Nilotic the thread

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

Some more Nubians - Cushite hybrid.

 

[Nilotic]

Okay at this point it's obvious you're just a troll. You're conflating haplogroup J, something that predates the Arab and Nubian identity with your new deranged conspiracy theory regarding intermarriage. It's common knowledge that Northern Sudanese people are strict with marriage and would rarely let European (Turkish, Greek, Albanian), Yemeni, or Egyptian men marry their daughters unless they come from a very high status family. That's why nearly every intermarriage that occurred in the last two centuries was between a Sudanese man and foreign woman.

The difference is you've shown to have spotty knowledge on both Northern and Southern tribes, you even downplayed the brutal oppression and subjugation that the Dinka faced. Your obsession with the eugenics and the identity of Northerners also makes it seem as if you have an inferiority complex - always comparing yourselves to those that are nothing like you.

Small band of clans? Um, there are major Beja tribes that have been speaking Arabic for centuries and grew rich from farming, trading, and business. They have a noble history and retained their traditions despite being fluent in Arabic. With all due respect but as an alleged Dinka you don't have room to be feeling contempt for anyone. Especially since Arabi Juba or English will eventually replace your tribal languages as you modernize.

An IP check wouldn't do much considering mods on here can't compare it to any twitter user IP, unless we have twitter mods on here (which I doubt). That being said i've been on this forum for 4 years so I don't really care how anyone here views me. This thread was started by you and the title is literally "Nilotic the thread" thus making it a non-Somali topic.

There is no evidence that haplo J had a presence in Nubian populations prior to the Arab migrations and if you insist otherwise, please produce the data; your laughable denial about the tremendous genetic impact that the Arabs had on the Nubians runs counter to the genetic studies.

Are you now claiming that the Afro-Arabs are merely Nubians that voluntarily adopted an Arab identity without genetic introgression? That's a ridiculous, ahistorical claim.

The Dinka have never suffered from an inferiority-complex toward anyone in Sudan and it's why we spearheaded the fight against the Afro-Arabs. I'm just perplexed by how the Nubians allowed something most groups would never permit.

I have not downplayed the suffering my people endured at the hands of the Afro-Arabs and I challenge you to point out the historical event you want to debate me on as it relates to my people.

If you're referring to the slave trade that took place... you are out of your depth on this matter because it mainly affected the non-Nilotic Fertit tribes of Western Bahr el Ghazal.

You will not be able to debate me on my South Sudanese people and what they went through.

Juba Arabic and English will not replace our tribal languages; we'll retain our indigenous languages just like how the Kikuyu and Luo maintain their languages alongside Swahili.

Speaking Arabic and adopting the Arab identity are two completely different things and you’ve not provided anything to suggest that a significant portion of Beja identity as Arabs.

PS: I didn't actually start this thread, so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

There is no evidence that haplo J had a presence in Nubian populations prior to the Arab migrations and if you insist otherwise, please produce the data; your laughable denial about the tremendous genetic impact that the Arabs had on the Nubians runs counter to the genetic studies.

Are you now claiming that the Afro-Arabs are merely Nubians that voluntarily adopted an Arab identity without genetic introgression? That's a ridiculous, ahistorical claim.

The Dinka have never suffered from an inferiority-complex toward anyone in Sudan and it's why we spearheaded the fight against the Afro-Arabs. I'm just perplexed by how the Nubians allowed something most groups would never permit.

I have not downplayed the suffering my people endured at the hands of the Afro-Arabs and I challenge you to point out the historical event you want to debate me on as it relates to my people.

If you're referring to the slave trade that took place... you are out of your depth on this matter because it mainly affected the non-Nilotic Fertit tribes of Western Bahr el Ghazal.

You will not be able to debate me on my South Sudanese people and what they went through.

Juba Arabic and English will not replace our tribal languages; we'll retain our indigenous languages just like how the Kikuyu and Luo maintain their languages alongside Swahili.

Speaking Arabic and adopting the Arab identity are two completely different things and you’ve not provided anything to suggest that a significant portion of Beja identity as Arabs.

PS: I didn't actually start this thread, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Beja are not Arabs, even Somali's identify as Arabs sometimes. Beja are haplogroup EV32, Just like Somalis.

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

The original Afro Asiatic people were haplogroup EM35. Haplogroup J came from Iran and Caucusus. They are now majority because of a genetic effect called the founder effect.

