When did it happen?
Why couldn't a single muslim country be in top 25 best countries for women?
- Thread starter Steamdevolopment
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When did it happen?
ISLAM IS FUCKED, i am a muslim just by name, it's an cultural identity for me really, i don't really give a f*ck about religion, i am all about the NOW and making the most of this one life i am certain about.
Nomad2054
There is nothing permanent except change.
@Steamdevolopment
excuse me steam i thought we were discussing islams oppression of women based on facts and not opinions!! so what do you mean defend your own ideas and how do you suggestion i defend my ideas on a faith i did not help create?
you acknowledge it in passing lool, so tell me which of the rights below did western women enjoy prior to the 19th century?
basic freedoms
the right to Education and work
Inheritance rights
the right to marry or divorce
the right to vote
equal rights to men in both religious and social duties.
the only the right i accredit to west is the sexual freedom act, that came about during the sexual revolution in the 1960s and Abortion rights followed, so what "modern" rights are you talking about other than the two previously mentioned?
"permission to beat wives"
this is what it states,
[wives] from whom you fear arrogance-
[first] advise them;
[then if they persist], forsake them in bed;
[finally], strike them.
there is three step to this process its not like the man has the right to just come home and lunge at his wife lool, but how many times has the Prophet Mohhamed scw hit his many wives? answers = 0 times capiche.
"permission for female concubines"
the verse you quoted disproves your own assessment, here re read it.
also prohibited to you are all married women except those your right hands possess, And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise
explanation - you have the right to marry your female slaves and all other women except for those that are already married, based on a mutual agreement where the man also has to provide gifts to the bride to be.
"women are inferior"
Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want.
explanation- there are two kinds of Iddah,
(three periods 3months) the purpose is to ensure that the male parent of any offspring produced after the cessation of a nikah (marriage) would be known.
(in case of pregnancy 9months) the Iddah would lasts until after the women gives birth.
i would like to ask you two questions
1: what dignified women in her right mind would immediately re marry after a divorce.
2:what self respecting women would share a bed with a man while bearing the child of another?
"a woman's deficiency"
the charges of these claims are the following:
1) the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you women?
(reason) You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands!!
2) I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you?
(reason) A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you! any woman with an ounce of intelligence knows this to be true.
3) Women are deficient in their intelligence and religion?
(reason) the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man, This is the deficiency in her intelligence.
fyi (the majority of scholars hold that the testimony of women alone is acceptable. But the number of women witnesses needed is debated in different Islamic schools of law. Hanafi's and Hanbali's see even one woman enough. According to Maliki's two women are required. As for Shafii's, they see that 4 women are needed)
"Prophet decries female leadership"
The Qur’an contains verses that appear to support the role of women in politics, such as its mention of the Queen of Sheba, who represented a ruler who consulted with and made important decisions on behalf of her people. Further, the Hadith provides numerous examples of women having public leadership roles. Muhammad’s first wife Khadija bint Khuwaylid was his chief adviser as well as his first and foremost supporter. His third wife Aisha Abu Bakr, a well-known authority in medicine, history, and rhetoric, often accompanied the Prophet to battles, even leading an army at the Battle of the Camel.[1] However, it is also within the context of this battle that a famous hadith is ascribed to Muhammad where he says "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler, However, contemporary scholars have cast doubt on the authenticity of this Hadith, citing the odd timing of the Hadith's first release, its contradiction with the verses of the Quran, and the most likely use of the Hadith for a specific person at the time (Queen of Persia) rather than as a general rule or advice.
America is yet to vote in a women into the oval office and Denmark voted in its first Female prime minister Helle Thorning Schmidt in 2011.
where as in these regressive muslim nations where women are oppressed, have had the following female heads of state, some even as early as 1988.
