if you read my post you would see i said "neolithic" which is before egypt/sudan were even established civilisations, fucking idiot.
Was Hetshepsut really Horner?
- Thread starter Qeelbax
- Start date
Xoxoxo
VIP
Egypt doesn’t consist of 1 ethnic group and neither was ancient Egypt. Different people ruled Egypt at certain times and different ethnic groups were a majority the whole time.
You're right when it comes to certian methodologies, such as metric analyses, where Somalis legit look more caucasoid than some Europeans depending on the analysis(less prognathic, thinner noses etc...) but a metric analysis where a large amount of measurements are taken and are put through a comparative analysis where the measurements are analysed in conjuction to each other, then it can be relatively accurate. You can find some cranial studies where they practically take all measurements from the nose, studies like this are obviously not gonna paint an accurate picture and would only tell you information about nose structure, but there are studies that take measurements all over the skull and compare them between groups, metric traits can be influenced by enviroment so they aren't 100% reliable but its extremely rare for 2 populations to evolve a multitude of the same physical traits to cause the degree of clustering you see between Horners and Early Upper Egyptians/Lower Nubians.
Or you can just look at non-metric studies, which analyse features that are barely influenced by enviroment, and are regarded as great indications of genetic connections depending on how robust the analysis is. Early Upper Egyptians still show appreciable affinities to Horners.
Xoxoxo
VIP
You’re irrelevant to me so I didn’t even read your shit you dimwit of a twink
Clllam
Æ
Who knows... Present day egyptians sure don’t resemble their ancient predecessors. I do believe they look like some Saidis.
and Hatshepsut did have relations with Somalia. ‘Opone’ Or Xafuun was the Seat of the long lost (most probably destroyed by Allah) bronze age Land of Punt. There’s extensive evidence that Somalis were a civilised people and Nomads played a crucial role in connecting the interior with the Port Cities (and Metropolises). Punt disintegrated into the various city states later on.
and Hatshepsut did have relations with Somalia. ‘Opone’ Or Xafuun was the Seat of the long lost (most probably destroyed by Allah) bronze age Land of Punt. There’s extensive evidence that Somalis were a civilised people and Nomads played a crucial role in connecting the interior with the Port Cities (and Metropolises). Punt disintegrated into the various city states later on.
The Somali race/ethnic/people group as we know it is no more than 2000 years old, this is nowhere near ancient egypt, there is no people group or culture alive today that is ancient egypt, your question about locality is relevant only to the nation state, not to the people ruling it, its a well established fact Somalis are/were nomads, do you think Somalia always belonged to us ? lmao we conqured that shit place coming from an even shittier place, and we made it ours. But these grand ideas of PUNT and ANCIENT EGYPT are for the dreamers.
We are Muslim Nomads with a history of about 1000 years, and a ethnic group of 2000 years max.
We should claim our language, our genes and the land we conqured, not history of some half naked ancients.
We are Muslim Nomads with a history of about 1000 years, and a ethnic group of 2000 years max.
We should claim our language, our genes and the land we conqured, not history of some half naked ancients.
Europeans can't pronounce 'b' now, nah doubt it.
I’m mj too. And having a healthy livestock and lands considered you’re rich during the ancient times.
What you missed is that modern upper egyptians already show such affinity with horners and predynastic egyptians :
"In the 1972 paper, "On the Craniological Study of Egyptians in various periods" by M.F Gaballah et al, with reference to the works of both Batrawi 1946 and Sidney Smith 1926, it is said that the available series of modern Egyptian skulls conform more closely with the Southern phenotype that characterized the predynastic and early dynastic cultures of Upper Egypt such as the Naqada."
1. Your source says nothing about modern "upper" Egyptians, just Egyptians in general, either way, there isn't a massive difference between the 2 regions.
2. Batrawi's methodology in that study was the "Coefficient of Racial Likeness", which has been proven to be completely bogus.
3. The southern phenotype that you're talking about doesn't even exist in Egypt anymore outside of Bejas, this has been noted since the early 1900s that the pre dynastic Upper Egyptian type mixed with the northern type, which over time produced modern Egyptians, the closest thing to the southern phenotype in Egypt today isn't found amongst the people along the nile, this is shit thats been established for over 100 years in biological anthropology. Many old kingdom Northerners have been shown to be differentiated from Pre dynastic southerners, how tf wouldn't this be the case for modern Egyptians when we know for a fact that Northerners kept settling in the south over time?
