History Can you give me any evidence of Somalis doing maritime trade outside Somalia?

From what a read in most sources it seems that somalis were only involved in buying and selling stuff from foreigner traders(arabs, indians etc) who came to our country. I'm not sure if I've ever heard of somalis transporting goods to/from India or even Arabia.
Do you have any reliable sources on somali maritime trade and seafaring abilities? Obviously I'm looking for pre 20th century sources.
 

Helios

VIP
Northern Somalis were big time traders in Aden Yemen

1600360918585.png

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An Account of the British Settlement of Aden in Arabia
By Frederick Mercer Hunter

Thanks. I guess this is in the 19th century. Do you have any source that dates before that time?
And also, do you have any information on traditional somali boats in the north?
Ships Alula Puntland with natives (19th century)
1600361630204.png
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I'll look for the other source
 
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Just need a few sources no wikipedia, only actual books.
This is not a challenge , I'm not knowledgeable in this field and i want some more information. Please don't take this as an anti somali provocation, let's be civilized walaalayaal.
 
Northern Somalis were big time traders in Aden Yemen

View attachment 141534
View attachment 141535


An Account of the British Settlement of Aden in Arabia
By Frederick Mercer Hunter



Ships Alula Puntland with natives (19th century) View attachment 141536View attachment 141537

I'll look for the other source
Thank you, these ships look like beden style boats also used by omanis, sawahilis.
I guess we started using this tyoe of ship in the 16th century maybe and it's compatible for shot distance sailing to Arabia.
Thanks.
 
Sydney R Welch, Portuguese Rule and Spanish Crown in South Africa 1581-1640, Cape Town and Johannesburg, 1950, pp 25-27:

The Mogadishu merchants sent about 20 "pangaios", small rudderless boats only capable of inshore travel, with Mir Ali Bey during the 1585 raid on Lamu. They were essentially useless since there was no fighting and the experiment was not repeated during the unsuccessful raid on Mombassa in 1589, which ended the Ottomans in the Indian Ocean.

The "pangaios" were probably lighters from the port of Mogadishu.
-----------------------------------------------
The Bajunis and other Swahili peoples used "mtepe" boats, similar to the Omani beden.

Swahili boats:

The design of the dhows, of a later date, originate in Oman.

Omani ships

Historical Overview: Continuity and Change in the Indian Ocean
Does not mention Somali ships or sailors.



Has anyone found evidence for non-Swahili shipbuilding in Somalia?
 

Helios

VIP
Sydney R Welch, Portuguese Rule and Spanish Crown in South Africa 1581-1640, Cape Town and Johannesburg, 1950, pp 25-27:

The Mogadishu merchants sent about 20 "pangaios", small rudderless boats only capable of inshore travel, with Mir Ali Bey during the 1585 raid on Lamu. They were essentially useless since there was no fighting and the experiment was not repeated during the unsuccessful raid on Mombassa in 1589, which ended the Ottomans in the Indian Ocean.

The "pangaios" were probably lighters from the port of Mogadishu.
-----------------------------------------------
The Bajunis and other Swahili peoples used "mtepe" boats, similar to the Omani beden.

Swahili boats:

The design of the dhows, of a later date, originate in Oman.

Omani ships

Historical Overview: Continuity and Change in the Indian Ocean
Does not mention Somali ships or sailors.



Has anyone found evidence for non-Swahili shipbuilding in Somalia?
You never stop you cuqdad ridden old man :icon lol:

Read his question properly

"From what a read in most sources it seems that somalis were only involved in buying and selling stuff from foreigner traders(arabs, indians etc) who came to our country. I'm not sure if I've ever heard of somalis transporting goods to/from India or even Arabia.
Do you have any reliable sources on somali maritime trade and seafaring abilities?
He wants to know if Somalis went to other nations TO TRADE, thank you for your input about the failed foray into mombasa and foreign ship building

If you had enough iq points you would've noticed I mentioned Aden and Somalis there. That's the type of response he was looking for
 
You never stop you cuqdad ridden old man :icon lol:

Read his question properly



He wants to know if Somalis went to other nations TO TRADE, thank you for your input about the failed foray into mombasa and foreign ship building

If you had enough iq points you would've noticed I mentioned Aden and Somalis there. That's the type of response he was looking for
It's difficult to point to an absence. Somalis traded in
Aden because they didn't have the ships to get any further, and that was mostly late.
Read up on Indian ocean trade and compare to the Wiki claims.
To respond positively you need a Somali source of ships, which I have not been able to find.
 

Helios

VIP
It's difficult to point to an absence. Somalis traded in
Aden because they didn't have the ships to get any further, and that was mostly late.
Read up on Indian ocean trade and compare to the Wiki claims.
To respond positively you need a Somali source of ships, which I have not been able to find.
Indian Ocean trade isn't my area of expertise but on Aden you're going to get schooled

Distance doesn't matter as much as the oceanography of what we're dealing with
1600388319083.png

1600388422742.png


Here Grant you can see the depth of the Gulf of Aden. The little boats you mentioned on the Swahili coast wouldn't fly here hence why Red Sea Somalis possessed these


Majeerteen dhows in Alula
1600388475670.png

1600388572378.png



Not hard to see how things haven't changed much

Somali bedens produced domestically
1600388719289.png


Opone is here and Alula is visible as "Caluula"
1600388782187.png


Let's go back to the chart
1600388848213.png


See how violent the currents are ? You'd need a ship like in the images I displayed in order for them to access the red sea.