 

[Asaana]

There is no evidence that haplo J had a presence in Nubian populations prior to the Arab migrations and if you insist otherwise, please produce the data; your laughable denial about the tremendous genetic impact that the Arabs had on the Nubians runs counter to the genetic studies.

Migrations across the Red Sea happened as early as the stone age, with Haplogroup J being prevalent across Sudan and the Northern horn but for some reason you're only associating it with Nubians? Sounds like academic dishonesty at its best and trolling at its worst.

Are you now claiming that the Afro-Arabs are merely Nubians that voluntarily adopted an Arab identity without genetic introgression? That's a ridiculous, ahistorical claim.

Huh? Not sure if this is strawman or trolling but you do realize that not all Afro-Arabs are the same, right? You have the Shaiqiya, formally Nubians which were Arabized very recently as they voluntarily adopted Arabic, the Rufaa which trace their ancestry to Bedouin immigrants, and the Jaalis who are more or less Nubians that have alleged Hijazi roots.

The Dinka have never suffered from an inferiority-complex toward anyone in Sudan and it's why we spearheaded the fight against the Afro-Arabs. I'm just perplexed by how the Nubians allowed something most groups would never permit

Ah yes, and that's why Dinka women bleach their skin and wear silky wigs while wealthy Dinka men are notorious for marrying pale Egyptian peasants... Also you clearly lack basic knowledge on Nubian history despite it being well-recorded. The Baqt treaty alone refutes your insane theories. Not sure if you're just ignorant or a troll projecting his insecurities.

I have not downplayed the suffering my people endured at the hands of the Afro-Arabs and I challenge you to point out the historical event you want to debate me about as it relates to my people.

If you're referring to the slave trade that took place... you are out of your depth on this matter because it mainly affected the non-Nilotic Fertit tribes of Western Bahr el Ghazal.

I already posted the illustration of Rufaa slave raiders attacking a Dinka village and you went on to deny the fact that they were Dinka. Are the Dinka a non-Nilotic Fertit tribe? Both Dinka and Nuer were notoriously enslaved by Northerners, even the Acholi mock the subjugation that your ancestors faced.

Juba Arabic and English will not replace our tribal languages; we'll retain our indigenous languages just like how the Kikuyu and Luo maintain their languages alongside Swahili.

That's a naïve assumption. Most Kenyans I met (both in Nairobi and the states) only speak Swahili and English. South Sudanese diaspora is already massive with many not speaking their tribal language, it'll only increase as the country prospers and globalizes, especially since the business sector of South Sudan is dominated by foreign companies.

Speaking Arabic and adopting the Arab identity are two completely different things and you’ve not provided anything to suggest that a significant portion of Beja identity as Arabs.

Speaking Arabic as a lingua-franca and identifying as Arab are not completely different things. After all, it's a non-racial linguistic identity like Hispanic. Not provided anything? Well if you knew how to use google and do your own research you'd see the Ababda alone makeup 10% of Bejas, and the major Shukria clan are predominately Arabized Bejas with some Nubian roots. Anyways the Hadendowa, Bishari, etc identify with their tribe first and foremost, and they acknowledge both their Beja and Arab roots. A bit ironic how you acknowledge that these groups have Arab ancestry but you want them to abandon it. Meanwhile you have Islamic ethnic groups across the world from Senegal, Nigeria, and Pakistan that claim Arab roots for religious reasons and I don't see you fixated on it.

PS: I didn't actually start this thread, so I don't know what you're talking about.

I stand corrected, but you're still very active in it and proceed to write me replies even after saying that we should just disagree and end it.

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

@Asaana your so biast everybody including scientist and historians know that ancient Nubians were Nilo Sharan. Why are you so anti Nilotes?

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

The Nubia was led and dominated by Nilotes, I even believe ancient Egyptians ere halve Nilote and the first ancient Egyptians may have been a mixture of Nilote and Natufians.

 

[Asaana]

@Asaana your so biast everybody including scientist and historians know that ancient Nubians were Nilo Sharan. Why are you so anti Nilotes?

I don't know what "biast" is but yes Nubians were and still are Nilosaharan speakers. That being said Nubians are to Nilosaharans are what Turks are to the Turkic language family. And i'm not "anti-Nilote" so if you don't have anything intelligent to say then i'd suggest you avoid mentioning me.

