Some verses in the Quran say that hell is eternal. Ibn Taymiyyah's student Ibn Qayyim said it is not. He was one of the first to argue that eventually punishment would cease because an infinite punishment for a finite number of crimes is not just, and Allah, the most merciful and compassionate, is not capable of injustice. Scholars over the ages have interpreted the meaning of hell in different ways. Sheikh Shabir Ally joins the list of theologians who say that hell is a metaphor, not a literal place:
What Is Hell Like?
- Thread starter Bidaar Wanagsan
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Shaabir has been debating Rabbi's for to long, since they often claim Hell and Heaven are metaphors
Rabbis don't believe in heaven and hell. Judaism has many competing theories about the afterlife which are not settled. The earliest view, the one in the Old Testament, says everybody goes to She'ol, an underground place for the dead, whether Jewish or not. Later, during Second Temple Judaism, new sects came up with the idea of rewards and punishments. Some claimed punishment was temporary like Ibn Qayyim would later do, so if anyone's copying Jews, it's the student of Ibn Taymiyyah. Other sects argued that the afterlife is a mystery that cannot be known. It's still a matter of contention and debate.
Shaabir has been debating Rabbi's for to long, since they often claim Hell and Heaven are metaphors
The sheikh lays out the evidence in the vid.
"They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him." Surah 9:31
It amazes me that you have taken knowledge and blind followed this scholar who is indirectly saying God is both a liar and exaggerator, I always thought secularists were more intelligent beings. I've got a few questions for you, where did this scholar derive this knowledge from; his whims and desires or Quran and Sunnah? If hell is just a metaphorical term, what is the determent of evil deeds i.e. rape and murder? Can God's name as Most Just be valid since current evil beings and those in the past will go unpunished for their sins and be in the same position as their victims? And lastly do you believe in Paradise or is that just another metaphorical thing that motivates people to do good?
"But as for those who defiantly disobeyed, their refuge is the Fire. Every time they wish to emerge from it, they will be returned to it while it is said to them, "Taste the punishment of the Fire which you used to deny." Surah 32:20
@Boqor
You're an intelligent man. Use that brain of yours. Is there no way to punish a criminal except by fire? When was the last time you saw a rapist being burned at the stake? What does auto da fe have to do with criminal justice?
I will give you some arguments from the Quran, Sunnah, and Islamic scholarship that support the sheikh.
Bear this in mind though: The Quran makes it clear that some verses are metaphorical. It says for instance "hold on to the rope of Allah". There is no rope to grab on to. That's a metaphor. It says the unbelievers are "deaf, dumb, and blind". They're not literally deaf and blind. That's a metaphor. It says that "Allah is closer to you than a jugular vein". If you take that literally it means that Allah is inside your body. He isn't. The Quran is filled with metaphors and allegories. I could go on and on. Even the most basic and central elements of theology are draped in metaphor. For instance Allah is called a "He". In everyday language, the male pronoun "he" refers to a man with a penis, but Allah is not a man, and he does not have a penis. It's a metaphor. It's just how Arabs speak.
Firstly, the Quran says that Christians, Jews, and Sabeans will go to Paradise.
Secondly, the prophet said a prostitute who fed a cat went to Paradise even though she was spreading fitna and fasaad across the earth.
Thirdly, another hadith says a man who killed 99 people went to Jannah after repenting of his ways. Most non-Muslims don't even kill a single person, but you believe the Most Merciful and Compassionate is gonna torture them forever?
Fourthly, a hadith says that Allah's mercy always triumphs over his anger.
Fifthly, every sura of the Quran except suratul Tawbah begins with "Allah is the most merciful and the most compassionate". There's a reason for that. Mercy is the most central element of Allah's character and the one most emphatically stressed again and again. Not his wrath, but his mercy.
