Hypocrisy at its finest

[KillStreakIsCool]

btw, @Jimmer , you can save time by bringing the verse you are referring to for discussion. that way you don't get into a bind explaining words you throw out randomly. Words have meanings and when it comes to Islam, it has solid argument for everything it teaches. Nobody won before against it who was intellectually honest. That doesn't mean people who disagreed with something Islamic accepted Islam. But the point remains that when it comes to Islam defending positions it takes on issues of justice, honesty, integrity, modesty, war and peace, generosity, laws etc, It can defend itself pretty good. Islam also has the best argument for God to exist.

Just bring the verse you are referencing and let us bring views and interpretations from Islamic sources. Let us see what trusted Muslims say first. Then argue against their position. That is fair I think and saves time.

 

[Mozart]

btw, @Jimmer , you can save time by bringing the verse you are referring to for discussion. that way you don't get into a bind explaining words you throw out randomly. Words have meanings and when it comes to Islam, it has solid argument for everything it teaches. Nobody won before against it who was intellectually honest. That doesn't mean people who disagreed with something Islamic accepted Islam. But the point remains that when it comes to Islam defending positions it takes on issues of justice, honesty, integrity, modesty, war and peace, generosity, laws etc, It can defend itself pretty good. Islam also has the best argument for God to exist.

Just bring the verse you are referencing and let us bring views and interpretations from Islamic sources. Let us see what trusted Muslims say first. Then argue against their position. That is fair I think and saves time.

I don’t think it’s a question of what verses explicitly mention patriarchy but rather what laws/rules are in place. For example, the testimony of a woman is worth half of that of a man, women receive less inheritance, more power to men in divorce and after a certain age I think custody goes to the dad or the dad’s father.

I think these laws undoubtedly show the characteristics of a religion where more power is given to men.

 

[Leeban]

Immoral people have no logical consistency, they have no integrity

 

[Yoobudy]

op for the sake of your mental health I would avoid twitter

 

[Reformed J]

Can you bring a scripture from the Quran or Authentic saying of the prophet pbuh that state: "A woman's word is less worthy than a man's", Or "Men and women are not Equal in the eyes of Allah".

Surah Al-Baqarah, verse 282

Testimony of two women is worth the testimony of one man.

Having matriarchy as a system doesn't mean these tribes and communities are using lineage through mothers. Matriarchy has specific meanings relative to the locals and about six communities today throughout the globe still apply more or less such system. Most of these are not using the system for tracking lineage but for other communal and cultural priorities that make women the head of the tribe, community or favor them with something specific. This include some Islamic communities in the far east Asia.

These groups were matrilineal, they traced descent through the mother. I don't know what you're talking about.

Yes, there is clear Scripture that tells Muslims to refer to people by their father's names. This had been the tradition of mankind through-out the ages and Islam being the religion of all prophets, fundamentals haven't changed with time. There is a father and a mother, a marriage between the two. All monotheistic religions taught so. And prophets existed through-out history.

Evidence that patrilineal lineage has been the tradition through all time?

 

[Basra]

Here is a prime example of a stupid sjw, blm xalimo.. Toxic feminism corrupts the mind, erodes the intelligence and it also leads one to become a hypocrite.

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

I don’t think it’s a question of what verses explicitly mention patriarchy but rather what laws/rules are in place. For example, the testimony of a woman is worth half of that of a man, women receive less inheritance, more power to men in divorce and after a certain age I think custody goes to the dad or the dad’s father.

I think these laws undoubtedly show the characteristics of a religion where more power is given to men.

Words have meanings so when someone makes a blanket statement or explicit statement about something Islamic, they must provide support from the Islamic scripture to back up their statement. @Jimmer alleged a woman's word is less worthy than a man's word according to Islam. He needs to provide the Scripture that states that to back-up the claim. If you and him admit there might not be such clear Scripture, then clarify what you have in mind and be specific.

As for your statement that a woman's witness is worth half of a man, it is not accurate. The verse you have in mind(assuming you put the time in to study the issue) doesn't state a woman's witness is half a man. It is a derived meaning by some early Quranic exegetes who used Hellenistic view of women rather than Islamic view of gender. Many scholars took a different position and disagreed with such wrong derivation that is not clearly stated in the verse. Ibnul-Qayyim and Ibu Taymiyah being in the group who object to such wrong derivation.

According to majority of Islamic Scholars, a woman's testimony is more valid than a man's testimony in matters women are more knowledgeable. Think about that for a second. This is how Islam works saxib. The verse in question you and @Jimmer allude to addresses recording of a transaction where at the time of revelation, women weren't widely engaged in business so a woman could still be a witness on the transaction and bring along another woman for back-up. The verse also suggests and not commands.

People should study issue more before they feel confident to throw around their opinions based on unfounded or ill-advised sources.