 

[Nilotic]

Migrations across the Red Sea happened as early as the stone age, with Haplogroup J being prevalent across Sudan and the Northern horn but for some reason you're only associating it with Nubians? Sounds like academic dishonesty at its best and trolling at its worst.

As it relates to the Beja and other populations in the Horn, yes. Prove it in relation to the Nubians. You have your work cut out for you in that regard.

There is no "dishonesty" involved because no evidence for its presence in Nubians prior to the Arab migrations has been provided. I can only be accused of "dishonesty" if the academic sources affirm it and I just refuse to accept it.

Huh? Not sure if this is strawman or trolling but you do realize that not all Afro-Arabs are the same, right? You have the Shaiqiya, formally Nubians which were Arabized very recently as they voluntarily adopted Arabic, the Rufaa which trace their ancestry to Bedouin immigrants, and the Jaalis who are more or less Nubians that have alleged Hijazi roots.

Define "recently" and provide the historical source (s) on this particular claim. Refute the genetic study I provided that detailed the extensive Arab introgression that the Nubians experienced, the time-frame in which it took place and the Afro-Arabs that resulted from that.

Voluntarily giving up your identity is actually worse, but if you want to claim that it happened that way (in opposition to genetic data) then by all means, please continue.

Ah yes, and that's why Dinka women bleach their skin and wear silky wigs while wealthy Dinka men are notorious for marrying pale Egyptian peasants... Also you clearly lack basic knowledge on Nubian history despite it being well-recorded. The Baqt treaty alone refutes your insane theories. Not sure if you're just ignorant or a troll projecting his insecurities.

Skin bleaching is no more prevalent in South Sudan than it is in other parts of Africa, and this is why it's been discussed so extensively on this forum. South Sudanese are pushing back against skin-bleaching and the small minority that engage in it.

A study was conducted on Sudanese undergraduate female students (Gezira University) and it found that 74.4 % of the females used skin bleaching products, so it seems to be something your population grapples with as well.

Source:

Use of Skin-Whitening Products by Sudanese Undergraduate Females: a Survey | Request PDF

Request PDF | Use of Skin-Whitening Products by Sudanese Undergraduate Females: a Survey | Background Although skin-whitening products are commonly used among dark-skinned women of African descent, research on the frequency with which... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on...

www.researchgate.net

I have honestly never heard of Dinka men marrying Egyptian women at all let alone in statistically significant numbers. It's not a thing; we're not exactly fans of Arabs.

The Baqt does not refute anything I've said because I already acknowledged that the demographic shift seems to have been facilitated by a process of gradual infiltration.

I already posted the illustration of Rufaa slave raiders attacking a Dinka village and you went on to deny the fact that they were Dinka. Are the Dinka a non-Nilotic Fertit tribe? Both Dinka and Nuer were notoriously enslaved by Northerners, even the Acholi mock the subjugation that your ancestors faced.

No, what you did was make the claim that the illustration related to Dinka people being raided for slaves and you failed to provide the requested evidence when I asked you to provide the provenance of that painting and failed to link a source with clear references to the Dinka.

The Dinka and Nuer fought off the Afro-Arabs and this is precisely why the epicentre of the slave trade was concentrated in Western Bahr El Ghazal and parts of Western Equatoria instead of the Dinka-Nuer heartlands.

The Acholi are literally the descendants of Anyuak tribes people, so forgive me for not immediately believing you on this claim. None of the tribes in Kenya or Uganda could have done what we did, so I honestly would laugh at them if they dared to mock us on this issue.

That's a naïve assumption. Most Kenyans I met (both in Nairobi and the states) only speak Swahili and English. South Sudanese diaspora is already massive with many not speaking their tribal language, it'll only increase as the country prospers and globalizes, especially since the business sector of South Sudan is dominated by foreign companies.

What's truly naive is the idea that anecdotes serve as real evidence. Now, please provide evidence that the Kikuyu and Luo languages are on the verge of being extinct or are experiencing a death of sorts.

We will not give up our languages under any circumstances.

