Markus Ho-ehne Discussion On PL/SL/SSC Conflict

[repo]

Than why didn't Puntland mighty army of 2500 recruits did not retake Mogadishu from ICU themselves and instead they polished the shoes of Ethiopian Army to invading Mogadishu?


AY might been thirsty for power but he thought first and foremost was to guarantee the security of his home state Puntland.

It's clear I'm dealing with a moron here. You said Ethiopia intervened to help Puntland, the fact is they didn't. Ethiopia's role was to oust the ICU. A country does not revolve its foreign policy around a single individual.

 

[Kanan]

It's clear I'm dealing with a moron here. You said Ethiopia intervened to help Puntland, the fact is they didn't. Ethiopia's role was to oust the ICU. A country does not revolve its foreign policy around a single individual.

Are you going to tell me with a straight face AY did not call upon Ethiopian troops to invade Mogadishu? Who propped up AY government wasn't Puntland?


Continue changing the goal post that appears to be the only thing you're good at.

 

[repo]

Are you going to tell me with a straight face AY did not call upon Ethiopian troops to invade Mogadishu? Who propped up AY government wasn't Puntland?


Continue changing the goal post that appears to be the only thing you're good at.

It's you who is moving the goal post. You said Ethiopia invaded to help Puntland. That's not true. Ethiopia invaded to protect the TFG in Baidoa then went to oust to ICU in Mogadishu to prop it up. You are dense enough to believe ICU overrunning Puntland was the reason for the invasion, so I don't really no where we go from here.

 

[Kanan]

It's you who is moving the goal post. You said Ethiopia invaded to help Puntland. That's not true. Ethiopia invaded to protect the TFG in Baidoa then went to oust to ICU in Mogadishu to prop it up. You are dense enough to believe ICU overrunning Puntland was the reason for the invasion, so I don't really no where we go from here.

And who was the president of TFG who gave the green light for Ethiopia to invade Mogadishu and then stepped down after his plan backfired with emergence of Al Shabaab and a destroyed Capital?


Just like Cadde AY created the problem and bolted back to Puntland for retirement.

 

[repo]

And who was the president of TFG who gave the green light for Ethiopia to invade Mogadishu and then stepped down after his plan backfired with emergence of Al Shabaab and a destroyed Capital?


Just like Cadde AY created the problem and bolted back to Puntland for retirement.

The ICU were committing suicide bombings before Ethiopians entered and the capital was destroyed in 4 months of fighting in 1991. Aside from that, you've been wrong twice in this thread already. You are moving goal posts to save face.

Cadde Muuse's problem was solved but an Isaaq took the helm and turned what was a resource conflict into a multi theater terror war. He is the Emir till this day, Omar Mohamed Aden, HJ.

 

[InaShaqalle]

Caade muse aun wa laandhere Osman Mohamud ka xishow Reerka 100/70 daago gobolka bari wa ninka Abdullahi yusuf barida dhulka ugu dufte 2002... Tinle and dubeeys are both alshabab sympathizers .... In 2014 Tinle alshabab killed over 100 puntland soldiers station in afurur.....

What's your response @DR OSMAN

 

[Kanan]

The ICU were committing suicide bombings before Ethiopians entered and the capital was destroyed in 4 months of fighting in 1991. Aside from that, you've been wrong twice in this thread already. You are moving goal posts to prove a non existing point.

Cadde Muuse's problem was solved but an Isaaq took the helm and turned what was a resource conflict into a multi theater terror war. He is the Emir till this day, Omar Mohamed Aden, HJ.

The ICU defeated warlords and brought stability to Mogadishu. There was radical faction with ICU ( Al Shabaab ) but they were a minority. The majority have been moderates with conflicting views to how governor Somalia using Sharia law. AY with Ethiopian intervention destroyed ICU and strengthen Al shabaab to takeover. The defeated now weak moderate factions within ICU joined the TFG.


So in essence it was AY who created Al shabaab with his reckless handling of ICU.