Sixthly, it is unjust to punish somebody eternally for sins that were not eternal. Infinite punishment for a finite number of sins cannot be defended morally. Proportionality is a key requirement of justice. A just magistrate would not send a shoplifter to thirty years imprisonment for stealing a candybar. That would be disproportionate and excessive, so why would Allah do something which even human beings can see is wrong.
All of these arguments, when taken together as a whole, bear out the scholars who argue that hell is not a literal place, but a state of mind.
There are verses in the Quran that show hell is metaphorical. Give me a while to dig them out.
You're an intelligent man. Use that brain of yours. Is there no way to punish a criminal except by fire? When was the last time you saw a rapist being burned at the stake? What does auto da fe have to do with criminal justice?
I will give you some arguments from the Quran, Sunnah, and Islamic scholarship that support the sheikh.
Bear this in mind though: The Quran makes it clear that some verses are metaphorical. It says for instance "hold on to the rope of Allah". There is no rope to grab on to. That's a metaphor. It says the unbelievers are "deaf, dumb, and blind". They're not literally deaf and blind. That's a metaphor. It says that "Allah is closer to you than a jugular vein". If you take that literally it means that Allah is inside your body. He isn't. The Quran is filled with metaphors and allegories. I could go on and on. Even the most basic and central elements of theology are draped in metaphor. For instance Allah is called a "He". In everyday language, the male pronoun "he" refers to a man with a penis, but Allah is not a man, and he does not have a penis. It's a metaphor. It's just how Arabs speak.
Firstly, the Quran says that Christians, Jews, and Sabeans will go to Paradise.
Secondly, the prophet said a prostitute who fed a cat went to Paradise even though she was spreading fitna and fasaad across the earth.
Thirdly, another hadith says a man who killed 99 people went to Jannah after repenting of his ways. Most non-Muslims don't even kill a single person, but you believe the Most Merciful and Compassionate is gonna torture them forever?
Fourthly, a hadith says that Allah's mercy always triumphs over his anger.
Fifthly, every sura of the Quran except suratul Tawbah begins with "Allah is the most merciful and the most compassionate". There's a reason for that. Mercy is the most central element of Allah's character and the one most emphatically stressed again and again. Not his wrath, but his mercy.
Sixthly, it is unjust to punish somebody eternally for sins that were not eternal. Infinite punishment for a finite number of sins cannot be defended morally. Proportionality is a key requirement of justice. A just magistrate would not send a shoplifter to thirty years imprisonment for stealing a candybar. That would be disproportionate and excessive, so why would Allah do something which even human beings can see is wrong.
All of these arguments, when taken together as a whole, bear out the scholars who argue that hell is not a literal place, but a state of mind.
There are verses in the Quran that show hell is metaphorical. Give me a while to dig them out.
I shall reply back to all 6 points you stated to the best of my knowledge insha'Allah,
1. Yes I agree however there are 2 important conditions: 1)They have Tawheed and do not enjoin partners with their Lord, 2) That the prophethood of |Rasool'Allah pbuh was not complete. As you can see from the latter point this ayah can no longer be valid in todays time as the Prophethood of Muhammad ibn Abdallah pbuh and the religion of Islam is complete refer to Surah 5:3 and 3:85.
2. Although not known, the prostitute would have been a woman with Tawheed, thus an extremely sinful Muslim that was forgiven off all her major sins due to this act of kindness.
3. The man who killed 99 repented this proves he believed in God and repented to God so like the last point was a man with Tawheed and so he wouldn't have been in hell-fire forever.
4. For Muslims yes.
5. I agree, His Mercy is seen in everyday life for example there are people who go out of their way to insult Him and they are still provided with sustenance and a good life.
6. This is your own logical limited human reasoning, you cannot attribute our thought patterns to Allah azza wajjal. This like me saying "why would Allah allow a murder suspect to win his court case, that's not right". Remember your knowledge and wisdom compared to Allah is like a drop in an ocean.
Habibi, your arguments are full of holes so big through which you could fly a plane.
