Maay vs Maxaa?

[madaxweyne]

Baadiyow (your Abdullahi, Abdurahman.) writes. among other things, that the Periplus was written by Maris Erythraei, when that is part of the title (The Circumnavigation of the Red Sea). Maris Erythraei is Greek for "of the Red Sea". He also states that Mir Ali Bey strengthened the alliance between the Ajuraan and the Ottomans, while his own footnoted source states that Bey was an independant pirate, aided and financed in large part by the merchants of Muqdisho and Baraawe (not the Ajuraan) and that he was captured by the Portuguese when they burned Mombasa and died a Catholic in Lisbon. In fact, there is no correspondence at all in the Ottoman archives between the Ottomans and the Ajuraan. Baadiyow is not to be trusted.


Ade Ajayi was a Christian Igbo and a member of the Ibadan school, which emphasized the African component in African history. He is misinformed, or at least describing only a limited period of time. Why would you pick him over the many Somalis and others who have written on the subject?

A good many of the Reewin clans, as well as the Jiddu, Begedi and Hintire, left the Geledi alliance after 1843. Zanzibari Sultan Barghash studied religion at Baraawe and was both patron and Khalifa to Tunni Shaykh Uweys al Baraawe. By the mid-19th century, Baraawe was swinging away from the Geledi and towards significant reliance on Barghash, who established a garrison in the town shortly after becoming Sultan in 1870.

Your claims make no sense at all.

Abdullahi Abdurahman book has been reviewed and accepted by most historians. You're such a liar and I've read his book, he did not say that. You've been exposed as a liar yet again. @Factz @Apollo check this out.

First of all. He never said Mir Ali Bey strengthen ties between the Ajuran Sultanate and Ottoman Empire.
He said they strengthen ties after the Portuguese failed to conquer Mogadishu, province of Ajuran as his authentic sources say.
He said Mir Ali Bay forces as Turkish, he never considered them Ottoman. You're a compulsive liar.

They both did work together to liberate Mombasa as you can see from the south below.

Mogadishu and Barawa was part of Ajuran Sultanate, f*ck you mean? They were provinces of Ajuran Sultanate and the Ajuran sub-clans settled into those two cities. The Moorshe clan dominated Mogadishu.

Source for Barawa. It says Ajuran defended its territory against the Portuguese when they invaded Barawa. It explains to you that it was part of the Ajuran Sultanate.

Do you realize during the Ajuran period that Mogadishu was dominated by Moorshe, an Ajuran sub-clan?

He was right about the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea and the ancient Somali city-states.

Go learn about Periplus Maris Erythraei, it's a Greco-Roman periplus written in Koine Greek that describes navigation and trading opportunities from Roman Egyptian ports like Berenice Troglodytica along the coast of the Red Sea, and others along Horn of Africa, the Sindh region of Pakistan, along with southwestern regions of India. The text has been ascribed to different dates between the first and third centuries.

Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea

Lastly, Ade Ajayi is a historian who studied the Somali history so she is right about Rahanweyn being ruled by the Geledi clan. Your opinions don't matter and you hold no PHD on history so f*ck off!

Debunked again old man!

 

[Invader]

Was Af Maay a dialect or a seperate language from Af Somali?

Dialect

 

[one]

My Somali is good and so are @Ferrari and @Fiidmeer fluent in Somali
I can't understand Maay Maay it's like listening to a different language.

U sheeg.
LOOOOOL inalillaah, I screamed.Look at all these AF-maxaa tidhi/tiri kids lying and saying that they understand Maay-Maay. Understanding a few words here and there is another story, but saying I understand the language entirely is been cad. My mom speaks af-maay maay and 99% of the time I have no clue what's she's talking about.

 

[Grant]

Abdullahi Abdurahman book has been reviewed and accepted by most historians. You're such a liar and I've read his book, he did not say that. You've been exposed as a liar yet again. @Factz @Apollo check this out.

