made out of anger . But even that story is in the Quran with Job doing nothing like that. No mention of him hitting his wife. So, it never happened that way either.

The word Darb in the Quran has many meanings in different verses. Its meaning is determined by the preposition added to it. In this particular verse where many quote to claim there is beating, it actually means "cite them", it is the last step of what a man does in conflict resolution with his wife and it means he raises the issue up to a judge or authority after nothing else works. Or he separates from her.

This is a case where tradition and local bias took over and many translators went with the norm even though there is no evidence supporting that claim.


Normally, in Arabic, Darb as in the Video posted by the OP would mean "Strike/Beat" as well, but check this out also and see its different meanings in the Quran itself:

- journey in the land/earth [2:273, 3:156, 4:101, 5:106, 73:20] Darb in these verses mean Journey/Travel
- propound/cite an example/similitude/parable [2:26, 13:17, 14:24, 14:25, 14:45, 16:74, 16:75, 16:76, 16:112, 17:48, 18:32, 18:45, 22:73, 24:35, 25:9, 25:39, 29:43, 30:28, 30:58, 36:13, 36:78, 39:27, 39:29, 43:17, 43:57, 43:58, 47:3, 59:21, 66:10, 66:11] there are some varying meanings for DARB depending on who you read for translation in these verse. But generally, it means giving an example.
- in this way God propounds/cites the truth and the falsehood [13:17} same here,


And many more examples. It will be too long to quote the word Darb +something in the Quran to show the meanings it has in different contexts.

I can drop the link I quoted from if you are interested for serious reading It is too long to read. What I quoted here is good enough. There is no beating with miswak or with a finger.

Burhan, Mar 28, 2017 Report

 

[Burhan]

1)

DRB fee al ard = journey in the land/earth
[2:273, 3:156, 4:101, 5:106, 73:20]

Some translators use "go out", "move about".


2)

DRB fee sabeeli Allahi = journey in God's way/path
[4:94] This is taken literally and non-literally by translators.


3)

DRB + mathal = propound/cite an example/similitude/parable
[2:26, 13:17, 14:24, 14:25, 14:45, 16:74, 16:75, 16:76, 16:112, 17:48, 18:32, 18:45, 22:73, 24:35, 25:9, 25:39, 29:43, 30:28, 30:58, 36:13, 36:78, 39:27, 39:29, 43:17, 43:57, 43:58, 47:3, 59:21, 66:10, 66:11]

With regard to the translation of DRB in the above verses there is variation, depending on translator, e.g. some use variations in 17:48, 25:9, 43:58, 43:17.


4)

kathalika yadribu Allahu al haqqa wa al batila = in this way God propounds/cites the truth and the falsehood
[13:17]

For this verse some use "collides", "puts/shows forth" (e.g. Ibn Kathir), "points out" (e.g. Al Jalalayn).


5)

Fa darabna AAala athanihim fee al kahfi sineena AAadadan = So We sealed/covered on/over their ears in the cave some years
[18:11]

The verse is literally saying the effect of "DRB on/over their ears in the cave" lasted several years. This seems to suggest God kept them isolated in the cave, when they were hiding out, thus cut off from the outside world. Mustansir Mir in "Verbal Idioms of The Qur'an" says it is an idiom meaning to prevent someone from hearing something, sealing off, or put to sleep. The only other related example in which DRB with something is done on/over something else is 24:31, when covers are cast over chests.


This should be enough to show meaning for the word Darb which also means strike/beat and how it takes different meanings in the Quran.


For those of you who are not invested in Islam and declared their atheism, your arrogance is exceeded only by your ignorance when it comes to Islam. Go ahead, be quick to judge Islam cause it makes you feel good.

Islam wins again on here.

Burhan, Mar 28, 2017 Report

 

[Burhan]

A DEEPER LOOK AT THE WORD 'DARABA' (TO BEAT) IN CONTEXT OF WIVES



Grammar and The Root Word background:

The imperative verb 'idrib' is formed from the root D-R-B and the ground form (Form 1 or stem) verb 'daraba'.
The Arabic word used in verse 4:34 is 'idribo' (1) 'hunna' (2). (In Quranic recitation - 'idribohun').
The two words are connected with a subject pronoun 'wow' which is not the focus here, nor is the conjunction prefix 'wa' which simply means 'and'.

Let us examine the two main parts of the word again, 'Idrib' (1) being an imperative verb and 'Hunna' (2), a feminine plural pronoun (referring to the wives).

A common understanding of Arabic is that [Idrib] + Noun/Pronoun would mean to beat someone which is certainly the form 'idribohunna' is encountered in the Quranic text of verse 4:34.


WITH A PREPOSITION (AN) 'IDRIB' CAN MEAN TO SEPARATE

Another well accepted understanding of Arabic is that [idhrib] + AN + Noun / Pronoun can mean 'to turn away, shun, separate and avoid' someone.