The hadith does not say the prostitute had tawheed. That's a Wahabbi invention. It doesn't even say she believed in God. We know nothing about her religious beliefs. It says only that she was a prostitute and a single act of kindness to an animal wiped away her life of sin. Non-Muslims are kind to animals too. In fact more so than Muslims who think dogs are impure because they keep them as pets. They have vets and charities devoted exclusively to animal welfare. Allah will treat them just like he treated that prossie.
The ayah about Christians, Jews and Sabeans also says nothing about Tawheed. In fact, the Quran is clear about the shirk nature of Christianity because it rebukes Christians for saying things like Jesus is the Son of God and God has a mother, and it rebukes Jews for saying that Ezra is the son of God. These were not people of Tawheed. Which is why Allah's admission of them into jannah disproves the idea that only Muslims go to heaven. The sheikh has shown that jannah is open to all people so long as they lead moral and upright lives.
The hadeeth about Allah's mercy superseding his wrath says nothing about it being limited to Muslims. You're making distinctions that are not in the text.
Limited logical reasoning? You keep putting logic down. Logical reasoning is the only way we can even have this debate. What else are we supposed to use to determine truth from falsehood? The Quran appeals us to use logic and reason, so it is not contrary to Islam to use our minds. Otherwise we'd just follow whatever irrational idea that was presented. Your example of a murderer getting off Scott free is flawed because he will be held accountable by Allah. Justice will be done eventually. But there's no justice in eternal punishment. That's not punishment at all. That's torture and sadism, and Allah subxanah wa ta'aala is not a sadist. All crimes, whether against God or man, end. They're not eternal. They don't go on forever. It is right to punish crime, but the punishment cannot go on forever. It must be proportionate. Even in Shariah, Allah teaches us the need for proportionality. The penalty for stealing a candybar is not the same as the penalty for stealing a car. One is amputation, the other is not. The punishment must fit the crime. It cannot exceed it. But even the one to be amputated cannot be executed. That would be unjust because his crime is not great enough for capital punishment.
And you have not addressed my point that the Quran is full of metaphors, even in the most important and central details about the nature of God. For example, you keep talking about Tawheed, but if you approach the nature of Allah in the same literal way that you approach hell, you would not believe in tawheed at all because Allah refers to himself numerously as "We". If you were consistent, you'd be a mushrik, because in common speech "We" means multiple gods. But we know that when the Quran is taken as a whole, instead of isolated verses, that Allah is one. You pick and choose when you want to be literal and when you don't.
Over to you.
@Boqor
Also, the man who killed 99 people did not atone for his crimes. He died on the way to pilgrimage where a monk sent him. He did not reach the place of pilgrimage. So Allah sent an Angel to measure the distance he covered and admitted him to heaven based on how much ground he covered. All this proves that if a mass murderer who killed scholars like this fella did (he killed a monk who told him Allah would not forgive him) can escape hell, then everybody else who is not a mass murderer, which is 99% of humanity, will also escape hell because there's no way that kind and honest people who've never killed even a single person will be tortured by Allah for doing much, much, less than this serial killer.
If you think repentant serial killers are morally superior to non-Muslim aid workers, for instance, who according to you are going to hell if they die without converting, then it is meaningless to talk about morality because this is just arbitrary punishment with no justice behind it whatsoever. Gandhi was a better man than a genocidal tyrant like Saddam Hussein, but you're telling me that the pacifist is going to hell but the tyrant is going to heaven just because he said "Sorry Allah, I didn't mean to be a naughty boy"? That's what you're saying. You can kill and kill and kill, but so long as you say "I'm sorry", Allah will say " No worries pal, here, take this hur al-ayn why don't you and show her a good time", whereas the non-Muslim aid worker who's devoted his life to feeding the poor and curing the sick will be tortured forever for not saying the right words? That's no justice saxib. That's some man made story which contradicts the mercy and compassion of Allah, the most high God.