First of all. He never said Mir Ali Bey strengthen ties between the Ajuran Sultanate and Ottoman Empire.
He said they strengthen ties after the Portuguese failed to conquer Mogadishu, province of Ajuran as his authentic sources say.
He said Mir Ali Bay forces as Turkish, he never considered them Ottoman. You're a compulsive liar.

They both did work together to liberate Mombasa as you can see from the south below.

Mogadishu and Barawa was part of Ajuran Sultanate, f*ck you mean? They were provinces of Ajuran Sultanate and the Ajuran sub-clans settled into those two cities. The Moorshe clan dominated Mogadishu.

Source for Barawa. It says Ajuran defended its territory against the Portuguese when they invaded Barawa. It explains to you that it was part of the Ajuran Sultanate.

Do you realize during the Ajuran period that Mogadishu was dominated by Moorshe, an Ajuran sub-clan?

He was right about the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea and the ancient Somali city-states.

Go learn about Periplus Maris Erythraei, it's a Greco-Roman periplus written in Koine Greek that describes navigation and trading opportunities from Roman Egyptian ports like Berenice Troglodytica along the coast of the Red Sea, and others along Horn of Africa, the Sindh region of Pakistan, along with southwestern regions of India. The text has been ascribed to different dates between the first and third centuries.

Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea

Lastly, Ade Ajayi is a historian who studied the Somali history so she is right about Rahanweyn being ruled by the Geledi clan. Your opinions don't matter and you hold no PHD on history so f*ck off!

Debunked again old man!

Absolute hogwash.

You have no clue about Baadiyow and his erroneous notions on the author of the Periplus.

Baadiyow's footnote on Mir Ali Bey is to Sidney Welch, Portuguese Rule and Spanish Crown in South Africa, 1581-1640. I was able to find a copy. It's a 634 page book.

On pages 60-61 of Vol.1 of his Making Sense of Somali History Baadiyow says: "As a reaction to the Portuguese threat the Ajuraan Imamate strengthened its relations with the Ottoman Empire in Istanbul. Both parties established military pact to collectively thwart the Portuguese threat in ;the Indian Ocean. As a result, the marine forces of Ajuran and the Ottoman Navy organized common expeditions to break the Portuguese blockades of the coastal towns of the Indian Ocean. This cooperation reached its peak in the 1580s during Mir Ali Bey's command of the Turkish fleet in the Indian Ocean, when a Somali-Turkish expedition was sent as far as South East Asia."

The relevant part of Welch is Chapter II, pages 23-32. It is as I said. Bey was an independent pirate financed by the merchants of Muqdisho and Baraawe. The Ajuraan would presumably have been at Marka, but are not mentioned. There was no Ottoman fleet and no Ajuraan input. When Bey took Lamu in 1586 he had one ship and some Somalis in "pangaios", described as canoes or rowboats, small boats without rudders. He did capture 3 Portuguese ships with a lot of cargo, including gold, but retreated to the northern Red Sea. Coaxed and supplied with funds by the merchants of Muqdisho and Baraawe he returned in 1589. The Ajuraan would presumeably have been at Marka, but are not mentioned. Bey burst into the Indian Ocean in January 1589 with five galleots and about 300 men. Driven by the Portuguese away from Malinde , he built a fort at Mombassa. By the 5th of March the Portuguese had burned the fort and town and had captured Mir Ali Bey, who died a Catholic in Lisbon. His main expedition lasted all of three months and resulted in the loss of his entire fleet and all of his men.

According to Cassanelli and Ali Abdirahman Hersi, there is no correspondence between or about the Ajuraan in any Middle Eastern archive, including Egypt and Ottoman Turkey. They were simply unknown.

Baadiyow's version is pure BS and seriously misleading.


Now, I am tired of your nonsense and lack of finesse in picking sources. We have drifted a long way from Maay vs Maxaa. I will let you have the last post. You are getting repetitive and those who read already know where the content lies in this discussion.