Pakistan: Prime minister Benazir Bhutto
Indonesian: President Megawati Sukarnoputri
Turkey: Prime Minister Tansu Ciller
Senegal: Prime Minister Mame Madior Boye
Bangladesh: Prime Ministers Begum Khaleda Zia
Iran: Vice President Masoumeh Ebtekar
Mali: president Cissé Mariam Kaïdama Sidibé
Kosovo: President Atifete Jahjaga
President of Mauritius: Bibi Ameenah Firdaus Gurib Fakim
President of Singapore: Halimah Yacob
this is why Islamophobes always focus on Middle east when discussing islam and you tow the line behind your "intellectual" superiors (gaalo)
you repeated domestic violence twice i already addressed that issue, and i will ask you once more can you provide one instance where the Prophet raised his hands to any of his wives, prove that and kill this debate here an now instead repeating it over and over!!!!!
fun fact:
Denmark has the worst record of the Nordic countries for female representation in senior ministerial roles: At the end of 2014, only 30% of its senior ministers were women. According to Bloomberg, Thorning-Schmidt has also failed to follow through on her campaign promises to split parental leave more evenly between mothers and fathers, and to require corporate boards to have female directors.
put that in your danish pipe and smoke it kvinde.
excuse me steam i thought we were discussing islams oppression of women based on facts and not opinions!! so what do you mean defend your own ideas and how do you suggestion i defend my ideas on a faith i did not help create?
you acknowledge it in passing lool, so tell me which of the rights below did western women enjoy prior to the 19th century?
basic freedoms
the right to Education and work
Inheritance rights
the right to marry or divorce
the right to vote
equal rights to men in both religious and social duties.
the only the right i accredit to west is the sexual freedom act, that came about during the sexual revolution in the 1960s and Abortion rights followed, so what "modern" rights are you talking about other than the two previously mentioned?
"permission to beat wives"
this is what it states,
[wives] from whom you fear arrogance-
[first] advise them;
[then if they persist], forsake them in bed;
[finally], strike them.
there is three step to this process its not like the man has the right to just come home and lunge at his wife lool, but how many times has the Prophet Mohhamed scw hit his many wives? answers = 0 times capiche.
"permission for female concubines"
the verse you quoted disproves your own assessment, here re read it.
also prohibited to you are all married women except those your right hands possess, And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise
explanation - you have the right to marry your female slaves and all other women except for those that are already married, based on a mutual agreement where the man also has to provide gifts to the bride to be.
"women are inferior"
Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want.
explanation- there are two kinds of Iddah,
(three periods 3months) the purpose is to ensure that the male parent of any offspring produced after the cessation of a nikah (marriage) would be known.
(in case of pregnancy 9months) the Iddah would lasts until after the women gives birth.
i would like to ask you two questions
1: what dignified women in her right mind would immediately re marry after a divorce.
2:what self respecting women would share a bed with a man while bearing the child of another?
"a woman's deficiency"
the charges of these claims are the following:
1) the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you women?
(reason) You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands!!
2) I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you?
(reason) A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you! any woman with an ounce of intelligence knows this to be true.
3) Women are deficient in their intelligence and religion?
(reason) the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man, This is the deficiency in her intelligence.
fyi (the majority of scholars hold that the testimony of women alone is acceptable. But the number of women witnesses needed is debated in different Islamic schools of law. Hanafi's and Hanbali's see even one woman enough. According to Maliki's two women are required. As for Shafii's, they see that 4 women are needed)
"Prophet decries female leadership"
The Qur’an contains verses that appear to support the role of women in politics, such as its mention of the Queen of Sheba, who represented a ruler who consulted with and made important decisions on behalf of her people. Further, the Hadith provides numerous examples of women having public leadership roles. Muhammad’s first wife Khadija bint Khuwaylid was his chief adviser as well as his first and foremost supporter. His third wife Aisha Abu Bakr, a well-known authority in medicine, history, and rhetoric, often accompanied the Prophet to battles, even leading an army at the Battle of the Camel.[1] However, it is also within the context of this battle that a famous hadith is ascribed to Muhammad where he says "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler, However, contemporary scholars have cast doubt on the authenticity of this Hadith, citing the odd timing of the Hadith's first release, its contradiction with the verses of the Quran, and the most likely use of the Hadith for a specific person at the time (Queen of Persia) rather than as a general rule or advice.
America is yet to vote in a women into the oval office and Denmark voted in its first Female prime minister Helle Thorning Schmidt in 2011.
where as in these regressive muslim nations where women are oppressed, have had the following female heads of state, some even as early as 1988.