Speaking Arabic as a lingua-franca and identifying as Arab are not completely different things. After all, it's a non-racial linguistic identity like Hispanic. Not provided anything? Well if you knew how to use google and do your own research you'd see the Ababda alone makeup 10% of Bejas, and the major Shukria clan are predominately Arabized Bejas with some Nubian roots. Anyways the Hadendowa, Bishari, etc identify with their tribe first and foremost, and they acknowledge both their Beja and Arab roots. A bit ironic how you acknowledge that these groups have Arab ancestry but you want them to abandon it. Meanwhile you have Islamic ethnic groups across the world from Senegal, Nigeria, and Pakistan that claim Arab roots for religious reasons and I don't see you fixated on it.

Most South Sudanese speak a variant of Arabic and we don't subscribe to an Arab identity so the two are not inextricably linked -- especially if the population holds onto to its own identity.

I acknowledge that the Afro-Arabs actually have significant Arab ancestry in genetic and cultural terms and that this was permitted by the Nubians.

10% is certainly not statistically irrelevant, so I'll acknowledge that I'm wrong on this issue as it relates to the Beja.

The non-Arab groups that claim a link to the Prophet are making a mistake.

I stand corrected, but you're still very active in it and proceed to write me replies even after saying that we should just disagree and end it.

I actually want to end this entire exchange but not if lies are put out into emission relating to the Dinka-Nuer people and other Nilotics.

 

[Asaana]

I don't have the energy to read another wall of text, but I appreciate the effort.

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

Nilo Sharan and Nilote pretty much the same thing, similar groups of people saperated by Geography, just like Beja and Somali.

 

[Nilotic]

I have provided studies and sources for my claims all throughout this thread and I now intend on annealing my assertion that the Nilotics were not the primary victims of the slave trade due to our resistance.

This is Western Bahr El Ghazal -- the epicentre of the slave trade and home of the Fertit:

The main victims of the Sudanese slave trade were the Fertit, Jur and the Bongo -- as attested by the historical record:

Concentrations of zaribas in the Bahr-al Ghazal meant the continual arrival of large numbers of petty Arab slave traders in the region from Darfur and Kordofan. They brought with them more of the commodities needed by the slave agents who raided the people. It was estimated that 80, 000 were taken from Bahr-al Ghazal alone. Most of the victims were from the Bongo, the Jur and the Fertit. The most prominent slave traders included Abu Gurun at Tonj, Ghattas at Rumbek and Tonj, Ali Kurshid at Wau and the famous Zubeir Rahma Mansur at Daim Zubeir (Santandrea 1964: 29-30). Besides weak people like the Bongo and the Fertit, the northernmost Azande became victims of the slave raids. However, powerful Azande kings along the Nile-Congo divide vowed to confront the slave traders (Schweinfurth 1873: 417-18. Despite the arms superiority of the slave traders, the Azande organised well-developed armies to mount resistance (Evans Pritchard 1971: 263). The Azande, under the courageous of the Avongara, fought numerous battles and wars with the slave traders from the 1870s. They inflicted heavy casualties on the Arab slave traders, to the extent that these traders sought alliances and trade agreements with the Avongara kings. (Self-Determination and Secession in Africa: The Post-Colonial State)

Slave traders invaded the area and easily subjugated the weak tribes living between the Dinka and the Azande. Stocks of Ivory were exhausted, and traders shifted to taking slaves. The Bahr-al Ghazal region was seriously exposed to a predatory slave trade to an extraordinarily high rate and much higher than that recorded in the Upper Nile. (Self-Determination and Secession in Africa: The Post-Colonial State)

By the middle of the 1860s and the early 1870s, the military and commercial networks were expanded throughout the South by both Northern Sudanese and Turko-Egyptian officials, sometimes working in competition, but often working in conjunction with each other. Thus from the point of view of Southern peoples... there was little to distinguish between the two groups of exploiters and plunderers... In Bahr El Ghazal the Ja'ali merchant, Zubeir Rahma Mansour reigned supremed, uprooting the Fertit tribes, developing and expanding the administrative centres and slave routes through Bahr El Ghazal, Darfur and Kordofan. (War of Visions: Conflict of Identities in the Sudan

The slave trade was a more prominent feature in population dispersal in 19th century Bahr-el Ghazal than in the eastern Plains. Many communities fled to stronger neighbours for protection against the slave trade: some to the Zande kingdom, others absorbed into Dinka lineages, still others group around the new men who acquired firearms and adopted the new methods of warfare. The Dinka Awutiek, known in the colonial literature as "Chak Chak", was the product of a mixed marriage, the son of a Jur mother. As the owner of a number of rifles, he offered protection to his neighbours in the slaving zone, receiving Ndogo, Woro Fartit refugees from the Mahdist incursions of 1885....(South Sudan: A new History for a New Nation, Douglas H. Johnson)

