Maay vs Maxaa?

[madaxweyne]

What happened after 1915? We were EXPLOITED for a short period of time, but we were still exploited.


The British and French colonised the North West and the Italians South Somalia.


Whatever you call these agreements, they came about after we fought them and we sadly lost.
They bombed us so it was not a fair fight so there is no shame in admitting the facts.

I don't understand what you mean by this
We where only ruled for 20 or thirty years Algeria was ruled by France for 200 years
Andd France refused to let Algeria go but for us they let us go in 1960

So what?
people have colonised one another for centuries we colonised Maldives and sofala our Ethiopian cousins colonised Yemen and Arabia
Stop acting like a victim of course the white dudes will hate Somalia although James is alright the other guy is a confused dumb old man

Don't take anything personal

 

[Finesse]

I don't understand what you mean by this
We where only ruled for 20 or thirty years Algeria was ruled by France for 200 years
Andd France refused to let Algeria go but for us they let us go in 1960

So what?
people have colonised one another for centuries we colonised Maldives and sofala our Ethiopian cousins colonised Yemen and Arabia
Stop acting like a victim of course the white dudes will hate Somalia although James is alright the other guy is a confused dumb old man

Don't take anything personal

We were colonised and we were robbed.

I mean what I mean by that.


I hail from people who fought the habesha during the Ahmed Gurey campaigns and those who fought the Italians.

I am nobody's victim, I am stating facts.

The European man is trying to colonise our history as evident in this topic and I simply pointed that out.

 

[Apollo]

I haven't actually taken the DNA test on whether I have much neanderthal DNA though I probably do.

Your anger is justified but misplaced. There are indeed many people who have imposed colonialist narratives over Somali history and continue to colonize Somalia but I am not one of them. I am a student of history, that's all.

Grant's divisiveness (especially his efforts to delegitimize Somalis) is accidentally also projected on to you by the newbies. You didn't do anything wrong.

 

[Finesse]

Grant's divisiveness (especially his efforts to delegitimize Somalis) is accidentally also projected on to you by the newbies. You didn't do anything wrong.

I still find it odd that a European has a website called "Abtiris" and he is studying us in-depth as if we are animals or plants.

Anyone else uncomfortable with being under the microscope of a non-Somali.

 

[Apollo]

I still find it odd that a European has a website called "Abtiris" and he is studying us in-depth as if we are animals or plants.

Anyone else uncomfortable with being under the microscope of a non-Somali.

If a Somali owned that website everyone would say that it is biased and full of lies.

 

[madaxweyne]

I haven't actually taken the DNA test on whether I have much neanderthal DNA though I probably do.

Your anger is justified but misplaced. There are indeed many people who have imposed colonialist narratives over Somali history and continue to colonize Somalia but I am not one of them. I am a student of history, that's all.

You seem to be a cool guy who is interested in historical accuracy
The old man however misquotes facts and misinterprets them

You are far from anyone with an agenda you're contributions are mostly positive and I injoy them

 

[Samaalic Era]

What happened after 1915? We were EXPLOITED for a short period of time, but we were still exploited.


The British and French colonised the North West and the Italians South Somalia.


Whatever you call these agreements, they came about after we fought them and we sadly lost.
They bombed us so it was not a fair fight so there is no shame in admitting the facts.

I still find it odd that a European has a website called "Abtiris" and he is studying us in-depth as if we are animals or plants.

Anyone else uncomfortable with being under the microscope of a non-Somali.

Your attacking him to just to score points with Madows. How desperate can you be

 

[madaxweyne]

We were colonised and we were robbed.

I mean what I mean by that.


I hail from people who fought the habesha during the Ahmed Gurey campaigns and those who fought the Italians.

I am nobody's victim, I am stating facts.

The European man is trying to colonise our history as evident in this topic and I simply pointed that out.

You're facts are distorted we where hardly colonised the North was a protectorate for 20 years after a war and struggle with the darwiish

The south was ruled by hobyo geledi and majertin Italy only gained control in the 1920s

Long after most countries where colonised for more then a hundred years like India and Algeria

Stop distorting Somali history to fit with your jarreer victim narrative blm Jarrer bullshit

 

[Finesse]

"hardly"? Did they make us a colony/protectorate or NOT? What are you talking about?

