Maay vs Maxaa?

[Grant]

That's just a speculative theory and an unreasonable one at that.

The more reasonable and logical explanation is that both existed in a Cushitic HOA population and the Dir forefather was simply a T carrier by mere chance and later on, it blew up in frequency in areas where his tribe settled due to his/their reproductive success.

Also, the Dir Y TMRCA is under 1,500 years. Somalis lived in Northern Somalia prior to this, most definitely. The Habar Awal E1b1b subclade and South Somali E1b1b sub don't share ancestry up to 3,100 years before present.

The Bronze Age in Egypt begins about 1640 BC, or 3600 years ago.

http://www.softschools.com/timelines/the_bronze_age_timeline/145/

From the link above.

"Nowadays, T1a subclades dating from the Neolithic found in East Africa include Y16247 (downstream of CTS2214) and Y16897. Other subclades dating from the Bronze Age (see below) are present as well, such as Y15711 and Y21004, both downstream of CTS2214."

The Neolithic corresponds to a settlement in the Red Sea Hills at 6-8 KYA, and the Bronze age corresponds to a migration south at about 3 KYA.

Your explanation that T1a and V32 were initially contemporaneous does not allow for the Dir being the oldest Somali clan or for the Northern clans to have formed in the South. It is entirely possible there were two E1b1b subclades in the South, especially since the Reewin claim a different genealogy from the Maxaa speakers. The better explanation is that a different version of V32 came from the South, joining the Dir, already in the North.

 

[madaxweyne]

Here is the Falsified Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_the_Geledi

Notice it can be edited right from the page and that the only reference given is Virginia Luling, who is an excellent source, but who never gave this false information. Notes include Dr Mukhtar, who also never gave this false information.

--------------------------------------------------

This academic article is from the 9th volume of Islam in Africa, for which the author also wrote the second volume, The Transmission of Learning in Islamic Africa, all published on behalf of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies. The work is heavily footnoted to Luling, Revoil, Christopher and Casanelli, just in this section. The work itself is already considered a standard.

https://books.google.com/books?id=fb4UYAPUhYoC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=The+Geledi+and+the+Omani+Sultanate+of+Zanzibar?&source=bl&ots=DgkGDEGn2S&sig=CoUZXccJY8N2aMzK_8EE0P-cCfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi49cTCmNvaAhUnj1QKHez-BYoQ6AEIczAK#v=onepage&q=The Geledi and the Omani Sultanate of Zanzibar?&f=false


Begin page 57:

"By the time of the Baardheere troubles, the Geledi in Afgoye were enjoying unprecedented prosperity and influence. The power of the sultans continued to expand via local conquests and alliances. In addition, they had also begun to dominate local trade networks, enabling them to force all caravans bound for the interior to pass through their own markets where they could be taxed. With their victory over Baardheere, the Geledi seemed poised to dominate all of southern Somalia. Geledi expansion was blocked, however, by both local rivals and their own lack of direct access to the sea. From the mid-1840s through the 1870s Sultan Yusuf Muhammad and his successors sought to use the political and military capital accrued as a result of the conflict with Baardheere to secure their expansionist agenda. The result instead was tension, political intrigue and-eventually-armed conflict.

Immediately following the Baardheere war, Yusuf Muhammad hoped to establish a Geledi controlled port at the point where the Shabelli was closest to the coast known as Mungiya south of Marka. The Geledi already controlled most of the riverine agricultural settlements that far south and the establishment of a port would enable them to export grain directly to overseas buyers without the expense of going through urban middlemen in Mogadishu or Marka.

Not surprisingly, this move evoked almost immediate resistance from agro-pastoral competitors as well as coastal merchants, both of whom saw their interests threatened by Geledi ambition. The result was a long war of attrition between the G eledi and their principal rivals the Bimal, a clan of pastoral entrepreneurs from the region surrounding Marka. The latter were supported by urban merchant communities from the length and breadth of the coast. Throughout the 1840s, the two sides fought a number of indecisive engagements ultimately ending in stalemate by the latter years of the decade.