...................................................................................................................................

 

[madaxweyne]

Absolute hogwash.

You have no clue about Baadiyow and his erroneous notions on the author of the Periplus.

Baadiyow's footnote on Mir Ali Bey is to Sidney Welch, Portuguese Rule and Spanish Crown in South Africa, 1581-1640. I was able to find a copy. It's a 634 page book.

On pages 60-61 of Vol.1 of his Making Sense of Somali History Baadiyow says: "As a reaction to the Portuguese threat the Ajuraan Imamate strengthened its relations with the Ottoman Empire in Istanbul. Both parties established military pact to collectively thwart the Portuguese threat in ;the Indian Ocean. As a result, the marine forces of Ajuran and the Ottoman Navy organized common expeditions to break the Portuguese blockades of the coastal towns of the Indian Ocean. This cooperation reached its peak in the 1580s during Mir Ali Bey's command of the Turkish fleet in the Indian Ocean, when a Somali-Turkish expedition was sent as far as South East Asia."

The relevant part of Welch is Chapter II, pages 23-32. It is as I said. Bey was an independent pirate financed by the merchants of Muqdisho and Baraawe. The Ajuraan would presumably have been at Marka, but are not mentioned. There was no Ottoman fleet and no Ajuraan input. When Bey took Lamu in 1586 he had one ship and some Somalis in "pangaios", described as canoes or rowboats, small boats without rudders. He did capture 3 Portuguese ships with a lot of cargo, including gold, but retreated to the northern Red Sea. Coaxed and supplied with funds by the merchants of Muqdisho and Baraawe he returned in 1589. The Ajuraan would presumeably have been at Marka, but are not mentioned. Bey burst into the Indian Ocean in January 1589 with five galleots and about 300 men. Driven by the Portuguese away from Malinde , he built a fort at Mombassa. By the 5th of March the Portuguese had burned the fort and town and had captured Mir Ali Bey, who died a Catholic in Lisbon. His main expedition lasted all of three months and resulted in the loss of his entire fleet and all of his men.

According to Cassanelli and Ali Abdirahman Hersi, there is no correspondence between or about the Ajuraan in any Middle Eastern archive, including Egypt and Ottoman Turkey. They were simply unknown.

Baadiyow's version is pure BS and seriously misleading.


Now, I am tired of your nonsense and lack of finesse in picking sources. We have drifted a long way from Maay vs Maxaa. I will let you have the last post. You are getting repetitive and those who read already know where the content lies in this discussion.

...................................................................................................................................

Nothing Abdullahi Abdurahman said was erroneous except you. Also, why are you relying on outdated sources from Cassanelli and Ali Abdirahman Hersi? You're such a meme.

His notions on author of the Periplus was correct. It's actually quite laughable how you think you know more than a historian with PHD on Somali history. Mr Ali Bey was an Ottoman corsair. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_Ali_Beg

Both Mogadishu and Barawa were part of the Ajuran Sultanate. I've already given you the sourced map and explained to you that they were Ajuran provinces and even provided multiple evidences. They used Ajuran currencies, dumb ass.

I'll give you another source since you like to make excuses and lie. This source comes from Mohamed Haji Mukhtar the one you like to use and he stated Ajuran control most of the Benadir coast from Mareeg to the Kenyan frontier which is essentially thecoastal areas of Lower Jubba.

Ajuran controlled the Benadir coastal cities and lucrative trade across the sea from Mohamed Haji Mukhtar.

This is why Ajuran have a famous maritime history and trading all over the world. It's coastal provinces flourished when it secured its trading routes. They had communication from many kingdoms all over the planet as you can see this source below.

I've give you an Ottoman source stating that Ajuran Empire were allies of the Ottoman Empire. This source debunks your nonsensical notions about Ajuran having no communication or boats when historically they were Ottomans major Muslim ally.

