What is Somalilands argument for Independence.

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No Bashing; Derailing, Clan Slurs. I genuinely wanna know.

@draco malfoy @Shaafici @Gucci mane @Lordilord

I think you already know the arguments.

The federal government alienated northerners in the government, especially after the failed war against Ethiopia.

They then began slaughter them wholesale for expressing their discontent. The 1988 bombing was the point of no return, because it targeted innocent civilians.

About 25 years later, Somaliland is arguably safer and more stable than much of southern Somalia. There are relatively fair elections. These and the colonial claims give it a pretty strong mandate for independence.
 

BirtaanJabin

DalJecel the DhafoorQiiq
VIP
I think you already know the arguments.

The federal government alienated northerners in the government, especially after the failed war against Ethiopia.

They then began slaughter them wholesale for expressing their discontent. The 1988 bombing was the point of no return, because it targeted innocent civilians.

About 25 years later, Somaliland is arguably safer and more stable than much of southern Somalia. There are relatively fair elections. These and the colonial claims give it a pretty strong mandate for independence.
So you want to leave the people who oppressed you?
 
So you want to leave the people who oppressed you?

No one oppressed me, my family got out of the country at the right time.

:rejoice:

Alhamdullilah.

As for other landers, I have nothing but empathy and I can understand their position.

People all over somalia, not just somaliland have gotten much more dignity and honour in creating their own countries, instead of being lackeys for liars who with one breath talking about ending qabil and being against qabyalad, but in another breath stack governmental positions with their qabil and ostracize and kill for expressing any sort of discontent.
 

Lordilord

❤Somaliland❤
The legal claim to statehood has always existed since Somaliland gained its independence from England 26th of June 1960. If the union was successful Somaliland wouldn't have to use that claim.

Series of events during many years in the past lead to Somaliland completely isolating itself from Somalia.

The union itself starterd very bad. The formalities of the union treaty was not completed and disrespected by the south. Somaliland signed and passed a treaty that clearly states what rights they have going in to this union willingly. The south allocated power unfairly and went forward with their own version of the union treaty. The legal basis on which the union stands on is very questionable.

This is one of the reasons Somaliland is not brought up to international court for violating or infringing on the government of Somalia rights to Somaliland because the court would most likely indirectly recognize Somaliland's claim to statehood.

The legal claim Somaliland has is backed up by many conventions done even before Somaliland got its independence.

The Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States treaty signed at Montevideo, Uruguay, on December 26, 1933.

Charter of the United Nations, Adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, 26 June 1945.


UN Resolution on Recognition by the United Nations of the Representation of a Member State, 14 December 1950

The Convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards, also known as the “New York Arbitration Convention” or the “New York Convention 1958

UN Resolution on United Nations Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (Adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, 14 December 1960)
 
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The legal claim to statehood has always existed since Somaliland gained its independence from England 26th of June 1960.

If the union was successful Somaliland wouldn't have to use that claim. Series of events during many years in the past lead to Somaliland completely isolating itself from Somalia.

The union itself starterd very bad. The formalities of the union treaty was not completed and disrespected by the south. Somaliland signed and passed a treaty that clearly states what rights they have going in to this union willingly. The south allocated power unfairly and went forward with their own version of the union treaty. The legal basis on which the union stands on is very questionable.

This is one of the reasons Somaliland is not brought up to international court for violating or infringing on the government of Somalia rights to Somaliland because the court would most likely indirectly recognize Somaliland's claim to statehood.

The legal claim Somaliland has is backed up by many conventions done even before Somaliland got its independence.

The Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States is a treaty signed at Montevideo, Uruguay, on December 26, 1933.

Charter of the United Nations, Adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, 26 June 1945.


UN Resolution on Recognition by the United Nations of the Representation of a Member State, 14 December 1950

The Convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards, also known as the “New York Arbitration Convention” or the “New York Convention 1958

UN Resolution on United Nations Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (Adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, 14 December 1960)

I'm genuinely curious for what the OP's response is, because I think they already know all these things.

