Salafi Community Continues To Grow In The UK

[AdoonkaAlle]

@citrus_samurai mahadsanid walaal

Please formulate the reasons why you are for or against salafism, people in this thread just going off emotions. I want to see concrete discussion on this.

it's important to have sound basis for accepting or rejecting anything as this will strengthen your foundation in dealing with any potential issues that you may come across that proves challenging to either your creed, life etc.

Now coming to the discussion at hand, the current salafi dawah despite claiming adherence to the first 3 generations of muslims differs very greatly from them. The most important of these differences is their understanding of tawheed, shirk, and worship, modern day salafis follow the teachings of MIAW (mohammed abdulwahab) and not the salaf when it comes to these aspects of the deen.


A while back i made a thread discussing the major problems with regards to salafi (najdi) understanding of tawheed, you can access it here : Salafi understanding of tawheed

Salafis divide tawheed into 3 categories:
1. Tawheed of Lordship
2. Tawheed of worship
3. Tawheed of names & attributes


They claim that in order for a person's tawheed to be complete you need to have all three present and to help strengthen their case they use disbelievers as examples. According to their understanding all of mankind have affirmed tawheed of Lordship except for a few, meaning the pagans of quraysh, chrisitians, jews etc all have affirmed the Oneness of Allah's Lordship
and where they became astray was the Oneness of Allah's Worship.

Now is the above claim true ? No as we've verses from quran, hadith etc explicitly proving without a doubt that all of the above groups are guilty of shirk of Lordship. Think of the christians who worship Jesus AS as their god, the arab pagans who worshipped 360 gods, they all believed & worshipped gods other than Allah, so how can they have tawheed of Allah's Lordship.

When a muslim testifies that Allah is their only God, they're also affirming that Allah is their only Lord, the meaning of god in the shahdah also carries the meaning of Lord. So your god is also your Lord laakin in the salafi creed they've separated between the 2. In their understanding god is defined merely as the Object of Worship decoupling all the attributes of Lordship from the definition.

In all societies past and present god has been defined as a being that has power residing over nature, the creation, universe etc. To the salafis god is just the being that a person directs his/her worship to and stop at that, refusing to accept that people worship god as a result of god possessing attributes of lordship that makes them worthy of worship.

We worship Allah because He is the Lord of all existence, it is His Lordship that makes Him worthy of worship. Similarly when other gods are worshipped besides Allah, it is because the worshipper of these gods have attributed some aspects of Lordship to them and worship them as a result of this belief.

So in essence worship is a result of having a belief in Lordship, when deviation occurs in this belief this is when people start worshipping others beside Allah. What this means is that it's impossible for one to have tawheed in Allah's Lordship and worship others besides Him, the fact that one directs worship to other than Allah is an indication that they don't have tawheed in Allah's Lordship.


The claim that arab pagans, christians etc all have tawheed in Allah's Lordship is thus a false belief, if they did have this tawheed they wouldn't have worshipped anyone besides Allah.


This false belief of gaalo having tawheed of Lordship is then utilised to draw a similarity between the actions of muslims and that of gaalada. Miaw and his followers accused the muslims of his time of committing major shirk as that of arab pagans etc claiming that they were worshipping others besides Allah when they for example sought intercession of the Prophet SAW at his grave. He said that this was exactly like the actions of past mushriks and the Prophet fought them all, so he & his followers would then declare takfir on these muslim making their blood halal.

It's a lot to take in so if you got questions please feel free to ask

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

In a fatwa explaining about different types of tawheed, ibn baz make the absurd claim that chrsitians worship jesus just as an intercessor and NOT because they believe that Jesus is able to harm and benefit them. This is a major scholar and a former mufti of the najdi dawah making claims denying common beliefs of christians that is known to laypeople.

( Part No : 1, Page No: 36)

Now, it becomes clear that the Mushriks did not believe that their deities bring about benefit or cause harm; give life or cause death; provide sustenance or withhold it. Rather, they worshipped them to act as intercessors on their behalf and bring them closer to Allah. Mushriks in the past did not worship AlLat, Al `Uzza, Manat, Jesus, Mary or righteous people because they bring about benefit or cause harm but they worshipped them because they wish for their intercession and that they bring them near to Allah. Nevertheless, Allah described them with Shirk (associating others with Allah in His Divinity or worship) in His saying: And they worship besides Allâh things that harm them not, nor profit them, and they say: “These are our intercessors with Allâh.” Say: “Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?” Glorified and Exalted is He above all that which they associate as partners (with Him)! The Ayah of Surah AlZumar reads: Verily, Allâh will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allâh guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever. He called them disbelievers and liars when they claimed that they worship them only that they may bring them near to Allah. Allah stated that they are liars in the claim that their deities bring them near to Allah, and judged them as disbelievers as they dedicate acts of worship, such as slaughtering animals, making vows, seeking relief and the like to them.