I am not BLM supporter or whatever you wish to call me.

I am a proud Somali who does not appreciate being investigated by foreigners or insulted by fellow Somalis.

Are you guys going to deny that the Italians and the British bombed us??

They committed crimes against Somalis and I will not deny it let alone try to hide it.

 

[madaxweyne]

"hardly"? Did they make us a colony/protectorate or NOT? What are you talking about?

I am not BLM supporter or whatever you wish to call me.

I am a proud Somali who does not appreciate being investigated by foreigners or insulted by fellow Somalis.

Are you guys going to deny that the Italians and the British bombed us??

They committed crimes against Somalis and I will not deny it let alone try to hide it.

So what we committed crimes against others notably the Ethiopians and the Jarrers we captured and sold to Arabs

We even killed three British commanders in the seyyid war and dozens of Brits where killed
We killed an defeated the Portos and sold the survivors in to slavery

You can victim seek if you want but I don't fear nobody even some random white men on Somalispot including some 70 year old man and a enthusiast of Somalia history like James

 

[Finesse]

So what we committed crimes against others notably the Ethiopians and the Jarrers we captured and sold to Arabs

We even killed three British commanders in the seyyid war and dozens of Brits where killed
We killed an defeated the Portos and sold the survivors in to slavery

You can victim seek if you want but I don't fear nobody even some random white men on Somalispot including some 70 year old man and a enthusiast of Somalia history like James

Did I disagree with you? ( We both agreed Somalia was colonised/protectorate)
Did I deny our history? (I mentioned Somalis fought off invaders)


I think you just want to have an argument, find someone else.

 

[madaxweyne]

Did I disagree with you? ( We both agreed Somalia was colonised/protectorate)
Did I deny our history? (I mentioned Somalis fought off invaders)


I think you just want to have an argument, find someone else.

It's fine I just don't like this victim complex especially based on some 20 year colonial rule especially after we fought them of for almost a hundred years even the south fough the them of

Yes they did horrible things but it was not at the extent you described it to be

Besides I was correcting you're false misconceptions

 

[Finesse]

If a Somali owned that website everyone would say that it is biased and full of lies.

Facts

Soo dhawow Jaamac Dahir.

 

[Grant]

Wrong,

Firstly, how often do I have to repeat that T1a exists all over East Africa, including Northern Tanzanians. If you sample enough Maays you will find T1a as well. The Maay are not T1a-free. It simply isn't their majority lineage just like it is not for the Habar Awal nor Darod who are Maxaa.

Secondly, go look up what population bottleneck and founder effect mean. This is genetics 101. T1a in Somalis is associated with Dir or proto-Dir paternal descent. That's about it. It does not carry any other additional genetic weight besides this. The whole genome of T1a Somalis is the same as E1b1b1 ethnic Somalis and they cluster similarly just like your white ass with E1b1b1 isn't any more Middle Eastern than your cousin with R1b.

I am familiar with both founder effect and population bottlenecks. The alternative theory, which seems more likely given the near 100% T1a showing of the Dir, is that they arrived as a cohesive tribe about 3000 YBP from a population established in the Red Sea Hills during the Neolithic. This fits in well with the Dir claim to be the oldest Somali clan, preceding V32 in the North. The small percentages of T1a spread all over East Africa may well be generalized Cushitic, but the near 100% in the Dir is clearly exceptional.

My "divisiveness" just follows the evidence.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml


Neolithic colonisation of the Arabian peninsula and East Africa
The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East. One theory is that haplogroup T spread alongside J1 as herder-hunters in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic period, leaving the Zagros mountains between 9,000 and 10,000 BCE, reaching the Egypt and the southern Arabian peninsula around 7,000 BCE, then propagating from there to the Horn of Africa, and later on to Madagascar. However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia, and in Madagascar. This contrasts with other Near Eastern haplogroups like G2a and J2, which are conspicuously absent from East Africa, and rare in the Arabian peninsula. Nowadays, T1a subclades dating from the Neolithic found in East Africa include Y16247 (downstream of CTS2214) and Y16897. Other subclades dating from the Bronze Age (see below) are present as well, such as Y15711 and Y21004, both downstream of CTS2214."