@DalJecel let's say today you were on the negotiating table between somaliland and somalia. What would you say to the somaliland side to reasonably get them to support the union once again?

:cosbyhmm:
 

Lordilord

❤Somaliland❤
The legal claim to statehood has always existed since Somaliland gained its independence from England 26th of June 1960.

If the union was successful Somaliland wouldn't have to use that claim. Series of events during many years in the past lead to Somaliland completely isolating itself from Somalia.

The union itself starterd very bad. The formalities of the union treaty was not completed and disrespected by the south. Somaliland signed and passed a treaty that clearly states what rights they have going in to this union willingly. The south allocated power unfairly and went forward with their own version of the union treaty. The legal basis on which the union stands on is very questionable.

This is one of the reasons Somaliland is not brought up to international court for violating or infringing on the government of Somalia rights to Somaliland because the court would most likely indirectly recognize Somaliland's claim to statehood.

The legal claim Somaliland has is backed up by many conventions done even before Somaliland got its independence.

The Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States is a treaty signed at Montevideo, Uruguay, on December 26, 1933.

Charter of the United Nations, Adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, 26 June 1945.


UN Resolution on Recognition by the United Nations of the Representation of a Member State, 14 December 1950

The Convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards, also known as the “New York Arbitration Convention” or the “New York Convention 1958

UN Resolution on United Nations Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (Adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, 14 December 1960)
Being able to become a recognized state during this modern time if done correctly is a ticket to success.

The access to financial institutions that Somaliland currently doesn't have could change the lives of all somali people in Somaliland for the better.

Foreign investments would come pouring in and I honestly believe if Somaliland was recognized just after 5 years you would be able to see very big changes in infrastructure, economy, health care etc.
 
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BirtaanJabin

DalJecel the DhafoorQiiq
VIP
No one oppressed me, my family got out of the country at the right time.

:rejoice:

Alhamdullilah.

As for other landers, I have nothing but empathy and I can understand their position.

People all over somalia, not just somaliland have gotten much more dignity and honour in creating their own countries, instead of being lackeys for liars who with one breath talking about ending qabil and being against qabyalad, but in another breath stack governmental positions with their qabil and ostracize and kill for expressing any sort of discontent.
I'm genuinely curious for what the OP's response is, because I think they already know all these things.

@DalJecel let's say today you were on the negotiating table between somaliland and somalia. What would you say to the somaliland side to reasonably get them to support the union once again?

:cosbyhmm:
I'd give them more Autonomy than other States, and I'd offer Hargeisa being given Special City Status like Diri Dhabe.
 
I'd give them more Autonomy than other States, and I'd offer Hargeisa being given Special City Status like Diri Dhabe.

:ehh:

That's not a bad start tbh. I would add...

Autonomy similar to catalonia, and local officials getting full tax revenue and controlling the laws like catalonia.

Different states like puntland, somaliland etc are given this autonomy. They are obligated to fall in line with the federal government in matters of national importance like highways, military defence, intelligence, key industries etc.

The capital moving to a wholly neutral location, similar to Nigeria's Abuja. It can be a brand new city, or a multi-clan city that is already inhabited.

Governmental positions being awarded primarily on merit and education related to that post. In a situation where there are a number of relatively equally highly qualified persons, the clan with lower representation in the current government would be given the post.

All states are allowed to express discontent and protest as long as it is peaceful, and aren't inciting violence or separatism. Even if the protests are violent or call for separatism, the federal government cannot kill anybody or bomb whole cities. They can arrest and punish the leaders, and use non-violent water cannons, and even rubber bullets (in extreme cases).

The federal government paying for the full reconstruction of destroyed infrastructure and paying reparations to families of deceased (not easy I know).

====================================

I'm missing some stuff, but if I saw the federal government truly be sincere about a united somalia, and did all this, I would wholeheartedly support it.

But I don't think they will do any of this.

Any future united somalia will be the federal government being like a big brother, not a dictatorial father.
 
When Cigaal and the northern delegation went to Mogadishu in April 1960, they carried a document that had in it 23 articles with regards to the union, Cigaal said the next day the wanlaweyns returned with only two articles..

