Muslim Twitter debates the existence of 'male hoors'
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I’m not even Muslim but this subject is hilarious to me.
If women could marry more than one man in Jannah then the question of whether she will be married to her last husband or best/favourite husband wouldn't have been a whole discussion (and topic of disagreement) among Scholars (and iirc even among the companions, Allahu a'lam).
Allah created men and women and knows better than us what we want and what is best for us. Nobody will be getting the short end of the stick in Jannah, if you get there it was intended to be a reward for you.
Having a harem of men isn't the least bit appealing to 'most' women. This debate sounds more like a tit-for-tat, in response to men who bring up hoor al-'ayn to put women down.
Allah created men and women and knows better than us what we want and what is best for us. Nobody will be getting the short end of the stick in Jannah, if you get there it was intended to be a reward for you.
Having a harem of men isn't the least bit appealing to 'most' women. This debate sounds more like a tit-for-tat, in response to men who bring up hoor al-'ayn to put women down.
Men are given in Jannah what only woman are given in the Dunya. Hence that’s a moot point tbh. Things that are allowed for women only and not for men are allowed in Jannah for men. Hence your point now falls apart.
As for homosexuality and beastility, the fact that you need to scrap to the bottom of the barrel says it all. Homosexuality and beastility goes against the fitrah of Humans.
Women like men and men like women. It’s comparing apples and oranges. Hence why you’ll never ever convince anyone of your logic.
As for the haram and halal aspect. It’s haram
For you to wear gold, Haram for you to wear silk, Haram for you to drink wine, Haram for to sleep with unlimited amount of women. If men had one night stands every day in the dunya, you’d say such a man is cursed and disgusting. Unlimited sexual experiences and wine is allowed in heaven, so why are you basing everything on halal and haram of the dunya? Clearly that alone shows that the dunya isn’t the same as heaven and that heaven is a completely different realm?
Hence why I can’t take you seriously. Wine is a reprehensible vice, so is sleeping with 100s of women, yet that has been lifted hence how can you judge heaven based on worldly standards? It’s even more astonishing the fact that you tried to argue that women would still be clad in hijab and all the other female restrictions in a place in which believers can now drink and do most things that were haram in the dunya is incredible.
In order for you to compare murder, beastility and homosexuality to women liking more than one man, you’d have to argue that humans are inclined to the former like women are inclined to want men. That’s why I think your point is silly because we all know it isn’t the fitrah for the sane man or woman to want dogs, cats or the same gender. You can’t talk about basic human heterosexual attraction which is innate to things that are a by-product of mental health issues and abuse.
If you’re going to argue that a woman wanting more than one man is against the nature of women like beastility is, fair enough then that would be a start of a bit logic, but you’re also going to have to explain why women also have the propensity to find more than one man attractive.
I’m going to leave this for you which I find to be a great explanation for both sides:
It is not appropriate or befitting to the modesty and dignity of women, to speak of what there will be for them in Paradise, in a manner similar to what a man will have of al-hoor al-‘een. Undoubtedly the Arab character and modesty respects women too much to mention what they will have in that regard. It is sufficient to note that she will have of bliss in Paradise whatever her heart desires and will delight her eyes.
This is a good base. The scholar doesn’t compare it to homosexuality or any other extreme device, but noted the modesty of women and Allah respects women and doesn’t feel the need to be explicit in what women would get in the hereafter.
As for the women, Allah knows our psychology and what we will get. Heaven isn’t the same as the dunya isn’t a place governed by male whims and desire and what men think you will get and what you won’t get.
I too believe it’s a tit for tat and a male version of hoor isn’t something I’d be interested in but I wouldn’t have got involved if silly men weren’t comparing a woman wanting more men to homosexuality and beastility.
Also, how do we know that Allah hasn’t talked about women getting more due to haya reasons? Would woman want to hear about their own versions of male companions especially due to how such a thing would be embarrassing and very private for us? Female sexuality even with only one man is demonized, the idea of women even having a sex drive in history was demonized and mentioning such a thing goes against Arab culture and most cultures tbh.