Pakistan: Prime minister Benazir Bhutto
Indonesian: President Megawati Sukarnoputri
Turkey: Prime Minister Tansu Ciller
Senegal: Prime Minister Mame Madior Boye
Bangladesh: Prime Ministers Begum Khaleda Zia
Iran: Vice President Masoumeh Ebtekar
Mali: president Cissé Mariam Kaïdama Sidibé
Kosovo: President Atifete Jahjaga
President of Mauritius: Bibi Ameenah Firdaus Gurib Fakim
President of Singapore: Halimah Yacob
this is why Islamophobes always focus on Middle east when discussing islam and you tow the line behind your "intellectual" superiors (gaalo)
you repeated domestic violence twice i already addressed that issue, and i will ask you once more can you provide one instance where the Prophet raised his hands to any of his wives, prove that and kill this debate here an now instead repeating it over and over!!!!!
fun fact:
Denmark has the worst record of the Nordic countries for female representation in senior ministerial roles: At the end of 2014, only 30% of its senior ministers were women. According to Bloomberg, Thorning-Schmidt has also failed to follow through on her campaign promises to split parental leave more evenly between mothers and fathers, and to require corporate boards to have female directors.
put that in your danish pipe and smoke it kvinde.
Last edited:
Steamdevolopment
VIP
Frame of the debate:
The frame of the debate is two fold, by focusing first on what the Islamic scriptures says, and secondly on how they are authentically practiced.
By defending your own ideas I merely request for you to make the arguments that you find to be rationally convincing yourself, rather than re-direct to a video.
Western freedoms:
As it currently standards Western freedoms for women include
1) Equal inheritance, not just inheritance right
2) Equal custody, under most Islamic laws the father has custody regardless
3) Sexual freedom that relates both to being able to have sex and not be stoned, no obsession with purity tests
4) Marital freedom to marry whomever they want muslim or non-muslim
5) Not needing male guardians for any purpose
6) Forbidding polygamy so the husband can't enter into another marriage against the woman's will
7) For queer women it includes a ban against sexuality-based discrimination across the board
8) Unilateral divorce power
Most other freedoms fundamental freedoms that protect women are also ones men enjoy, and some are mentioned below.
1) Privacy rights, human rights convention article 8, that forbids invasion in privat life limiting the effect of morality laws, and build the family they want.
2) Freedom of religion, which under the human rights convention includes freedom from religion
3) Freedom from degrading, inhumane treatment, and torture under article 3, which includes FGM, virginity tests, and even a positive obligation for the state to prosecute domestic violence.
The debates is no longer about the 19th century, where conditions were comparable or even worse than Arabia.The debate is now why have Islam fallen behind since the 20th century, and how can Islam claim to be egalitarian when it clearly does gender-based discrimination as mentioned above.
Domestic violence:
You do not get it do you? The problem isn't wether there is procedural motions to follow before beating your wife, but instead the fundamental moral question of do men have the right to beat a woman?
If the answer to that because yes, and which it does after Islamic law and the Quran, then domestic violence has been divinely commanded.
I had at least hopes that you would have found a contradictory interpretation as made by modern scholars who see this verse for the evil it is.
Female sex slaves and the Prophet:
The Quran makes direct reference to sex slaves, not marriages to them. The verse in Quran 4: 34, says that for men are forbidden married women expect those that are previously married and now sex slaves. This is made even more clear by the Quran 23: 6, in which is says that they should guard their privates "Except from their wives or those their right hands possess." Thereby making an even more clear distinction that one category are wives and the other is possessed humans meaning sex slaves.
Secondly, what you're referring are hadiths in which marriage with sex slaves are encouraged but the arguments that a sex slaves can consent to anything including marriage is mute.
By example if your father was killed by Christian Crusaders, you mother was brought to a Christian foreign land and was now the legal property of the Christian warrior with no means to get home and no support system to speak, would you consider a marriage proposition under those circumstances to be valid consent?
The answer is clearly no, consent requires you to being free and having choice, and a enslaved property has neither choice nor are they free.
The facts are that at least two of the Prophet's wives were sex slaves and their names were Rayhana bint Zayd and Maria al-Qibtiyya.
Quranic contradictions and female role in Islam:
Status of women testimony:
The Quran 2: 228 clearly states that for financial document that two men equal one man's testimony, and the Surat specifically says so that the other woman remind the one that errs on the wrong side.
Legally the debate is not wether a woman's testimony is deficient but only to what degree, but as it is practiced in most of the islamic world a woman's testimony counts for less in either financial matters or in all matters.