Source: Majmoo al fatwa sh ibn baz, download from

https://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/i...atawa_IbnBaz/en_01_Majmoo_alFatawa_IbnBaz.pdf


To be frank he wasn't the first to state this as MIAW makes this claim in several of works, like removal of doubts, the meaning of the testimony of faith etc .

 

[jemappelle]

In a fatwa explaining about different types of tawheed, ibn baz make the absurd claim that chrsitians worship jesus just as an intercessor and NOT because they believe that Jesus is able to harm and benefit them. This is a major scholar and a former mufti of the najdi dawah making claims denying common beliefs of christians that is known to laypeople.




Source: Majmoo al fatwa sh ibn baz, download from

https://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/i...atawa_IbnBaz/en_01_Majmoo_alFatawa_IbnBaz.pdf


To be frank he wasn't the first to state this as MIAW makes this claim in several of works, like removal of doubts, the meaning of the testimony of faith etc .

Hi I had a previous account here and I went deeper into a question you asked me which is can you seperate tawheed uluuhiyah and rububiyyah, after research I basically concluded you are right you cannot separate them in terms of saying a person cannot believe in just one, if they believe something is there God they also believe it is their rabb, I asked my salafi teachers and they agreed with me, then I done more research into dictionaries and tafaseer and used the Quran to prove anyone who believes somethign is their ilaah is also their rabb, noone in the class could refute me, My teacher also said he would ask his mashaaikh the question aswell.

Now I cringe everytime I hear a scholar say quraysh believed in tawheed rububiyyah and not uluhiyyah, bc I refuted that claim multiple times, it also makes 0 sense. Alhamduliillah I still listen to the scholars though, even if some of what they say may be wrong, 99% of what they say is beneficial

 

[El Nino]

Now coming to the discussion at hand, the current salafi dawah despite claiming adherence to the first 3 generations of muslims differs very greatly from them. The most important of these differences is their understanding of tawheed, shirk, and worship, modern day salafis follow the teachings of MIAW (mohammed abdulwahab) and not the salaf when it comes to these aspects of the deen.


A while back i made a thread discussing the major problems with regards to salafi (najdi) understanding of tawheed, you can access it here : Salafi understanding of tawheed

Salafis divide tawheed into 3 categories:
1. Tawheed of Lordship
2. Tawheed of worship
3. Tawheed of names & attributes


They claim that in order for a person's tawheed to be complete you need to have all three present and to help strengthen their case they use disbelievers as examples. According to their understanding all of mankind have affirmed tawheed of Lordship except for a few, meaning the pagans of quraysh, chrisitians, jews etc all have affirmed the Oneness of Allah's Lordship
and where they became astray was the Oneness of Allah's Worship.

Now is the above claim true ? No as we've verses from quran, hadith etc explicitly proving without a doubt that all of the above groups are guilty of shirk of Lordship. Think of the christians who worship Jesus AS as their god, the arab pagans who worshipped 360 gods, they all believed & worshipped gods other than Allah, so how can they have tawheed of Allah's Lordship.

When a muslim testifies that Allah is their only God, they're also affirming that Allah is their only Lord, the meaning of god in the shahdah also carries the meaning of Lord. So your god is also your Lord laakin in the salafi creed they've separated between the 2. In their understanding god is defined merely as the Object of Worship decoupling all the attributes of Lordship from the definition.

In all societies past and present god has been defined as a being that has power residing over nature, the creation, universe etc. To the salafis god is just the being that a person directs his/her worship to and stop at that, refusing to accept that people worship god as a result of god possessing attributes of lordship that makes them worthy of worship.

We worship Allah because He is the Lord of all existence, it is His Lordship that makes Him worthy of worship. Similarly when other gods are worshipped besides Allah, it is because the worshipper of these gods have attributed some aspects of Lordship to them and worship them as a result of this belief.

So in essence worship is a result of having a belief in Lordship, when deviation occurs in this belief this is when people start worshipping others beside Allah. What this means is that it's impossible for one to have tawheed in Allah's Lordship and worship others besides Him, the fact that one directs worship to other than Allah is an indication that they don't have tawheed in Allah's Lordship.


The claim that arab pagans, christians etc all have tawheed in Allah's Lordship is thus a false belief, if they did have this tawheed they wouldn't have worshipped anyone besides Allah.


This false belief of gaalo having tawheed of Lordship is then utilised to draw a similarity between the actions of muslims and that of gaalada. Miaw and his followers accused the muslims of his time of committing major shirk as that of arab pagans etc claiming that they were worshipping others besides Allah when they for example sought intercession of the Prophet SAW at his grave. He said that this was exactly like the actions of past mushriks and the Prophet fought them all, so he & his followers would then declare takfir on these muslim making their blood halal.

