Demonstrating how easily the Arabic script can be repurposed for Soomaali

[Som]

I don't really buy that most of the reer miyi were illiterate. This not even true of the last 200 years. They were functionally illiterate in that they could not read and write in a language they actually understood but it seems like, as you can see with some of the examples I shared in this thread's opening post, it was fairly common as it is today for young children to be taught how to read and write the Qur'an by travelling Wadaads using those wooden boards and this practice seemed already mature, common and well-established by the 19th century, alluding to it being quite old but who knows. This is common across the Muslim world, by the way. A lot of rural Muslims across the Sahara and Nile Valley, for example, were actually "literate" and were similarly taught to read the Qur'an.

Anyway, I dunno, walaal. Whether or not it was super popular is kind of irrelevant? We're arguing about whether or not we historically used the script to write in Somali. We have a clear established history of it being used in the last 200 years and seeming developed and mature by that point then people locally claim this has been going on for generations, we already know Arabic itself has been used for a millennia and have many accounts to corroborate this, and the guy they attribute Far Wadaad to turns out to be real and a proven real by sources completely outside the Horn itself. I have no reason to assume they were lying especially since it all makes sense and lines up. Why do you insist on thinking they did? And for the record, Hararis only really began transcribing their language in the Arabic script, if we are to be religious about accounts and how far the corpus goes back, around the early modern era barely a century before when you insist Somalis did. There's no account that their language or ethnic group even existed before around the 17th century. They are not even mentioned once as a people in the Futux al-Xabasha (16th century) are not seemingly the Harla who appear to be a totally distinct group who are not from Harar.

All that aside, I hate to personalize discussions like this but it feels like you have a general pattern of diminishing your own folk, walaal. I've seen an old thread of yours where you were implying Somalis were never seafarers and outside tradesmen until you were presented with pictorial and written evidence to the contrary. Some simple googling should have shown you as much that Somalis traded across the Indian Ocean quite regularly and were definitely seafarers:

Not to mention accounts from medieval Arabs and classical Greeks describing extensive trade with outside groups and the exact same kinds of sewn Indian ocean boats that we, Arabs, Indians and Swahili coast folk have used for at least 2,000 years. Without these accounts I guess you'd start claiming Somalis only started fishing, seafaring and venturing to foreign ports during the 17th-18th centuries? This is not how historical study and inquiry is conducted, walaal. Everything isn't about written accounts. Some amount of logic, archaeological evidence, comparative linguistics and several other avenues are considered along with historical texts to form the big picture. Even oral traditions, believe it or not, are not useless but in fact often highly indispensable. To be honest, you'd be shocked how intense even something like oral traditions can be. You have Aborigines seeming to account events that occurred thousands of years ago in their myths:

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

Somali and Arab oral traditions are even more legit given that these are societies who arguably even more highly value preserving oral traditions and not corrupting them. If you're going to try and debunk this with the qabiil origin myths; those were most likely intentionally told the way they were told to make Somalis closer to Islam but even those people couldn't help but weave in highly illuminating historical insights like Waaqist story elements and give away our pre-Islamic faith to some extent.

A lot of young suugo scientists who don't know how historical study works come in with this "Chinese whispers" nonsense and think that means all oral traditions are useless. Very silly stuff. You'd be surprised how much Somali history in Koonfur some scholars were able to reconstruct I would argue very accurately, along with some written texts here and there from the early modern era and middle ages, by linking it with what clans lived in which settlements like coastal towns and interior villages, local linguistics, archaeology and cultural anthropology.

But anyway, I'm going off topic. Point is, it often feels like you try to diminish/downplay Somalis quite a bit though I don't think this comes from any maliciousness but rather cuqdad and an inability to believe Somalis achieved much throughout history that borders on wanting it to be that way masquerading as healthy skepticism. Can't blame you. The last 30 years have been rough but don't let that make you see your people as qasaro or something, walaal. If I have strawmanned you with this then apologies in advance and forgive me.