 

[Kanan]

Cadde Muuse's problem was solved but an Isaaq took the helm and turned what was a resource conflict into a multi theater terror war. He is the Emir till this day, Omar Mohamed Aden, HJ.

Warsangali are still split some of them support AS/ISIS some of them support Puntland. So no the problem persist until now and the evidence is clear with majority of foot soldiers being Warsans or Cali Salebaan.



I gotta say you got a lot of nerve to deny such events to cover up Cadde's fatal mistakes that Puntland is reeling from until now.

 

[repo]

The ICU defeated warlords and brought stability to Mogadishu. There was radical faction with ICU ( Al Shabaab ) but they were a minority. The majority have been moderates with conflicting views to how governor Somalia using Sharia law. AY with Ethiopian intervention destroyed ICU and strengthen Al shabaab to takeover. The defeated now weak moderate factions within ICU joined the TFG.


So in essence it was AY who created Al shabaab with his reckless handling of ICU.

Shabaab already existed and its umbrella organization was carrying out suicide bombings against the TFG before Ethiopia ever invaded. That's not moderate.

Edited tribal stuff.

 

[repo]

Warsangali are still split some of them support AS/ISIS some of them support Puntland. So no the problem persist until now and the evidence is clear with majority of foot soldiers being Warsans or Cali Salebaan.

That's more fiction, neither Shabaab or ISIS control any villages nor do you have any reliable evidence Darood make up Shabaab as you previously said.

 

[Kanan]

Shabaab already existed and its umbrella organization was carrying out suicide bombings against the TFG before Ethiopia ever invaded. That's not moderate.

Funny enough, Shabaab's first Emir was an Isaaq too. Your people are disproportionately represented in the Shabaab hierarchy.

How do you explain the explosu

 

[Kanan]

Shabaab already existed and its umbrella organization was carrying out suicide bombings against the TFG before Ethiopia ever invaded. That's not moderate.

Funny enough, Shabaab's first Emir was an Isaaq too. Your people are disproportionately represented in the Shabaab hierarchy.

How do you explain the explosion of Al Shabaab from 700 to 5000 fighters?


Also you conveniently went for the head of Al shabaab post 2008 because he was Isaaq but when current Al Shabaab leader is Dir you never hold him responsible for the insurgency in Galgala.


FYI the first leader of Al shabaab is Aden Xashi Ceyrow a Hawiye, but I understand it doesn't fit your narrative so you head straight to Godane. The mind games you play on here.

 

[Kanan]

That's more fiction, neither Shabaab or ISIS control any villages nor do you have any reliable evidence Darood make up Shabaab as you previously said.

The very same report that list Isaaq Gacanyare of Al Shabaab lists dozens of officials, commanders, Emirs who belong to different Darood sub clans.


How much you wanna bet the Darood Members outnumber Isaaq?

 

[Enlightenednomad]

And who was the president of TFG who gave the green light for Ethiopia to invade Mogadishu and then stepped down after his plan backfired with emergence of Al Shabaab and a destroyed Capital?


Just like Cadde AY created the problem and bolted back to Puntland for retirement.

Abdullahi Yusuf's appetite to forcefully confront the ICU had no bearing on the Pentagon sanctioned Ethiopian invasion of Mogadishu. The invasion would have gone through whether he was president or not. Ethiopia was acting in its own self interest when it committed to this invasion (or should I say Meles's then embattled EPRDF government) as a result of US coercion.

This assertion that Ethiopia acted upon his invitation doesn't check out logically to me. Why would Ethiopia act upon the invitation of an individual who presided over a then largely powerless Transitional government that couldn't even operate out of it's capital city?

You can certainly argue that he used the invasion to fulfill his agenda.

​

WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. Twisted Ethiopia’s Arm to Invade Somalia​

U.S. officials were lying when they claimed to have attempted to restrain Ethiopia from invading neighboring Somalia in late 2006. Newly unveiled documents show that “the Bush Administration pushed Ethiopia to invade Somalia with an eye on crushing the Union of Islamic Courts,” which had established relative peace in much of the country. The U.S. also tried to assemble a “coalition of the willing” to overthrow Robert Mugabe’s government in Zimbabwe.


