Nilotic the thread

[Nilotic]

Because of this would you be okay wiht adopting swahili? I personally see that as a loss for nilotics as that will probably spur your assimilation into the niger congo sphere. However, hopefully swahilization in south sudan is unsucessful.

Adopting Swahili would be a terrible mistake as it would only serve to gradually chip away at our identity and have us integrated as junior 'partners' -> a Satrap State; I also think that we would be subject to mockery as we learn their language; this would be the linguistic equivalent of hazing.

 

[Nilotic]

Why did you deliberatly forget the Nuer?
I am starting to think you are a somali troll.

Why do you have such a hard on for me, mate?

I didn't mention the Nuer because they don't constitute more than 15% of the population, so it would be absurd to even countenance choosing their language as the official language.

I'm not a Geeljire troll.

 

[Sheikh Kulkuli]

Why do you have such a hard on for me, mate?

I didn't mention the Nuer because they don't constitute more than 15% of the population, so it would be absurd to even countenance choosing their language as the official language.

I'm not a Geeljire troll.

I still have mybdoubts you might be a somali that hangs around.south sudanese.

Secondly the tecent war was between Nuer vs Dinka.
I Nuer were 15% they would have been wiped out by Dinka.

 

[Nilotic]

I still have mybdoubts you might be a somali that hangs around.south sudanese.

Secondly the tecent war was between Nuer vs Dinka.
I Nuer were 15% they would have been wiped out by Dinka.

You are incredibly paranoid and I don't think there's anything I could do to possibly change your mind.

The civil war is not really a Dinka vs Nuer war; it's a war between elites from these tribes and the largest and most powerful Nuer section (Bul Nuer) is on the side of the 'Government' and ostensibly with the Dinka.

There are 25 Dinka sections and only 3 sections are involved in this war. The sections that are involved are Salva Kiir's section (Gogrial), the section of his mother (Abiem) and the Dinka of Upper Nile State.

The Nuer were the principal ancillary force in Khartoum's tribal militia network during the North-South war; they provided Khartoum with over 50, 000 militiamen and guarded the oilfields for the Afro-Arabs against us.

What did we do to the Nuer when we signed the peace agreement with their Afro-Arab allies in 2005? We gave the Vice Presidency to their political leader -> Riek Machar; we then gave the Deputy Commander-in-Chief position to their warlord -> Paulino Matip Nhial.

The Nuer and their betrayal prolonged the North-South war and allowed it to be concentrated in the South -- and hundreds of thousands of Dinka people died fighting the Afro-Arabs as a result; we could have been vengeful and locked them out for siding with the enemy.

We're not trying to wipe out the Nuer.

 

[Sheikh Kulkuli]

You are incredibly paranoid and I don't think there's anything I could do to possibly change your mind.

The civil war is not really a Dinka vs Nuer war; it's a war between elites from these tribes and the largest and most powerful Nuer section (Bul Nuer) is on the side of the 'Government' and ostensibly with the Dinka.

There are 25 Dinka sections and only 3 sections are involved in this war. The sections that are involved are Salva Kiir's section (Gogrial), the section of his mother (Abiem) and the Dinka of Upper Nile State.

The Nuer were the principal ancillary force in Khartoum's tribal militia network during the North-South war; they provided Khartoum with over 50, 000 militiamen and guarded the oilfields for the Afro-Arabs against us.

What did we do to the Nuer when we signed the peace agreement with their Afro-Arab allies in 2005? We gave the Vice Presidency to their political leader -> Riek Machar; we then gave the Deputy Commander-in-Chief position to their warlord -> Paulino Matip Nhial.

The Nuer and their betrayal prolonged the North-South war and allowed it to be concentrated in the South -- and hundreds of thousands of Dinka people died fighting the Afro-Arabs as a result; we could have been vengeful and locked them out for siding with the enemy.

We're not trying to wipe out the Nuer.

I saw mountain heaps of corpses piling on top of each other.
Never in my life did I see such graphic images.
Thats not even civil war.

Those images were like WW2 even Rwanda will become amateur.

How come some of your elites live in Nairobi.They do live in discreet locations.
Like I was neighbours with Salvakirs family.

 

[Nilotic]

I saw mountain heaps of corpses piling on top of each other.
Never in my life did I see such graphic images.
Thats not even civil war.

Those images were like WW2 even Rwanda will become amateur.