 

[Grant]

most of what you said was not true am guessing youre a women

europeans never colonised us the most of the south was ruled by the geledi
or majeeerteen sultanate the north was taken by the darwiish
who ruled and fought the british to a standstill and ended in a peace treaty
and somaliland became a PROTACTORATE

europeans measured our skulls and called us Mediterranean caucasians
youre just trying to fit in with the Madows abayo

anyhow @James Dahl is a cool guy @Grant is just a confused old man
who gets corrected once in a while dont take it personal

this is the horn of africa 1915 we where always independent and unruly

View attachment 66529

That map is part of the falsified Wikipedia page on the Geledi. Sultan Osman Ahmad Yusuf signed a peace treaty with the Italians shortly after the Lafoole incident in 1896 and the Sultanate ended when he died in 1910. The entire Banaadir resistance only lasted until 1908. The Geledi never had a port and never controlled any part of the coast.

https://operationoverload.wordpress...an-imperialism-and-benaadir-resistance-prt-4/

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/lafoole-25-26th-of-november-1896.13890/

 

[madaxweyne]

That map is part of the falsified Wikipedia page on the Geledi. Sultan Osman Ahmad Yusuf signed a peace treaty with the Italians shortly after the Lafoole incident in 1896 and the Sultanate ended when he died in 1910. The entire Banaadir resistance only lasted until 1908. The Geledi never had a port and never controlled any part of the coast.

https://operationoverload.wordpress...an-imperialism-and-benaadir-resistance-prt-4/

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/lafoole-25-26th-of-november-1896.13890/

The map isn't falsified. It's actually referenced by the Italian colonials and all you posted was a fake blog made by you. How can I take you seriously?

Geledi Sultanate controlled from Mogadishu to south Barawa. Geledi Sultanate was a Rahanweyn confederation led by the Geledi clan. Barawa is inhabited by the Tunni clan which are digil brothers of Geledi. What the f*ck are you smoking? I'll post a source of how much coastal territories Geledi Sultanate occupied. The only coastal territories that refused to pay tribute was Merca which wasn't under Geledi control but Barawa was.

kismayo was also under Geledi Sultanate control: http://amisom-au.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Sector-II-Kismayo.pdf

The Rahanweyn clan were never landlocked and they were under Geledi rule so therefore Geledi Sultanate had access to ports. What you're saying is full of shit and completely unheard off.

 

[James Dahl]

Eh, I would contest that any clan had "control" over anything controlled by an allied or related clan. On paper the Geledi were quite powerful but in order to do anything the Sultan would have had to consult with hundreds of sub-kings. The only force the sultan of Geledi directly controlled was his own clan army at Afgooye.

I mean the whole Banaadir resistance was a clear example of that, the Geledi had come to an arrangement with the Italians and yet the people supposedly under the control of Suldaan Cusmaan rebelled anyways and continued to do so for years.

 

[Factz]

Eh, I would contest that any clan had "control" over anything controlled by an allied or related clan. On paper the Geledi were quite powerful but in order to do anything the Sultan would have had to consult with hundreds of sub-kings. The only force the sultan of Geledi directly controlled was his own clan army at Afgooye.

I mean the whole Banaadir resistance was a clear example of that, the Geledi had come to an arrangement with the Italians and yet the people supposedly under the control of Suldaan Cusmaan rebelled anyways and continued to do so for years.

You're talking about the period of Sultan Osman when Geledi Sultantate was weakened. Please do not confuse that era with Sultan Ahmed and Sultan Yusuf when Geledi Sultanate was at its zenith during their reign.