Also, the man who killed 99 people did not atone for his crimes. He died on the way to pilgrimage where a monk sent him. He did not reach the place of pilgrimage. So Allah sent an Angel to measure the distance he covered and admitted him to heaven based on how much ground he covered. All this proves that if a mass murderer who killed scholars like this fella did (he killed a monk who told him Allah would not forgive him) can escape hell, then everybody else who is not a mass murderer, which is 99% of humanity, will also escape hell because there's no way that kind and honest people who've never killed even a single person will be tortured by Allah for doing much, much, less than this serial killer.
If you think repentant serial killers are morally superior to non-Muslim aid workers, for instance, who according to you are going to hell if they die without converting, then it is meaningless to talk about morality because this is just arbitrary punishment with no justice behind it whatsoever. Gandhi was a better man than a genocidal tyrant like Saddam Hussein, but you're telling me that the pacifist is going to hell but the tyrant is going to heaven just because he said "Sorry Allah, I didn't mean to be a naughty boy"? That's what you're saying. You can kill and kill and kill, but so long as you say "I'm sorry", Allah will say " No worries pal, here, take this hur al-ayn why don't you and show her a good time", whereas the non-Muslim aid worker who's devoted his life to feeding the poor and curing the sick will be tortured forever for not saying the right words? That's no justice saxib. That's some man made story which contradicts the mercy and compassion of Allah, the most high God.
Okay saxib lets go into depth now, starting of with the case of the prostitute, lets look at the full hadith as written in sahih Bukhari :
Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated: The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: While a dog was going around a well and was about to die of thirst, a Bani Israel prostitute saw it and took off her shoe and watered it. So Allah forgave her because of that good deed.
As you can see the prostitute was from "Bani Israel", the most rightly guided tribe at the time, from this we can derive she was a Muslim prostitute, this makes sense I would not be surprised if a Muslim prostitute in this day and age was forgiven by Allah azza wajjal as his Mercy encompasses all things, however the same cannot be said for non-Muslims, if God is truly most Just then non-Muslims cannot get the same treatment as those who enjoin good,forbid evil, sacrifice time to pray, supplicate to and praise their Lord,limit their luxuries in this world, resist their desires etc ... " Is the reward for good anything but good?" Surah Ar-Rahman Verse 60 ... on the basis that they treat animals with compassion.
Now onto the next point, the ayah which I think you are referring to is as follows “Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” Surah Baqarah Verse 62. If you look at the context of this ayah and the ones that follow or the ones before it, you will know Allah swt is talking about previous nations and how many individuals in previous nations became rebellious towards Allah and in this specific ayah He is clearing the names of those who actually did believe. If we take it that this verse means good Christians and Jews in all time periods then the Quran becomes a book of contradictions as Allah says in many verses that Christians and Jews who don't submit to Islam and follow the prophet saw will be punished for example... "Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures." Surah Al-Bayyinah Verse 6 and " And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." Surah Al-Imran Verse 85.
Regarding the hadith about the wrath and mercy of Allah you are right it is not limited to Muslims, non-Muslims do recieve the mercy of Allah but only in this dunya so that they may reflect and submit to their Lord.
Yes, limited logical reasoning, reflect on the story of Musa and Khidr in Surah Kahf, some of the things that happen seem alarming to our human mind because of our lack of wisdom. I agree that the Quran appeals to us to use logic but the fundamentals of our Deen are established and well-rooted, we do not require a 21st century scholar to question the existence of hell and paradise. Also sometimes using too much logical reasoning can cause you to apostate because you are using a limited brain to understand a near enough unlimited thing, an example of this is the heretic Mu'tazili sect who left the fold of Islam because off too much deep thinking into the decree of God.
That's a straw-man argument now, we both know or at least I hope that We in the Quran is a poor but best translation of the original Arabic word used in the Quran. Also I don't like to delve into the topic of the appearance or characteristics of God because to me it is non-beneficial knowledge.