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QFhKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT20&dq=Ajuran+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil84uN_ubgAhUfSBUIHQRuCZYQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=Ajuran Ottoman&f=false

How many times do you have to lie and make stuff up? Just give it up old man.Everyone on this forum sees you as a historical revisionist with an anti-Somali agenda. You've been exposed multiple times before and it's hilarious how you even say this.

"Those who read already know where the content lies in this discussion."

Buddy, you're talking about yourself.

 

[Grant]

Nothing Abdullahi Abdurahman said was erroneous except you. Also, why are you relying on outdated sources from Cassanelli and Ali Abdirahman Hersi? You're such a meme.

His notions on author of the Periplus was correct. It's actually quite laughable how you think you know more than a historian with PHD on Somali history. Mr Ali Bey was an Ottoman corsair. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_Ali_Beg

Both Mogadishu and Barawa were part of the Ajuran Sultanate. I've already given you the sourced map and explained to you that they were Ajuran provinces and even provided multiple evidences. They used Ajuran currencies, dumb ass.

I'll give you another source since you like to make excuses and lie. This source comes from Mohamed Haji Mukhtar the one you like to use and he stated Ajuran control most of the Benadir coast from Mareeg to the Kenyan frontier which is essentially thecoastal areas of Lower Jubba.

Ajuran controlled the Benadir coastal cities and lucrative trade across the sea from Mohamed Haji Mukhtar.

This is why Ajuran have a famous maritime history and trading all over the world. It's coastal provinces flourished when it secured its trading routes. They had communication from many kingdoms all over the planet as you can see this source below.

I've give you an Ottoman source stating that Ajuran Empire were allies of the Ottoman Empire. This source debunks your nonsensical notions about Ajuran having no communication or boats when historically they were Ottomans major Muslim ally.

Link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QFhKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT20&dq=Ajuran+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil84uN_ubgAhUfSBUIHQRuCZYQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=Ajuran Ottoman&f=false

How many times do you have to lie and make stuff up? Just give it up old man.Everyone on this forum sees you as a historical revisionist with an anti-Somali agenda. You've been exposed multiple times before and it's hilarious how you even say this.

"Those who read already know where the content lies in this discussion."

Buddy, you're talking about yourself.

Sorry. I just have to ask: Do you really think Maris Erythraei wrote the Periplus?

https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/periplus/periplus.html

I wouldn't use the Wikipedia link myself,, but since you used it perhaps you should read it.. It's as I described it, but with an Ottoman connection not explained as well as in Welch. Wiki: "Hasan Pasha, Kilich Ali Pasha, and Hazinedar Sinan Pasha, had hatched a conspiracy to gain more funding for naval expeditions by lying to the central government about an exaggerated Portuguese threat." The real object was to profit personally by re-establishing the East-West trade route through the Red Sea to supply friends in England, France and Venice, who were also at war with the Portuguese. They were operating independently of the government. And there is no mention whatsoever in there of the Ajuraan.

The Ottomans supplied troops and weapons for the Adal wars, but there is no record they ever had any contact with the Ajuraan. It might be a good thing for you to see if you can find any.

 

[madaxweyne]

Sorry. I just have to ask: Do you really think Maris Erythraei wrote the Periplus?

https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/periplus/periplus.html

I wouldn't use the Wikipedia link myself,, but since you used it perhaps you should read it.. It's as I described it, but with an Ottoman connection not explained as well as in Welch. Wiki: "Hasan Pasha, Kilich Ali Pasha, and Hazinedar Sinan Pasha, had hatched a conspiracy to gain more funding for naval expeditions by lying to the central government about an exaggerated Portuguese threat." The real object was to profit personally by re-establishing the East-West trade route through the Red Sea to supply friends in England, France and Venice, who were also at war with the Portuguese. They were operating independently of the government. And there is no mention whatsoever in there of the Ajuraan.

The Ottomans supplied troops and weapons for the Adal wars, but there is no record they ever had any contact with the Ajuraan. It might be a good thing for you to see if you can find any.