 

[Apollo]

I am familiar with both founder effect and population bottlenecks. The alternative theory, which seems more likely given the near 100% T1a showing of the Dir, is that they arrived as a cohesive tribe about 3000 YBP from a population established in the Red Sea Hills during the Neolithic. This fits in well with the Dir claim to be the oldest Somali clan, preceding V32 in the North. The small percentages of T1a spread all over East Africa may well be generalized Cushitic, but the near 100% in the Dir is clearly exceptional.

That's just a speculative theory and an unreasonable one at that.

The more reasonable and logical explanation is that both existed in a Cushitic HOA population and the Dir forefather was simply a T carrier by mere chance and later on, it blew up in frequency in areas where his tribe settled due to his/their reproductive success.

Also, the Dir Y TMRCA is under 1,500 years. Somalis lived in Northern Somalia prior to this, most definitely. The Habar Awal E1b1b subclade and South Somali E1b1b sub don't share ancestry up to 3,100 years before present.

 

[Grant]

The map isn't falsified. It's actually referenced by the Italian colonials and all you posted was a fake blog made by you. How can I take you seriously?

Geledi Sultanate controlled from Mogadishu to south Barawa. Geledi Sultanate was a Rahanweyn confederation led by the Geledi clan. Barawa is inhabited by the Tunni clan which are digil brothers of Geledi. What the f*ck are you smoking? I'll post a source of how much coastal territories Geledi Sultanate occupied. The only coastal territories that refused to pay tribute was Merca which wasn't under Geledi control but Barawa was.

kismayo was also under Geledi Sultanate control: http://amisom-au.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Sector-II-Kismayo.pdf

The Rahanweyn clan were never landlocked and they were under Geledi rule so therefore Geledi Sultanate had access to ports. What you're saying is full of shit and completely unheard off.

Here is the Falsified Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_the_Geledi

Notice it can be edited right from the page and that the only reference given is Virginia Luling, who is an excellent source, but who never gave this false information. Notes include Dr Mukhtar, who also never gave this false information.

--------------------------------------------------

This academic article is from the 9th volume of Islam in Africa, for which the author also wrote the second volume, The Transmission of Learning in Islamic Africa, all published on behalf of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies. The work is heavily footnoted to Luling, Revoil, Christopher and Casanelli, just in this section. The work itself is already considered a standard.

https://books.google.com/books?id=fb4UYAPUhYoC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=The+Geledi+and+the+Omani+Sultanate+of+Zanzibar?&source=bl&ots=DgkGDEGn2S&sig=CoUZXccJY8N2aMzK_8EE0P-cCfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi49cTCmNvaAhUnj1QKHez-BYoQ6AEIczAK#v=onepage&q=The Geledi and the Omani Sultanate of Zanzibar?&f=false


Begin page 57:

"By the time of the Baardheere troubles, the Geledi in Afgoye were enjoying unprecedented prosperity and influence. The power of the sultans continued to expand via local conquests and alliances. In addition, they had also begun to dominate local trade networks, enabling them to force all caravans bound for the interior to pass through their own markets where they could be taxed. With their victory over Baardheere, the Geledi seemed poised to dominate all of southern Somalia. Geledi expansion was blocked, however, by both local rivals and their own lack of direct access to the sea. From the mid-1840s through the 1870s Sultan Yusuf Muhammad and his successors sought to use the political and military capital accrued as a result of the conflict with Baardheere to secure their expansionist agenda. The result instead was tension, political intrigue and-eventually-armed conflict.

Immediately following the Baardheere war, Yusuf Muhammad hoped to establish a Geledi controlled port at the point where the Shabelli was closest to the coast known as Mungiya south of Marka. The Geledi already controlled most of the riverine agricultural settlements that far south and the establishment of a port would enable them to export grain directly to overseas buyers without the expense of going through urban middlemen in Mogadishu or Marka.

Not surprisingly, this move evoked almost immediate resistance from agro-pastoral competitors as well as coastal merchants, both of whom saw their interests threatened by Geledi ambition. The result was a long war of attrition between the G eledi and their principal rivals the Bimal, a clan of pastoral entrepreneurs from the region surrounding Marka. The latter were supported by urban merchant communities from the length and breadth of the coast. Throughout the 1840s, the two sides fought a number of indecisive engagements ultimately ending in stalemate by the latter years of the decade.