I've been told by some academics in the know that I'm in contact with that Old Kingdom samples basically look ancient "North-African" with very little if any Iran-Chalcolithic type ancestry but also very little SSA (proto-Nilotic). I take this to mean they probably looked like some population on a continuum between Iberomaurusians and Natufians. So there would probably be a fair amount of "SSA" type ancestry in them but just the "Ancestral North African" kind that makes Iberomaurusians cluster like pseudo-Horners and is found all over the prehistoric Middle East like in Neolithic Anatolians to some degree (10%, I hear). But all in all I'd be surprised if any Ancient Egyptians outside of Upper Egyptians from areas bordering Lower Nubia like Aswan and Luxor were anything more than 10-20% "SSA" in total. I really can't wait to see these Old Kingdom samples, though. The way they're described... they may prove an excellent proxy for Horners' non-Arabian MENA side.
Copt-like folks seem to start appearing during the Middle Kingdom when these academics say you start seeing a fair amount of "BedouinB" type ancestry (better represented by Jordan-Early-Bronze-Age samples) setting in which probably marks large scale influxes of Semites like the Hyksos intermixing with the previous Egyptians.
Also, I really wouldn't make too much of how Masris looked in those murals. I get the sense that Ancient Egyptians were propagandists and exaggerated physical types to differentiate political groups:
Besides, we have depictions like this from some of the earliest dynasties:
Look incredibly like modern Egyptians, to be honest.
But anyway, we're not unrelated to Ancient Egyptians. Like half of our prehistoric ancestry seems to come from prehistoric Egypt, we're Afro-Asiatic speakers like them and seem to share many historical customs and cultural features with them such as even the unfortunate practice of FGM and our early Cushitic speaking ancestors also seem to have had some early trade contact with them, not to mention the last 2000-3,000 years of extensive trade contact. For whatever it's also worth, our Cushitic cousins the Beja/North-Cushites have been rolling with these guys for a long, long time doing anything from serving as an early elite force in the Egyptian military (Medjay) to at some point even having a Beja/Blemmye King apparently ruling over Luxor and seeming to be the predominant force in Lower Nubia:
Geeljires should satisfy themselves at that and not indulge in Hotepism.
Copt-like folks seem to start appearing during the Middle Kingdom when these academics say you start seeing a fair amount of "BedouinB" type ancestry (better represented by Jordan-Early-Bronze-Age samples) setting in which probably marks large scale influxes of Semites like the Hyksos intermixing with the previous Egyptians.
Also, I really wouldn't make too much of how Masris looked in those murals. I get the sense that Ancient Egyptians were propagandists and exaggerated physical types to differentiate political groups:
Yes, everyone notices this about Syrians. To be fair, most are in reality dark-haired, dark-eyed and olive-skinned but they do indeed have a higher incidence of lighter features, even when looking at Alawites. People used to like claiming it's due to "Crusaders" but, in reality, it is due to a genetic shift in the direction of Anatolia and Iranics like Kurds found among them and the Lebanese.
Funnily enough, you know who else noticed this? Ancient Egyptians:
I swear... Masris were doing race based propaganda long before anyone. For example, most Nubians would have most assuredly been 40-60% ancient MENA people like Horners and yet, according to ancient Masris, a huge portion of them were essentially just Dinkaoids in the same Leopard skin loinclothes we see them in today:
And the ridiculously stark distinction they make between themselves and Levantines like the Hyksos when we know the two populations, especially this late into Egypt, would have been extremely similar genetically:
They had a remarkable talent for exaggerating physical differences between populations, most likely for political purposes.
Besides, we have depictions like this from some of the earliest dynasties:
Circa 2613–2494 BCE
Circa 2600-2400 BCE
Look incredibly like modern Egyptians, to be honest.