Partial list:
Bahrain (in Sharia courts)
Egypt (in family courts
Iran (in most cases)
Iraq (in some cases)
Jordan (in Sharia courts)
Kuwait (in family courts)
Libya (in some cases)
Morocco (in family cases)
Palestine (in cases related to marriage, divorce and child custody)
Qatar (in family law matters)
Saudi Arabia
Syria (in Sharia courts)[
United Arab Emirates (in some civil matters)
Yemen (not allowed to testify at all in cases of adultery and retribution)
Deficiencies:
The notion itself is sexist and lends credence to patriarchal mindset about women. Women aren't deficiency and the Prophet is wrong for making such an assertion.
It is based on
1) "He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Sahih Bukhari 1:6.301.
Here the Prophet is basically claiming that women are intelligent deficient because Islamic law dictates that one man's word is worth two women. Logically consistent if it wasn't for the fact that there is no rational for the evidentiary law to begin withBTW what a FEMINIST, @Knowles
Sahih Bukhari 1:6.301.
2) "A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you."
Men can lead women astray too yet no comment about them, I guess anything to uphold the patriarchy
Sahih Bukhari 1:6.301.
3) Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler.
I guess Germany, Norway, New Zealand do not exist. The Prophet is categorically wrong on this point.
Sahih Bukhari Book 92, Hadith 50:
Female leadership and female rights:
It is counter-factual to argue that Denmark or the USA are worse countries for women than Pakistan or Iran. There a clear distinction between a country having female leaders and having high degree of equality and women's right, it is a false correlation to make.
We have empirical evidence across different categories that shows that despite female leadership Islamic countries lack behind in rights, equality and opportunities for women, LGBT, minorities ect.
Maybe you should begin addressing those and not excuse it or pretend the status qou is just.
Steamdevolopment
VIP
@Steamdevolopment
excuse me steam i thought we were discussing islams oppression of women based on facts and not opinions!! so what do you mean defend your own ideas and how do you suggestion i defend my ideas on a faith i did not help create?
you acknowledge it in passing lool, so tell me which of the rights below did western women enjoy prior to the 19th century?
basic freedoms
the right to Education and work
Inheritance rights
the right to marry or divorce
the right to vote
equal rights to men in both religious and social duties.
the only the right i accredit to west is the sexual freedom act, that came about during the sexual revolution in the 1960s and Abortion rights followed, so what "modern" rights are you talking about other than the two previously mentioned?
"permission to beat wives"
this is what it states,
[wives] from whom you fear arrogance-
[first] advise them;
[then if they persist], forsake them in bed;
[finally], strike them.
there is three step to this process its not like the man has the right to just come home and lunge at his wife lool, but how many times has the Prophet Mohhamed scw hit his many wives? answers = 0 times capiche.
"permission for female concubines"
the verse you quoted disproves your own assessment, here re read it.
also prohibited to you are all married women except those your right hands possess, And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise
explanation - you have the right to marry your female slaves and all other women except for those that are already married, based on a mutual agreement where the man also has to provide gifts to the bride to be.
"women are inferior"
Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want.
explanation- there are two kinds of Iddah,
(three periods 3months) the purpose is to ensure that the male parent of any offspring produced after the cessation of a nikah (marriage) would be known.
(in case of pregnancy 9months) the Iddah would lasts until after the women gives birth.
i would like to ask you two questions
1: what dignified women in her right mind would immediately re marry after a divorce.
2:what self respecting women would share a bed with a man while bearing the child of another?
"a woman's deficiency"
the charges of these claims are the following:
1) the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you women?
(reason) You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands!!
2) I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you?
(reason) A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you! any woman with an ounce of intelligence knows this to be true.
3) Women are deficient in their intelligence and religion?
(reason) the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man, This is the deficiency in her intelligence.
fyi (the majority of scholars hold that the testimony of women alone is acceptable. But the number of women witnesses needed is debated in different Islamic schools of law. Hanafi's and Hanbali's see even one woman enough. According to Maliki's two women are required. As for Shafii's, they see that 4 women are needed)
"Prophet decries female leadership"
The Qur’an contains verses that appear to support the role of women in politics, such as its mention of the Queen of Sheba, who represented a ruler who consulted with and made important decisions on behalf of her people. Further, the Hadith provides numerous examples of women having public leadership roles. Muhammad’s first wife Khadija bint Khuwaylid was his chief adviser as well as his first and foremost supporter. His third wife Aisha Abu Bakr, a well-known authority in medicine, history, and rhetoric, often accompanied the Prophet to battles, even leading an army at the Battle of the Camel.[1] However, it is also within the context of this battle that a famous hadith is ascribed to Muhammad where he says "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler, However, contemporary scholars have cast doubt on the authenticity of this Hadith, citing the odd timing of the Hadith's first release, its contradiction with the verses of the Quran, and the most likely use of the Hadith for a specific person at the time (Queen of Persia) rather than as a general rule or advice.