How come some of your elites live in Nairobi.They do live in discreet locations.
Like I was neighbours with Salvakirs family.

Ah, so you eyeballed the magnitude and severity of our civil war by accessing a few graphic images?

I'm quite certain that the Isaaq could make the same claims about what Siad Barre did to them in Hargeisa and how it was comparable to Rwanda.

I still don’t regret our independence because it was the only way we could prevent continued land-theft and the humiliation of being lorded over by the half-caste derivatives of the Nubians. Centuries of struggle have been put into utter disrepute by death-deserving traitors, and it's shameful.

Our "elites" hide in Nairobi because they don't feel safe with us; it's only a matter of time until we liquidate them all -- if they continue on this path; the Nilote is not accustomed to being lorded over like this, because we are pastoralists.

 

[Nilotic]

@Nomadite

Here's my more extensive take on the possible adoption of Swahili in South Sudan

South Korea's gender wars

I was previously in support of adopting Swahili as the official language of South Sudan in order to facilitate greater integration with the East African community, but I no longer see the value in that. I would much rather have English as the official language and have mandatory indigenous...

www.somalispot.com

 

[Nilotic]

@Nomadite

Do you have any genetic data on the Nara and the Kunama? I think that they ultimately descend from a Central Saharan area (Darfur-Chad) because they (like Darfurians) have Nilotic markers at relatively significant frequencies.

The Nara language is also the closest to Nubian, which is why I think that the Saharans (Saharan component of 'Nilo-Saharan') are actually their own language group and form their own cluster away from "Cushites" and Dinka-like Nilotics. Note that the Nubians originate in Darfur.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though the Nara have the Nilotic A-M13 marker at 20% while the Darfurian Masalit have it at 31%.

@Shimbiris

Do you have any thoughts-theories on this?

 

[Asaana]

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to convey. I'm not trying to make modern claims to the lands in the far North; I am saying that we had a presence there from 9000 BC to at least 1,000 BC -- when Nilotics are first depicted on ancient Egyptian murals..


..That's thousands of years and it's anything but brief.

I can't find anything on the "The Garden Arbor" and its a relation to a remnant Dinka section being subject to slave raids in 1870.



I'm going to provide some much needed historical context regarding the Nubians; I'll provide material on their origins in Darfurn and how they found themselves to be on the banks of the Nile in Southern Egypt. The Nubians were called 'Nubae', 'Nobate', 'Noba', 'Nobiin', 'Nuba' and 'Nubian'.


Origins in Darfur:


According to the linguist Robin Thelwall:









The first reference to the Nubae (Nubians) is by Erastothenes in 200 BC. Darfur had its own Nubian languages; one of them (Meidob) is now extinct. It's clear that the Nubians came from this area.


Roman invitation of the Nubians to Southern Egypt:


Procopius of Caesarea (500-565 AD) details the dynamics in Southern Egypt; he details the security threats posed by the Blemmyae and the Nubians. He then outlines the steps taken by Emperor Diocletian:



My evidence concerning the invitation of the Nubians to Southern Egypt by Diocletian.




It's clear that all the riverine populations that lived on the banks of the Nile from Elephantine down to Kush were absorbed by the Nubians -- per the invitation of the Roman Emperor Diocletian.

Introduction of Nubian languages to the Khartoum area:







Nubian contact and relations with the powers of that time:




Nubian infiltration of the Kushite kingdom:


According to D. A. Welsby;



The Nubians were known to Greek, Roman, Ethiopian and Arab writers as 'Nubae', 'Nobades', 'Nobates', 'Noba' and 'Nuba'. The only groups that are Nubian in the Nuba mountains are the Hill Nubians; their variant of Nubian is spoken in Dilling, Kadaru and other areas around it.

The Arabs must have applied the name 'Nuba' to the other (unrelated) groups that live in the Nuba mountains.

The Nubians of Sudan and Egypt are the direct descendants of the Nubae from Darfur; they were not wiped out or obliterated due to the ravages of the slave trade just two centuries ago.