It is not appropriate or befitting to the modesty and dignity of women, to speak of what there will be for them in Paradise, in a manner similar to what a man will have of al-hoor al-‘een. Undoubtedly the Arab character and modesty respects women too much to mention what they will have in that regard. It is sufficient to note that she will have of bliss in Paradise whatever her heart desires and will delight her eyes.
I don’t know how this view point works. Supposedly, what women will get isn’t mentioned due to modesty?
Also let’s forget Male hoors since I don’t even believe many women care for this nonsense, But once you open the Pandora’s box it’s evident that many men think women would be restricted in general. One chap tried to argue that women would be wearing hijab and Women in Jannah are under the same restrictions of needing a Mahram ect whilst it’s a free for all buffet of delights of activities that haram in dunya for men like drinking Wine, wearing silk and sleeping with as much women as possible. It’s this mentality why women play tit for tat and why this is something that weighs down on women. Women asking ‘ what about us?’ Isn’t a new question. Women with far more imaan and who are superior to us asked the same questions more than a thousand years before which goes to show us women do feel that many men make Jannah seem like it’s only for them.
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
1. As i stated previously there's an underlying reason why you're fixated on hijab & travel and seem to prioritise it to such an extent that it's the defining feature for women's freedom. Why is this, this is my question that you still haven't answered. I mean are gaalo women more free than muslim women because of not wearing hijab and free to travel as they please ? what about those muslim women who don't wear hijab and observe the limits pertaining to travel, are they more free than those muslim women who abide by hijab & travel limits ?
Instead of answering questions related to hijab & travel that you brought up , you went on a tangent and started discussing about things that i have not even mentioned or argued for. did i make the claim that men's freedom is based on sleeping with multiple women, drinking wine wearing gold ? no, you're the one who equated loosing your freedom due to men when it pertains to wearing hijab & travel .
In the same manner you asked me about whether rules of hijab for women will apply in jannah, i answer affirming it stating that this is the safe option. What do you do ? you go an ahead and start accusing me of saying there will be 0 restrictions for men, believing that Allah will not change the flaws of men in jannah, bypassing the quran etc. These are things that i have not even said once
This is a bad habit of yours where you project your bias to what i say, i suggest that you refrain from this and stick to what i actually say & argue for instead of imposing what you think or believe i said.
The crux of your arguments was that a lot of the restrictions put on women were due to men and as a counter to that i stated that islam commands and sets limits on men in how we must dress, interact, and carry ourselves around women. As an example i used the command to lower our gaze which equally to both genders & i asked why you singled out men for their lusts but not women ?
If women didn't have lusts, desires towards men you wouldn't be commanded to lower you gaze, now the question is how are men supposed to respond to lusts from women ? is to appease this lust or act in a modest manner setting limits on themselves in how they dress, talk, interact with women so as not to fall into haram ? don't some women due to their lusts harass men that they find attractive and will do anything to get them even ruin their marriages, relationships ? some even become vindictive when they're rejected and the best example of this is the story of Nabi Yusuf as.
Men and women are required to be modest in their interactions with each other so as to deter sinful acts provoked by their innate lusts and desires. Just because modesty requirements manifests in different ways to account for our differences in gender doesn't mean that one is worth less than the other. Allah created us and He knows what's best for us this is should be our ideological starting point in how we should proceed to meet the obligations required from us
The purpose for hijab like many other commands is an obedience to Allah SWT. It's done for Allah SWT same like all other acts of worship and this should be the guiding principle that muslims should have at the back of their minds. Having such a mindset ensures that even when one struggles with it, harassed because of it etc your conviction and sincerity still remains. This is a far better approach and framework than to simply view it as warding off men's lusts or limiting one's freedom.
AdoonkaAlle
Ragna qowl baa xira, dumarna meher baa xira.
