T-M184 Discussion

[Apollo]

I would personally say the Y16897 mutation probably happened up north in S/Western Asia rather that Yemen or Eastern Arabia? It is quite old, and we share it with Europeans as well, so a neolithic dispersal from the Levant/Anatolia would be my first guess.
As to Y44591, I'd say Arabia.

I think that the T-Y28685 group are Ashkenazi Jews (not truly Euros, recent migrations), while the other European ones probably come from Neolithic Anatolians.

 

[Arabsiyawi]

I think that the T-Y28685 group are Ashkenazi Jews (not truly Euros, recent migrations), while the other European ones probably come from Neolithic Anatolians.

Yeah haha I completely forgot the about the jews

 

[Prince Abubu]

I would personally say the Y16897 mutation probably happened up north in S/Western Asia rather that Yemen or Eastern Arabia? It is quite old, and we share it with Europeans as well, so a neolithic dispersal from the Levant/Anatolia would be my first guess.
As to Y44591, I'd say Arabia.

Cool. So if I have this correctly: Y16897 originated in North Mesopotamia/Anatolia 8400 ybp, then split up in multiple directions, one of which was to go south to the Arabian peninsula. In Arabia, it mutated into Y44591 7000 ybp. Then it migrated into North Somalia to father the Somali T-carriers 2900 ybp?

 

[Arabsiyawi]

Cool. So if I have this correctly: Y16897 originated in North Mesopotamia/Anatolia 8400 ybp, then split up in multiple directions, one of which was to go south to the Arabian peninsula. In Arabia, it mutated into Y44591 7000 ybp. Then it migrated into North Somalia to father the Somali T-carriers 2900 ybp?

Sounds about right.
For the moment, we know its not "native" to the horn, and that it came through Arabia.
In sha' Allah we'll know more about it with upcoming results of other T somalis and other Y16897 individuals.

 

[Arabsiyawi]

Does anybody know about the alleged South Arabian inscriptions in Northern Somalia ? Are there any excavation currently done near archeological sites there too ?

I'm thinking about how we can try to correlate few events/artefacts, early christian tombs, cross signs as well as these inscriptions to the arrival of T ? But I'm doubting a lot.

I thought that T could've also entered Aksum first, and then end up in Northern Somalia when Aksum ruled over the lands we inhabit today. But there are no Ethiopian T that match our Y16897.
The lack of Yemeni Y45591 is kinda intriguing tbh. All the Middle Eastern lineages in Ethiopia today (E-M123, J1) are present in Yemen, yet T-Y45591 has no Yemeni samples listed anywhere on Bill Gates' internet. I've tried to look at every single FTDNA project with Arabs in it and the only ones from that branch I could see were from the Gulf.

Really can't wait for the day we can discover everything about that mystery.

 

[Cuneo]

Does anybody know about the alleged South Arabian inscriptions in Northern Somalia ? Are there any excavation currently done near archeological sites there too ?

I'm thinking about how we can try to correlate few events/artefacts, early christian tombs, cross signs as well as these inscriptions to the arrival of T ? But I'm doubting a lot.

I thought that T could've also entered Aksum first, and then end up in Northern Somalia when Aksum ruled over the lands we inhabit today. But there are no Ethiopian T that match our Y16897.
The lack of Yemeni Y45591 is kinda intriguing tbh. All the Middle Eastern lineages in Ethiopia today (E-M123, J1) are present in Yemen, yet T-Y45591 has no Yemeni samples listed anywhere on Bill Gates' internet. I've tried to look at every single FTDNA project with Arabs in it and the only ones from that branch I could see were from the Gulf.

Really can't wait for the day we can discover everything about that mystery.

Sabean and Himyarite inscriptions in Somaliland are found in Hargeisa district, Burao district, Karin (east Sahil), Shal’aw (West Sanaag), Shumux Shumux (West Sanaag). It’s mainly gravestones and stelaes. So far no excavations have taken place and some of the sites in south Hargeisa have been destroyed.

The Christian graves and settlements are concentrated in the central parts of Somaliland.

There are Yemeni Y16897 and with more testing we’ll see Yemeni Y45591. It’s not that far fetched.

In a historical context, when the Sabean civilization disintegrated after the collapse of the Ma’rib dam, there was a dispersal of people from that area. Somali T carriers could be descendants of these Sabeans or they could be the descendants of a lost civilization like ‘Ad (Iram) and Thamud. The latter theory was established by Esteban, the Spanish geneticist and HG-T connoisseur.

 

[IftiinOfLife]

How do we know the Arab carriers of this Haplogroup don't have recent African Ancestry, which is genetically more probable then all of you being Arab/Sabean/Atlantan/Babylonian lol.




There were many African kingdoms on the Arabian peninsula, those Arabs with the T Marker might be their bastards kids, but you are all quick to call a bastard daddy

Talk about Semitization of the mind.

 

[Cuneo]

How do we know the Arab carriers of this Haplogroup don't have recent African Ancestry, which is genetically more probable then all of you being Arab/Sabean/Atlantan/Babylonian lol.




There were many African kingdoms on the Arabian peninsula, those Arabs with the T Marker might be their bastards kids, but you are all quick to call a bastard daddy

Talk about Semitization of the mind.