I rest my case
:sass2:
 
Indian Ocean trade isn't my area of expertise but on Aden you're going to get schooled

Distance doesn't matter as much as the oceanography of what we're dealing with
View attachment 141583
View attachment 141584

Here Grant you can see the depth of the Gulf of Aden. The little boats you mentioned on the Swahili coast wouldn't fly here hence why Red Sea Somalis possessed these


Majeerteen dhows in Alula
View attachment 141585
View attachment 141586


Not hard to see how things haven't changed much

Somali bedens produced domestically
View attachment 141587

Opone is here and Alula is visible as "Caluula"
View attachment 141588

Let's go back to the chart
View attachment 141589

See how violent the currents are ? You'd need a ship like in the images I displayed in order for them to access the red sea.

I rest my case
:sass2:
So? Where were the ships built and when are you talking about? Omani ships in the 19th century don"t count.
Where besides Aden did they get?:drakekidding:
 
So? Where were the ships built and when are you talking about? Omani ships in the 19th century don"t count.
Where besides Aden did they get?:drakekidding:
Honestly it looks like you are trying hard to make a point against somalis.
I don't care who built the ships or if the design was taken from omanis, i was simply asking if somalia were into navigation before the 20th century. Helios answered my question.
Beden style ships are still built locally in many areas of somalia, I knew that somalis traded with Aden but I thought it was mainly arabs from aden coming to somalia rather than the other way around
 
It's difficult to point to an absence. Somalis traded in
Aden because they didn't have the ships to get any further, and that was mostly late.
Read up on Indian ocean trade and compare to the Wiki claims.
To respond positively you need a Somali source of ships, which I have not been able to find.
Basically my question was "did somalis use ships even for short distance travel" and the answer is clearly YES. You also admit that they had ships but not suitable for long distance travel, i never asked you if somalis had caravels or galeons I was simply wondering if somalis conducted trade outside of Somalia/Africa and the answer is again YES.
 
So? Where were the ships built and when are you talking about? Omani ships in the 19th century don"t count.
Where besides Aden did they get?:drakekidding:
The Last of the Lascars: Yemeni Muslims in Britain 1836-2012
Mohammed Siddique Seddon.
It says native east african vessels traded with yemen in 1840. I doubt that somalis started using ships exactly in 1840 so we could assume that seafaring was common at least from the 17th-18th centuries.
 

Attachments

Sydney R Welch, Portuguese Rule and Spanish Crown in South Africa 1581-1640, Cape Town and Johannesburg, 1950, pp 25-27:

The Mogadishu merchants sent about 20 "pangaios", small rudderless boats only capable of inshore travel, with Mir Ali Bey during the 1585 raid on Lamu. They were essentially useless since there was no fighting and the experiment was not repeated during the unsuccessful raid on Mombassa in 1589, which ended the Ottomans in the Indian Ocean.

The "pangaios" were probably lighters from the port of Mogadishu.
-----------------------------------------------
The Bajunis and other Swahili peoples used "mtepe" boats, similar to the Omani beden.

Swahili boats:

The design of the dhows, of a later date, originate in Oman.

Omani ships

Historical Overview: Continuity and Change in the Indian Ocean
Does not mention Somali ships or sailors.



Has anyone found evidence for non-Swahili shipbuilding in Somalia?
"The Aksumite technique whereby ships were made by binding with ropes, not by using nails, which is also mentioned by the Periplus as existing on the East African coast (Huntingford 1980: 29), lasted until recently in the Somali, Hadrami, and East African coastal regions, where such `sewn boats' were common. Procopius' information is a very good indication that when he speaks of Kaleb's fleet he was actually referring to Aksumite ships rather than others simply using Aksumite ports. It cannot be said what proportion of goods might have been shipped in Aksumite vessels, but as a trading nation with a maritime outlet of great importance, and later on an empire to administer overseas, it is certain that Aksum's merchant fleet or navy was a useful, even vital, part of the apparatus of commerce and government." [2, page 186

This indicates Somalis used this Abyssinian technique that dates back to the 1st century AD
 

Helios

VIP
So? Where were the ships built and when are you talking about? Omani ships in the 19th century don"t count.
Where besides Aden did they get?:drakekidding:
Bloody hell you're a persistent one. Even if the ships were built in Oman isn't that the point of trading?? To get what you don't have in exchange for what the Omanis would need. No shame in acquiring sophisticated goods :icon lol:

A precolonial reference of Somalis in the suqs of Muscat and Muttrah Oman
1600422695157.png


Muscat
1600422729704.png


As @Som said you've exposed yourself now as seeking to insult us unprovoked. Before you had a mask of correcting revisionism, but there wasn't any here on the thread
 
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Bloody hell you're a persistent one. Even if the ships were built in Oman isn't that the point of trading?? To get what you don't have in exchange for what the Omanis would need. No shame in acquiring sophisticated goods :icon lol:

A precolonial reference of Somalis in the suqs of Muscat and Muttrah Oman
View attachment 141620

Muscat
View attachment 141621

As @Som said you've exposed yourself now as seeking to insult us unprovoked. Before you had a mask of correcting revisionism, but there wasn't any here on the thread
Exactly.
This guy asked about non-swahili built boats in somalia as if swahilis didn't also got the design from arab omanis. Swahilis boats also resemble omani ships but he calles them "swahili" but when it comes to somalis all the credit goes to omanis.
All civilizations benefit from learning stuff from other people.
Honestly on this site we have to extremes, the crazy nationalist saying everything in the world was built by somalis and the crazy anti-somali people who say that somalis played no role in history until independence.
These are two sides of the same coin.
 

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