Nilotic resistance to Turko-Egyptian and Afro-Arab slave raids:

The Shilluk kingdom attacked Khurshid's troops but later opened the way for his expedition to proceed towards the confluence of the Sobat River with the White Nile. On the return journey, the expedition came under heavy attack by the Shilluk. They recovered the booty and freed most of the slaves Khurshid's expedition had taken. The expedition was forced to retreat northwards with only 200 captives (Holt and Daly 2011: 46). Indeed the Shilluk-sustained resistance hindered the progress of the Turko-Egyptian expeditions to the heart of the Southern Sudan. The failure of Khurshid to subdue the tribes of the Upper Nile region frustrated his main goal of taking many slaves. After the failure, Khurshid redirected his attention to Eastern Sudan.

The resistance of the peoples of Southern Sudan to external forces from the North was sustained over centuries. Thus the Shilluk and other Nilotic groups developed a culture of resistance. They never doubted that the invaders were determined to replace them. They remembered how their ancestors were gradually pushed southwards by waves of invasion by the people of the North. This assumption is justified by scholars such as Sanderson, who confirmed that the Dinka and Nuer had a tradition of resistance to external influence of any kind (Sanderson and Sanderson 1981: 4-8). (Self-Determination and Secession in Africa: The Post-Colonial State)

The Dinka would beat the drums of war... The scouts would go ahead to look for where the Arabs were... The Arabs would stop and sleep, thinking they had left the Dinka behind, but the Dinka... would come and attack them... Some people among them would be captured and the people who had been captured by the Arabs would be released." Chief Biong Mijak recounted that the Arab "would go... and kill any people he found...Then the Dinka would go and search for him and attack him at night and kill his people also."

While the armies of the more professional slave lords were better equipped, the Arabs tribesmen who ventured attacks for slaves, were not much better armed than the Dinka, and oral history has it that there was a relative balance of power between them and the southern tribes. Chief Pagwot Deng characterized Arab-Dinka wars as initially reflecting a balance that was later disturbed by Arab acquisition of modern arms: "The strength of the Arabs came only recently when he found his horses and his guns. In the past... [t]he Arabs destroyed us but we also destroyed them... They captured our people and we captured their people. This is why there are some Arabs in our Dinkaland today. His man is with us and our man is with him."

Nevertheless, there can be no comparison between the massive destruction and indignity inflicted on the South by institutionalized slavery and the relatively insignificant numbers that the Southerners captured among the invaders from the North. (War of Visions: Conflict of Identities in the Sudan)

Did the Nilotics suffer slave raids? The answer is yes, and I will provide quotations to that effect... but we resisted and this is why the Fertit and other non-Nilotics were the main victims of that scourge.

This is why Western Bahr El Ghazal is the least populous state in South Sudan today by a significant margin:

The Dinka refer to the Turko-Egyptian and Mahdist periods as the time when "the world was spoiled", an abomination of which they speak with consistency and vividness. In the extensive interviews conducted by the author with Dinka chiefs and elders about the past, present, and future of their people in the context of the Sudan, this theme in their collective memory emerged as a vital factor, which nourishes their identity of resistance to the Arab-Islamic North. They remember the Madhist revolution as first claiming to rescue the people from the repressions and exploitation of Turko-Egyptian rule, but then turning out to be itself a major cause of destruction. (War of Visions: Conflict of Identities in the Sudan)

Chief Makuei Bilkuei made the point almost obsessively: "It was Ansar [Mahdist followers] who destroyed the Country...That is what is called the spoiling of the world... Yes [they] would come with camels and donkeys and mules and guns... That's how [they] killed people... They destroyed areas until [they] reached us here. Then [they] took the people and and sold them... They said, 'La Illah, ila Allah, Muhammed Rasul Allah.' [There is no God but the one God and Muhammed is God's messenger]. That was the way they chanted while they slaughtered and slaughtered and slaughtered." (War of Visions: Conflict of Identities in the Sudan)

Major Titherington, one of the earliest British administrators in Dinkaland, wrote that the social system and personal outlook of the Raik Dinka were in a state of deterioration as a result of the continued hurrying they had received from the Arab slave traders and of the demoralising effects of the invasions they had received during the half-century preceding British rule. "They lost hundreds of thousands of cattle; men, women, and children in the thousands were slaughtered, carried off into slavery, or died of famine; but the survivors kept alive in the deepest swamps, bravely attacked the raiders when they could, and nursed that loathing and contempt for the stranger and all his ways that even now they are just losing."