America is yet to vote in a women into the oval office and Denmark voted in its first Female prime minister Helle Thorning Schmidt in 2011.
where as in these regressive muslim nations where women are oppressed, have had the following female heads of state, some even as early as 1988.
Pakistan: Prime minister Benazir Bhutto
Indonesian: President Megawati Sukarnoputri
Turkey: Prime Minister Tansu Ciller
Senegal: Prime Minister Mame Madior Boye
Bangladesh: Prime Ministers Begum Khaleda Zia
Iran: Vice President Masoumeh Ebtekar
Mali: president Cissé Mariam Kaïdama Sidibé
Kosovo: President Atifete Jahjaga
President of Mauritius: Bibi Ameenah Firdaus Gurib Fakim
President of Singapore: Halimah Yacob
this is why Islamophobes always focus on Middle east when discussing islam and you tow the line behind your "intellectual" superiors (gaalo)
you repeated domestic violence twice i already addressed that issue, and i will ask you once more can you provide one instance where the Prophet raised his hands to any of his wives, prove that and kill this debate here an now instead repeating it over and over!!!!!
fun fact:
Denmark has the worst record of the Nordic countries for female representation in senior ministerial roles: At the end of 2014, only 30% of its senior ministers were women. According to Bloomberg, Thorning-Schmidt has also failed to follow through on her campaign promises to split parental leave more evenly between mothers and fathers, and to require corporate boards to have female directors.
Irrelevant questions:
1: What dignified women in her right mind would immediately re marry after a divorce.
The very assumption that woman has to be dignified or that being dignified can be tied to the waiting period after divorce is a false dichotomy and a loaded question.Instead the question should be what rational and legitimate reason would a woman have to remarry quickly after divorce?
It could be due to the fact that she fell in love with another man and want to build a life with him, it could be the fact she wishes to be provided for or intimacy with another person maybe after having been deprived of it for a longer period, it could be as means to stabilize her life and reverse her perceived downwards trajectory.
2: What self respecting women would share a bed with a man while bearing the child of another?
Again that is a loaded question. Perhaps a woman who have not had a satisfying marriage and finds it for the first time, perhaps as a mean to get over an abusive relationship or again to change perceived downwards trajectory and stabilizing her life for the future child.
Muji
VIP
@Steamdevolopment if we established that Somali men still go on to be sexist even when they leave Islam what will you gain from this? These faraxs will go from sexist Muslims as you say to sexist atheists. They will form the same conclusions but from different angles.
You should focus your efforts on getting your DMs back. You’re an important contributor they can’t treat you this way.
You should focus your efforts on getting your DMs back. You’re an important contributor they can’t treat you this way.
Nomad2054
There is nothing permanent except change.
@Knowles
@Steamdevolopment
yall aint gotta tell me twice, steam no hard feelings. i dont mind having a brainstorming session once in a while, to make sure the thing is still working as it was made.
closure: steam muslim people mostly dont follow islam today, i would go as far as to say that muslims, have the religion but western society has the culture.
there is no compulsion in religion, so with that salam
ps i am a Feminist i mean why else would i engage a woman.
@Steamdevolopment
yall aint gotta tell me twice, steam no hard feelings. i dont mind having a brainstorming session once in a while, to make sure the thing is still working as it was made.
closure: steam muslim people mostly dont follow islam today, i would go as far as to say that muslims, have the religion but western society has the culture.
there is no compulsion in religion, so with that salam
ps i am a Feminist i mean why else would i engage a woman.
Steamdevolopment
VIP
Muslim atheist or those who apply rational principles consistently are much more likely to be pro feminisme/LGBT/minorities ect.
The goal is not for them to leave Islam but re-evaluate their beliefs by forcing them to defend the indefensible and thereby opening a dialog about change and from there better conditions for women.
It took Europe almost 200 year from the enlightment to the female vote, and we therefore have to be patient.
Have you not noticed the Islamist that were fighting me a few pages before now left? That is change, an admission that they either do not have enough knowledge and should seek it or admit of defeat.