Illustration - Joseph Islam



DARABA vb. (I) ~ to strike, smite, stamp, beat; to liken or strike (a parable or similitude), to cite (an example or a dispute); (daraba fi al-ard) to journey; to draw or cast (a veil); (with prep. 'ala') to pitch on, to stamp; (with prep. 'an) to turn something away; (with prep. bayn) to set up between, to separate, (n.vb) striking, smiting, etc.; (with prep. fi) journeying. [1]


This is also confirmed by the lexicon excerpt below, where we note that 'daraba an' has been rendered as to 'turn away from, leave, forsake, abandon, avoid or shun.'

Source: Hans Wehr's Modern Written Arabic [2]


The argument is usually advanced that as the preposition 'an' is absent from the particular text in the Quran, the word 'idribohunna' cannot be rendered as 'shun/turn away' and therefore must retain the meaning 'to beat them'. There is no similar comparison of the Quranic term 'idribohunna' in the form: idrib + Noun / Pronoun (as in verse 4:34) in other parts of the Quran.



'IDRIBOHUNNA' TO MEAN SHUN OR TO TURN AWAY



Students of classical Arabic and researchers of older Arabic lexicons will note however, that the preposition 'an' is not necessarily required to render the term 'Idribo'hunna' to turn away, shun, avoid or separate. This fact can be attested from the following lexicon excerpt of Edward Lanes who quotes TA (Taj-ul Urus), S (The Sihah), Msb (The misbah of El Feiyumi) and the K (The Kamoos) to discuss the relevant terms.



In this way, the Quranic term 'Idribo hunna' can mean to 'turn away or separate' without the preposition 'an'. This certainly seems to be the understanding of earlier classical Arabic lexicon authorities that were scrutinised and cited by Edward Lanes.

Source: Edward Lanes Lexicon [3]





ANOMALY



Whenever the imperative verb 'idrib' is used in the Quran to denote ‘strike’, whether idiomatically or otherwise, the Quran always qualifies it by making it clear by either one or both of the following:


(1) What object to use to strike with, and / or

(2) What part of the body or 'object' to strike.


002:060 Strike the rock (2) with your staff (1)

002:073 Strike him (2) with a part of it (heifer) (1)

007:160 Strike the rock (2) with your staff (1)

008:012 Strike off their heads (2) and strike off every fingertip (2) of them

008:012 Strike off every fingertip (2) of them.

020:077 Strike for them a dry path in the sea (See 26:63 - elaborated - Strike the sea (2) with your staff (1))

038:044 Take in your hand a bundle of rushes (1), and strike with it


However, only in verse 4:34 do we notice that the imperative verb 'idrib' neither tells us (1) what object to use to strike with nor (2) what part of the body to strike.


Without qualification, it would be difficult to conclude that the intention of the verb was ever to ‘strike’. If 'idribohunna' was translated in the traditional manner to 'strike / beat them', then such an isolated, unqualified rendition would leave it wide open for any aggressed husband to beat / strike his wife in any manner, wherever he wanted, with any amount of given force.


Therefore, verse 4:34 does not fit the Quran's usual qualification of 'idrib' when rendered to 'strike/beat'.

FINAL THOUGHTS





As has been shown above , the term 'Idribo hunna' in Surah Nisa (4.34) can mean to 'shun - turn away from' (not necessarily to beat) and does not necessarily require a preposition 'an' for this meaning to be operative. It was also noted that the imperative verb 'idrib' has never been used in the Quran in an unqualified manner without explaining (1) What object to use to strike with or (2) What part of the body or object to strike.



039:018

"Those who listen to the Word (the Quran) and follow the best meaning in it / best of it (Arabic: fayattabi'una ahsanahu) those are the ones whom God has guided and those are the one's endowed with understanding (Arabic: Albabi)



039.055
"And follow the best of what is revealed to you from your Lord, before the penalty comes to you suddenly while you do not perceive!”




My Comment(below as all above are quotes with one or two exceptions):


Any argument presented after this post is a cry for help. Please read all before you comment. I won't comment for two days on here so you folks can take time to read it. If you could not be bothered to read, Don't comment at all.

Burhan, Mar 29, 2017 Report

 

[Burhan]

There you go guys.



"We bring forward the Truth to crush and destroy falsehood; it is doomed to be banished. Woe to you for your way of thinking about God!"

 

[AussieHustler]

Burhan

This is settled, darb means hit and your very Muslim scholars explained it in those videos.

random

No one beats anyone for fun and friendly sake, it is by people who are angry and couldn't control their anger and thereby resort to beating those who are physically weaker than them. Let's use here our logic and point out that during that moment of rage and anger, the husband would yell and scream profanities to intimidate the wife to accept his orders and when that fails, he will resort to physical violence. Just prior to the physical violence, that is when the bully and the violent husband uses mental violence towards his spouse. Regardless of how you dissect and spin, it is a physical and mental abuse and every decent human-being should be intolerant towards all kinds of domestic abuse. If it was legal in the 7th Century, it should be shunned today.