Men in India burning their underwear at HYPOTHETICAL Marital Rape Laws

[Angelina]

Are you assuming I don't know that? Yes but even if you talk about a point of fiqh where there is a difference of opinion between the madahib... none of the madahib are relativistic. they all take the position that their view is the correct view and properly represents the shariah.

Genuine question, How could they when they’re reading the same Hadiths and coming up with different conclusions?

They’re using deduction because the things that are clear in the deen are all agreed upon but the things that aren’t clear cut has iktilaf. Hence it isn’t black and white.

I respect the madahib. I don't believe in la madhabiyyah, I think it's a menace and we need to refer back to the four madahib.

4 madhabs? We had more madhabs. These are the ones that survived. We Muslims had more.

The madahib when they are correct are simply transmitting from people such as the sahabah. There's no contradiction between the shariah and following a madhhab (as long as following the madhhab isn't taken to an extreme).

No, that’s the things, if it was clear cut why do they come up with different conclusions?

To learn about this issue, we could go learn about what the madahib have said about it. But that's just a means of looking into the shariah. The madahib helped preserve the various rulings.

 

[Mudug_gyal]

there is literally a part of there holy book that has krishna or smth face fucking a fire god bird and busting in his mouth

… Anyways thank Allah for the blessing of Islam. Islam allows women to kill their rapist because its self defense. Its the only religion that actually gave women justice and rights. All those religions are backwards and then they want to lecture us.

 

[Omar del Sur]

@Angelina is your argument that because there are differences of opinion between and within the madahib that therefore we can add things into the shariah that weren't there 1,400 years ago?

I am not saying that's your argument. But maybe you could elaborate how I misunderstand your argument.

Marriage is not like Bitcoin or credit cards. Marriage is not a new thing and it existed during the time of Imam Shafi'i and Imam Malik. So if I go check what is in the kitab ul nikah section of a Maliki fiqh book- they might refer back to Imam Malik or his Muwatta.

But if we're dealing with something like Bitcoin- they didn't have Bitcoin during Imam Malik's day so we can't go investigate what he said about Bitcoin.

But marriage is not like Bitcoin. With Bitcoin, we would need to refer to a modern scholar. But marriage is not like Bitcoin. Male and female... it's the same as it was in the days of the sahabah and of the four imams.

edit: btw when i wrote this i hadn't seen ur latest post

 

[Angelina]

… Anyways thank Allah for the blessing of Islam. Islam allows women to kill their rapist because its self defense. Its the only religion that actually gave women justice and rights. All those religions are backwards and then they want to lecture us.

Yes but marital R-word isn’t recognized by a lot of scholars. It’s seen as sexual abuse and if a woman is abused by her husband she can take him to court.

 

[Angelina]

@Angelina is your argument that because there are differences of opinion between and within the madahib that therefore we can add things into the shariah that weren't there 1,400 years ago?

I am not saying that's your argument. But maybe you could elaborate how I misunderstand your argument.

Marriage is not like Bitcoin or credit cards. Marriage is not a new thing and it existed during the time of Imam Shafi'i and Imam Malik. So if I go check what is in the kitab ul nikah section of a Maliki fiqh book- they might refer back to Imam Malik or his Muwatta.

But if we're dealing with something like Bitcoin- they didn't have Bitcoin during Imam Malik's day so we can't go investigate what he said about Bitcoin.

But marriage is not like Bitcoin. With Bitcoin, we would need to refer to a modern scholar. But marriage is not like Bitcoin. Male and female... it's the same as it was in the days of the sahabah and of the four imams.

It’s not about adding since the issues we are mentioning aren’t clear cut in the sharia. Where does it say that marital r is allowed or not allowed? It’s up to scholarly deduction, hence where did you get I’m talking about adding?

also do you believe that the doors of ijtihad by modern scholars are closed? Are you saying modern scholars can’t have different opinions to Imam Malik for example? You do know that Ibn Taymiyah was persecuted for having certain different opinions to the 4 madhabs at times?