 

[Arma]

Very informative thread. Welcome to Sspot @Nilotic

 

[Nomadite]

The Afro-Arabs are partially of Nubian ancestry and I'm clearly referring to them in my reference to identity and cultural practice; the Afro-Arabs are demographically, politically, culturally and economically the dominant power in Sudan.

The Nubians have never explained exactly just how it is they allowed that situation to transpire when this demographic change was apparently merely a process of Arab infiltration over the centuries; that actually makes it worse...

..The Nubians became marginal in their own land because they dropped the ball and allowed Arab men to marry their daughters en mass -- producing the Afro-Arabs that now rule Sudan.

"Hunter gatherers"? We're pastoralists; Nilotics have been pastoralists for thousands of years and it's what defines us; mere "hunter gathers" would not have mounted the sort of dogged resistance my people put up.

Should I now question your Sudo credentials because of your equally spotty knowledge on Southern tribes?

The Beja may have a small band of clans that have unfortunately succumbed to Arabization, but it pales in comparison to what happened to the Nubians.


What Kenyan dude?

I'm a pure Dinka -- a legitimate child of the white and blue Nile. I loathe social media for a whole host of reasons, and I wouldn't be caught dead making use of it. Please direct the mods to do an IP check.

I only heard about people from Wadi Halfa (and how light they were) as a child so I couldn't be entirely sure the info I received on them was correct, so I retracted it.

PS: I must commend you for at least acknowledging that we are Sudanese, and that the geographical prefix in our National name does not somehow invalidate our Sudanese identity -- as some people insist on doing.

We'll just have to agree to disagree because this Sudo debate (on a Somali forum) is becoming undignified; they must think we're weirdos.

They allowed arab men to take their daughters? What is this cuck shit, please elaborate more

 

[Nomadite]

I don't have the energy to read another wall of text, but I appreciate the effort.

Fam i dont even think you once cited sources for your claims.

 

[Asaana]

Fam i dont even think you once cited sources for your claims.

I literally posted a generic report and sourced image from the 19th century. If you have any specific question feel free to ask but if you just wanna bark then piss off

 

[Asaana]

They allowed arab men to take their daughters? What is this cuck shit, please elaborate more

Just ask your Tutsi grandfather that gave your mom to a Hutu lol. It's ironic how you cried about my lack of sources but believe his unsourced one liner troll statement.

Anyways I respect Nilotic for admitting that his knowledge on Northerners is shabby. Those same "Afro-Arabs" he's referring to language shifted for administrative reasons not "centuries of intermarriage" - that's why tribes closer to Khartoum have been speaking Arabic longer with the Jaali Nubian dialect going extinct as recently as the late 19th century (source: Kingdoms of the Sudan, R. S. O'Fahey 1974).

As for Haplogroup-J it's common for all Northern Cushites and predates both the Nubian and Arab identities. source

 

[Nilotic]

They allowed arab men to take their daughters? What is this cuck shit, please elaborate more

I base it on primary sources from the period, particularly Ibn Khaldun. Here are the citations.

There is no better summary of the impact of the Arab nomadic tribes than that given by the great historian Ibn Khaldun:


With the Nubians' conversion to Islam the payment of the jizya (capital tax) ceased. Then several clans of the Juhayna Arabs spread over their country and settled in it; they assumed power and filled the land with rapine and disorder. At first the kings of Nubia tried to repulse them by force but they failed in it; so they changed their tactics and tried to win them over by offering their daughters in marriage. Thus was their kingdom disintegrated, for it passed to the sons of the Juhayna from their Nubian mothers according to the non-Arab practice of inheritance by the sister and her sons. So their kingdom fell to pieces and their country was inherited by the nomad Arabs of the Juhayna."(The Cambridge History of Africa, Vol. 2: c. 500 B.C.-A.D. 1050 (Volume 2)