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

Surah Al-Baqarah, verse 282

Testimony of two women is worth the testimony of one man.



These groups were matrilineal, they traced descent through the mother. I don't know what you're talking about.



Evidence that patrilineal lineage has been the tradition through all time?

See my reply to Mozart. Also, the verse doesn't say a woman's word is worth less. That is your statement on the verse. As far as the matriarchy subject, I said my piece and there is no value in the subject as human beings are patriarchal in their majority and had been for a good rational reason. I don't see a merit for arguing people changing their lineage. But people are free to entertain illogical positions.

And yes, monotheistic religions which are as Old as humans themselves taught lineage through fathers. I mentioned the reasoning behind that. A man can be shared but a woman can not. And considering the multiple partners some tribal women engage in, that doesn't make their ways rational.

 

[Reformed J]

See my reply to Mozart. Also, the verse doesn't say a woman's word is worth less. That is your statement on the verse. As far as the matriarchy subject, I said my piece and there is no value in the subject as human beings are patriarchal in their majority and had been for a good rational reason. I don't see a merit for arguing people changing their lineage. But people are free to entertain illogical positions.

And yes, monotheistic religions which are as Old as humans themselves taught lineage through fathers. I mentioned the reasoning behind that. A man can be shared but a woman can not. And considering the multiple partners some tribal women engage in, that doesn't make their ways rational.

You're being dishonest.

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

Pseudoscience babble. A lot of human organization is innate like other animals.

What about conscience? It is unique to humans. Also, evolutionary biology have little to say about the ability of a species like man to have conscience produced by a piece of soft flesh made out of protein strung together in certain set up. Interesting huh?

I suspect you studied the subject, share if you ran into new in sights into solving the long standing mysteries of conscience in biology.

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

You're being dishonest.

A cop out. Very classic brother. Come on, do some more search and study the subject more. The fun part of facing challenges, and this goes for me as well, is to read both for and against arguments on positions of Islam. It is good for one's faith, - at least those who like to question things and understand, - to study and read all arguments on an issue. Faith grows always with strong conviction, and Islam takes the position that believers should be educated in what they are getting into. The excuse to object to Islam because forefathers objected to it is shot down as much as following blindly the footsteps of others is looked down upon as risky. Shaydaan will always scheme against human beings to cause them to renege on their promises to worship God.

 

[Reformed J]

What about conscience? It is unique to humans. Also, evolutionary biology have little to say about the ability of a species like man to have conscience produced by a piece of soft flesh made out of protein strung together in certain set up. Interesting huh?

I suspect you studied the subject, share if you ran into new in sights into solving the long standing mysteries of conscience in biology.

Consciousness is not unique to humans.

 

[Reformed J]

A cop out. Very classic brother. Come on, do some more search and study the subject more. The fun part of facing challenges, and this goes for me as well, is to read both for and against arguments on positions of Islam. It is good for one's faith, at least those who like to question things and understand, - to study and read all arguments on an issue. Faith grows always with strong conviction, and Islam takes the position that believers should be educated in what they are getting into. The excuse to object to Islam because forefathers objected to it is shot down as much as following blindly the footsteps of others is looked down upon as risky. Shaydaan will always scheme against human beings to cause them to renege on their promises to worship God.

I asked for evidence you haven't provided any. "Trust me I know" isn't evidence.

And the verse clearly says in lieu of 2 males's testimony being absent and only 1 man is present then 2 women are needed to replace the 1 man's testimony.

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

Consciousness is not unique to humans.

Update me on the latest bro. I can always read stuff on my down-time.

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

I asked for evidence you haven't provided any. "Trust me I know" isn't evidence.

And the verse clearly says in lieu of 2 males's testimony being absent and only 1 man is present then 2 women are needed to replace the 1 man's testimony.

I didn't say trust me but provided the source of your misrepresentation of the verse(a source that includes early Quranic Exegetes who verbatim quoted Greek and Hellenistic view of gender to justify their bias against women in deriving similar meaning to yours). Your statements are not what the verse says. Does the verse say: Words of a female is worth less? No. Does the verse dictate general rule for witness? No. This is a particular issue about transaction recording at the time of revelation and Muslim Scholars in their majority understood that a woman's testimony is not half of a man. As I stated, a woman's testimony they said is even more valid than a man's testimony on areas where a woman or women have more knowledge.

This view of Majority Islam allowed women to play a crucial role in narrating the Prophet's words directly to Muslims. The requirement for hadith narration includes Integrity(having the character to be a witness to the hadeeth), and because Earlier Muslims including the Companions of the prophet understood this, they sought the advise and the knowledge of women Aisha being at the top. If Islam makes a woman's narration from the Prophet part of the foundation of Islam, her word being acceptable by Muslims, then what people say who are naturally inclined to disbelief is just a non-starter. With that said, I am willing to entertain you saxib.