It's not the 1970s. The world is digital now. It's not remotely as costly to make a script change and it could work to even boost literacy as many even reer miyi can read some Arabic let alone reer tuulo iyo magaal who go to dugsi. Periplus is correct in that more people in Somaliweyn right now most likely know how to read the Arabic script than the Latin script and in a more complex Qur'anic form than what I am suggesting. For a lot of people it wouldn't even be a script change.

Anyway to be clear I'm not dimissing oral traditions entirely. The only difference between oral and written tradition is that the latter is less likely to change , this doesn't mean that written accounts are always true or accurate. Somali oral traditions are very useful but should be carefully studied to distinguish facts from fiction.
Another example unrelated to somalis that shows how oral history can be twisted is the Swahili traditions. Swahili folks have oral history saying Arabs and Persians founded their cities, modern historians now realize that the Swahili culture started as an indigenous culture and welcomed Arabs/Persians later on. Arabs/Persians influence was vastly overestimated by Swahili oral traditions because they wanted to claim Arab/Persian lineage for religious prestige. The same happened in Somalia. Some oral traditions over estimate Arab influence in the Banadir coast and even in the northern coast, as you know the qabil mythology is a clear example of this

 

[Som]

Nacalaa... You sent this right as I was about to post:

@Som

It seems I straw-manned and misunderstood you. I apologize, walaal. I got around to reading this thread more and it seems to me you are not the reductionist or self-hater I got into my head that you are. Sincerest apologies. Seems the reductionist is actually @Grant who seemed to claim to me recently via DMs, with no proof, that all Somali vessels used to travel outside of the Somali coast were from the Omanis.

The sheer coincidence.

No problem bro. This website is full of anti somali self haters, sometimes it's hard to tell those who ask genuine question and those who have an agenda.

 

[The alchemist]

Nacalaa... You sent this right as I was about to post:

@Som

It seems I straw-manned and misunderstood you. I apologize, walaal. I got around to reading this thread more and it seems to me you are not the reductionist or self-hater I got into my head that you are. Sincerest apologies. Seems the reductionist is actually @Grant who seemed to claim to me recently via DMs, with no proof, that all Somali vessels used to travel outside of the Somali coast were from the Omanis.

The sheer coincidence.

Factoring the age of @Grant, he might be from an orientalist school of thought in reading historical works.

 

[Shimbiris]

Factoring the age of @Grant, he might be from an orientalist school of thought in reading historical works.

Might be so. I'm confused by him, though. In another thread I'm re-reading right now I see he seems to be equating Cushitic with the Kingdom of Kush (?), in another arguing for Bantus being "native" to Koonfur and Xamar being part of Zanj (?), and now this. Lots of "interesting" views.

Anyway, he DM-ed me asking about Somali ships and argued that Somalis only used fishing type boats that weren't really used to sail out to sea like the ones Neville Chittick describes below or the ones pictured here at Jstor that were locally made:



And that Somalis apparently needed Arabians to ship them to places like Yemen and elsewhere or that any ships Somalis might have used for sailing were built in Arabia. Well, I found him some sources that show Somalis definitely did seem to sail on their own and posses their own sail boats during the 1800s and 1900s and at no point can I see that any of the texts say the sailboats are made by outsiders:

This source from the mid 1800s is owed to Captain John Hanning Speke who was in the north for a time and describes that the Warsangeli and Isaaq had sea vessels for travelling to Yemen and conducting warfare at sea:

The Warsangali complained to me sadly of their decline in power since the English had interfered in their fights with the (Isaaq), which took place near Aden about seven years ago, and had deprived them of their vessels for creating a disturbance, which interfered with the ordinary routine of Traffic. They said that on that occasion, they had not only beaten (Isaaq) but had seized their vessels; and that prior to this rupture, they had enjoyed paramount superiority over all the tribes of the Somali; but now they were forbidden to transport Soldiers or make reprisals on the sea, every tribe was on an equality with them." (Chapter II the Voyage-Somali Shore, Gerad Mohamoud Ali Shire).