 

[Daydreamer]

@Angelina @Omar del Sur
thing is, it's haram to emotionally and physically abuse your wife and rape usally consists of both of those so its gotta be haram, i just dont know what the punishment would be

 

[Omar del Sur]

No, that’s the things, if it was clear cut why do they come up with different conclusions?

you asked me a question and I'll get to it later insha'Allah.

but I'm kind of tired and I just want to reply to this for the moment.

it could be that they reached different conclusions because for example maybe a particular hadith didn't reach one of the four imams. or maybe the imam thought a particular hadith is weak.

there's a lot of things where this is ijma between all four madahib. and there's issues where there's a difference of opinion.

but if none of the four madahib know of any hadd punishment for marital rape or anything like that.... it can't just be added. the fact that there are differences like Malikis praying sadl during salaah... this doesn't mean we can just add or subtract whatever we want into/from the shariah

 

[Angelina]

@Angelina @Omar del Sur
thing is, it's haram to emotionally and physically abuse your wife and rape usally consists of both of those so its gotta be haram, i just dont know what the punishment would be

That’s the issue I’m trying to get @Omar del Sur to understand

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[Wonyluvr]

That’s just scary

 

[Angelina]

you asked me a question and I'll get to it later insha'Allah.

but I'm kind of tired and I just want to reply to this for the moment.

it could be that they reached different conclusions because for example maybe a particular hadith didn't reach one of the four imams. or maybe the imam thought a particular hadith is weak.

there's a lot of things where this is ijma between all four madahib. and there's issues where there's a difference of opinion.

but if none of the four madahib know of any hadd punishment for marital rape or anything like that.... it can't just be added. the fact that there are differences like Malikis praying sadl during salaah... this doesn't mean we can just add or subtract whatever we want into/from the shariah

Why are we limiting ourselves to the 4 madhabs when historically we had more madhabs? Were does it say in the Quraan that the views of the 4 madhabs have to followed 100% ?

also you do know that throughout history view points throughout the 4 madhabs have changed? In Shafi madhab it was believed that a father could marry His illegitimate daughter. You’d be hard pressed to find a shafi that believes this? No modern Shafi believes this and they removed it.

Smoking was also allowed in the 4 madhabs. You won’t find that belief amongst modern Muslims now. They’ve removed this.

Can you not see what I’m talking about? Things that are agreed upon cannot he added or changed but we are not talking about that.

 

[Homerlilian]

there is literally a part of there holy book that has krishna or smth face fucking a fire god bird and busting in his mouth

Drop pic

 

[Omar del Sur]

@Angelina @Omar del Sur
thing is, it's haram to emotionally and physically abuse your wife and rape usally consists of both of those so its gotta be haram, i just dont know what the punishment would be

I mean.... I think... like this.... if some guy just pressures his wife emotionally... and she's reluctant... but that's it, he just pressures her emotionally... I don't like it but I wouldn't consider it rape. but if for example... if he straight up assaults... he's physically forcing her, there's bruises... ok.. that... I definitely think that's haraam.

so... if someone says the first case is marital rape... I think that's too much, I don't agree with calling that rape... but the second one definitely yes.... and obviously I think is wrong....

but I think the wife needs to look into a divorce or come up with some solution. is it haram to abuse your wife- definitely. but I don't think the court room should be involved as I don't think that's within the shariah.

I think @Angelina that you are trying to say there is something unclear or something. but I don't know of any difference of opinion. I know Imam Nawawi is considered a reference in Shafi'i fiqh. did he say anything about legal punishment for this as in a hadd punishment or anything like that? what about the big scholars from the Maliki, Hanafi and Hanbali schools? if there's a difference of opinion, ok, whoever wants can go and research the difference of opinion and see what side has the best evidence.... but I don't think there's any difference of opinion here. I don't think taking a husband to court for marital rape is something that exists within say the first 700 years of Islam.