By 1847, the upper hand seemed to lay with the Geledi. Hoping to consolidate his gains Sultan Yusuf decided to eliminate the Bimal threat once and for all by forcing what he hoped would be a final decisive battle. In May, 1848 he forced the Bimal into a major engagement at the village of Golwayn. The details of the battle are sketchy, however; what is known is that shortly after the fighting began, both Sultan Yusuf and his brother Musa lay dead and their forces were routed. With one blow, Geledi expansion toward the coast was ended.

While Sultan Yusuf's death ended Geledi ambitions to dominate the coast, it did not end their control over territories in the interior. Yusuf was succeeded by two of his sons, Ahmad and Abiker. Ahmad made his seat at Afgoye, the traditional center of power for the Gobroon. Abiker became Sultan of Buulo Merer, a village downstream from Afgoye and opposite Bimal territory at the extreme limit of what had become the Geledi sphere of influence. This move was apparently intended at enabling the Gobroon to maintain tight control over the furthest reaches of their territory in the face of continued Bimal belligerence.

In addition to sustaining their territorial integrity, the Gobroon were also able to maintain much of their political influence in the urban centers of the coast, especially in Mogadishu, although it seems to have been more due to their economic power than military strength. The most celebrated example of their continued influence centers on the construction of a Zanzibari fortress in ;the Shangani district of the town. The Omani sultans of Zanzibar had laid nominal claim to the Benaadir coast since the early 1800s, Around 1870, the Zanzibari sultan, Sayyid Barghash, decided to make this claim a reality by establishing garrisons in each of the major towns for the purpose of assessing customs duty. The elders of Shangani, however, resisted the idea and the Sultan lacking either the military might or the economic means to force compliance looked to the Geledi Sultan, Ahmad, for help. Eager to demonstrate his power over the townsmen, Sultan Ahmad readily agreed, and threatened to order his allies along the river to boycott the Shangani market if the elders continued to obstruct Zanzibari plans. Faced with the complete disruption of the local grain trade, the elders realized the fitility f their position and ended their resistance. The garesa was built.

As it turned out, this was to be the apex of Geledi influence. In the decades following Golwayn, a pattern of indecisive raids and counter-raids characterized relations between the Geledi and their Bimal rivals. In 1878 this pattern culminated in what would turn out to be the last major encounter between the two clans. In that year, Sultan Ahmad, like his father, decided to end the Bimal threat through a single decisive battle. He and his brother Abiker, mustered their forces and moved to meet the enemy near Marka at a village known as Agareen. Like their father's last battle thirty yeaers before, the engagement turned into a rout, with the Bimal once again victorious at the end of the day. In a final ironic twist of fate, both ahmad and Abiker were killed in an uncanny replay of the deaths of their own father and uncle. With the battle of Agareen, Gobroon dominance was at an end.".

------------------------------

Those who read on will notice that the last Sultan of Geledi, Ahmad's son, Osman, died in 1910 and the sultanate was disestablished, subsumed under the Italian administration, so the date for that map is just wacko. Also, the furthest south and east the Geledi ever got was Buulo Merer, on the west bank of the Shabelli, just south of Marka. Prior to the Baardheere troubles, the Yaquub Abgaal controlled Mog, the Hiraab the Mog hinterland, the Bimal the area around Marka, the Tunni the area around Baraawe, and the Bardheere Jamaaca increasingly after 1819 the area between the rivers, culminating in 1840 with the complete domination of the area and the burning of Baraawe. After 1843 Yusuf lost the support of the Hintire, Jiddu, Begedi and some of the Reewin clans. His death in 1848 ended the Geledi push to the coast, and Ahmad's death in 1878 put an end to the Geledi as a power in the South.

The Geledi never got a port, never had ships, and never had a foreign "trade empire" of any sort. Yusuf did not get to Lamu or Zanzibar, did not defeat the Zanzibari sultan and did not receive tribute from him. That is all the delusion of those who think they can change history by "editing" Wiki.

I see why everyone calls you a racist revisionist. The map mentions the Italian colonial who wrote the map you fool and none of your sources say Geledi Sultanate was landlocked, stop trying to prove something so absurd and false.