Both doja & mudug girl are criticising me for arguing against homosexuality in jannah and their reasoning for doing so i quote is "i havent stepped into jannah to know what's permissible or not" since that's the case i then argue that bestiality and incest too should be ok after all nobody has been to jannah to conclude that it's haram.
Laakin they're digusted by this my question is why as they're the ones rationalizing haram vices on the basis of not having stepped into jannah. I am policing muslim women when it's about their desire to engage in homosexuality. What sort of depravity is this ?
Even worse is your complete and utter silence to what these girls are arguing & promoting despite you believing that homosexuality is unnatural and against fitrah of humans. Why are you ignoring this and only interested in confronting me ?
It's amazing the extent you're willing to go to and ignore reprehensible actions all on the basis of gender.
Excuse me, but why the f*ck are you still here? Your surface-level ideas have already been considered and rejected. Run along.
If a woman said that she felt limited by hijab and that it is the fitrah for women to beautify themselves, why would you then go on a tangent and try to argue with me about this? I never once said that the only freedoms of women is just hijab and travel, I used it as an example initually to see how restrictive you believe Jannah would be for women. I also find it astonishing that you ignored this hadith:
'In the authentic narration, Aisha had a group of women, who were passing by, who had beautified themselves excessively. When she passed by them she looked at them and said:
“Enjoy it in this world! For it is for you in this world, for us in the hereafter.”
Look at the conviction of a righteous woman! So for those sisters who are worry of them having to cover in this world, then reserve yourself in this dunya for you is beautiful existence in the hereafter.'
Why does Aisha say to women who don't wear hijab and beautify themselves to enjoy it in this world, but that the believing Muslim women will be able to enjoy it in the hereafter?
What does that tell you Adoonka? Why ignore this? This is what I mean when I say you fail to read and are coming from a place of being argumentative rather than actually listening.
I did answer it and I even showed you a Hadith as well which shows that lack of hijab in the dunya is seen as a form of enjoyment in the Dunya. Those that take heed of the prohibitions of Allah will be rewards in Jannah.
Did you read it? No, did you take it into account? No. Why? Because you’re an argumentative man who feels he always has to win. You’ll even lie and say I haven’t answered the question when I clearly did.
The thing is, YOU claimed that the things that are haram in the dunya will be haram in Akhira. The fact that wine, sleeping with multiple women and gold and silk for men won't be shatters your argument.
That's arrogance on your part. Most scholars say there is 0 evidence for hijab and even say that Jannah isn't a place of restrictions. I showed you evidence of this, but still you prevail with your line of questioning.
Hence, as Muslim women should we listen to YOU or scholars?
The bad habit is that you don't read to understand but read to argue. You have 0 evidence that hijab will be a requirement in Jannah and I even showed you a hadith in which Aisha R.A herself saw women beautifying themselves as them enjoying themselves in the Dunya.
The fitrah of women is to like looking beautiful ect which is why hijab is a struggle for some women. Not being able to accept this simple reality is that you have 0 clues of the fitrah of women but still you argue.
If a man said lowering ones gaze is a struggle and it's the fitrah of man to want to look at women, this would be seen as understandable comment, but the moment women talk about their fitrahs and what they would like in paradise it's an argument with your types. That is why i'll always see you as a sexist man and nothing else. It’s also why most women will never listen to your advise. You refuse to accept that women too have desires and when women voice it, you’ll ask many silly questions like ‘wHy dO yoU see hIjaB aS a ReStIction in JaNnaH’. You can’t even understand that wearing hijab for women is indeed a form of striving and women naturally want to showcase their beauty. It’s how Allah as built many of us and you still argue with us when it comes to this.
Because we have an Ayah in the Quran that literally tells the believing woman to wear hijab due to the harassment of men. Adoonka are you going to deny the Quran? I find it insane the lengths that one will go to argue. I never denied that we wear it for obedience. As Muslims we hear and obey. But that is also an added reason why we wear it. Even the Islamqa scholars said that hijab and niqab might not be necessary since men will be cleansed of looking ect:
‘In Paradise, there will be no evil looks or sickness of the heart such that a woman will be required to cover her face, and it is not the place for striving or commands or prohibitions, as ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Today is for striving with no reckoning and tomorrow is for reckoning with no striving.”