Supporting evidence from medieval sourced such as Ibn Khaldun (Hassan 1967a:127) tells us that as the Christian kingdoms of Nubia were collapsing, many Nubian women were given in marriage to Arabs. Kanz al-Dawla who was both of Dongolawi and Arab descent and from whom the Kenuz take their name, after being made king of Dongola in the late fourteenth century, subsequently retired with his followers to estates near Aswan (Hassan 1967a:119). (The Archaeological and Linguistic Reconstruction of African History)

Due to Nubian customs of matrilineal succession, lands increasingly passed into Arab hands when Nubian women married Arab men who followed laws of patrilineal succession and inheritance. Despite the resistance of Nubians against this gradual dispossession of their lands, Arab concepts of ownership prevailed, and by the fourteenth century had replaced preexisting Nubian concepts of land ownership. (Muslim Societies in Africa: A Historical Anthropology)

It was common for Arab tribesman, who were militarily superior to Nubians, to marry Nubian women (Hasan 1967:127) from Dongola in the Sudan. (Nubians and the Nubian Language in Contemporary Egypt: A Case of Cultural and Linguistic Contact)

Despite the treaty, many nomadic Arab tribes and Muslim traders crossed into Sudan, using marriage ties with Nubian women so they could settle in Sudan Werner Anderson, Anderson & Wheeler 2000:42).(The African Christian and Islam

The genetic studies also play a role.

PS: Apologies for the late response.

 

[Nilotic]

Just ask your Tutsi grandfather that gave your mom to a Hutu lol. It's ironic how you cried about my lack of sources but believe his unsourced one liner troll statement.

Except that I provided sources for my claims all throughout in this thread in my exchanges with you -- accusations of trolling or derangement notwithstanding.

Anyways I respect Nilotic for admitting that his knowledge on Northerners is shabby. Those same "Afro-Arabs" he's referring to language shifted for administrative reasons not "centuries of intermarriage" - that's why tribes closer to Khartoum have been speaking Arabic longer with the Jaali Nubian dialect going extinct as recently as the late 19th century (source: Kingdoms of the Sudan, R. S. O'Fahey 1974).

I may not know the details of Nubian and Beja clans, however, unlike you I do know that the Nubians are descendants of the Nubae-Nobatae of the Western Desert mentioned by Greco-Roman sources.

You didn't provide any evidence at all that the Nubae-Nobatae (acknowledged as ancient Nubians by historians) somehow became extinct in the 19th century. You should retract that claim because it makes absolutely no sense.



Per the figures you provided in this exchange... at least 90% of the Beja identity primarily with their own unique identity, and this is virtually the exact inverse of the Nubians in Sudan. I was under the mistaken impression that the entirety of the Beja identified primarily with their tribe, so I conceded that I was wrong on that very specific point.

This paragraph captures the decline of Nubian power, culture and language, and the ascension of Arabs and Arabic.

The rather peaceful relationship that prevailed between the Nubians and Fatimid rulers of Egypt came to an end with the fall of the latter in the twelfth century. Under the Ayyubids, political power in Egypt was in the hands of orthodox Muslims, the Sunni. Nubia rebelled against Salah il Din sent military expeditions to crush the rebellion, but it was not until the thirteenth century, when Egypt was ruled by the Mamluks, that Nubia surrendered to the rulers of Egypt (Maqrizi 1933: 621-23). Nubia then began a new Islamic era. Muslim rulers reigned in Nubia until the conquest of Egypt in 1517 by Sultan Selim, the Ottoman Turk (Budge 1928:106). As Islam spread in Egypt, Arabic supplanted Coptic and became the language of intellectuals, Muslims and non-Muslim alike. Arabic began to be used in Coptic churches. Since Nubian churches followed the lead of the Egyptian Coptic churche, Arabic was also used in Nubian church services (Mahmoud 1963: 127). The Nubian language, however, continued to the official language until Christian Nubia became Islamic in the fourteenth century. It was at this time, according to Ibn Khaldun, that many Arabs began to settle in the land of Nubia (1965:922-23). While some Arabs may have adopted the Nubian language, in far more cases, Nubians adopted Arabic. "Nubians were converted from an unknown indigenous religion to Christianity in the middle 6th century AD.... parts of Nubia remained Christian against a gradual incursion of Islam until the 14th century when the entire Nubia became Muslim" (Kennedy & Fahim 1974: 206). At that time, Arabic became the official language and gradually Nubian stopped being written. (Nubians and the Nubian Language in Contemporary Egypt: A Case of Cultural and Linguistic Contact)

As for Haplogroup-J it's common for all Northern Cushites and predates both the Nubian and Arab identities

A fait accompli, is it?