By mid 2007, the 50,000 Ethiopian troops that invaded Somalia in late 2006 found themselves increasingly bogged down, facing much fiercer resistance than they had bargained for as Somalis of all stripes temporarily put aside their differences to stand together against the outside invader.


As the military incursion turned increasingly sour, then US Under Secretary of State for Africa, Jendayi Frazer, who taught at the University of Denver’s Korbel School of International Studies in the 1990s, insisted that, prior to the invasion, the United States had counseled caution and that Washington had warned Ethiopia not to use military force against Somalia. Frazer was a close collaborator with former U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, for whom there also is a strong University of Denver connection. Frazer certainly tried to distance the United States from responsibility for the Ethiopian invasion in a number of interviews she gave to the media at the time.


But one of the released WikiLeaks cables, suggests a different picture, one that implicates Frazer in pressing Ethiopia’s President Meles Zenawi to invade its neighbor. The content of the cable is being widely discussed in the African media. It exposes a secret deal cut between the United States and Ethiopia to invade Somalia.


If accurate — and there is no reason to believe the contrary — the cable suggests that Ethiopia had no intention of invading Somalia in 2006 but was encouraged/pressured to do so by the United States which pushed Ethiopia behind the scenes. Already bogged down in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan at the time, the Bush Administration pushed Ethiopia to invade Somalia with an eye on crushing the Union of Islamic Courts, which was gaining strength in Somalia at the time.



At the time of the invasion there was little doubt that the Ethiopian military incursion was “made in Washington.” Like so many other WikiLeaks cables, this one merely puts a dot on the “i” or crosses the “t” on what was generally known, although it does give specific information about Jendayi Frazer’s deep involvement in the affair.


According to the cable, as the main U.S. State Department representative in Africa, Frazer played a key role, spearheading what amounted to a U.S.-led proxy war in conjunction with the Pentagon. At the same time that she was pushing the Ethiopians to attack, Frazer was laying the groundwork both for the attack in the U.S. media and for a cover-up, by claiming that although the United States did not support Ethiopian military action, she could understand “the Somali threat” and why Ethiopia might find it necessary to go to war.


Frazer spread rumors of a possible jihadist takeover in Somalia that would threaten Ethiopian security. Turns out that media performance was little more than a smokescreen. The U.S. military had been preparing Ethiopia for the invasion, providing military aid and training Ethiopian troops. Then on December 4, 2006, CENTCOM Commander, General John Abizaid was in Addis Ababa on what was described as “a courtesy call.” Instead, the plans for the invasion were finalized.


At the time of the Somali invasion, Zenawi found himself in trouble. He was facing growing criticism for the wave of repression he had unleashed against domestic Ethiopian critics of his rule that had included mass arrests, the massacres of hundreds of protesters and the jailing of virtually all the country’s opposition leaders. By the spring of 2006 there was a bill before the U.S. Congress to cut off aid to Zenawi unless Ethiopia’s human rights record improved. (His human rights record, by the way, has not improved since. Given how the United States and NATO view Ethiopia’s strategic role in the “war on terrorism” and the scramble for African mineral and energy resources, Western support for Zenawi has only increased in recent years).


In 2006, dependent on U.S. support to maintain power in face of a shrinking political base at home — a situation many U.S. allies in the Third World find themselves — and against his better judgement, Zenawi apparently caved to Frazer’s pressure. Nor was this the first time that Frazer had tried to instigate a U.S. proxy war in Africa. Earlier as U.S. ambassador to South Africa, she had tried to put together a “coalition of the willing” to overthrow Mugabe’s regime in Zimbabwe, an initiative that did not sit so well with South Africa’s post-apartheid government and went nowhere.