This source is from an Australian author named Alan Villiers (book: Sons of Sinbad) who seems to write about encountering Somali sailors during the early 1900s who sail and trade in "Somali Sambuks"

This source is from Richard Pankhurst and is basically an autobiography of a Warsangeli guy from around the late 1800s to early 1900s who settled in Britain after the end of World War I. Pankhurst's opening statement is:

The Somali people, notably those of the Gulf of Aden Coast, have a well-established tradition of sea-faring and travel to foreign lands.

He writes this as though it was common knowledge then he proceeds to give us the guy's account where he describes ending up in Aden by stowing away on a local Somali sailor's dhow which he in this case he actually refers to as a "dooni" (what the (10) reference points out):

One day I saw, on the beach, a man who was loading a dhow (10) with gum and incense, and was going to that city of dreams. I naturally begged and prayed that he should take me with him. At last he agreed and off we sailed. Though the captain of the boat happened to be a clansman of nine, no attention was paid to me during the voyage; but I had to watch when the food was ready, to put in an appearance, and I knew that they would never turn me away

Later this Warsangeli chap also describes other Somalis sailing this time in an "Arab Dhow" that he sails along on:

In Berbera I met a kinsman who was the boatswain i20) of a small Arabian dhow. I jumped, uninvited, on his boat and he let me work for my keep. For those who do not know what a small dhow is like, I may say that it is covered only by a small deck at the prow, on which the cooking is done and where the boys sit, and another small deck at the stern, where the men - sailors and occasional passengers - squat. The bottom of the boat is occupied by the cargo. It has a lateen sail fixed on a very tall mast, and a small similar sail further back.

The dhow I was on carried rice, dates, durra, and other foodstuffs between various settlements on the Somali coast, mainly Berbera, Karin and Bulhar.

I was employed as a « boy » and helped to cook the food, to row the seamen to and from the coast, and when they were ashore to bring them their meals from the boat. I was always at the beck and call of the sailors and if I was not quick enough to obey I was thrashed with a rope (21).

Another source based on an Italian document from the late 1800s also describes that the Majeerteen came down to Koonfur using dhows:

In the years that followed, increasing numbers of traders from Hobya and Majeerteenia came in dhows to Marka and to the new town of Kismaayo.

And there's also this source published in 1815 describing how Somalis (Majeerteens, basically) from around the northeast coast trade in their own vessels with Aden and Mocha:

Alongside a rather funny story from the late 1800s of runaway Swahili slaves stealing a sailing boat from their Majeerteen masters and being rescued by the British who refused to give them and the ship back when the MJs tried to pull a fast one and claim the slaves were just deserting soldiers:

From Sultan Uthman b. Mahmud. Praise be to God alone. To the paragon of commanders, our beloved and our friend, the governor of Aden, kind sir. What we want is two things: First, to be in communication with you. Second, soldiers of ours disappeared taking a sanbuq. What we want is that you send the soldiers and [the] sanbuq to us, in as much as we protect your friends. As for Samatar Uthman, he has complained about you, but (we think that) negotiations will bring agreement.

Then there's this later source from the early 1900s talking of seizing Majeerteen merchant boats:

By neutralising Hobyo, the fascists could concentrate on the Majeerteen. In early October 1924, E. Coronaro, the new Alula commissioner, presented Boqor Osman with an ultimatum to disarm and surrender. Meanwhile, Italian troops began to pour into the sultanate in anticipation of this operation. While landing at Haafuun and Alula, the sultanate's troops opened fire on them. Fierce fighting ensued and to avoid escalating the conflict and to press the fascist government to revoke their policy, Boqor Osman tried to open a dialogue. However, he failed, and again fighting broke out between the two parties. Following this disturbance, on 7 October the Governor instructed Coronaro to order the Sultan to surrender; to intimidate the people he ordered the seizure of all merchant boats in the Alula area. At Haafuun, Arimondi bombarded and destroyed all the boats in the area.