Linguistics doesn't accurately reflect genetics, modern day Nubian markers overlap with Bejas. This makes sense since it's well known that Cushitic tribes such as the Bishari have settled in the Northern Nile region for centuries. Most of them live in the Atbai region (between the Nile and Red Sea) and are often referred to as "Nubians of the hills" or "Desert Nubians". Not to mention the Shaiyqiya tribe also have clans living in the Atbai that speak the Beja language which further disproves the conspiracy theory that contemporary Nubians came from Darfur. Lastly, nothing you posted mentions any statistics on migration, it's literally just Roman folklore. Compare the population of Sudan in 200 BC to now, hell compare the pre-Islamic population to now and you'll see it's no shock that many groups went extinct (even as recently as the 19th century) and how major ethnic groups such as the Baggara formed in Darfur from Arab and other Saharan migrations.

 

[Nilotic]

Linguistics doesn't accurately reflect genetics, modern day Nubian markers overlap with Bejas.

Granted that linguistics doesn't account for everything, but it simply can't be completely dismissed in such a cavalier manner without so much as a reasoned, fact-based and historically sequential explanation.

There is also the fact that genetic studies pertaining to modern Nubians explicitly conclude that "an unadmixed’ Nubian gene-pool is genetically similar to Nilotes"...

..And that the admixture event for the modern Nubian population took place 750 years ago. It doesn't matter where the modern Nubae-Nobatae (Nubians) fit in genetically today. I don't much care for that.


The citation is in this source:

Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations

Author summary Northeast Africa has geographic and historical links to Eurasia via the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula, but the demographic history of the region itself has been more elusive. We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal...

journals.plos.org

This makes sense since it's well known that Cushitic tribes such as the Bishari have settled in the Northern Nile region for centuries. Most of them live in the Atbai region (between the Nile and Red Sea) and are often referred to as "Nubians of the hills" or "Desert Nubians"

Explain relevance of a certain "Cushitic" tribe residing with the Nubians in the last couple of centuries and subsequently adopting a completely unrelated language, apparently relates to the origins of the Nubians.

Not to mention the Shaiyqiya tribe also have clans living in the Atbai that speak the Beja language which further disproves the conspiracy theory that contemporary Nubians came from Darfur. Lastly, nothing you posted mentions any statistics on migration, it's literally just Roman folklore.

You're on a run with this irrelevant point.


Please explain the relevance of an Arabized Nubian tribe having clans that reside with the Beja and adopting a completely unrelated language -- in a different phylum.

There is no link between the Nubian language and the Beja language. It's beyond irrelevant if the two groups have intermixed recently.

It's not a "conspiracy theory" that the Nubae-Nobatae migrated to Upper Egypt per the invitation of Diocletian; it transpired in the light of history and there is ample evidence to affirm it.

Nubian language origins:

Various theories have been proposed concerning the homeland of the Nubian languages. Current historical and linguistic evidence suggests that it was in Kordofan or Darfur and that Nubian first entered the middle reaches of the Nile between A.D. 200 and 500. There it replaced Meroitic, which appears to have been spoken in the area for a long time. Meroitic may, but has not yet been proved to be a language of the Eastern Sudanic group. If so, the persistence of many cultural traits in the Sudan may be correlated with the stability of the Eastern Sudanic-speakers in the same area.

Source from Cambridge:

The Languages of the northern sudan: an Historical perspective | The Journal of African History | Cambridge Core

The Languages of the northern sudan: an Historical perspective - Volume 7 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

Compare the population of Sudan in 200 BC to now, hell compare the pre-Islamic population to now and you'll see it's no shock that many groups went extinct (even as recently as the 19th century) and how major ethnic groups such as the Baggara formed in Darfur from Arab and other Saharan migrations.

You have completely failed to provide even so much as an iota of evidence that the Nubae-Nobatae somehow went extinct.

The onus is on you to prove that the Nubae-Nobatae people (and their medieval Christian kingdoms) somehow became extinct even though historians recognise them as the Nubians of the medieval period.

The Nubians, Nara and tribes in Darfur are part of a Central Saharan complex; take away the recent Arab introgression, and it becomes clear that the Nubians were genetically similar to these Central Saharans. It's no coincidence that the Nubian language is closest to another Nilo-Saharan language -- Nara.

Central Saharans have E1b1b lineages as well as A-M13 Nilotic markers because these populations are composites of proto-Nilotics and E-M215/E-M35 populations.

 

[Asaana]

Granted that linguistics doesn't account for everything, but it simply can't be completely dismissed in such a cavalier manner without so much as a reasoned, fact-based and historically sequential explanation.

There is also the fact that genetic studies pertaining to modern Nubians explicitly conclude that "an unadmixed’ Nubian gene-pool is genetically similar to Nilotes"...