IslamQa literally makes the exact same point I did. In Jannah men will be cleansed from looking at women with evil looks hence covering isn’t a necessity. So why argue with you me?
Bingo.
That's the thing Jannah will be a place in which Allah will cleanse both men and women of looking at what isn't there spouse. Hence why do you think that hijab will still be needed? If actual scholars are saying there is no evidence of Hijab, who are you tell sisters they should be okay with it and that they will be wearing hijab?
Both men and women are expected to lower their gaze but women have to go the extra step since In Islam women are more of a fitnah for men and the Quran notes that it is men that harass women for their beauty rather than the other way around. This is what I mean when I say you'll go to great lengths to argue that It's to the point I need to remind you that men and women aren't the same.
The purpose of hijab is for obedience but another purpose clearly outlined in the Qurana and Sharia is to avoid men's lustful gaze and harrassment. The Quran literally says this. Do you deny the words of Allah now?
Adoonka, you’re not a woman nor do you know or even care for our wants and desires hence back off and know your place. It’s actually shameful at this point and going in the direction of gaslighting.
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At this point, I'll make a list of people to place on ignore for the new girls that join this forum, we need to start curating our experience on here. It just makes me sad, that some new girl, may stumble upon his words pertaining women, and confuse it for Islam.
I spoke to my mother about this debate and she just scoffed and said us women should stop listening to these kind of males, she said women will also get what they desire in the hereafter. She studied islam from normal teachers, not these sexist weirdos, oo hadal badan iyo indho' adayg isku darsaday.
I find it awfully feminine as a man to argue with women about why they’ll want xyz or why we think this or that. It’s like he wants us to be robots whose desires need to align with what he thinks we ought to like. It’s a form of gaslighting and he doesn’t see how it makes him look.
Take for example the travel and hijab debate. Any woman would tell you it’s our fitrah to want to beautify ourselves, that’s the way hijab can be a bit of a struggle if a girl wasn’t raised with it from young. Even when I presented him with this Hadith:
Aisha had a group of women, who were passing by, who had beautified themselves excessively. When she passed by them she looked at them and said:
“Enjoy it in this world! For it is for you in this world, for us in the hereafter.”
Look at the conviction of a righteous woman! So for those sisters who are worry of them having to cover in this world, then reserve yourself in this dunya for you is beautiful existence in the hereafter.
When Aisha R.A passed a group of women not wearing correct hijab who were beautifying themselves, what did she say? Enjoy it for we women who’ve strived with hijab and covering will be able to enjoy this in Jannah.
When I showed him a scholarly view that argues there is 0 proof for hijab in Jannah, he still argued. What does this man want? At this point I will just assume he wants to create fitnah in women’s hearts Authobillah.
Jannah is a place in which Music is allowed, Wine is allowed, silk and gold for men and all that is seen as haram in the Dunya, but this man wants to convince women that they’ll have to continue wearing their hijab, even when I showed him this view:
It does not seem that the women in Paradise will cover their faces, because Allaah will give them extraordinary beauty, and this beauty will be a reward for their obedience in this world.
In Paradise, there will be no evil looks or sickness of the heart such that a woman will be required to cover her face, and it is not the place for striving or commands or prohibitions, as ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Today is for striving with no reckoning and tomorrow is for reckoning with no striving.” Narrated by al-Bayhaqi in Shu’ab al-Eemaan (10614); narrated by al-Bukhaari in a mu’allaq report in Baab al-Aml wa Tooliha, in Kitaab al-Riqaaq.
Even the scholars notes that our beauty is a reward for striving in the dunya with hijab. Yet this chap can’t even understand such a basic concept and will still argue with us.
Wallahi I’m very disappointed with that poster and I doubt he truly understands the damage he is doing. I get his point of arguing that women will only get one spouse ect. But to go as far as questioning me about basic stuff like hijab in Jannah? Has this man lost his marbles?