I've also seen some 19th century pictorial examples of Somalis sailing like this which is from Le Tour du Monde. Nouveau Journal des Voyages. 1er et 2nd semestre Hardcover – January 1, 1885 and is apparently of Somalis, as you can tell, transporting some ajanabis though I have to get my hands on the original and see:

Not to mention that I can't find any sources claiming the Somalis' sailboats are from Arabia and not locally made like the fishing boats which we have evidence of being made locally. That just seems made up on his part. But anyway, what you see above is all just stuff I managed to dig up in about a day. Weird that the saaxiib has held these views seemingly for at least 2 years or more and never encountered any of this. "Orientalist" confirmation bias is quite something, it seems.

 

[Som]

Might be so. I'm confused by him, though. In another thread I'm re-reading right now I see he seems to be equating Cushitic with the Kingdom of Kush (?), in another arguing for Bantus being "native" to Koonfur and Xamar being part of Zanj (?), and now this. Lots of "interesting" views.

Anyway, he DM-ed me asking about Somali ships and argued that Somalis only used fishing type boats that weren't really used to sail out to sea like the ones Neville Chittick describes below or the ones pictured here at Jstor that were locally made:



And that Somalis apparently needed Arabians to ship them to places like Yemen and elsewhere or that any ships Somalis might have used for sailing were built in Arabia. Well, I found him some sources that show Somalis definitely did seem to sail on their own and posses their own sail boats during the 1800s and 1900s and at no point can I see that any of the texts say the sailboats are made by outsiders:

This source from the mid 1800s is owed to Captain John Hanning Speke who was in the north for a time and describes that the Warsangeli and Isaaq had sea vessels for travelling to Yemen and conducting warfare at sea:



This source is from an Australian author named Alan Villiers (book: Sons of Sinbad) who seems to write about encountering Somali sailors during the early 1900s who sail and trade in "Somali Sambuks"

This source is from Richard Pankhurst and is basically an autobiography of a Warsangeli guy from around the late 1800s to early 1900s who settled in Britain after the end of World War I. Pankhurst's opening statement is:



He writes this as though it was common knowledge then he proceeds to give us the guy's account where he describes ending up in Aden by stowing away on a local Somali sailor's dhow which he in this case he actually refers to as a "dooni" (what the (10) reference points out):



Later this Warsangeli chap also describes other Somalis sailing this time in an "Arab Dhow" that he sails along on:



Another source based on an Italian document from the late 1800s also describes that the Majeerteen came down to Koonfur using dhows:



And there's also this source published in 1815 describing how Somalis (Majeerteens, basically) from around the northeast coast trade in their own vessels with Aden and Mocha:

Alongside a rather funny story from the late 1800s of runaway Swahili slaves stealing a sailing boat from their Majeerteen masters and being rescued by the British who refused to give them and the ship back when the MJs tried to pull a fast one and claim the slaves were just deserting soldiers:



Then there's this later source from the early 1900s talking of seizing Majeerteen merchant boats:



I've also seen some 19th century pictorial examples of Somalis sailing like this which is from Le Tour du Monde. Nouveau Journal des Voyages. 1er et 2nd semestre Hardcover – January 1, 1885 and is apparently of Somalis, as you can tell, transporting some ajanabis though I have to get my hands on the original and see:

Not to mention that I can't find any sources claiming the Somalis' sailboats are from Arabia and not locally made like the fishing boats which we have evidence of being made locally. That just seems made up on his part. But anyway, what you see above is all just stuff I managed to dig up in about a day. Weird that the saaxiib has held these views seemingly for at least 2 years or more and never encountered any of this. "Orientalist" confirmation bias is quite something, it seems.

I think Grant confuses many things or purposely ignore this simple concept. Civilizations and technology is always SHARED between different people. I have no problems accepting that somali boats had influences from the techniques used by Arabs , that's just people sharing knowledge and technology. Saying those boats were Arab made is like saying every single airplane or car in the world is American made because it was invented in America.