..And that the admixture event for the modern Nubian population took place 750 years ago. It doesn't matter where the modern Nubae-Nobatae (Nubians) fit in genetically today. I don't much care for that.


The citation is in this source:

Northeast African genomic variation shaped by the continuity of indigenous groups and Eurasian migrations

Author summary Northeast Africa has geographic and historical links to Eurasia via the Middle East and the Arabian Peninsula, but the demographic history of the region itself has been more elusive. We investigate genomic diversity of northeast African populations and found a clear bimodal...

journals.plos.org

Explain relevance of a certain "Cushitic" tribe residing with the Nubians in the last couple of centuries and subsequently adopting a completely unrelated language, apparently relates to the origins of the Nubians.




You're on a run with this irrelevant point.


Please explain the relevance of an Arabized Nubian tribe having clans that reside with the Beja and adopting a completely unrelated language -- in a different phylum.

There is no link between the Nubian language and the Beja language. It's beyond irrelevant if the two groups have intermixed recently.

It's not a "conspiracy theory" that the Nubae-Nobatae migrated to Upper Egypt per the invitation of Diocletian; it transpired in the light of history and there is ample evidence to affirm it.

Nubian language origins:



Source from Cambridge:

The Languages of the northern sudan: an Historical perspective | The Journal of African History | Cambridge Core

The Languages of the northern sudan: an Historical perspective - Volume 7 Issue 1

www.cambridge.org

You have completely failed to provide even so much as an iota of evidence that the Nubae-Nobatae somehow went extinct.

The onus is on you to prove that the Nubae-Nobatae people (and their medieval Christian kingdoms) somehow became extinct even though historians recognise them as the Nubians of the medieval period.

The Nubians, Nara and tribes in Darfur are part of a Central Saharan complex; take away the recent Arab introgression, and it becomes clear that the Nubians were genetically similar to these Central Saharans. It's no coincidence that the Nubian language is closest to another Nilo-Saharan language -- Nara.

Central Saharans have E1b1b lineages as well as A-M13 Nilotic markers because these populations are composites of proto-Nilotics and E-M215/E-M35 populations.

Your source literally proves my point, it even shows that the Nuba, Zaghawa, Hausa, and virtually every Nilotic tribe are genetically distant from Nubians in comparison to Beni Amer.

And since they say a picture is a thousand words...

This is why it's important to look at the concrete facts instead of letting ancient conspiracy theories and folklore rot your brain.

 

[Nilotic]

Your source literally proves my point, it even shows that the Nuba, Zaghawa, Hausa, and virtually every Nilotic tribe are genetically distant from Nubians in comparison to Beni Amer.

And since they say a picture is a thousand words...

This is why it's important to look at the concrete facts instead of letting ancient conspiracy theories and folklore rot your brain.

Do you also agree with my source that the Arab admixture is responsible for that shift, or do you select what you decide to accept based on emotion?

The point my source made clear is that the modern Nubians shifted toward the Beni Amer due to the admixture event with Arabs 750 years ago.

I don't care that you now align genetically with the Beni Amer as a result of that admixture event; I never claimed that the modern Nubian population was genetically close with the Central Saharans.

 

[Asaana]

Do you also agree with my source that the Arab admixture is responsible for that shift, or do you select what you decide to accept based on emotion?

The point my source made clear is that the modern Nubians shifted toward the Beja due to the admixture event with Arabs 750 years ago.

Did I ever argue against that? No, and resorting to strawman won't take you anywhere. To address your new goalpost, the majority of admixture that occurred happened far earlier than 750 years ago. In the 9th century Arab travelers to Sudan noted the difference in phenotype between Northerners and Southerners; and you can just look at the paintings from the Christian Nubia era and see that they don't look Nilotic.

The 300 Arab tribes that immigrated to Sudan in the pre-Islamic era intermixed with all Northerners, so if any "shift" occurred it was not exclusive to Nubians at all.

Who is "you"? You don't know if i'm Nubian, Rizeget, Hadendowa, Baggara, Jaaliya, etc. I've never mentioned my tribe on this website. I understand that as a Nilot this is an emotional subject for you but truth be told all I care about are the facts, not fairytales from over 2,000 years ago that hold zero scientific substance.

I don't care that you now align genetically with the Beja as a result of that admixture event; I never claimed that the modern Nubian population was genetically close with the Central Saharans.