The non-Muslim aid workers deeds are in vain, they were not done for the sake of Allah therefore why should Allah reward him for such? In my opinion Gandhi was a hindu cow worshipper and Saddam a tyrannical taghut so I don't think either of them will be having a good time with hoor al-ayn lol, but Allah knows best. And yes a mass murderer with Tawheed is better than charity Bob or Mike with no Tawheed; like one of my favourite scholars once said to have Tawheed and many bad deeds is much better than no Tawheed and many good deeds.
Also @Bidaar Wanagsan remember Punishment and Reward in afterlife is a pillar of Imaan, lose that pillar and you essentially nullify your Islam.
@Boqor,
I accept the prostitute was from Bani Israel, but that only proves my point. The Quran says numerously that Bani Israel committed shirk every time Musa left them. They worshipped a golden calf after they were guided. They d after other gods even when Allah sent them miracles. They were ahlul shirk. Also, how on earth can a prostitute be praying and fasting? Now you're embellishing the story. The whole point of the hadith is to say: Look how merciful Allah is, even the lowliest and most degraded thing, a prostitute, which is the thing you could be in Arab society, is forgiven.
I agree that Christians and Jews who hear and are convinced by the Quran have to follow it, but those who do not, or only hear a twisted image of Islam from the media which is how most encounter Islam, are included in ahlul jannah by that verse so long as they are good people. That's the literal meaning of the verse. Post your other ayahs if you want, but they don't contradict my ayah. It does not say past generations at all.
Debate about hell is not new. Classical scholars had similar arguments. The sheikh mentions Ibn Qayyim. I see you've been misled about the Mu'tazilah. They were rational, scientific, and intelligent Muslims who combined reason and revelation. But today the Wahabbis have thrown reason out if the window and approach things literally. Well, sometimes anyway, because they interpret metaphorically when it suits them like the many verses I mentioned.
Here's why you've misinterpreted the hadith about the mass murderer who went to heaven. I don't even know how you would atone for killing a person, let alone 99 people. You cannot atone for that. I would kill such a person on the spot. I don't care how sorry he is. Even the death penalty is not enough for him because you can only kill him once whereas he's killed almost a hundred people. The only punishment that would come close to justice is for him to be tortured for a hundred years. If anybody deserved hell for his sins, it was this serial killer because no earthly punishment is enough, and yet in spite of that, in spite of how much he deserved torture, and how much pain he's caused, and how much greater his sins were to ordinary mortals who cannot even match his brutal record, Allah did not torture him.
This proves at the very least that hell is not a place for people who've sinned less than him, which is 99% of people.
It's a metaphor just like the sheikh said, otherwise you're calling Allah a monster of injustice for pardoning serial killers whilst punishing nonviolent unbelievers. Subxanallah, what an unjust accusation.
Seriously, would you accept that a judge who let a mass murderer go for killing 99 people but sentenced nonviolent criminals to torture chambers was a just and fair judge, or would there be a riot? In fact, it's worse than that. Because you're saying the judge not only pardoned the killer, but awarded him billions of dollars of compensation just like Allah awarded the killer jannah which is greater than a billion dollars. It makes no moral sense to punish anyone if you won't punish the greatest criminals. If you won't punish monsters, it is unjust to punish small fry. Hell is unjust, and so cannot be literal.
I accept the prostitute was from Bani Israel, but that only proves my point. The Quran says numerously that Bani Israel committed shirk every time Musa left them. They worshipped a golden calf after they were guided. They d after other gods even when Allah sent them miracles. They were ahlul shirk. Also, how on earth can a prostitute be praying and fasting? Now you're embellishing the story. The whole point of the hadith is to say: Look how merciful Allah is, even the lowliest and most degraded thing, a prostitute, which is the thing you could be in Arab society, is forgiven.
I agree that Christians and Jews who hear and are convinced by the Quran have to follow it, but those who do not, or only hear a twisted image of Islam from the media which is how most encounter Islam, are included in ahlul jannah by that verse so long as they are good people. That's the literal meaning of the verse. Post your other ayahs if you want, but they don't contradict my ayah. It does not say past generations at all.