 

[The alchemist]

Might be so. I'm confused by him, though. In another thread I'm re-reading right now I see he seems to be equating Cushitic with the Kingdom of Kush (?), in another arguing for Bantus being "native" to Koonfur and Xamar being part of Zanj (?), and now this. Lots of "interesting" views.

Anyway, he DM-ed me asking about Somali ships and argued that Somalis only used fishing type boats that weren't really used to sail out to sea like the ones Neville Chittick describes below or the ones pictured here at Jstor that were locally made:



And that Somalis apparently needed Arabians to ship them to places like Yemen and elsewhere or that any ships Somalis might have used for sailing were built in Arabia. Well, I found him some sources that show Somalis definitely did seem to sail on their own and posses their own sail boats during the 1800s and 1900s and at no point can I see that any of the texts say the sailboats are made by outsiders:

This source from the mid 1800s is owed to Captain John Hanning Speke who was in the north for a time and describes that the Warsangeli and Isaaq had sea vessels for travelling to Yemen and conducting warfare at sea:



This source is from an Australian author named Alan Villiers (book: Sons of Sinbad) who seems to write about encountering Somali sailors during the early 1900s who sail and trade in "Somali Sambuks"

This source is from Richard Pankhurst and is basically an autobiography of a Warsangeli guy from around the late 1800s to early 1900s who settled in Britain after the end of World War I. Pankhurst's opening statement is:



He writes this as though it was common knowledge then he proceeds to give us the guy's account where he describes ending up in Aden by stowing away on a local Somali sailor's dhow which he in this case he actually refers to as a "dooni" (what the (10) reference points out):



Later this Warsangeli chap also describes other Somalis sailing this time in an "Arab Dhow" that he sails along on:



Another source based on an Italian document from the late 1800s also describes that the Majeerteen came down to Koonfur using dhows:



And there's also this source published in 1815 describing how Somalis (Majeerteens, basically) from around the northeast coast trade in their own vessels with Aden and Mocha:

Alongside a rather funny story from the late 1800s of runaway Swahili slaves stealing a sailing boat from their Majeerteen masters and being rescued by the British who refused to give them and the ship back when the MJs tried to pull a fast one and claim the slaves were just deserting soldiers:



Then there's this later source from the early 1900s talking of seizing Majeerteen merchant boats:



I've also seen some 19th century pictorial examples of Somalis sailing like this which is from Le Tour du Monde. Nouveau Journal des Voyages. 1er et 2nd semestre Hardcover – January 1, 1885 and is apparently of Somalis, as you can tell, transporting some ajanabis though I have to get my hands on the original and see:

Not to mention that I can't find any sources claiming the Somalis' sailboats are from Arabia and not locally made like the fishing boats which we have evidence of being made locally. That just seems made up on his part. But anyway, what you see above is all just stuff I managed to dig up in about a day. Weird that the saaxiib has held these views seemingly for at least 2 years or more and never encountered any of this. "Orientalist" confirmation bias is quite something, it seems.

Thank you for the valuable information saxiib.

 

[Shimbiris]

I think Grant confuses many things or purposely ignore this simple concept. Civilizations and technology is always SHARED between different people. I have no problems accepting that somali boats had influences from the techniques used by Arabs , that's just people sharing knowledge and technology. Saying those boats were Arab made is like saying every single airplane or car in the world is American made because it was invented in America.

Absolutely. It's always interesting how "outside influences", which are normal and natural throughout human history, suddenly become so important when talking about African groups like us and Swahilis. It helps run home this idea of theirs that we're "inferior peoples" who need "superior" folks like MENAs to lift us up, I guess.

Though, funnily enough, cadaans often claimed Somalis were "Caucasoids" and used us, other Horners, Nubians as well as Northern and Southern Cushites to discredit madow folks like Bantus of all sorts. Every interesting cultural find that was actually associated with groups like Bantus had to have come from "Hamites", lol. I think I recall them even claiming Great Zimbabwe was "Hamitic" in origin.