Okay, so if you never claimed that why are you adamant on claiming Nubians came from Darfur when genetically they're nowhere near Darfurians or the Nuba of South Kordofan, both of which you desperately try to associate with Nubians.

 

[Nilotic]

Did I ever argue against that? No, and resorting to strawman won't take you anywhere. To address your new goalpost, the majority of admixture that occurred happened far earlier than 750 years ago. In the 9th century Arab travelers to Sudan noted the difference in phenotype between Northerners and Southerners; and you can just look at the paintings from the Christian Nubia era and see that they don't look Nilotic.

"Straw man arguments"? I asked if you agreed with the entire study or if you only agree with bits and pieces and what the basis for that was, so how in the world is that a "straw man" argument?

A straw man argument is when you ignore what was said, make stuff up, and argue that instead. I did no such thing. Don't just throw around buzzwords.

I have been consistent all throughout; my position has not changed at all.

Were those paintings of Lower or Upper Nubians? It matters because one part is obviously closer to Egypt, and we see that populations in Lower 'Nubia' were depicted very differently from populations from Upper 'Nubia' by the ancient Egyptians.

We also have accounts from ancient Greek and Roman writers noting the difference between those in 'Lower Nubia' and those in Meroe that were significantly darker. There was obviously a cline in terms of skin colour in ancient Sudan and pitch-black people were undoubtedly present in the historical period.

Those around Meroe were called Aethiopians, so keep note of that as the ancient Greek and Roman writers note the physical difference between the inhabitants of Upper and Lower 'Nubia':

For in the correspondingly situated places on our side of the equator, that is those on the Summer Tropic [i.e. at Egypt's latitude], people do not yet have the color of the Aithiopians, and there are no rhinoceros and elephants; but in places not much to the south of these, moderately black people are to be found, such as those who live in the "Thirty Schoinoi" [region in lower Nubia] outside of Soene. Of the same type, too, are the people of Garame, whom Marinos also says (and indeed, for this very reason) live neither right on the Summer Tropic nor to the north, but entirely to the south of it. But in places around Meroe people are already quite black in color, and are at last pure Aithiopians, and the habitat of the elephants and more wonderful animals is there."
--Ptolemy

Now the inhabitants of the marches are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians. -- Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 6.1-5.

Source:

https://www.livius.org/sources/cont...lonius/philostratus-life-of-apollonius-6.1-5/

The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness -- Marcus Manilius

These are the people the ancient Egyptians encountered in Upper Nubia:

Contrast with these people in 'Lower Nubia'

I already theorised (in our earlier exchanges) that the Nubae-Nobatae invaders that were invited to the banks of the Nile (by Diocletian) may have absorbed riverine populations that lived in 'Lower Nubia' and that they clearly imposed their language and identity onto non-Nubian populations in that area.


Nubians were invited to settle between the first cataract and Wadi Halfa per the invitation of Diocletian in 297 CE, so it would be interesting if the Nubian nomads of the Western Desert admixed and absorbed populations in that particular prior to the Christian era.

People in Wadi Halfa are lighter than people in Khartoum-Omdurman.

The 300 Arab tribes that immigrated to Sudan in the pre-Islamic era intermixed with all Northerners, so if any "shift" occurred it was not exclusive to Nubians at all.

Who is "you"? You don't know if i'm Nubian, Rizeget, Hadendowa, Baggara, Jaaliya, etc. I've never mentioned my tribe on this website. I understand that as a Nilot this is an emotional subject for you but truth be told all I care about are the facts, not fairytales from over 2,000 years ago that hold zero scientific substance.

I don't really care what Northern tribe you're from.

As for "emotional"..."emotional" how? Our original identity doesn't play second fiddle to the culture and identity of outsiders.

Judging by the predominance of Arab male lineages in the Afro-Arabs of Sudan... Nubian men inexplicably just stood aside and allowed themselves to be demographically replaced by the half-caste derivatives of their sisters and daughters; these half-caste derivatives then flooded their lands and their protests were met with contemptuous disregard.

My people have been through a great deal, but that nothing like that.

We already know that virtually all the populations of North Sudan intermixed with the Arabs and that this even extends to Darfur. The Nubians were subject to a far greater level of admixture and they're the only ones that lost their identity in the process.

The Beja owe most of their admixture to a far earlier admixture event but they don't consider themselves Arabs.