Debate about hell is not new. Classical scholars had similar arguments. The sheikh mentions Ibn Qayyim. I see you've been misled about the Mu'tazilah. They were rational, scientific, and intelligent Muslims who combined reason and revelation. But today the Wahabbis have thrown reason out if the window and approach things literally. Well, sometimes anyway, because they interpret metaphorically when it suits them like the many verses I mentioned.
Here's why you've misinterpreted the hadith about the mass murderer who went to heaven. I don't even know how you would atone for killing a person, let alone 99 people. You cannot atone for that. I would kill such a person on the spot. I don't care how sorry he is. Even the death penalty is not enough for him because you can only kill him once whereas he's killed almost a hundred people. The only punishment that would come close to justice is for him to be tortured for a hundred years. If anybody deserved hell for his sins, it was this serial killer because no earthly punishment is enough, and yet in spite of that, in spite of how much he deserved torture, and how much pain he's caused, and how much greater his sins were to ordinary mortals who cannot even match his brutal record, Allah did not torture him.
This proves at the very least that hell is not a place for people who've sinned less than him, which is 99% of people.
It's a metaphor just like the sheikh said, otherwise you're calling Allah a monster of injustice for pardoning serial killers whilst punishing nonviolent unbelievers. Subxanallah, what an unjust accusation.
Seriously, would you accept that a judge who let a mass murderer go for killing 99 people but sentenced nonviolent criminals to torture chambers was a just and fair judge, or would there be a riot? In fact, it's worse than that. Because you're saying the judge not only pardoned the killer, but awarded him billions of dollars of compensation just like Allah awarded the killer jannah which is greater than a billion dollars. It makes no moral sense to punish anyone if you won't punish the greatest criminals. If you won't punish monsters, it is unjust to punish small fry. Hell is unjust, and so cannot be literal.
TekNiKo
Loyal To The One True Caliph (Hafidahullah)
Hell exists otherwise the Quran wouldn'tgo into detail about the Tree of Zaqquum the Prophet even visited it during Isra wal Miraaj. He even saw the guardian of hell Malik who never smiled once in his life. Is Malik metaphorical too?
Ridiculous
Ridiculous
@Boqor
The Arabic word for "we" is "naxnu". It's not a poor translation. It's an exact translation. And yet you don't interpret naxnu to mean there are multiple gods.
Gandhi was a cow worshipper? You would be a cow worshipper too if you were born in India. He was a moral giant who worked towards bridging the sectarian divide between Muslims and Hindus. He saved many lives and was executed by Hindu fanatics. You wrong him by your insult. Allah will reward him for his good works.
On aid workers, it is actually better to help people without expecting a reward than to help them just because you want the material benefits of jannah. For example, if I gave you money because I wanted to get something out of it - let's say I wanted to impress somebody else who would give me some money later too, that would not be as good as if I helped without expecting to benefit from my help. That's the true mark of altruism. Expecting to benefit is not altruism at all. It's just an investment which I will will recoup. Allah wants you to help out of sincerity, not because you want 72 virgins.
The Arabic word for "we" is "naxnu". It's not a poor translation. It's an exact translation. And yet you don't interpret naxnu to mean there are multiple gods.
Gandhi was a cow worshipper? You would be a cow worshipper too if you were born in India. He was a moral giant who worked towards bridging the sectarian divide between Muslims and Hindus. He saved many lives and was executed by Hindu fanatics. You wrong him by your insult. Allah will reward him for his good works.
On aid workers, it is actually better to help people without expecting a reward than to help them just because you want the material benefits of jannah. For example, if I gave you money because I wanted to get something out of it - let's say I wanted to impress somebody else who would give me some money later too, that would not be as good as if I helped without expecting to benefit from my help. That's the true mark of altruism. Expecting to benefit is not altruism at all. It's just an investment which I will will recoup. Allah wants you to help out of sincerity, not because you want 72 virgins.
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