Barawa and Kismayo was part of Geledi Sultanate. I've already provided the sources.

Sultan Yusuf and his 40 thousand Digil forces liberated Barawa and destroyed Bardheere, re-opened Luuq trade and Sultan Yusuf became the new political and religious leader in the region. The only southern Somalis that refused his leadership and authority were Bimaal. Bardheere eventually came under control of Geledi Sultanate, you even once said Geledi controlled Gedo. Geledi Sultanate also ruled lower Jubba as you can see from the source when they accepted the leadership of Sultan Yusuf. It was only Bimaal that resisted their hegemony.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dR5yCmUejWEC&pg=PA200&dq=GELEDI+BIMAAL&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzkZ20vaLcAhWDJMAKHVASAnwQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=GELEDI BIMAAL&f=false

You're full of shit buddy. Geledi Sultanate had ports and with ports came with ships and trade networks around the world. This is the simple basis of a civilization which Geledi Sultanate had. Nice way of discrediting Somali history but we all know you're a racist lying revisionist with a clear agenda.

Another thing I want to add is when you read the book Luling (2002) at page 272. It mentions explicitly that Sultan Ahmed conquered Lamu and forced the Omani rulers to pay tribute.

Lastly, improve your reading skills. Even your own sources disagree with you.

 

[Apollo]

"Nowadays, T1a subclades dating from the Neolithic found in East Africa include Y16247 (downstream of CTS2214) and Y16897. Other subclades dating from the Bronze Age (see below) are present as well, such as Y15711 and Y21004, both downstream of CTS2214."

The Neolithic corresponds to a settlement in the Red Sea Hills at 6-8 KYA, and the Bronze age corresponds to a migration south at about 3 KYA.

Your explanation that T1a and V32 were initially contemporaneous does not allow for the Dir being the oldest Somali clan or for the Northern clans to have formed in the South. It is entirely possible there were two E1b1b subclades in the South, especially since the Reewin claim a different genealogy from the Maxaa speakers. The better explanation is that a different version of V32 came from the South, joining the Dir, already in the North.

The Dir are not the oldest Somali population. In fact, they are one of the youngest by having a paternal TMRCA in the ~1,500 YBP range. Most of the V32 Somalis have a paternal TMRCA in the ~3,100 YBP range. Twice as old, and then some. Including Northern Somalis.

 

[madaxweyne]

The Dir are not the oldest Somali population. In fact, they are one of the youngest by having a paternal TMRCA in the ~1,500 YBP range. Most of the V32 Somalis have a paternal TMRCA in the ~3,100 YBP range. Twice as old, and then some. Including Northern Somalis.

@Apollo but what diffrence does it make europeans have diffrent haplogroups relating to diffrent populations migrating resulting in the current european population
in my opinion r1b and r1a asian invaders are not native
does that mean we have to divide native I1A and I2a and west asian farmer e1b1b and t and g and asian invaders r1b and r1a from eachother and kick the farmer and asian invaders out

whats funny is somalis on the paternal side with e1b1b and t come from one migration of afro asiatic west asian farmers who split up to become the cushitic ancestors of somalis
haplogroups like t and e1b1b makes us hard to divide while europeans can be divided between native european and west asian farmer and asian invaders

@Grant does that mean we have to kick youre farmer buddies out and asian invading r1b and r1 a aswell according to youre logic we have to do that becosue their not native somalis are more native homogeneous then europeans like you

 

[Grant]

I see why everyone calls you a racist revisionist. The map mentions the Italian colonial who wrote the map you fool and none of your sources say Geledi Sultanate was landlocked, stop trying to prove something so absurd and false.

Barawa and Kismayo was part of Geledi Sultanate. I've already provided the sources.