@AdoonkaAlle
I’ll leave you with this Hadith that perfectly captures the essence of my point.
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The world is a prison for the believer and a paradise for the unbeliever.”
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2956
Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Muslim
The dunya is indeed a prison. Why? Due to the restrictions which are indeed a test and the believing Muslim will be rewarded for giving up things.
As for your silly argument:
Gaalo men and women and even those Muslims who don’t heed what Allah tells them to do indeed get more freedoms why? Because they treat the dunya like it’s a free for all heaven, but we Muslims know that when we give up the things our nafs might crave, we will get better in heaven.
I’ve now fully answered your question, those that don’t abide by Allah’s laws have given themselves a freedom in the Dunya that will tomorrow end up being their hell in the Akhira. I would have thought such a simple concept would be something you’d understand, but if you didn’t allow your sexism to cloud your mind, you’d have remembered this concept. But alas, I’ve reminded you of this so I hope you’ll show some humbleness and keep it moving.
I’ll leave you with this Hadith that perfectly captures the essence of my point.
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The world is a prison for the believer and a paradise for the unbeliever.”
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2956
Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Muslim
The dunya is indeed a prison. Why? Due to the restrictions which are indeed a test and the believing Muslim will be rewarded for giving up things.
As for your silly argument:
Gaalo men and women and even those Muslims who don’t heed what Allah tells them to do indeed get more freedoms why? Because they treat the dunya like it’s a free for all heaven, but we Muslims know that when we give up the things our nafs might crave, we will get better in heaven.
I’ve now fully answered your question, those that don’t abide by Allah’s laws have given themselves a freedom in the Dunya that will tomorrow end up being their hell in the Akhira. I would have thought such a simple concept would be something you’d understand, but if you didn’t allow your sexism to cloud your mind, you’d have remembered this concept. But alas, I’ve reminded you of this so I hope you’ll show some humbleness and keep it moving.
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But not all Muslim women have to wear hijab, according to classical scholars the awrah of a slave woman is between her navel and knee.
Does that mean that in Jannah, the Muslim slave woman doesn’t have to wear hijab, but the free women do?
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That will just fry his brain. He doesn’t even understand that in classical Islamic understanding hijab was to also differentiate between the free and enslaved women along with obviously obeying Allah.
Jannah isn’t a place in which there will be a distinction between the free vs not free and all the other worldly stratifications, hardships, prohibitions ect.
There is a reason why most scholars will say there is no evidence for hijab in Jannah and it isn’t something people entertain.
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I think there were certain scholars that held this view but I don't think this was a consensus or anything like that.
I don't necessarily know that what that answer says is correct. But I don't believe it was a unanimous or even necessarily a majority view amongst classical scholars that a slave woman's awrah is only from the navel to the knee.
That being said, according to the answer, this was the view of the Shafi'i madhhab.
"Some scholars hold that her 'awrah is only the area from the navel to the knees. This is the predominant view of the Maliki and Shafi'i madhabs."
Who differed? As far I know, other than Ibn Hazm and al-Albani, it is agreed upon.
Ibn Uthaymeen:
The nakedness (‘Awrah) of a slave woman is from her navel till knees, even if she is an adult and belongs to someone. If she offers her prayers while her body is covered only from navel till knees, and rest of her body is naked, still her prayer is valid while she covered that parts of body, which was needed to be covered in the prayer.
عورة الأمة وتفسير قوله تعالى ذلك أدنى أن يعرفن
تتناول هذه المقالة مسألة عورة الأمة في الإسلام، حيث يُعتبر جمهور العلماء أن عورتها ما بين السرة والركبة، بينما يرى الحنفية أنها كعورة الحرة أمام المحارم. تُبرز الآيات المتعلقة بالحجاب دور الجلباب في التمييز بين الحرة والأمة، لكن هذا لا يبرر التعرض للأمة بالأذى. يُستشهد بتصرفات الصحابة، مثل عمر...
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