But anyway, we're not unrelated to Ancient Egyptians. Like half of our prehistoric ancestry seems to come from prehistoric Egypt, we're Afro-Asiatic speakers like them and seem to share many historical customs and cultural features with them such as even the unfortunate practice of FGM and our early Cushitic speaking ancestors also seem to have had some early trade contact with them, not to mention the last 2000-3,000 years of extensive trade contact. For whatever it's also worth, our Cushitic cousins the Beja/North-Cushites have been rolling with these guys for a long, long time doing anything from serving as an early elite force in the Egyptian military (Medjay) to at some point even having a Beja/Blemmye King apparently ruling over Luxor and seeming to be the predominant force in Lower Nubia:
I'll give that a read but I've seen some compelling evidence that the early Kermans were Cushites or AAs based on signs of loans and substrata in various Eastern Sudanic languages. Or that at least Nubia was mixed back then with Lower Nubia (Medjay and C-Group) being Cushites and Upper Nubia being Eastern Sudanic. There is also the later X-Group which most tie to the Blemmyes (Beja). I get the impression Nubia was always an Eastern Sudanic-Cushitic mix with more of an Eastern Sudanic slant particularly in Upper Nubia.
Ancient Bejas (Blemmyes) were very prominent in Lower Nubia and Upper Egypt, by the way. There was even apparently a Blemmye King over Luxor (Egyptian Thebes) once:
(PDF) The Diplomatic Career and Historical Work of Olympiodorus of Thebes
PDF | On Dec 1, 2010, Warren Treadgold published The Diplomatic Career and Historical Work of Olympiodorus of Thebes | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGatewww.researchgate.net
They also had their own prominent cities in Lower Nubia like Kalabsha and Faras:
Geeljires should satisfy themselves at that and not indulge in Hotepism.
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These are some other models from Ancient Egypt
First pic is Hatshepsut expedition, wallahi tell me these arent pure Africans lol, they look exactly like Beja or Afar
Would have to look into the exact history of these models but you know there were actually lots of ancient Bejas in the Egyptian military? The Medjay originally seem to have started out from Bejas. The nomadic Beja tribes living along parts like the Red Sea hills must've seemed fine warriors compared to predecessors of Masri Fellahin and got pretty coveted as soldiers.
Anyway, we'll see but I feel like folks like yourself are gonna be pretty disappointed over the years as more and more ancient DNA rolls out, even after we address any alleged biases against more "Nubian" looking remains and sample all of Upper Egypt.
Nilotic
VIP
Shimbiris
When you say that you expect Old Kingdom samples to be "on a continuum between Iberomaurusians and Natufians"... what percentage do you expect to see in these constituent parts?
Are we for example looking at 60% Natufian and 40% Iberomaurusian? Or do we expect certain Old Kingdom Egyptians to be predominantly Iberomaurusian with others being predominantly Natufian?
When you say that you expect Old Kingdom samples to be "on a continuum between Iberomaurusians and Natufians"... what percentage do you expect to see in these constituent parts?
Are we for example looking at 60% Natufian and 40% Iberomaurusian? Or do we expect certain Old Kingdom Egyptians to be predominantly Iberomaurusian with others being predominantly Natufian?
No idea what the numbers will look like until we see them. Hard to figure.
Old kingdom DNA won't be around for a while, next best thing is Pastoral Neolithic DNA, ofc you have to take into account the extra SSA so you'll have to look at the components proportionally, but it can give you an idea on what to expect, it won't be mostly Iberomaurusian.
Another We Wuz thread, subhanallah 
Nilotic
VIP
Interesting. So what component do you think will feature more prominently?
Natufian-like.
I said in another thread I think paleolithic/mesolithic Egyptians will be modelled as Natufian related + Taforalt related with some Mota/Hadza related ancestry. I think most of this ancestry is native to North Africa and the "Natufian" and "Taforalt" related ancestry isn't real, there just the best samples currently available, I think it represents something common to both populations which is Basal Eurasian + Mota + Paleolithic West Eurasian, 3 ancestries found in the Natufians and Taforalt, Paleolithic Egyptians will carry these 3 ancestries and i think it will make up close to the entirety of their ancestry.
So when people say Natufian/Taforalt don't take it literally, they were not sources of ancestries to Egypt, better sampling will prove this.
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