Okay, so if you never claimed that why are you adamant on claiming Nubians came from Darfur when genetically they're nowhere near Darfurians or the Nuba of South Kordofan, both of which you desperately try to associate with Nubians.

I'm not claiming anything; the historical record shows that the Nubians were invited to the Northern reaches of the Nile by the Roman Emperor Diocletian, and this is simply an accepted historical fact.

 

[Nomadite]

@Nomadite

Do you have any genetic data on the Nara and the Kunama? I think that they ultimately descend from a Central Saharan area (Darfur-Chad) because they (like Darfurians) have Nilotic markers at relatively significant frequencies.

The Nara language is also the closest to Nubian, which is why I think that the Saharans (Saharan component of 'Nilo-Saharan') are actually their own language group and form their own cluster away from "Cushites" and Dinka-like Nilotics. Note that the Nubians originate in Darfur.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as though the Nara have the Nilotic A-M13 marker at 20% while the Darfurian Masalit have it at 31%.

@Shimbiris

Do you have any thoughts-theories on this?

Umm I would not at this time, my nilo saharan genetic profile is not the best. I believe you are correct for the last part yes.

 

[Nilotic]

The flooding of Nubian land I was referring to and the anger that created in the Nubians toward the Afro-Arabs:

Fears of another Darfur

As tensions flare over proposed dams, many predict Sudan's Nubia region will be the next to erupt in violence.

www.latimes.com

I retract my claim on the people in Wadi Halfa being lighter than those in Khartoum-Omdurman; they actually don't seem that light at all -- with the notable exception of the Magyarabs.

 

[Asaana]

View attachment 198135

I don't really care what Northern tribe you're from.

As for "emotional"..."emotional" how? Our original identity doesn't play second fiddle to the culture and identity of outsiders.

Judging by the predominance of Arab male lineages in the Afro-Arabs of Sudan... Nubian men inexplicably just stood aside and allowed themselves to be demographically replaced by the half-caste derivatives of their sisters and daughters; these half-caste derivatives then flooded their lands and their protests were met with contemptuous disregard.

My people have been through a great deal, but that nothing like that.

We already know that virtually all the populations of North Sudan intermixed with the Arabs and that this even extends to Darfur. The Nubians were subject to a far greater level of admixture and they're the only ones that lost their identity in the process.

The Beja owe most of their admixture to a far earlier admixture event but they don't consider themselves Arabs.



I'm not claiming anything; the historical record shows that the Nubians were invited to the Northern reaches of the Nile by the Roman Emperor Diocletian, and this is simply an accepted historical fact.

Well clearly you do care if you wanna make assumptions about my identity.

Lost their identity? Nubians still identify as Nubian and speak their language despite having Arab admixture. Quite impressive considering how cosmopolitan the ethnic group is in comparison to the hunter gatherer animists of the south that were historically isolated.

Also many Bejas identify as Arab, particularly the Arabized/urbanized Beja tribes such as the Ababda and city dwellers in Kassala... Are you even Sudo? I'm 80% sure that you're the Kenyan dude from twitter that often engages with Sudanis and horners but I could be wrong.

 

[Asaana]

The flooding of Nubian land I was referring to and the anger that created in the Nubians toward the Afro-Arabs:

Fears of another Darfur

As tensions flare over proposed dams, many predict Sudan's Nubia region will be the next to erupt in violence.

www.latimes.com

I retract my claim on the people in Wadi Halfa being lighter than those in Khartoum-Omdurman; they actually don't seem that light at all -- with the notable exception of the Magyarabs.

That's from 2007, all dam projects in the Northern region were cancelled by Hamdok.

Actually you were right the first time. People from Wadi Halfa tend to be lighter than those in Khartoum-Omdurman.

 

[Nilotic]

Well clearly you do care if you wanna make assumptions about my identity.

Lost their identity? Nubians still identify as Nubian and speak their language despite having Arab admixture. Quite impressive considering how cosmopolitan the ethnic group is in comparison to the hunter gatherer animists of the south that were historically isolated.

Also many Bejas identify as Arab, particularly the Arabized/urbanized Beja tribes such as the Ababda and city dwellers in Kassala... Are you even Sudo? I'm 80% sure that you're the Kenyan dude from twitter that often engages with Sudanis and horners but I could be wrong.

The Afro-Arabs are partially of Nubian ancestry and I'm clearly referring to them in my reference to identity and cultural practice; the Afro-Arabs are demographically, politically, culturally and economically the dominant power in Sudan.

