Interesting paper comparing PL and SL's systems

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Thegoodshepherd

Galkacyo iyo Calula dhexdood
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A fairly short paper that describes the dynamics faced by both states and the role that the quest for recognition, or lack thereof, plays in creating "national" cohesion. Pages 15, 16 and 17 describe very well the problem that Puntland's political elite have been struggling with for the past 20 years. How do you build up your state while also vying for influence in Mogadishu? The authors argue that the focus of Puntland's political elite has led to them ignoring political development at home. This paper is a must read for anyone interested in the future development of federal states in Somalia. The same problems will face Jubaland, Galmudug etc... in the future.

@Boqor Quark Boqor Cisman I am starting to think that separating from Mogadishu may have been the better route for Puntland to pursue. It seems that you were right that remaining involved in the politics of the South did real damage to Puntland's project of state building.

Some excerpts:
The personal benefits of participating in the TFG were undoubtedly attractive to many of Puntland’s leaders, as they were to some Somaliland leaders; unlike Somaliland leaders, however, Puntland politicians faced little chastisement for participating, as participation was an important means of ensuring Majerten representation in the federal system. Because participation in the TFG did not depend on democratic elections, Puntland politicians had little incentive to create stronger democratic institutions back home (Dill 2010). Why subject their continued access to the TFG and its resources to democratic elections if they did not have to? The links between Puntland and the TFG effectively raised the stakes of Puntland politics without requiring democracy. The access to the TFG “conferred by holding an office in Puntland . . . [fueled] competition and political rivalry and [diminished] elite interest in good governance at home” (Dill 2010:291).

However, we argue that Puntland’s decision not to seek independence sets it apart in key ways from Somaliland and other de facto states. Using existing literature and information collected in sixty-nine formal and twenty informal interviews with businessmen, government officials, clan elders, and aid officials in Somaliland and Puntland during the summer of 2011, we demonstrate that Puntland’s continued participation in successive efforts to form a government of Somalia has complicated its local state-building endeavor by limiting support in the business community and creating incentives not to democratize. In contrast, we argue that Somaliland’s independence agenda has had a unifying effect, which encourages support in the business community and creates pressures to democratize.

From our perspective, neither international recognition nor reincorporation into a federalist Somalia is inherently preferable; arguments for both spark considerable debate (for a summary of various groups’ positions, see Ahere 2013). We simply argue that, in the short run, the decision to pursue recognition as a sovereign state has helped unify people behind the nascent state of Somaliland and created pressures for democratization; by contrast, the decision to maintain ties with Somalia has complicated Puntland’s efforts to build a strong, democratic provincial state. This is not to say that in the long run, international recognition will solve all Somaliland’s challenges, or that Somaliland could not someday reunite with Somalia, though the idea remains anathema to many; nor is it to say that Puntland will not become a more democratic province in a unified Somalia or potentially pursue its own independence.

 
Somalis and there sessionist mindsets.. uff..things get tough and they want to separate like crybabies.. we’re the most unpatriotic people in the world. We fail to realize we’re stronger together than separated.
 

Thegoodshepherd

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Somalis and there sessionist mindsets.. uff..things get tough and they want to separate like crybabies.. we’re the most unpatriotic people in the world. We fail to realize we’re stronger together than separated.


I don't think you understood what I am talking about. What I am saying is that the political leaders of Puntland should not have spent all the time and energy they had after 1998 on trying to win seats in Mogadishu. The striving for position in Mogadishu is futile because it slows down political development at home. Puntland's political elite should have stayed home and minded their own business. Puntland ignored its own interest and forgot to build institutions and democratize, things it should have accomplished in the first decade, it instead became involved in a conflict that is still going on today.
 
Thegoodshepherd Is the most interesting and unique MJ user on here one of my favorite users.


I am starting to think that separating from Mogadishu may have been the better route for Puntland to pursue.
How would the southern PL borders be drawn out would it include the Galdogob district? What about SSC?
 

Thegoodshepherd

Galkacyo iyo Calula dhexdood
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Thegoodshepherd Is the most interesting and unique MJ user on here one of my favorite users.



How would the southern PL borders be drawn out would it include the Galdogob district? What about SSC?

I don't think that secession is on the table for Puntland. What I would rather we do is reach an agreement with the federal government on sharing foreign aid. Puntland gets 20% of whatever aid Somalia receives, in exchange for leaving the politics of the south to the people of the south. The FGS has nothing it can offer Puntland at this point, and Puntland staying out of it would help take pressure off of it. The only problem with this scheme would be that the Hawiye would break any such agreement when they get the presidency next.
 
Do you just comment for the sake of commenting? Try reading the OP it isn’t complicated.

Why you triggered farm tool
My comment hurt you did it, nacas


The jist of your m8's idiotic claims backed by the most ridiculous of experiments is simple, Xamar is to blame for your problems

Give me a f*cking break, this just killed it

"the decision to maintain ties with Somalia has complicated Puntland’s efforts to build a strong, democratic provincial state"

:damn:

Like I said Go :camby:
 
Why you triggered farm tool
My comment hurt you did it, nacas


The jist of your m8's idiotic claims backed by the most ridiculous of experiments is simple, Xamar is to blame for your problems

Give me a f*cking break, this just killed it

"the decision to maintain ties with Somalia has complicated Puntland’s efforts to build a strong, democratic provincial state"

:damn:

Like I said Go :camby:

Don’t tell me this negro is the same tribe as Qayrlaawe :ftw9nwa:
 
A fairly short paper that describes the dynamics faced by both states and the role that the quest for recognition, or lack thereof, plays in creating "national" cohesion. Pages 15, 16 and 17 describe very well the problem that Puntland's political elite have been struggling with for the past 20 years. How do you build up your state while also vying for influence in Mogadishu? The authors argue that the focus of Puntland's political elite has led to them ignoring political development at home. This paper is a must read for anyone interested in the future development of federal states in Somalia. The same problems will face Jubaland, Galmudug etc... in the future.