 

[Reformed J]

I didn't say trust me but provided the source of your misrepresentation of the verse(a source that includes early Quranic Exegetes who verbatim quoted Greek and Hellenistic view of gender to justify their bias against women in deriving similar meaning to yours). Your statements are not what the verse says. Does the verse say: Words of a female is worth less? No. Does the verse dictate general rule for witness? No. This is a particular issue about transaction recording at the time of revelation and Muslim Scholars in their majority understood that a woman's testimony is not half of a man. As I stated, a woman's testimony they said is even more valid than a man's testimony on areas where a woman or women have more knowledge.

This view of Majority Islam allowed women to play a crucial role in narrating the Prophet's words directly to Muslims. The requirement for hadith narration includes Integrity(having the character to be a witness to the hadeeth), and because Earlier Muslims including the Companions of the prophet understood this, they sought the advise and the knowledge of women Aisha being at the top. If Islam makes a woman's narration from the Prophet part of the foundation of Islam, her word being acceptable by Muslims, then what people say who are naturally inclined to disbelief is just a non-starter. With that said, I am willing to entertain you saxib.

Nope, I asked for evidence towards your patrilineality claims.

Not in regards to the woman's testimony being less than a man's testimony. The quran 2:282 is clear about that.

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

Nope, I asked for evidence towards your patrilineality claims.

Not in regards to the woman's testimony being less than a man's testimony. The quran 2:282 is clear about that.

We are cool then if the Quran is what you agree with. That means you gave up your own derived meaning of the verse that is different from what the verse says. You also gave up other claims you made about Quran and women.

As for patrilineality, you are the evidence and the product of long standing patriarchy. What else do you need? Get a map and look at it to see how many places you can put your finger on for a location where new babies trace their lineage through their moms.

I am all for convo if you like exchanges on the forum with me. I am killing time myself, so we are on the same boat. Fire away. At least , in full disclosure, am getting paid some top dollars teaching you new concepts sitting in fancy cubicle with the biggest glass window that gives me a beautiful view of pretty women jogging or walking outside.

 

[Reformed J]

As for patrilineality, you are the evidence and the product of long standing patriarchy. What else do you need? Get a map and look at it to see how many places you can put your finger on for a location where new babies trace their lineage through their moms.

Nonsense.

As you said previously:

Yes, there is clear Scripture that tells Muslims to refer to people by their father's names. This had been the tradition of mankind through-out the ages and Islam being the religion of all prophets, fundamentals haven't changed with time. There is a father and a mother, a marriage between the two. All monotheistic religions taught so. And prophets existed through-out history.

It's a weak argument. In Islam the Prophets taught tawheed toward the people they were sent. However when Prophet Mohammed was asked about observance towards a Jewish holiday, he said it was only sent to them and not muslims. Different rules were giving to different people. Forgot about evolutionary biology/anthropology, this isn't a weak religious argument.

I am all for convo if you like exchanges on the forum with me. I am killing time myself, so we are on the same boat. Fire away. At least , in full disclosure, am getting paid some top dollars teaching you new concepts sitting in fancy cubicle with the biggest glass window that gives me a beautiful view of pretty women jogging or walking outside.

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[KillStreakIsCool]

Nonsense.

As you said previously:



It's a weak argument. In Islam the Prophets taught tawheed toward the people they were sent. However when Prophet Mohammed was asked about observance towards a Jewish holiday, he said it was only sent to them and not muslims. Different rules were giving to different people. Forgot about evolutionary biology/anthropology, this isn't a weak religious argument.

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You are a little off on the commonality between monotheistic religions. Allah said to each was given methodology and law but at the same time Ordered Muslims to follow the footsteps of those before them who followed their prophets correctly. So, monotheistic belief is common factor but laws and methodology of practice can be and are different. You recall or can pull up scripture where the Quran states that Islam is not a new religion but a completion of what was established before(in religions/books)) and one that corrects past man made mistakes introduced into these prior monotheistic religions. Islam then becomes universal espousing both the past foundational monotheistic teachings and introduces new and applicable laws universal to all mankind till the day of judgement. In essence, every past prophet and their followers are Muslims and believers as the word Islam means submission to the will of Allah among other meanings it has like peace-within-oneself.

Anyway, you are cool. Sounds like you have read few things hahahahaha.


As for promotion delayed or waiting to bounce on your next chance to a better paying Job, good luck brother. How much money is enough is subjective and the answer depends on the person and what they think is enough. For us Qaxootis, money we earn is not only for us to spend but to share with others, more is better always. But I say for a single young male or female, with college degree, 50K is cool.

 

[Prettymuslim94]

The girl seeking marriage is about to turn 18 walaal.. And they are mocking her for wishing to have a halal relationship. I don't understand how some of these people actually can call themselves muslims and shun anything islamic while promoting non islamic practices.

She should ignore them and get married