Marital rape is real

[TekNiKo]

@TekNiKo
Imagine them bringing their husband to court for allegedly raping them. Its actually a mockery against real rape victims

I wonder what the judge reaction would be

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

I wonder what the judge reaction would be

Nah you would be going to jail bro

 

[IstarZ]

Your text is very general and yes Islam stresses kind treatment between the two partners. However I have good reason to dismiss this as rape for the following reasons.

1)even the liberal white countries did not classify this as rape until a few years ago, but sexual assault, because technically speaking a husband cannot rape his own wife. So just because white in the late 20th century and early 21th centry changed their law and recently classified it as rape, Somalis and Muslims have to follow ? This is colonialism at it's best. Whenever the whites change a world wide accepted code of law, why do have Xalimos have the feeling, they have to defend this as if this is a basic human right ?

2) It is an insult for real rape victims. Since a wife has already regularly sex with her husband and is just for a specific moment against it, the consequences are not even close to the women who get raped by strangers or people they never had and never wanted to have sex to begin with. You are making the act of rape very trivial. The wife will easily coexist with her husband after talking about this issue, whereas real rape victims are traumatised for their whole life.

Yup, I’m speaking in a general sense. Mutual respect between spouses is very important. If you have that respect you wouldn’t encroach on each other’s rights.

1. So it’s a problem of semantics for you? If it was called abuse or oppression you’d be okay with that?

Bear in mind that oppression is a major sin. When someone is forced to do something against their will there is harm caused, even if we do not perceive it.

Emotional coercion or this grandeur sense of male entitlement isn’t in harmony with the message of Islam.

Is it really wrong to defend a woman’s sexual agency within the confines of marriage?

2. I’d argue it’s far worse to be violated by your husband, the person that’s supposed to honor and protect you. Entering into a marital relationship implies consent but if at any point she becomes an unwilling participant and you physically force her then that’s a criminal act.

If a man has to force his wife to get ‘some’ there’s something seriously wrong with him.

 

[Ayubi]

I follow Ibn Kathir's intepretation

Where does Ibn Kathir say you can abuse your wife or hit her harshly? As I said earlier, Surah 4:34 is about light beating with a Miswak and that’s only the last option. It’s haram to beat your wife but let me quote scholars who I follow.

Classical jurist Imam al-Shafi’I states that although light beating was permissible as evidenced in Surah 4:34, but it is not compulsory (fard) nor a religious duty. He ends with the words it is better and preferable not touch your wife, rather the husband should use words or other means to sort things out as Prophet Muhammed (saw) did throughout his life he never raised his finger against any of his wives:

“…we choose what the Messenger of Allah chose himself, and we prefer that the husband does not beat his wife when she goes too far against him in her words and similar things…” (Kitab Al-Umm [Edited by Muhammed Zuhri al-Najjar. Cairo – Maktabat al-Kulliyyat al-Ashariyya, 1381/1961], by Imam Al-Shafi’I, volume 5, page 194)

The great classical Quranic commentator, Imam Jalal al-Din as-Suyuti (1445 – 1505 AD) states in regard to 4:34:

“If strife ensues between a man and wife, HE SHOULD SEEK COUNSEL from the righteous men and someone who is his peer in righteousness among the women so they can determine which one of the two is in the wrong (and help them correct it).” (Jalal al-din as-Suyuţi, Al-durar al-manthur fi tafsir bi’l ma’thur, retrieved August 30, 2010 from AlTafsir.) (The Prohibition Of Domestic Violence In Islam – A Fatwa issued by Shaykh M. Hisham Kabbani and Dr. Homayra Ziad [World Organization for Resource Development And Education, 2011], page 24)

Abu l-Qasim Abdu l-Karim al-Qushayri (986 – 1072 AD):

“What is meant here is to encourage them to correct themselves in stages and with KINDNESS. But if the matter is settled by admonishing then ONE SHOULD NOT BEAT HER (with a stick or the hand) BECAUSE THE VERSE IMPLIES the conduct of engaging in sexual relations.” (Abu l-Qasim Abdu l-Karim al-Qushayri, Laṭa’if al-isharat bi tafsir al-Qur’an (Egypt: Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyyah, 2000), retrieved August 30, 2010 from Altafsir website.) (The Prohibition Of Domestic Violence In Islam – A Fatwa issued by Shaykh M. Hisham Kabbani and Dr. Homayra Ziad [World Organization for Resource Development And Education, 2011], page 23)

 

[TekNiKo]

Nah you would be going to jail bro

Listen in reality of course there are days when your wife isnt in the mood and you go to sleep salty but this wont be a reoccuring event. No man has the energy to literally "force himself" nor is he gonna beg, shes the one putting the marriage at risk, when you hit her with talaq she will be begging to take you back but its too late

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

Listen in reality of course there are days when your wife isnt in the mood and you go to sleep salty but this wont be a reoccuring event. No man has the energy to literally "force himself" nor is he gonna beg, shes the one putting the marriage at risk, when you hit her with talaq she will be begging to take you back but its too late

In the West if she went to a court over this you would be screwed

 

[TekNiKo]

In the West if she went to a court over this you would be screwed

Only a fool would marry a women in the evil gyrocentric feminist West! He deserves to be screwed!

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

I looked up the topic in Islamic forums after I read the first couple of responses then I began to side with the Abdi's on the thread. I should of thought of it in a moral standpoint instead of, "Islam says this therefore women should do this". Even if women denying men sex is a sin, who cares as we commit sins everyday.

I apologize for what I posted earlier, I should have been more responsible.

 

[Gambar]

I can’t believe this is 15 pages full of xaar. Waa yaab wallahi.