@Boqor Quark Boqor Cisman I am starting to think that separating from Mogadishu may have been the better route for Puntland to pursue. It seems that you were right that remaining involved in the politics of the South did real damage to Puntland's project of state building.

Some excerpts:







This paper is from 4 years ago?
 

Thegoodshepherd

Galkacyo iyo Calula dhexdood
VIP
@AarLibaax

I never said that Xamar is to blame for any of Puntland's problems. Xamar has done nothing to Puntland since the fall of MSB other than interfere every once in a while in how Puntland builds foreign relations. All of Puntland's problems have been caused by ourselves.
No, the problem is that our politicians are not focused on actually building a viable democratic state because they view Puntland as a stepping stone to higher office. What I am arguing for is for Puntland to withdraw from political struggles in Xamar and instead focus entirely on Puntland. That is the lesson that is to be drawn from this paper. Focusing on your own region yields more political development than trying to recreate a Somali state. Puntland would be better off today if A/Y had stayed in Puntland in 2004.


The problem is that you are not intelligent enough to comprehend what I am putting forth. You do not have the necessary critical thinking skills with which to hold a discussion with someone like me. So, you resort to this:
:camby:
and this:

:mjlol:

It would be sad, were it not so very funny.
:drakekidding:
 
The problem is that you are not intelligent enough to comprehend what I am putting forth.

Your so full of nonsense it's almost laughable hence the use of smilies

What your putting for is seccession
It doesnt take a two bit brain to gather that.

What I am arguing for is for Puntland to withdraw from political struggles in Xamar and instead focus entirely on Puntland.

My answer remains the same stop with your bullsh*t and boor isku qaris and be brave like the Isaaq and say you want to secede.

sorry bruh bravery aint a thing you can buy
 
If Puntland focused on itself, it would have brain drained every gobols talent and converted them to Puntlanders.

People will go wears there’s Nabad and opportunity.

What pisses me off is when these politicians fail in Xamaar, they return to Puntland and get higher positions.
 
If Puntland focused on itself, it would have brain drained every gobols talent and converted them to Puntlanders.

People will go wears there’s Nabad and opportunity.

What pisses me off is when these politicians fail in Xamaar, they return to Puntland and get higher positions.

Is this Larry the ciise riyoole?:lolbron:
 

Thegoodshepherd

Galkacyo iyo Calula dhexdood
VIP
@AarLibaax I am smart enough to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time.

Thesis: Puntland should secede from Somalia to better its political situation
Antithesis: Secession weakens Puntland’s claim to foreign aid received in Mogadishu
Synthesis: Puntland should remain part of Somalia, for the time being, and develop itself to where it can declare secession and not lose much in the process

I know where my interest lies, and it is not Xamar. I wonder what Marehan will go back to once Farmaajo’s term ends in 2 years? Reminds me of Siyaad Barre having to go to Gedo during the war and leaving his heavy APCs behind because Gedo was muddy and roadless. 21 years in power and not once did it occur to the Marehan messiah to build a road in Gedo.

:meleshame::kendrickcry:
 
I am smart enough to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time.

Stop lying to yourself, your a secessionist daneeste

I wonder what Marehan will go back to once Farmaajo’s term ends in 2 years?

We will still proudly wave il_340x270.1460222463_sykr.jpg
With Xamar as our Capital &
Somalia as our country
 
@AarLibaax I am smart enough to hold two opposing thoughts at the same time.

Thesis: Puntland should secede from Somalia to better its political situation
Antithesis: Secession weakens Puntland’s claim to foreign aid received in Mogadishu
Synthesis: Puntland should remain part of Somalia, for the time being, and develop itself to where it can declare secession and not lose much in the process

I know where my interest lies, and it is not Xamar. I wonder what Marehan will go back to once Farmaajo’s term ends in 2 years? Reminds me of Siyaad Barre having to go to Gedo during the war and leaving his heavy APCs behind because Gedo was muddy and roadless. 21 years in power and not once did it occur to the Marehan messiah to build a road in Gedo.

:meleshame::kendrickcry:
I won't lie here if I was MSB I would give ny clan the short end of the stick. If other regions get development my clan gets less. If I gave 5million to Bosaso I would give less to my clan and rather have them in gaajo than a shisheeye kid in gaajo. It's messed up I know
 

DR OSMAN

AF NAAREED
VIP
We need a relationship with Mogadishu not just around foreign aid but even security and general trade links. You simply can't achieve security without some sort of political settlement and rule of law that is mutually agreed upon by all parties not just(one party) or else it will lead to them invading Puntland or causing problems by using power-hungry opposition in Puntland.

Somaliland is a little different in that respect, all it's neighbour are relatively stable and don't interfere into it's politics. Where-as SL interferes into PL politics supporting Galgala cells and Mogadishu has the galmudug boys on stand-by when it needs it. Puntland is surrounded by 'hostile' neighbors in reality and isolating ourselves won't work.
 
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