Sultan Yusuf and his 40 thousand Digil forces liberated Barawa and destroyed Bardheere, re-opened Luuq trade and Sultan Yusuf became the new political and religious leader in the region. The only southern Somalis that refused his leadership and authority were Bimaal. Bardheere eventually came under control of Geledi Sultanate, you even once said Geledi controlled Gedo. Geledi Sultanate also ruled lower Jubba as you can see from the source when they accepted the leadership of Sultan Yusuf. It was only Bimaal that resisted their hegemony.

https://books.google.com/books?id=s0Y_AQAAIAAJ&source=gbs_book_other_versions

You're full of shit buddy. Geledi Sultanate had ports and with ports came with ships and trade networks around the world. This is the simple basis of a civilization which Geledi Sultanate had. Nice way of discrediting Somali history but we all know you're a racist lying revisionist with a clear agenda.

Another thing I want to add is when you read the book Luling (2002) at page 272. It mentions explicitly that Sultan Ahmed conquered Lamu and forced the Omani rulers to pay tribute.

Lastly, improve your reading skills. Even your own sources disagree with you.

So, Yusuf conquered Bardheere. There is no disagreement there. But there is nothing in your link about ports or the Geledi having ships. Both Yusuf and Axmed were killed and their armies routed when they tried to take the port at Munghia. They would not have had to fight the Biimaal wars if the Tunni had allowed them to use the port at Baraawe for free or if the merchants in Baraawe, Marka, Mog, etc had not charged them a middleman's fees. You have an incorrect view of the relationship between the Geledi and their allies. Neither the merchants nor the Tunni submitted to the Geledi in matters of their own interest. Also, the Geledi never controlled Kismayu.

You will need a quote and a link on Luling. This is the snippet view that can be searched:

https://books.google.com/books?id=s...ni+Sultan&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=page+202

"Sultan Axmed of Geledi at Lamu", "Oman pays tribute to the Geledi" , "Geledi ports" and "Geledi ships", and " Geledi control of Baraawe" all produce no results.

 

[Grant]

The Dir are not the oldest Somali population. In fact, they are one of the youngest by having a paternal TMRCA in the ~1,500 YBP range. Most of the V32 Somalis have a paternal TMRCA in the ~3,100 YBP range. Twice as old, and then some. Including Northern Somalis.

The issue of the age of the Dir in Somalia boils down to when the clans arrived in the North. The TMRCA in V32 Somalis could go clear back to the Sudan. Isn't it your claim that the clans formed in the south and then moved north after acquiring the camel about 500 AD? That would be a close match for your TMRCA of the Dir, with the Dir already being in the North when the migration began.


I think you are going to find multiple Southern subclades of V32, in addition to the northern one.

 

[Apollo]

The issue of the age of the Dir in Somalia boils down to when the clans arrived in the North. The TMRCA in V32 Somalis could go clear back to the Sudan. Isn't it your claim that the clans formed in the south and then moved north after acquiring the camel about 500 AD? That would be a close match for your TMRC of the Dir, with the Dir already being in the North when the migration began.

I think you are going to find multiple Southern subclades of V32, in addition to the northern one.

You have no clue what you are talking. The field has advanced way beyond V32 and there many many subclades underneath it.

 

[Grant]

You have no clue what you are talking. The field has advanced way beyond V32 and there many many subclades underneath it.

As I said.

 

[Apollo]

As I said.

Look at the results of Ethiopian populations. Not a single ethnic group in Ethiopia has just one paternal haplogroup. What on earth makes you think that North Somalia was just T? Makes no sense.

The more likely probability is that Dir T is nested in a larger general Northeast African T subclade and we are dealing with a localized founder effect. T is also very low in Puntland. Most natives of Puntland are E-M35 (mostly V32 with some V1515s) and some J1.

 

[Grant]

Look at the results of Ethiopian populations. Not a single ethnic group in Ethiopia has just one paternal haplogroup. What on earth makes you think that North Somalia was just T? Makes no sense.

The more likely probability is that Dir T is nested in a larger general Northeast African T subclade and we are dealing with a localized founder effect. T is also very low in Puntland. Most natives of Puntland are E-M35 (mostly V32 with some V1515s) and J1.

Nobody said the North was just T.

No comment on the TMRCAs?

I find the cohesive tribe theory more credible than founder effect for a group of this size and purity.

You should do a thread on the V32 subclades.