I thought you would stop your revisionism after I debunked you?

The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea is an anonymous work written by a Greek Egyptian (Maris Erythraei) in the first century BCE. Abdullahi Abdurahman was right.

Read: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qQWYkSs51rEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Maris+Erythraei&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3oYiXqufgAhWRQxUIHSB2D1kQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Maris Erythraei&f=false

Much more authentic than your blog and I did not use Wiki this time.

Again, you've showed me a Wiki page (lack of references). I have given you an Ottoman source stating that the Ajuran Empire was an Ottoman ally. Both communicated, both traded with eachother, both done naval expedition against the Portuguese and both were considered major allies. You have been refuted from this subject so quit making shit up.

Read again: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QFhKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT20&dq=Ajuran+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil84uN_ubgAhUfSBUIHQRuCZYQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=Ajuran Ottoman&f=false

Now old man, stay in your old care home and keep playing chess. Those nurses need to remove your laptop because you troll way too much.

 

[Grant]

I thought you would stop your revisionism after I debunked you?

The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea is an anonymous work written by a Greek Egyptian (Maris Erythraei) in the first century BCE. Abdullahi Abdurahman was right.

Read: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qQWYkSs51rEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Maris+Erythraei&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3oYiXqufgAhWRQxUIHSB2D1kQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Maris Erythraei&f=false

Much more authentic than your blog and I did not use Wiki this time.

Again, you've showed me a Wiki page (lack of references). I have given you an Ottoman source stating that the Ajuran Empire was an Ottoman ally. Both communicated, both traded with eachother, both done naval expedition against the Portuguese and both were considered major allies. You have been refuted from this subject so quit making shit up.

Read again: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QFhKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT20&dq=Ajuran+Ottoman&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil84uN_ubgAhUfSBUIHQRuCZYQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=Ajuran Ottoman&f=false

Now old man, stay in your old care home and keep playing chess. Those nurses need to remove your laptop because you troll way too much.

Both you and Abdullahi Abdurahman are wrong. Your version of the Periplus is a preview that is missing a lot of pages. Here is the full Periplus Maris Erythraei:

https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/periplus/periplus.html

"The Periplus Maris Erythraei (or ‘Voyage around the Erythraean Sea’) is an anonymous work from around the middle of the first century CE written by a Greek speaking Egyptian merchant."

Maris Erythraei is Greek for "of the Red Sea" It is not a person's name. You can see Baadiyow's blooper on page 48 of his first volume..

How is an anonymous work written by a man named Maris Erythraei?

_________________________________

Suleyman led raids against the Portuguese in his own name, but he was more concerned with the Portuguese in India and he died in 1566. The "Somali-Turkish" expedition to southeast Asia that Baadiyow attributes to Mir Ali, is actually his, in 1564.

One of the better indications that Mir Ali Bey was not representing the Ottoman government is stated in your Wiki link:

"Mir Ali Beg was a prominent figure in the Ottoman history of expansion in the Indian Ocean. His early voyages marked some of the first contentions to Portuguese control of the area by the Ottoman Empire, and his defeat at Mombasa in 1589 would mark the end of the Ottomans attempts to contest to the Portuguese the Indian Ocean for the rest of their history.[3]"

The Ottomans were more concerned in the 1580s with the Persian threat. Mir Ali and the three pashas were working for themselves.

---------------------------------------

Your Suleyman source is not a primary work. Again, there are no Ottoman records of any contact with the Ajuraan and they are not mentioned in the primary source (Sidney Welch) for Mir Ali Bey's adventures. They are also not mentioned in your Wiki article. If you want to claim an Ottoman-Ajuraan alliance, your time would be best spent looking for contact between them.

-------------------------------------------------

I prefer the older authors because they are closer to the sources and untainted by the Wikipedia history and the errors of more recent authors like Baadiyow, which tend to be compounded over time.

I would like to end this, but I will not abide any further slander or falsehood without comment.