@Angelina have you turned on the idea itself of following the salaf? you don't need to follow some specific modern scholar imo or anything like that but... have you thrown out the concept of following the salaf? if something didn't exist within the shariah with regards to marriage for the first 700 years... you're okay with introducing new rules that didn't exist during that period? Marriage is not like the internet or bitcoin. this is not some new thing that didn't exist during the lives of the four imams.

 

[Omar del Sur]

That’s the issue I’m trying to get @Omar del Sur to understand

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no I get that abusing your wife is haraam. but- is there a hadd punishment? is there a procedure through which a man is convicted in court of marital rape and there is some sort of penalty within the shariah?

I think Sheikh Assim al Hakeem talked about this and I think he had the same view as myself. Yes, abusing your wife is haraam... but I don't think there's anything within the shariah where a man would be convicted of marital rape and receive, say, 50 lashes or something. I think the wife should just look into a divorce.

 

[Omar del Sur]

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I'm not disputing that abusing your wife is haraam, nowhere have I disputed that. You cited the Hanafis. Ok- is there any of the four madahib where you can look into their classical fiqh books and find a section talking about hadd punishment for marital rapists or something like that?

 

[Omar del Sur]

@Angelina I challenge you and anyone who would take up this challenge... to bring me a fiqh book from the first 700 years of Islam that talks about a shari punishment for "marital rape"- specifically marital rape. That a man can be brought to court, convicted on "marital rape" and that there is a specific shari punishment for the aforementioned charge.

I am not saying it isn't haraam. Abusing your wife is definitely haraam. But I'm talking about whether there is a legislated shari punishment for a man convicted on marital rape.

 

[Omar del Sur]

ok, I double-checked... Sheikh Assim al Hakeem has the same stance... abusing your wife is definitely haraam... but as far as shari punishment like lashes or something like that, that is not within the shariah and irrespective of what anyone says we can't just add stuff into the shariah.

 

[Mudug_gyal]

ok, I double-checked... Sheikh Assim al Hakeem has the same stance... abusing your wife is definitely haraam... but as far as shari punishment like lashes or something like that, that is not within the shariah and irrespective of what anyone says we can't just add stuff into the shariah.

View attachment 324714

Islamic scholars update their fatwas often. There was a recent fatwa in saudi arabia saying women can go out without mahram even attend umrah alone brazy! Apparently because its safer to travel as a woman plus the transportation being short and convinient. People back in the day had to do a whole journey and they used to get lost killed looted raped and stuff

 

[𐒁𐒚𐒒𐒂𐒘𐒂𐒗 𐒎𐒚𐒗𐒗𐒒]

The only reason there is no fatwa against marital rape, is because women aren't respected, that's all there is to it. But guess what? Allah loves us, and I KNOW these rapists will burn in hell, and I hope their enablers, apologists etc, go down with them.

 

[𐒁𐒚𐒒𐒂𐒘𐒂𐒗 𐒎𐒚𐒗𐒗𐒒]

@Angelina @Omar del Sur
thing is, it's haram to emotionally and physically abuse your wife and rape usally consists of both of those so its gotta be haram, i just dont know what the punishment would be

These so-called Muslim countries have no laws to punish marital rape, because they don't view women as human beings worthy of protection. They genuinely believe that women belong to men, and that a man can do what he pleases to a woman's body.

They're not even ashamed, that non-Muslim countries are far ahead of them, when it comes to women's rights.

 

[Daydreamer]

Drop picView attachment 324713

lost the original scripture but there are plenty of crazier shit that i got

Vishnu​

Vishnu is said to have raped Tulsi/Vrinda by assuming the guise of her husband. What can be more disgusting than a god raping a chaste lady? And much worse is the celebration of this rape as a festival. Yes you read that right. Hindus proudly celebrate the rape of Vrinda by Vishnu in a festival called Tulsi Vivah.