The Nubians have never explained exactly just how it is they allowed that situation to transpire when this demographic change was apparently merely a process of Arab infiltration over the centuries; that actually makes it worse...

..The Nubians became marginal in their own land because they dropped the ball and allowed Arab men to marry their daughters en mass -- producing the Afro-Arabs that now rule Sudan.

"Hunter gatherers"? We're pastoralists; Nilotics have been pastoralists for thousands of years and it's what defines us; mere "hunter gathers" would not have mounted the sort of dogged resistance my people put up.

Should I now question your Sudo credentials because of your equally spotty knowledge on Southern tribes?

The Beja may have a small band of clans that have unfortunately succumbed to Arabization, but it pales in comparison to what happened to the Nubians.


What Kenyan dude?

I'm a pure Dinka -- a legitimate child of the white and blue Nile. I loathe social media for a whole host of reasons, and I wouldn't be caught dead making use of it. Please direct the mods to do an IP check.

I only heard about people from Wadi Halfa (and how light they were) as a child so I couldn't be entirely sure the info I received on them was correct, so I retracted it.

PS: I must commend you for at least acknowledging that we are Sudanese, and that the geographical prefix in our National name does not somehow invalidate our Sudanese identity -- as some people insist on doing.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because this Sudo debate (on a Somali forum) is becoming undignified; they must think we're weirdos.

 

[Asaana]

The Afro-Arabs are partially of Nubian ancestry and I'm clearly referring to them in my reference to identity and cultural practice; the Afro-Arabs are demographically, politically, culturally and economically the dominant power in Sudan.

The Nubians have never explained exactly just how it is they allowed that situation to transpire when this demographic change was apparently merely a process of Arab infiltration over the centuries; that actually makes it worse...

..The Nubians became marginal in their own land because they dropped the ball and allowed Arab men to marry their daughters en mass -- producing the Afro-Arabs that now rule Sudan.

"Hunter gatherers"? We're pastoralists; Nilotics have been pastoralists for thousands of years and it's what defines us; mere "hunter gathers" would not have mounted the sort of dogged resistance my people put up.

Should I now question your Sudo credentials because of your equally spotty knowledge on Southern tribes?

The Beja may have a small band of clans that have unfortunately succumbed to Arabization, but it pales in comparison to what happened to the Nubians.


What Kenyan dude?

I'm a pure Dinka -- a legitimate child of the white and blue Nile. I loathe social media for a whole host of reasons, and I wouldn't be caught dead making use of it. Please direct the mods to do an IP check.

I only heard about people from Wadi Halfa as a child so I couldn't be entirely sure the info on them was correct, so I retracted it.

PS: I must commend you for at least acknowledging that we are Sudanese, and that the geographical prefix in our National name does not somehow invalidate our Sudanese identity -- as some people insist on doing.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because this Sudo debate (on a Somali forum) is becoming undignified; they must think we're weirdos.

Okay at this point it's obvious you're just a troll. You're conflating haplogroup J, something that predates the Arab and Nubian identity with your new deranged conspiracy theory regarding intermarriage. It's common knowledge that Northern Sudanese people are strict with marriage and would rarely let European (Turkish, Greek, Albanian), Yemeni, or Egyptian men marry their daughters unless they come from a very high status family. That's why nearly every intermarriage that occurred in the last two centuries was between a Sudanese man and foreign woman.

The difference is you've shown to have spotty knowledge on both Northern and Southern tribes, you even downplayed the brutal oppression and subjugation that the Dinka faced. Your obsession with the eugenics and the identity of Northerners also makes it seem as if you have an inferiority complex - always comparing yourselves to those that are nothing like you.

Small band of clans? Um, there are major Beja tribes that have been speaking Arabic for centuries and grew rich from farming, trading, and business. They have a noble history and retained their traditions despite being fluent in Arabic. With all due respect but as an alleged Dinka you don't have room to be feeling contempt for anyone. Especially since Arabi Juba or English will eventually replace your tribal languages as you modernize.

An IP check wouldn't do much considering mods on here can't compare it to any twitter user IP, unless we have twitter mods on here (which I doubt). That being said i've been on this forum for 4 years so I don't really care how anyone here views me. This thread was started by you and the title is literally "Nilotic the thread" thus making it a non-Somali topic.