The 2006 war in Somalia did not go well either for the United States or Ethiopia. Recently a State Department spokesperson, Donald Yamamoto, admitted that the whole idea was “a big mistake,” obliquely admitting U.S. responsibility for the invasion. It resulted in 20,000 deaths and according to some reports, left up to 2 million Somalis homeless. The 50,000 Ethiopian invasion force, which had expected a cake walk, instead ran into a buzz saw of Somali resistance, got bogged down and soon withdrew with its tail between its legs. The political result of the invasion was predictable: the generally more moderate Union of Islamic Courts was weakened, but it was soon replaced in Somalia by far more radical and militant Islamic groups with a more openly anti-American agenda.


As the situation deteriorated, in an attempt to cover both the U.S. and her own role, Frazer then turned on Zenawi, trying to distance herself from fiasco using an old and tried diplomatic trick: outright lying. Now that the invasion had turned sour, she changed her tune, arguing in the media, that both she and the State Department had tried to hold back the Ethiopians, discouraging them from invading rather than pushing them to attack. The WikiLeaks cable tells quite a different story. In 2009, the Ethiopian forces withdrew, leaving Somalia in a bigger mess and more unstable than when their troops went in three years prior. Seems to be a pattern here?


Rob Prince is the publisher of the Colorado Progressive Jewish News

WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. Twisted Ethiopia's Arm to Invade Somalia - Global Research

U.S. officials were lying when they claimed to have attempted to restrain Ethiopia from invading neighboring Somalia in late 2006. Newly unveiled documents show that “the Bush Administration pushed Ethiopia to invade Somalia with an eye on crushing the Union of Islamic Courts,” which had...

www.globalresearch.ca

US encouraged Ethiopian invasion of Somalia: UN meeting memo with Jenday Frazer, Secretary of State for African Affairs, 2006 - WikiLeaks

wikileaks.org

 

[Kanan]

Abdullahi Yusuf's appetite to forcefully confront the ICU had no bearing on the Pentagon sanctioned Ethiopian invasion of Mogadishu. The invasion would have gone through whether he was president or not. Ethiopia was acting in its own self interest when it committed to this invasion (or should I say Meles's then embattled EPRDF government) as a result of US coercion.

This assertion that Ethiopia acted upon his invitation doesn't check out logically to me. Why would Ethiopia act upon the invitation of an individual who presided over a then largely powerless Transitional government that couldn't even operate out of it's capital city?

You can certainly argue that he used the invasion to fulfill his agenda.

​

WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. Twisted Ethiopia’s Arm to Invade Somalia​

WikiLeaks Reveals U.S. Twisted Ethiopia's Arm to Invade Somalia - Global Research

U.S. officials were lying when they claimed to have attempted to restrain Ethiopia from invading neighboring Somalia in late 2006. Newly unveiled documents show that “the Bush Administration pushed Ethiopia to invade Somalia with an eye on crushing the Union of Islamic Courts,” which had...

www.globalresearch.ca

US encouraged Ethiopian invasion of Somalia: UN meeting memo with Jenday Frazer, Secretary of State for African Affairs, 2006 - WikiLeaks

wikileaks.org

Off course it has everything to do with it are you kidding me. ICU had a large paramagnetic moderate wing who was engaged in peace talks under IC sponsorship. AY refused to negotiate and went for the nuclear option calling in Ethiopian army this transformed the conflict into a battle between Somali Nationalist Islamist vs Christian Ethiopian army.

This conflict has weakened the moderate wing and allowed Al Shabaab to expand astronomically by the time AY resigned Al Shabaab captured south Somalia and adopted guerrilla warfare.






After the ICU defeated a group of CIA-funded warlords and took control of Mogadishu on June 5, 2006, there were immediate divisions and disagreements among the three primary factions composing the ICU leadership 22. The pragmatists were reluctant to endorse Shari`a based on strict Salafist interpretations as demanded by al-Shabab, and tried their best to distance themselves from the extremists’ idea of justice 23. The pragmatists were also concerned about the growing ranks of Ayro’s al-Shabab militia and its eagerness to shelter foreign al-Qa`ida operatives 24.