It's a lot to take in so if you got questions please feel free to ask

Thanks for this information walaal, I read your previous thread and this post. If the salafi claim that the pagans of qureysh have any sort of tawheed is true, the whole sect needs massive reformation. Very informative thread as a laymam.


If I have understood correctly, your problem with salafis is their huge misunderstanding of Tawheed, the oneness of Allah and their following of MIAWB who fought his fellow people. Personally, seeing the history of salafism and now this tawheed issue bothers me. I have liked some aspects of salafism but never really got into it. Thanks for shining light on this walaal

 

[Gaduud]

Hi I had a previous account here and I went deeper into a question you asked me which is can you seperate tawheed uluuhiyah and rububiyyah, after research I basically concluded you are right you cannot separate them in terms of saying a person cannot believe in just one, if they believe something is there God they also believe it is their rabb, I asked my salafi teachers and they agreed with me, then I done more research into dictionaries and tafaseer and used the Quran to prove anyone who believes somethign is their ilaah is also their rabb, noone in the class could refute me, My teacher also said he would ask his mashaaikh the question aswell.

Now I cringe everytime I hear a scholar say quraysh believed in tawheed rububiyyah and not uluhiyyah, bc I refuted that claim multiple times, it also makes 0 sense. Alhamduliillah I still listen to the scholars though, even if some of what they say may be wrong, 99% of what they say is beneficial

Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab wrote about the 3 Tawheeds to teach Muslims what they need to have Tawheed fully, and that they can not have any of them missing.

 

[Gaduud]

Thanks for this information walaal, I read your previous thread and this post. If the salafi claim that the pagans of qureysh have any sort of tawheed is true, the whole sect needs massive reformation. Very informative thread as a laymam.


If I have understood correctly, your problem with salafis is their huge misunderstanding of Tawheed, the oneness of Allah and their following of MIAWB who fought his fellow people. Personally, seeing the history of salafism and now this tawheed issue bothers me. I have liked some aspects of salafism but never really got into it. Thanks for shining light on this walaal

The Arabian peninsular was filled with many sects which practiced many different bidas, and they would commit blatent shirk, and so Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab produced various books refuting these sects to guide the Muslims and protect them from their evil, he furthermore formulated many books detailing Tawheed and what it is in order to protect Muslims from ever having those false beliefs ever again.

 

[jemappelle]

Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab wrote about the 3 Tawheeds to teach Muslims what they need to have Tawheed fully, and that they can not have any of them missing.

Im saying you cannot believe in tawheed rububiyah and not uluhiyah at the same time

 

[Gaduud]

Im saying you cannot believe in tawheed rububiyah and not uluhiyah at the same time

Who said you can?

 

[jemappelle]

Who said you can?

Salafi scholars, they said quraysh believed in tawheed rububiyah but were still mushriks

 

[Gaduud]

Salafi scholars, they said quraysh believed in tawheed rububiyah but were still mushriks

What is bad about that?

 

[jemappelle]

What is bad about that?

Its wrong

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Hi I had a previous account here and I went deeper into a question you asked me which is can you seperate tawheed uluuhiyah and rububiyyah, after research I basically concluded you are right you cannot separate them in terms of saying a person cannot believe in just one, if they believe something is there God they also believe it is their rabb, I asked my salafi teachers and they agreed with me, then I done more research into dictionaries and tafaseer and used the Quran to prove anyone who believes somethign is their ilaah is also their rabb, noone in the class could refute me, My teacher also said he would ask his mashaaikh the question aswell.

Now I cringe everytime I hear a scholar say quraysh believed in tawheed rububiyyah and not uluhiyyah, bc I refuted that claim multiple times, it also makes 0 sense. Alhamduliillah I still listen to the scholars though, even if some of what they say may be wrong, 99% of what they say is beneficial

I remember , Alhamdulillah that's how knowledge should be acquired you evaluate it on it's own merit. If it's sound one is either forced to accept it or reject that which goes against it.

What you just affirmed has very huge consequences for the najdi dawah, as Miaw used that separation between rububiyyah and worship to accuse muslims of his time of major shirk. Since worship is tied to rububiyyah then this means that when the actual mushriks engaged in worship of their gods besides Allah because they already had committed shirk rububiyyah.

Their deviation in Rububiyyah is what led people to worship others, so any action of worship they did be it calling to other than Allah, making dua to their gods, seeking help and benefit etc all of it was done with the belief that their gods possessed attributes of rububiyyah that made them worthy of worship.

This is why you can't make a similarity between the actions of muslims and that of gaalada, a muslim believes Allah as his/her ilah & rabb while gaalka has multiple gods/rabbs. So unless the believes of the muslim changes you can't accuse him/her of falling into shirk


Since miaw was wrong in the separation, what about his takfir ? if the foundation that formed the basis of his takfir is wrong then most certainly his takfir is invalid. The najdi dawah simply breaks down laakin how many salafi will admit that to this ? how many will say miaw made a mistake ? why do they continue to teach a false belief ?