So basically, you cherry pick scriptures that are a mix of Islam and pre Islam(barbaric times) that every Muslim mystic knows and agree its barbaric. What else is new?
Not only is your aphoristic observation on Islam confounding, your fusillade aberrant loquaciousness thoughts on Islam is very misleading. It's not a surprise though, coming from someone who believes incest should be "normalized' despite the risks. You could have made everything simple if you just admitted all those countries were dominated by "mainstream Islam".
"Sufi islam may not have a problem with second aspect as it manifest in less stringent and oppressive ways, but the toxic ideas from the Islamic scriptures remains and therefore it deserves sceptical repetition also."
Sufis use many different scriptures mainly (spiritual/rational/logical/hermeticism/Quran). I doubt you ever met a Sufi or any other minority sect of Islam other than Sunni and Shia but your assertions are just confounding to my inattentive utterance. If you are gonna talk about Islam, talk about every sect and everything about it.
Steamdevolopment
VIP
Cherrypicking:
I'm not cherry-picking, in fact it is islamist and other muslims who are.
The basic notion is that the Quran is the direct word of God, unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore the mentioned direct quotes about approval of sex slavery, domestic violence, women's inferiority are commands for all eternity, and that becomes problematic when society has moved away from slavery and beating women, and I'm highling those aspects.
Sufi and the frame of debate:
You misunderstand, the debate is again two fold with a sceptical look towards Islamic scriptures including the Quran, and sceptical look towards islamic law as it is practiced. The latter part focuses on "main" stream Islam in majority Muslim countries, the former however looks at the Quran which applies to Sufis, and therefore the same criticism apply there.
As a Muslim, I can say, I dont believe the Quran to be the direct word of god(at least not all of it). There are many scriptures actually missing, and others added to it(that's why I say barbaric). Ask a Muslim what this means and they would call you "devil worshipper". That's how far we come from the true teachings of Islam.
Steamdevolopment
VIP
In that case the discussion is different between you and me.
It is no longer about this is what Islam says about X, Z and Y and you have to believe in it, and instead it can be a broader discussion about the value of islamic laws and to what degree it needs reform, because you can't change the unchangeable.
Do you agree with religion as basis of government?
And what do you define as true islam, and how can it be achieved if scriptures are missing?
I believe religion as basis of morality.
And what do you define as true Islam, and how can it be achieved if scriptures are missing?
True Islam is a logical Islam.
Steamdevolopment
VIP
Please enlighten me on this logical islam, how does it work and what principles govern it, and how does it manifest in real life?
Please enlighten me on this logical islam, how does it work and what principles govern it, and how does it manifest in real life?
Indeed, an uneducated flibbertigibbet person. Eclecticism my dear.
Steamdevolopment
VIP
You're literally picking and choosing, as Eclecticism is the very concept of borrowing from different sources.
Now I can see it as rational in that it makes Islam more palatable by explaining away unwanted concepts but it is basically selective reading and interpretation, and because of the inconsistency within it becomes illogical.
You're literally picking and choosing, as Eclecticism is the very concept of borrowing from different sources.
Now I can see it as rational in that it makes Islam more palatable by explaining away unwanted concepts but it is basically selective reading and interpretation, and because of the inconsistency within it becomes illogical.
Holy smokes the Imbecility is high with this one. Islam has no beginning.
god, I have wasted my time with you.
Steamdevolopment
VIP
Holy smokes the Imbecility is high with this one. Islam has no beginning.
god, I have wasted my time with you.
Depends on how you define Islam. As Islam understands itself it has been here since the beginning of time, and Torah/Bibel were expression of earlier Islam. But the islam we know starts with the of Muhammed and this the main reference point for islam in scriptures.
Let me phrase the question differently, what parts of Islam do you not believe in or subscribe to that makes you different?
Depends on how you define Islam. As Islam understands itself it has been here since the beginning of time, and Torah/Bibel were expression of earlier Islam. But the islam we know starts with the of Muhammed and this the main reference point for islam in scriptures.
I think my good pal @AussieHustler can answer this one for you. You are something else lol.
"as islam understands itself it has been here since the beginning"
@Steamdevolopment
I think my good pal @AussieHustler can answer this one for you. You are something else lol.
"as islam understands itself it has been here since the beginning"
@Steamdevolopment
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