Yet they completely ignore that Europe owes things like agriculture and civilization to the Middle-East via the Aegean which genetically and culturally had far more to do with the rest of the Eastern Mediterranean (MENA) than the rest of "Europe". This is what even Mediterranean Italy looked like before Greek influences set-in:

This is what it began to look like after Greek influences set-in:

Even the Latin script @Apollo keeps mentioning comes from Old Italic scripts that descend from the Ancient Greek alphabet. Alphabet... hmm... sounds so much like "Alif-Ba" in Arabic. I wonder why? Oh, it's because that, and the Greek script, comes from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet#:~:text=The%20Phoenician%20alphabet%20is%20also,a%20multi%2Ddirectional%20writing%20system%2C

 

[Shimbiris]

Thank you for the valuable information saxiib.

I'm really giggling over here at how I've derailed my own thread but I found yet more sources.

Here is one from the start of the 1900s describing Somali Dhows that make their way all the way to Dubai and Sharjah as well as Muscat and generally in the Perso-Arabian Gulf waters:

Here is also another source from around the same period of time describing Somali Dhows off the coast of Cape Guardafui rescuing some 500 passengers and crew and plundering wreckage as well:

This same book mentions quite a lot of interesting cultural stuff around seafaring and fishing among Red Sea and Indian Ocean peoples like Bejas, Tigres, Afars, Somalis, Afars and Arabs. Really recommend giving it a read. One little interesting tidbit from it that calls back to that Pankhurst source on that man's autobiography is that Somalis seem to often refer to dhows as "Dooni" ("Doon" being the Somali word for boat) whilst Afars also use "Doonik/Dhoonik":

The guy it mentions, Henri de Monfreid, is also very interesting because he apparently sailed with Somali sailors during the early 20th century and eventually acquired and manned his own ship:

Even apparently had himself a longtime and faithful Somali boatswain (ship's officer) among them named Abdi. Though this is seemingly an instance of Somalis manning a non-Somali's boat. If you are more interested in Somalis with their own boats then I also found more from that author Alan Villiers' book (Sons of Sinbad). A part where he describes Somali sailors all the way in Zanzibar with their "Sambuks" and he shows us what a "Sambuk" looks like:

​

This one is a source I just have excerpts of unlike the others. Really wanna get my hands on the original but can't find digital copies so far. I'm told he even mentions Hafun and I'm not sure but I think he mentions that it's a shipbuilding spot like we know it was in the late 1900s for smaller fishing type vessels.

@Apollo @Som @Periplus How did I find all of this after like a day and a half and this @Grant fellow apparently didn't for years whilst seeming so sure Somalis didn't sail beyond their own shores? In that short time frame I've managed to dig up several sources pointing to there being Somali sailors from the early 1800s to the early 1900s going anywhere from Mocha to Aden to Muscat to Dubai to Sharjah to Zanzibar.

 

[The alchemist]

I'm really giggling over here at how I've derailed my own thread but I found yet more sources.

Here is one from the start of the 1900s describing Somali Dhows that make their way all the way to Dubai and Sharjah as well as Muscat and generally in the Perso-Arabian Gulf waters in part to transport wood back home for building (Building what, I wonder? Boats made in Arabia? ):

Here is also another source from around the same period of time describing Somali Dhows off the coast of Cape Guardafui rescuing some 500 passengers and crew and plundering wreckage as well:

This same book mentions quite a lot of interesting cultural stuff around seafaring and fishing among Red Sea and Indian Ocean peoples like Bejas, Tigres, Afars, Somalis, Afars and Arabs. Really recommend giving it a read. One little interesting tidbit from it that calls back to that Pankhurst source on that man's autobiography is that Somalis seem to often refer to dhows as "Dooni" ("Doon" being the Somali word for boat) whilst Afars also use "Doonik/Dhoonik":

The guy it mentions, Henri de Monfreid, is also very interesting because he apparently sailed with Somali sailors during the early 20th century and eventually acquired and manned his own ship:

Even apparently had himself a longtime and faithful Somali boatswain (ship's officer) among them named Abdi. Though this is seemingly an instance of Somalis manning a non-Somali's boat. If you are more interested in Somalis with their own boats then I also found more from that author Alan Villiers' book (Sons of Sinbad). A part where he describes Somali sailors all the way in Zanzibar with their "Sambuks" and he shows us what a "Sambuk" looks like:

​

This one is a source I just have excerpts of unlike the others. Really wanna get my hands on the original but can't find digital copies so far. I'm told he even mentions Hafun and I'm not sure but I think he mentions that it's a shipbuilding spot like we know it was in the late 1900s for smaller fishing type vessels.

@Apollo @Som @Periplus How did I find all of this after like a day and a half and this @Grant fellow apparently didn't for years whilst seeming so sure Somalis didn't sail beyond their own shores? In that short time frame I've managed to dig up several sources pointing to there being Somali sailors from the early 1800s to the early 1900s going anywhere from Mocha to Aden to Muscat to Dubai to Sharjah to Zanzibar.

This is some solid stuff.

Thanks for the material. I will enjoy reading it.

 

[Shimbiris]

This is some solid stuff.

Thanks for the material. I will enjoy reading it.

You're welcome. I found some more recent stuff as well. Like the French showing that, much like the smaller fishing vessels we saw in the northeast accounted for by Chittick, the sailboat "Sambuks" were being constructed locally until very recently by reer Jabuuti Somalis:

They also show us examples of both smaller fishing type vessels ("Huori") and the larger sailing vessels ("Sambouk"), the latter of which looks an awful lot like what we see in Sons of Sinbad almost half a century prior:

They further show us two other types of boat types named "Zeima" and "Zaroug":

Including, as a random aside, this picture of what looks like the smaller fishing vessel variety around 1915, though I can't confirm the men on board are not Afar even though the French wikipedia page for Dhows seems to claim they're Somalis:

I've even seen many Somali Sambuks/Dhows in recent times though they're not really sailboats nowadays and are made to run on motors. Here is one off the coast of Mombasa:

And I only share it because what little I can see of its look reminds me of this illustration from the Somali Shilling of local boatbuilding:

They didn't put boat-building on the currency the way they did basket weaving for no reason. It clearly seems to have been a normal, provable part of the culture like basket weaving. @Grant How have you gone years without finding all the stuff I've shared so far? This man actually claimed to me that only Banjunis historically had boats that could sail off the Somali coast.

@Alhazred @Apollo @Jotaro Kujo @Clllam @Som @Periplus

 

[hinters]

No need to use Arabic script, just fix latin script and get rid of those ugly double vowels.

Dōrashada Sōmāliya: Maxay ka dhigan tahay in askar badan ay noqdān xubno bārlamān?

 

[SPMLegend]

I say we develop our own language script. It will give us atleast something to be prideful of. I mean look at the Ethiopians they have their own Geēz scriptures and alphabets. Af-Somali literature should remove the disgusting Latin western writing & establish our own scripts. We should neither take the alphabets of the Arab nor the white men. We must separate religion from cultural literature. Somalis need their own writing.

 

[Awad]

I dont get it - if everyone secretly knows the Arabic script then why has literacy rates been drastically low for most of Somalias history?

 

[Periplus]

I dont get it - if everyone secretly knows the Arabic script then why has literacy rates been drastically low for most of Somalias history?

I am really sorry but this is probably the stupidest thing I’ve read in ages bro.

Wdym “secretly knows Arabic script”?!?!

It ain’t no secret, every Muslim in the world knows the Arabic alphabet and can read Arabic.

Somalis even more so, because they go to dugsi and have to write the Quran on wooden tablets.

As for the literacy rates….

Dude wtf?!?!

The literacy statistics count the amount of Somalis that can read Somali.

Since Somali is in the Latin script, therefore those numbers reflect the amount of Somalis that can read in Latin.