You act as though you've already proven that Nubians were indeed "Northern Cushites" and that they acquired Y-DNA J in the 3000 year old admixture event that "Cushites" and Ethio-Semites underwent. You've proven no such thing.

The Arab admixture in Sudanese Arabs is male mediated -- which means that their father to son genetic profile is majority Arab.

Y-DNA J (the Arab clades) is the most dominant paternal marker in Nubians and Sudanese Arabs and it's completely absent in all medieval 'Nubian' samples. The Arab specific clade of Y-DNA J is obviously a relatively recent paternal marker that owes its presence in Nubians and Sudanese Arabs to an admixture event that took place 700 years ago.

The maternal profile of Sudanese Arabs is almost entirely (more than 80%) Nilo-Saharan; this is completely different to the "Cushitic"/Afro-Semitic populations such as Somalis and Ethiopians. The Habash owe 48% of their maternal profile to Eurasians while 52% is SSA. Somalis have a similar ratio.


There is no evidence of haplogroup J in Nubian populations prior to 1315 AD, and the Beja cannot be used as proxy for its existence in the Nubian population because the Beja owe their admixture to an entirely different admixture event; one that occurred considerably earlier -> 3000 years ago.

According to the genetic paper I provided, the Danagla and Mahas Nubians may have received non-Arab Eurasian admixture 56 generations ago, whereas the Beja received Eurasian admixture 107 generations ago.

The Halfawieen only received Eurasian admixture 19 generations ago. Stop treating the two populations as virtual synonyms due to the effects of the Arab infiltrations.


You have completely failed to provide an explanation for when a supposedly "Cushitic" population was language shifted to a Nilo-Saharan one.

The Nubian identity was already formed long before the Arab infiltrations brought haplo J to the Nubian population; the Nubians were mentioned In Strabo's Geographica in 7 BC.

 

[Asaana]

I have provided studies and sources for my claims all throughout this thread and I now intend on annealing my assertion that the Nilotics were not the primary victims of the slave trade due to our resistance.

This is Western Bahr El Ghazal -- the epicentre of the slave trade and home of the Fertit:

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The main victims of the Sudanese slave trade were the Fertit, Jur and the Bongo -- as attested by the historical record:










Nilotic resistance to Turko-Egyptian and Afro-Arab slave raids:







Did the Nilotics suffer slave raids? The answer is yes, and I will provide quotations to that effect... but we resisted and this is why the Fertit and other non-Nilotics were the main victims of that scourge.

This is why Western Bahr El Ghazal is the least populous state in South Sudan today by a significant margin:

Yeah I don’t buy the gun excuse, Nilotes were just worse at fighting wars. This is why as recently as the 90s they often found themselves victims of slavery despite being armed by Israel and the west.

I paid $210 (£143) for the three of them to an Arab trader called Noor. Nyamada Deng and her two children were slaves and the money I paid secured their release. I have a picture of Nyamada and her children on my desk and, in one of the drawers, the receipt in Arabic given to me after I paid the money.

Nyamada and her children were among a group of 203 slaves recently returned to their Dinka tribal homeland by Noor, the Arab trader. They reached Bahr el Gazal (Gazelle River) province in southern Sudan, now threatened by famine, after walking for many days from villages in Southern Kordofan province where they had provided unpaid labour on Arab farms and in Arab homes.

They had been beaten and maltreated. Some of the women, among them Nyamada, had been subjected to genital mutilation and forced into concubinage. When I first came across Nyamada and her fellow-slaves they were sitting in the shade of a grove of mango trees near Wungiir, a straggle of thatched mud huts far removed from anything that might in the West be known as civilisation.

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Thankfully this practice ended, but sadly Dinka, Nuer, and Shilluk women in the North are notorious for engaging in prostitution (sometimes even for free) and working as maids for meager wages. The men work as laborers, and I believe they get paid but I know that historically they work for food not money; I heard from a horner friend whose mother invested in S. Sudan shortly after independence that workers only expect food not money so unfortunately this disgusting practice last(ed) longer than I expected.