 

[Apollo]

Nobody said the North was just T.

No comment on the TMRCAs?

I find the cohesive tribe theory more credible than founder effect for a group of this size and purity.

You should do a thread on the V32 subclades.

I am first waiting for more data to come out over the years before making bold claims on those recently discovered deep subclades.

As for who was present in the North before the Somali speakers came in: it doesn't really matter because that area historically had low population density and a population replacement event occurred.

 

[Grant]

I am first waiting for more data to come out over the years before making bold claims on those recently discovered deep subclades.

As for who was present in the North before the Somali speakers came in: it doesn't really matter because that area historically had low population density and a population replacement event occurred.

Without data, your claims are more than bold enough for me.

Actually, it does matter. The Dir, Yibir and Goboye are all still there, and all claim to have preceded V32. It would be nice just to know what the real story was.

Population replacement is exactly what we are talking about.

 

[madaxweyne]

So, Yusuf conquered Bardheere. There is no disagreement there. But there is nothing in your link about ports or the Geledi having ships. Both Yusuf and Axmed were killed and their armies routed when they tried to take the port at Munghia. They would not have had to fight the Biimaal wars if the Tunni had allowed them to use the port at Baraawe for free or if the merchants in Baraawe, Marka, Mog, etc had not charged them a middleman's fees. You have an incorrect view of the relationship between the Geledi and their allies. Neither the merchants nor the Tunni submitted to the Geledi in matters of their own interest. Also, the Geledi never controlled Kismayu.

You will need a quote and a link on Luling. This is the snippet view that can be searched:

https://books.google.com/books?id=s...ni+Sultan&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=page+202

"Sultan Axmed of Geledi at Lamu", "Oman pays tribute to the Geledi" , "Geledi ports" and "Geledi ships", and " Geledi control of Baraawe" all produce no results.

Did you not read the source I posted? After the Bardheere jihad. Sultan Yusuf was accepted as the new political and religious leader of southern Somalia. The people of Lower Jubba and Lower Shabelle and other Rahanweyn affiliates accepted his leadership. That includes Barawa and Kismayo. Can you read or is your age also affecting your reading abilities?

The reason why Geledi Sultanate wanted to colonize Merca is because Merca was such a close proximity to Afgooye. It was a threat to the capital and for Bimaal to resist Geledi leadership was one of the very reasons why they wanted to colonize Merca while the people of Barawa paid tribute and accepted their leadership.

Do not ignore this source I posted which earlier which clearly states Barawa was part of Geledi Sultanate since they paid tribute to Geledi sultans.

Here is a source of Geledi controlling Kismayo: https://www.triposo.com/loc/Kismayo/history/background

It tells you the history of Kismayo.

Logically, ports have ships and have trade networks around the world and since Rahanweyn aren't landlocked and had ports and were ruled by the Geledi back then. It shouldn't be rocket science for Geledi Sultanate being a trading kingdom. They were a wealthy and southern Arabia depended on their gains and other crops. Grant, you're full of shit. I showed you the evidence on which ports they controlled over so give up your revisionism.

 

[madaxweyne]

Without data, your claims are more than bold enough for me.

Actually, it does matter. The Dir, Yibir and Goboye are all still there, and all claim to have preceded V32. It would be nice just to know what the real story was.

Population replacement is exactly what we are talking about.

what population replaement are you blabbering about old man
hapologroup t and E-M35 are assosiated with west Eurasian natufian farmers
and have been in the region since those farmers arrived in the horn of africa

and those west eurasian farmers or afro asiatic cushitic migrants have been
in the region ever since and gave birth to the somalis

so therefore t and e are both native somali haplogroups, doesn't matter what area
has more T or what area has more E-M35

 

[Grant]

what population replaement are you blabbering about old man
hapologroup t and E-M35 are assosiated with west Eurasian natufian farmers
and have been in the region since those farmers arrived in the horn of africa

and those west eurasian farmers or afro asiatic cushitic migrants have been
in the region ever since and gave birth to the somalis

so therefore t and e are both native somali haplogroups, doesn't matter what area
has more T or what area has more E-M35

Nothing on Luling..