It’s like asking why England’s literacy numbers don’t include English people that read English words using the Chinese script.

Since England doesn’t use the Chinese script for English but rather the Latin one, it is stupid to even assume this scenario even being plausible.

 

[Awad]

I am really sorry but this is probably the stupidest thing I’ve read in ages bro.

Wdym “secretly knows Arabic script”?!?!

It ain’t no secret, every Muslim in the world knows the Arabic alphabet and can read Arabic.

Somalis even more so, because they go to dugsi and have to write the Quran on wooden tablets.

As for the literacy rates….

Dude wtf?!?!

The literacy statistics count the amount of Somalis that can read Somali.

Since Somali is in the Latin script, therefore those numbers reflect the amount of Somalis that can read in Latin.

It’s like asking why England’s literacy numbers don’t include English people that read English words using the Chinese script.

Since England doesn’t use the Chinese script for English but rather the Latin one, it is stupid to even assume this scenario even being plausible.

I'm not talking about post-20th century bro, Somalia's literacy rate even prior to the adoption of Latin has always been fairly small. I'm genuinely confused on what you're disagreeing with exactly?

I said "if everyone secretly knows the Arabic script' as an expression of my disbelief that the vast majority of Somalis are literate, it wasn't serious mate.

 

[hinters]

I'm not talking about the 20th century bro, Somalia's literacy rate even prior to the adoption of Latin has always been fairly small. I'm genuinely confused on what you're disagreeing with exactly?

He's saying that even if all Somalis can read the arabic script that wouldn't affect the literacy rate because Somali is not written in the arabic script.

 

[Awad]

He's saying that even if all Somalis can read the arabic script that wouldn't affect the literacy rate because Somali is not written in the arabic script.

Yeah of course but official statistics don't really counter my point. If the vast majority of Somalis could read and write in Arabic then there would be visible evidence of a strong literary tradition. This is clearly not the case

 

[Periplus]

Yeah of course but official statistics don't really counter my point. If the vast majority of Somalis could read and write in Arabic then there would be visible evidence of a strong literary tradition. This is clearly not the case

Yes because Somalis 100 years ago were mostly nomadic people who didn’t have access to dugsi.

Therefore, many couldn’t even read the Quran or even know how to pray salah. It is no surprise there was little literary tradition.

However, there is a lot of evidence dating back to the 12th Century of Somali being written in the Arabic script, from letters to inscriptions and books.

Those in the cities who had access to religious education could write in the script or spoke Arabic. However, they were a small minority as most Somalis lived in the countryside.

Now, unlike prior to colonialism, everyone goes to dugsi and can read the Quran and therefore Arabic.

Even those that cannot afford to send their kids to school take their kids to Dugsi.

 

[Awad]

Yes because Somalis 100 years ago were mostly nomadic people who didn’t have access to dugsi.

Therefore, many couldn’t even read the Quran or even know how to pray salah. It is no surprise there was little literary tradition.

However, there is a lot of evidence dating back to the 12th Century of Somali being written in the Arabic script, from letters to inscriptions and books.

Those in the cities who had access to religious education could write in the script or spoke Arabic. However, they were a small minority as most Somalis lived in the countryside.

Now, unlike prior to colonialism, everyone goes to dugsi and can read the Quran and therefore Arabic.

Even those that cannot afford to send their kids to school take their kids to Dugsi.

So a country that is still largely preindustrialized and nomadic today, managed to in a century, become largely literate through primarily informal means
Do you have any sources for these claims? I find this very hard to believe

 

[Periplus]

So a country that is still largely preindustrialized and nomadic today, managed to in a century, become largely literate through primarily informal means
Do you have any sources for these claims? I find this very hard to believe

I don’t need stats to prove that there are infinitely more dugsis today than there are 100 years ago.

100 years ago, there were probably 5 modern schools in Somalia, let alone dugsi. Now, there are thousands.

Ask your grandparents, how hard it was to learn how to read the Quran in the old days compared to today.