By 1847, the upper hand seemed to lay with the Geledi. Hoping to consolidate his gains Sultan Yusuf decided to eliminate the Bimal threat once and for all by forcing what he hoped would be a final decisive battle. In May, 1848 he forced the Bimal into a major engagement at the village of Golwayn. The details of the battle are sketchy, however; what is known is that shortly after the fighting began, both Sultan Yusuf and his brother Musa lay dead and their forces were routed. With one blow, Geledi expansion toward the coast was ended.

While Sultan Yusuf's death ended Geledi ambitions to dominate the coast, it did not end their control over territories in the interior. Yusuf was succeeded by two of his sons, Ahmad and Abiker. Ahmad made his seat at Afgoye, the traditional center of power for the Gobroon. Abiker became Sultan of Buulo Merer, a village downstream from Afgoye and opposite Bimal territory at the extreme limit of what had become the Geledi sphere of influence. This move was apparently intended at enabling the Gobroon to maintain tight control over the furthest reaches of their territory in the face of continued Bimal belligerence.

In addition to sustaining their territorial integrity, the Gobroon were also able to maintain much of their political influence in the urban centers of the coast, especially in Mogadishu, although it seems to have been more due to their economic power than military strength. The most celebrated example of their continued influence centers on the construction of a Zanzibari fortress in ;the Shangani district of the town. The Omani sultans of Zanzibar had laid nominal claim to the Benaadir coast since the early 1800s, Around 1870, the Zanzibari sultan, Sayyid Barghash, decided to make this claim a reality by establishing garrisons in each of the major towns for the purpose of assessing customs duty. The elders of Shangani, however, resisted the idea and the Sultan lacking either the military might or the economic means to force compliance looked to the Geledi Sultan, Ahmad, for help. Eager to demonstrate his power over the townsmen, Sultan Ahmad readily agreed, and threatened to order his allies along the river to boycott the Shangani market if the elders continued to obstruct Zanzibari plans. Faced with the complete disruption of the local grain trade, the elders realized the fitility f their position and ended their resistance. The garesa was built.

As it turned out, this was to be the apex of Geledi influence. In the decades following Golwayn, a pattern of indecisive raids and counter-raids characterized relations between the Geledi and their Bimal rivals. In 1878 this pattern culminated in what would turn out to be the last major encounter between the two clans. In that year, Sultan Ahmad, like his father, decided to end the Bimal threat through a single decisive battle. He and his brother Abiker, mustered their forces and moved to meet the enemy near Marka at a village known as Agareen. Like their father's last battle thirty yeaers before, the engagement turned into a rout, with the Bimal once again victorious at the end of the day. In a final ironic twist of fate, both ahmad and Abiker were killed in an uncanny replay of the deaths of their own father and uncle. With the battle of Agareen, Gobroon dominance was at an end.".

------------------------------

Those who read on will notice that the last Sultan of Geledi, Ahmad's son, Osman, died in 1910 and the sultanate was disestablished, subsumed under the Italian administration, so the date for that map is just wacko. Also, the furthest south and east the Geledi ever got was Buulo Merer, on the west bank of the Shabelli, just south of Marka. Prior to the Baardheere troubles, the Yaquub Abgaal controlled Mog, the Hiraab the Mog hinterland, the Bimal the area around Marka, the Tunni the area around Baraawe, and the Bardheere Jamaaca increasingly after 1819 the area between the rivers, culminating in 1840 with the complete domination of the area and the burning of Baraawe. After 1843 Yusuf lost the support of the Hintire, Jiddu, Begedi and some of the Reewin clans. His death in 1848 ended the Geledi push to the coast, and Ahmad's death in 1878 put an end to the Geledi as a power in the South.

The Geledi never got a port, never had ships, and never had a foreign "trade empire" of any sort. Yusuf did not get to Lamu or Zanzibar, did not defeat the Zanzibari sultan and did not receive tribute from him. That is all the delusion of those who think they can change history by "editing" Wiki.