Nothing on Geledi ports or ships.

Yusuf was never able to consolidate his dominance of the South, and never got to Kismayu. He was killed and his army routed when he attempted to seize a port from the Biimaal. Same for Axmed. Their former allies changed sides over the issue of dominance.

Population replacement in the North involved at least the Dir, Yibir and Gaboye. and probably E-V6, A-M13 and E-M123. The Afroasiatic elements in Somalis come from the Cushitic homeland in northeastern Sudan.

Now, go read some real history.

 

[James Dahl]

I don't believe in the population replacement theory, there's no evidence for it.

The Yibir are an ancient Waaqist holy lineage, a lineage with "yibire" or magical powers. This went from them having enormous prestige in Waaqist times to being looked upon with suspicion in Islamic times, and their secret language is just Old Somali, probably the Waaqist liturgical language.

Dir is a more complex issue but I think they arrived with Somali into the horn around the same time.

Gaboye and other Waata-esque clans are occupational clans with occupations looked down upon, in the Gaboye are hunters and in the Waaqist social hierarchy (which still culturally predominates) hunting, blacksmithing, fishing and weaving were beneath the dignity of noble clans. I don't believe their origins are significantly different from other cushitic peoples.

There is a very good chance that Cushitic people were the first humans to recolonize the horn of Africa after the ice age. During the ice age, the Horn was practically uninhabitable with only a few remote areas of the southern highlands being habitable. With the sudden climate shift about 10,000 years ago the true desert became grassland and was recolonized, and this is about when Cushitic people are supposed to have established themselves in the horn.

 

[Grant]

I don't believe in the population replacement theory, there's no evidence for it.

The Yibir are an ancient Waaqist holy lineage, a lineage with "yibire" or magical powers. This went from them having enormous prestige in Waaqist times to being looked upon with suspicion in Islamic times, and their secret language is just Old Somali, probably the Waaqist liturgical language.

Dir is a more complex issue but I think they arrived with Somali into the horn around the same time.

Gaboye and other Waata-esque clans are occupational clans with occupations looked down upon, in the Gaboye are hunters and in the Waaqist social hierarchy (which still culturally predominates) hunting, blacksmithing, fishing and weaving were beneath the dignity of noble clans. I don't believe their origins are significantly different from other cushitic peoples.

There is a very good chance that Cushitic people were the first humans to recolonize the horn of Africa after the ice age. During the ice age, the Horn was practically uninhabitable with only a few remote areas of the southern highlands being habitable. With the sudden climate shift about 10,000 years ago the true desert became grassland and was recolonized, and this is about when Cushitic people are supposed to have established themselves in the horn.

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/...akaba-southern-somalia-20-000-5-000-bp.54001/

https://usm.maine.edu/sites/default...Range Site, Buur Hakaba, southern Somalia.pdf

https://www.academia.edu/14372861/M...ion_Art_Script_Time_Urbanism_Trade_and_Empire

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ddle_and_Late_Stone_Age_in_the_Horn_of_Africa

 

[James Dahl]

Come on man what are all these links supposed to prove, can you summarize them I don't have all day to read articles

 

[James Dahl]

I see you cited the Bur Heybe range and probably a wikipedia article but what I've seen of the Eyle language is it's cushitic. There is no evidence that Eyle aren't an occupational clan like Yibir or Gaboye or the weavers of Banaadir.

 

[Grant]

Come on man what are all these links supposed to prove, can you summarize them I don't have all day to read articles

Obviously. Perhaps you should.

There are no Wiki articles there. For crying out loud!

Sada Mire discusses multiple cultures in the North.

The archaeological papers discuss sites going back 16-20 KYA and stoneage cultures that clearly precede any pastoral group, north or south.

All hunter-gatherer groups in East Africa changed language.

https://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/11443

See the index and pages following 16.
--------------------------------------

The Eyle go back 20 Kya at the Rifle Range and Gogoshiis Qabe sites.

Check this:

https://usm.maine.edu/sites/default...Range Site, Buur Hakaba, southern Somalia.pdf