Shiva Purana, Rudra Samhita 2, Yudha Khanda 5, Ch 23.38-45 ”On seeing her husband, Vrnda too was delighted. She forgot her sorrow. She considered everything a dream. Delighted in the heart and with all the dormant passions kindled up, she sported with him for many days in the middle of that forest. Once at the end of the sexual intercourse she realised that it was Visnu. Vrnda rebuked him angrily and spoke thus. Vrnda said:—Fie on this misdeed of Visnu in outraging the modesty of another man’s wife. I have now realised you as the wielder of illusion, appearing in the guise of an ascetic. Sanatkumara said:—O Vyasa, saying thus in great anger she showed her brilliant powers as a staunch chaste lady by cursing Visnu. “O base foe of the Daityas, defiler of other people’s virtue, O wicked one, take this curse from me, greater in force than all persons. The two persons whom you made to appear in front of me shall become Raksasas and abduct your wife. You will be distressed on account of separation from your wife roaming about with Sesa ‘lord of snakes’ who posed as your disciple here. You will seek the help of monkeys in the forest.”

Indra​

If you think that such an act can’t be done by a person like Indra, then you are absolutely wrong. Indra was very popular among gods and sages for ravishing others’ wives and had done this to Ahalya by assuming the form of her husband Sage Gautama:

Skanda Purana V.iii.136.2-16 ”There was a Brahmana named Gautama who was like another Brahma. He was endowed with truthfulness and piety. He was engrossed in the Vanaprastha stage of life. His blessed wife named Ahalya was very famous in all the three worlds as a woman endowed with beauty and prime of youth. Satakratu [Indra], the king of Devas, was infatuated by the exceptional beauty of Ahalya. The Slayer of Bala, therefore, tempted her. ”O beautiful lady of uncensored features, resort to me, the king of Devas, Sport about with me. You shall be one honoured in all the three worlds. What will you do with this Brahmana who has become lean and emaciated due to his over-zealousness for purity and conventional rites and austerities and Vedic studies! O lady of beautiful eyes, you must be rather undergoing sufferings now.”…Getting an opportunity, he assumed the excellent guise of the sage and carnally delighted Ahalya who believed (that he was Gautama) in the inner apartment. Within a moment thereafter, O descendant of Bharata, the excellent sage hurriedly entered the apartment. On seeing Gautama come Purandara [Indra] became terrified and he went out. Seeing him he thought (knew) that it was Sakra. So Gautama became highly enraged and he cursed Devendra: ”Since you could not control your senses, be one with a thousand vaginal apertures.” On being cursed thus, Devendra was instantly covered with a thousand vaginal apertures.”

Shiva​

Srimad Bhagavatam 8.12.26-30 ”The beautiful woman was already naked, and when She saw Lord Siva coming toward Her, She became extremely bashful. Thus She kept smiling, but She hid Herself among the trees and did not stand in one place. His senses being agitated, Lord Siva, victimized by lusty desires, began to follow her, just as a lusty elephant follows a she-elephant. After following her with great speed, Lord Siva caught her by the braid of her hair and dragged her near him. Although she was unwilling, he embraced her with his arms. Being embraced by Lord Siva like a female elephant embraced by a male, the woman, whose hair was scattered, swirled like a snake. O King, this woman, who had large, high hips, was a woman of yogamaya presented by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. She released Herself somehow or other from the fond embrace of Lord Siva’s arms and ran away.”

Soma​

Srimad Bhagavatam 9.14.4 ”After conquering the three worlds [the upper, middle and lower planetary systems], Soma, the moon-god, performed a great sacrifice known as the Rājasūya-yajña. Because he was very much puffed up, he forcibly kidnapped Bṛhaspati’s wife, whose name was Tara”.