 

[jemappelle]

I remember , Alhamdulillah that's how knowledge should be acquired you evaluate it on it's own merit. If it's sound one is either forced to accept it or reject that which goes against it.

What you just affirmed has very huge consequences for the najdi dawah, as Miaw used that separation between rububiyyah and worship to accuse muslims of his time of major shirk. Since worship is tied to rububiyyah then this means that when the actual mushriks engaged in worship of their gods besides Allah because they already had committed shirk rububiyyah.

Their deviation in Rububiyyah is what led people to worship others, so any action of worship they did be it calling to other than Allah, making dua to their gods, seeking help and benefit etc all of it was done with the belief that their gods possessed attributes of rububiyyah that made them worthy of worship.

This is why you can't make a similarity between the actions of muslims and that of gaalada, a muslim believes Allah as his/her ilah & rabb while gaalka has multiple gods/rabbs. So unless the believes of the muslim changes you can't accuse him/her of falling into shirk


Since miaw was wrong in the separation, what about his takfir ? if the foundation that formed the basis of his takfir is wrong then most certainly his takfir is invalid. The najdi dawah simply breaks down laakin how many salafi will admit that to this ? how many will say miaw made a mistake ? why do they continue to teach a false belief ?

ngl I know nothing about MIAW

 

[Gaduud]

Its wrong

How? They are kuffar but still have an aspect of Tawheed which is not full Tawheed.

 

[jemappelle]

How? They are kuffar but still have an aspect of Tawheed which is not full Tawheed.

they dont believe in tawheed rububiyyah

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Thanks for this information walaal, I read your previous thread and this post. If the salafi claim that the pagans of qureysh have any sort of tawheed is true, the whole sect needs massive reformation. Very informative thread as a laymam.


If I have understood correctly, your problem with salafis is their huge misunderstanding of Tawheed, the oneness of Allah and their following of MIAWB who fought his fellow people. Personally, seeing the history of salafism and now this tawheed issue bothers me. I have liked some aspects of salafism but never really got into it. Thanks for shining light on this walaal

I'm assuming you meant to say wrong mise ?

Without a doubt it does to change, laakin they won't admit to it simply because this would be the end of it so as to speak. Their understanding of tawheed, shirk and worship forms the core of their dawah the moment they admit their mistakes here then everything that was built on top of it simply breaks down as well forcing them to admit to a whole lot of things like invalidity of miaw's takfir, their never ending false accusations of major shirk upon muslims etc

My issue with the salafi creed as it stands is that their false understanding of tawheed, shirk and worship has and continues to force them to accuse muslims of falling into shirk thereby making takfir of them.

The dawah as is taught leads to kharijism only difference today is that those who go through with the physical manifestations of what the dawah teaches they're labelled as kharijis by fellow salafis. Laakin when the same actions were undertaken by miaw and his followers they're portrayed as spreading tawheed and fighting shirk.

It's not a coincidence that those who're the quickest to accuse muslims of shirk and bidah subscribe to a theology where the founder did exactly just that and justified their blood being shed.

Having said that not every one who subscribes to it is the same some are lenient and don't follow miaw's teaching in every aspect etc, some are completely unaware of their history and take it for granted that this is islam etc . Just take whatever that's khayr and leave the rest, you can learn tajweed, arabic etc and a whole lot more just be mindful of their theology when it comes to topics regarding tawheed, shirk etc

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

ngl I know nothing about MIAW

no worries just take the time to learn diinta. When the time comes and you're interested then do the research just like you did previously.

 

[Keep it a boqol]

no worries just take the time to learn diinta. When the time comes and you're interested then do the research just like you did previously.

Do you agree with YQs denouncing “salafi” dawah?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Do you agree with YQs denouncing “salafi” dawah?

It was about time tbh, he outgrew the movement as it was creating serious concerns for him in how he should deal with fellow muslims who didn't follow the dawah. Imagine if you're being taught to view other muslims of falling into shirk or simply as ahlu bidah how do you think it's going to turn out. I believe that he mentions that one of the major turning points for him was the rise of isis as he knows that they were citing miaw's books & other najdi works of his follower to justify their actions. Meaning they had precedence for their actions taken directly from miaw & his followers which YQ was too familiar with, he simply just ignored them when he subscribed to salafi dawah.

When faced with such realisations it's only natural to come the conclusions that one has to distance themselves from it. This is what he has done and boy do the salafis hate him for him, i believe he's the only major salafi da'ee to ever publicly announce he left it while at the same time refuted the dawah.

He has another lecture where he goes in detail regarding where the salafi dawah went wrong. It's called On the najdi dawah, it's on youtube laakin waa 3hr long

 

[Gaduud]

@AdoonkaAlle Follow back rq