Pragmatists and Salafist ideologues also disagreed on various other issues, including the status of women and what the ICU’s official stance should be toward the secular TFG and its Western supporters. For obvious religious and political reasons, al-Shabab flatly rejected the pragmatists’ conciliatory approach to the TFG, which was isolated in Baidoa at the time.

The widening agendas between the Islamist factions in the ICU became irrelevant after Ethiopia invaded Somalia in December 2006. With that development, all Islamists faced a common enemy, and “alliances of convenience” were once again formed to fight the Ethiopian occupation."




"Yusuf, a former warlord who claims to be around 74 years old though he is widely believed to be several years older, has constantly rejected efforts to bring moderate Islamist opposition leaders into the government. Now that he is leaving, many Somalis hope there may be a way to rebuild the government and give the Islamists a meaningful role."



"Yusuf had become increasingly unpopular at home and abroad and was blamed by Washington, Europe and African neighbors for stalling a U.N.-hosted peace process. Yusuf returned to his homeland in the semi-autonomous northern Puntland region."

Somali president quits

Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf resigned on Monday, ending a deadlock at the top of the fractured government and opening the door for a new administration in the anarchic Horn of Africa nation.

www.reuters.com

Somalia's president resigns (Published 2008)

www.nytimes.com

 

[Woke1.4rm.Shibis]

The ICU were committing suicide bombings before Ethiopians entered and the capital was destroyed in 4 months of fighting in 1991. Aside from that, you've been wrong twice in this thread already. You are moving goal posts to save face.

Cadde Muuse's problem was solved but an Isaaq took the helm and turned what was a resource conflict into a multi theater terror war. He is the Emir till this day, Omar Mohamed Aden, HJ.

Fake news the first suicide bomb was off in Baidoa which took the life of your hero abdulahi Yusuf brother Is a great show how you tried to weave through the nacas @Kanan cold calculated questions you fumbled on your first few words

"The icu were committing suicide bombings befor ethiopians entered and the capital was destroyed "

Ciyaal jabartis from the beer doofar variants will blame anyone but their selfs for the Ethiopian invasion and amisom occupation

 

[Mckenzie]

AY was still elected, albeit by self serving warlords and he stuck to the constitution. He doesn't take all blame for the Invasion as our TFG reps didn't do enough to veto the war because they were holding a grudge against ICU. Some MPs threw some chairs at each other in an infamous incident and Sakiin joined the Opposition but that was it until Nuur Cadde was PM. Anyone however can see AY was pro Ethiopia for a long time even accusing his rival Jama Ali Jama of links with terror elements to curry favour with Addis. It was the height of the war on Terror a lucrative excuse to gain a new war chest.

CNN.com - Ethiopian troops cross into Somalia - November 24, 2001

 

[Ascended Farax]

Warsangali are still split some of them support AS/ISIS some of them support Puntland. So no the problem persist until now and the evidence is clear with majority of foot soldiers being Warsans or Cali Salebaan.



I gotta say you got a lot of nerve to deny such events to cover up Cadde's fatal mistakes that Puntland is reeling from until now.

you missing braincells, our cidans smoked out AS including your cousins

 

[reer]

The ICU were committing suicide bombings before Ethiopians entered and the capital was destroyed in 4 months of fighting in 1991. Aside from that, you've been wrong twice in this thread already. You are moving goal posts to save face.

Cadde Muuse's problem was solved but an Isaaq took the helm and turned what was a resource conflict into a multi theater terror war. He is the Emir till this day, Omar Mohamed Aden, HJ.

icu had both islamists and hawiyeists. sharif and hassan dahir aweys were openly tribal. some hawiyes champion them hard. which is understandable.

 

[Kanan]

you missing braincells, our cidans smoked out AS including your cousins

They just attacked Afurur recently.




10 years and counting.