Brihaspati​

Brihaspati the Guru of all Gods raped his own pregnant sister-in-law named Mamata. A man with what kind of heart would do that,

Matsya Purana 49.17-28 ”Suta said:- Brihaspati, whilst staying on Earth, one day saw the wife of his brother, Usija, who was big with child, and addressed her thus:- ”Dress thyself well and let us enjoy.” She, being thus addressed, replied to Brihaspati thus:- ”The embryo in my womb is mature and is already reciting the Vedas. Thy seed will also not be fruitless and thy proposal is sinful.” Hearing which, Brihaspati said:- ”I need not to be taught morality by thee, O sweet one.” After saying that, he carried out his desire by force…”

Varuna​

Varuna is the god of water. He is praised in several hymns of the Vedas. A story mentioned in the Mahabharata tells Varuna’s rape of Bhadra another wife of Utathya,

Mahabharata 13.154.10-17”…’Hear now, O king, the story of Utathya who was born in the race of Angiras. The daughter of Soma, named Bhadra, came to be regarded as unrivalled in beauty. Her sire Soma regarded Utathya to be the fittest of husbands for her…the handsome Varuna had, from a long time before, coveted the girl. Coming to the woods where Utathya dwelt, Varuna stole away the girl when she had plunged into the Yamuna for a bath. Abducting her thus, the Lord of the waters took her to his own abode…There, within that palace, the Lord of waters; O king, sported with the damsel. A little while after, the fact of the ravishment of his wife was reported to Utathya…”

Surya​

Surya is the Sun-God and several hymns of Vedas are dedicated to him. He raped the virgin Kunti. Kunti was just examining her mystic power and the sun god appeared before her and was smitten with passion after seeing young and beautiful Kunti and then raped her.

Devi Bhagavatam 2.6.13-35”…Surya Deva said: – “O Kunti! What for you called me, by virtue of the Mantra? Calling me, why do you not worship me, standing before you? O beautiful blue one! Seeing you, I have become passionate; so come to me. By means of the mantra, you have made me your subservient so take me for intercourse.” Hearing this, Kunti said: – “O Witness of all! O knower of Dharma! You know that I am a virgin girl. O Suvrata! I bow down to you; I am a family daughter; so do not speak ill to me.” Surya then said :– “If I go away in vain, I will be an object of great shame, and, no doubt, will be laughed amongst the gods; So, O Kunti! If you do not satisfy me, I will immediately curse you and the Brahmin who has given you this mantra. O Beautiful one! If you satisfy me, your virginity will remain; nobody will come to know and there will be born a son to you, exactly like me.” Thus saying Surya Deva enjoyed the bashful Kunti, with her mind attracted towards him; He granted her the desired boons and went away. The beautiful Kunti became pregnant and began to remain in a house, under great secrecy. Only the dear nurse knew that; her mother or any other person was quite unaware of the fact. In time, a very beautiful son like the second Sun and Kartikeya, decked with a lovely Kavacha coat of mail and two ear-rings, was born there.” Tr. Swami Vijnananda

Ashwinkumara​

Ashvinkumara was the son of the Sun God. He is said to have raped a Brahmin lady and impregnated her.

Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Brahma Kanda, 10.125-134 Saunaka was astonished at the words of Sauti and said, ‘Sir, what irony of fate led Aswinkumara, the offspring of the sun, to copulate with a Brahmin woman? Kindly narrate this incident and gratify my curiosity” Santi, the best of saints replied,”O best of Munis, impossible are the ways of Providence. Once upon a time, this tranquil, strong offspring of the sun was enamored of a Brahmin woman while she was going out on pilgrimage. Though he was dissuaded by her again and again he forcibly took her to a grove, ravished and impregnated her. The lady, bewildered with shame and fear caused her own miscarriage…”

Brahma​

Brahma the creator is said to have raped his own daughter Saraswati.

Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Krishna Janma Khanda 35.8-20 “…Then he came and bowed to me; and having secured Saraswati, the enchantress of the three worlds, as his bride Brahma dallied with her in several places in solitude. After a good deal of diversion, he desisted from his amours and came back to Brahma-loka…Then they performed auspicious rites, greeted Brahman and the goddess Bharati, gladly ushered them in into the land of Brahma. Brahma sported with her day and night and was absorbed in sexual enjoyments…”

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