The subclade that Somali T carriers belong to (Y44591) arrived quite recently to the Horn unlike the older T subclades found among Cushitic groups like the Beja and Saho.

So the probability of your theory is slim.

 

[IftiinOfLife]

The subclade that Somali T carriers belong to (Y44591) arrived quite recently to the Horn unlike the older T subclades found among Cushitic groups like the Beja and Saho.

So the probability of your theory is slim.

Lets analyze the data, drop the sources!

 

[Cuneo]

Lets analyze the data, drop the sources!

You made that crazy statement so the burden of proof is on you.

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

Does anybody know about the alleged South Arabian inscriptions in Northern Somalia ? Are there any excavation currently done near archeological sites there too ?

I'm thinking about how we can try to correlate few events/artefacts, early christian tombs, cross signs as well as these inscriptions to the arrival of T ? But I'm doubting a lot.

I thought that T could've also entered Aksum first, and then end up in Northern Somalia when Aksum ruled over the lands we inhabit today. But there are no Ethiopian T that match our Y16897.
The lack of Yemeni Y45591 is kinda intriguing tbh. All the Middle Eastern lineages in Ethiopia today (E-M123, J1) are present in Yemen, yet T-Y45591 has no Yemeni samples listed anywhere on Bill Gates' internet. I've tried to look at every single FTDNA project with Arabs in it and the only ones from that branch I could see were from the Gulf.

Really can't wait for the day we can discover everything about that mystery.

Yeah, they exist.

This photo was taken in Sanaag around 2007.

 

[Cuneo]

Yeah, they exist.

View attachment 90042

This photo was taken in Sanaag around 2007.

That’s one of the Sabean gravestones in Shal’aw, a small coastal town in west Sanaag.

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

That’s one of the Sabean gravestones in Shal’aw, a small coastal town in west Sanaag.

What I'm confused about is what ever happened to writing in Sabean?

 

[Cuneo]

What I'm confused about is what ever happened to writing in Sabean?

I think Arabic replaced it after 6th century AD. It was most likely in decline at the time it was replaced. Only two languages remain of the Old South Arabian branch, spoken by remote communities in the Yemeni mountains in the north.

 

[Prince Abubu]

Does anybody know about the alleged South Arabian inscriptions in Northern Somalia ? Are there any excavation currently done near archeological sites there too ?

I'm thinking about how we can try to correlate few events/artefacts, early christian tombs, cross signs as well as these inscriptions to the arrival of T ? But I'm doubting a lot.

I thought that T could've also entered Aksum first, and then end up in Northern Somalia when Aksum ruled over the lands we inhabit today. But there are no Ethiopian T that match our Y16897.
The lack of Yemeni Y45591 is kinda intriguing tbh. All the Middle Eastern lineages in Ethiopia today (E-M123, J1) are present in Yemen, yet T-Y45591 has no Yemeni samples listed anywhere on Bill Gates' internet. I've tried to look at every single FTDNA project with Arabs in it and the only ones from that branch I could see were from the Gulf.

Really can't wait for the day we can discover everything about that mystery.

Yeah, it's why I'm slightly sceptical about the Semitic hypothesis, at least South Semitic anyway. Maybe, the T-haplo ancestor was a North/Central semite?

Another thing, is that so far all the Somali T-carriers belong to just one subclade. That means we all descendants of just one or a handful of male relatives. That seems a bit odd for a migrating group of Semites, that they all belong to one patrilineal tribe.

But anyway, it's an interesting mystery and I hope we have answers soon.

 

[Arabsiyawi]

How do we know the Arab carriers of this Haplogroup don't have recent African Ancestry, which is genetically more probable then all of you being Arab/Sabean/Atlantan/Babylonian lol.




There were many African kingdoms on the Arabian peninsula, those Arabs with the T Marker might be their bastards kids, but you are all quick to call a bastard daddy

Talk about Semitization of the mind.

Did you actually read the thread ?

If all these Arabs had recent East African ancestry we’d share the exact same clade as them. But unlike the E-V32 Saudi guy, no khaleeji shares it with us. TMRCAs are indicators of such admixtures

 

[Advokaten]

Can someone enlighten me more on what a haplogroup is? The difference between ytdna and mtdna and what autosomal ancestry is? And which of these should determine ones ancestry most correctly?

 

[Apollo]

Can someone enlighten me more on what a haplogroup is? The difference between ytdna and mtdna and what autosomal ancestry is? And which of these should determine ones ancestry most correctly?

Go to wikipedia, google, or youtube. Plenty of tutorials explaining what they are. It is pretty easy to understand. The gist of it: it is basically the Somali 'abtiris' system but more technical and going all the way to before prehistory. As for which one determines your ancestry the most, it is by far autosomal. But Mito and Y are also interesting and useful data points.

 

[Advokaten]

So basically if a Marry a Swedish girl and we receive offspring who only mix with other swedes for thousands of years my descendents will have my haplogroup but will be autosomally swedish?

 

[Apollo]

So basically if a Marry a Swedish girl and we receive offspring who only mix with other swedes for thousands of years my descendents will have my haplogroup but will be autosomally swedish?

Correct.

But in reality this rarely happens, usually it comes with some autosomal admixture into a population.

There are some native Northwest Europeans who got (relatively) recent African lineages from the Roman Empire period, but they are extremely rare (like less than 0.5%).