That was the mistake, letting the wanlaweyns into the roundtable and behave like that.
 
When Cigaal and the northern delegation went to Mogadishu in April 1960, they carried a document that had in it 23 articles with regards to the union, Cigaal said the next day the wanlaweyns returned with only two articles..

That was the mistake, letting the wanlaweyns into the roundtable and behave like that.

They used to see themselves as superior. Wallahi, a country gives you sharaf. If you live in a country where you have no representation, control, or respect, it's truly a nightmare.
 

BirtaanJabin

DalJecel the DhafoorQiiq
VIP
:ehh:

That's not a bad start tbh. I would add...

Autonomy similar to catalonia, and local officials getting full tax revenue and controlling the laws like catalonia.

Different states like puntland, somaliland etc are given this autonomy. They are obligated to fall in line with the federal government in matters of national importance like highways, military defence, intelligence, key industries etc.

The capital moving to a wholly neutral location, similar to Nigeria's Abuja. It can be a brand new city, or a multi-clan city that is already inhabited.

Governmental positions being awarded primarily on merit and education related to that post. In a situation where there are a number of relatively equally highly qualified persons, the clan with lower representation in the current government would be given the post.

All states are allowed to express discontent and protest as long as it is peaceful, and aren't inciting violence or separatism. Even if the protests are violent or call for separatism, the federal government cannot kill anybody or bomb whole cities. They can arrest and punish the leaders, and use non-violent water cannons, and even rubber bullets (in extreme cases).

The federal government paying for the full reconstruction of destroyed infrastructure and paying reparations to families of deceased (not easy I know).

====================================

I'm missing some stuff, but if I saw the federal government truly be sincere about a united somalia, and did all this, I would wholeheartedly support it.

But I don't think they will do any of this.

Any future united somalia will be the federal government being like a big brother, not a dictatorial father.
Wallahi you hit the nail on the head
 
Wallahi you hit the nail on the head

:friendhug:

I think most people are like us tbh. If somalia was successful and whole today, none of us would be against that. The current situation just forces people to pick sides.

But, I think these things are a pipe dream. Until then, I'm gonna have to support somaliland.
 

BirtaanJabin

DalJecel the DhafoorQiiq
VIP
:friendhug:

I think most people are like us tbh. If somalia was successful and whole today, none of us would be against that. The current situation just forces people to pick sides.

But, I think these things are a pipe dream. Until then, I'm gonna have to support somaliland.
Its time MBC and Formaggio came to the tablen
 
Its time MBC and Formaggio came to the tablen

The other issue is that somalia just doesn't have a lot of clout right now

In the 60's, mogadishu was truly the most lively and beautiful city in somalia. It was a magnet for somalis all across the region. That elegance and clout allowed them to coax everyone into following them and deferring to them

Now? The city is very buur buur, only the beach and the weather are still beautiful.

The northerners or others don't have that glowing admiration they used to have.

Only way to reverse all this, is for new people with a new vision to come and implement something not old heads like farmajo or bixi. It's probably gonna be the diaspora...
 

BirtaanJabin

DalJecel the DhafoorQiiq
VIP
The other issue is that somalia just doesn't have a lot of clout right now

In the 60's, mogadishu was truly the most lively and beautiful city in somalia. It was a magnet for somalis all across the region. That elegance and clout allowed them to coax everyone into following them and deferring to them

Now? The city is very buur buur, only the beach and the weather are still beautiful.

The northerners or others don't have that glowing admiration they used to have.

Only way to reverse all this, is for new people with a new vision to come and implement something not old heads like farmajo or bixi. It's probably gonna be the diaspora...
What do you think of the 4.5 system and isaaq being under dir
 
What do you think of the 4.5 system and isaaq being under dir

Not the poster you asked but I think it's an antiquated system which is unfair to Isaaq as it downplays their respective share of the Somali population. Hargeisa is the second largest Sonali inhabited city in the world.

Isaaq should be its own parliamentary group and seperate from Dir if we are to unite again with Southern Somalis.
 
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