 

[VixR]

I can’t believe this is 15 pages full of xaar. Waa yaab wallahi.

You always cheer me up when you come at the end of long thread, and declare it xaar.

 

[Gambar]

You always cheer me up when you come at the end of long thread, and declare it xaar.

This one in particular is shuban.

 

[Jiron]

Next will be @Jiron . I cant wait to see the reaction of all the xalimos here

Sex is supposed to be a two way between married couple, a man should never force himself on his wife if he truly loves her and vice verse.

 

[HalimaJ]

@Samaalic Era @Abdurahman_somali

I think a little empathy of women goes a long way. I don't know why you can't respect us as human beings and that forcing wives is also emotionally traumatic. I don't know if you arguing with the semantics or you truly believe a man can rape his wife.


But look what I have found. Pretty interesting read:


Nevertheless, forced sexual intercourse within marriage falls under another prohibited legal category in Islamic law: harming the wife. The classical scholars upheld the fundamental right of a wife to be free from harm. If a man forces his wife into sexual intercourse against her will, he can only do so by harming her and this makes his action unlawful. Marital rape, then, is more properly understood as an issue of domestic violence, an issue that was well-known to Muslim jurists since the time of the Prophet until today and for which we have ample precedent.

The principle of removing harm is an essential legal axiom (al-qawāʻid al-fiqhiyya) in the orthodox schools of Islamic law, as it forms the basis and rationale of so many rules in Islam.

Ubaida ibn As-Samit reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, issued a decree:

لاَ ضَرَرَ وَلاَ ضِرَارَ

Do not cause harm or return harm.

Source: Sunan ibn Majah 2340, Grade: Hasan

https://abuaminaelias.com/marital-rape-domestic-violence/

• Though marital rape would not warrant a hadd punishment12 in accordance to Shari`ah, this in no way means that such an act is acceptable or that it would go unpunished by an Islamic court. Some people mistakenly believe that the hadd punishments are the only ones that exist in Islamic law, but that is not the case. Even if an act does not fall into one of the specified categories for hadd punishment, a qadi [judge] still has the right to punish the person with imprisonment, corporal punishment (lashing), or anything else he deems suitable for the situation, the crime committed and the guilty individual (which is called zajr or ta’zeer).13 Some scholars even state that a wife who has been assaulted in such a manner by her spouse has the right to jirah, or civil redress, for her injuries.14

This is from: https://hadithoftheday.com/is-marital-rape-allowed-in-islam/

Its sad because some are saying it is allowed and acceptable and that only the west illegalised it. Why are you lot so hellbent on making it seem Islam is a religion that oppresses women?

Even if Islamic jurists do not see it as rape in the traditional sense, they still regard it as abuse and sexual assault. Abuse is not acceptable in islam.

Basically we have a 15 page thread on people arguing for the permissibility of sexually abusing your wife. Ajeeb.

 

[Luciddreamer]

good to put a face on the future rapists in here

 

[Abdurahman_somali]

Yup, I’m speaking in a general sense. Mutual respect between spouses is very important. If you have that respect you wouldn’t encroach on each other’s rights.

1. So it’s a problem of semantics for you? If it was called abuse or oppression you’d be okay with that?

Bear in mind that oppression is a major sin. When someone is forced to do something against their will there is harm caused, even if we do not perceive it.

Emotional coercion or this grandeur sense of male entitlement isn’t in harmony with the message of Islam.

Is it really wrong to defend a woman’s sexual agency within the confines of marriage?

2. I’d argue it’s far worse to be violated by your husband, the person that’s supposed to honor and protect you. Entering into a marital relationship implies consent but if at any point she becomes an unwilling participant and you physically force her then that’s a criminal act.

If a man has to force his wife to get ‘some’ there’s something seriously wrong with him.

1) What is law about, if it isn't about semantics ? Every act needs to be classified as what it is, because the consequences are different. It doesn't matter if both acts are crimes, the question of the OP was, if martial rape exists ? As I told you even in western laws it is very recent that they classify it as such. Rape is major crime that is punished with the death penalty in many countries, I doubt that anyone would want the same for the husband when he forces you to do a sexual act. Wether it is a crime or not was not even the debate to begin with, but if it is a specific crime, martial rape, hence the semantic are indeed very important.

2) You are talking out of your emotion. There is no way being forced to sex by someone you are in a general agreement for sex (marriage) is worse than bein raped by someone who you are not in such an arrangement.

 

[AussieHustler]

Guys

It is illegal in your country and don't encourage others to commit an act that is considered rape and lands them in jail. Respect the laws or settle some where else that the act is legal.

 

[Abdurahman_somali]

@Samaalic Era @Abdurahman_somali

I think a little empathy of women goes a long way. I don't know why you can't respect us as human beings and that forcing wives is also emotionally traumatic. I don't know if you arguing with the semantics or you truly believe a man can rape his wife.


But look what I have found. Pretty interesting read:


Nevertheless, forced sexual intercourse within marriage falls under another prohibited legal category in Islamic law: harming the wife. The classical scholars upheld the fundamental right of a wife to be free from harm. If a man forces his wife into sexual intercourse against her will, he can only do so by harming her and this makes his action unlawful. Marital rape, then, is more properly understood as an issue of domestic violence, an issue that was well-known to Muslim jurists since the time of the Prophet until today and for which we have ample precedent.

The principle of removing harm is an essential legal axiom (al-qawāʻid al-fiqhiyya) in the orthodox schools of Islamic law, as it forms the basis and rationale of so many rules in Islam.

Ubaida ibn As-Samit reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, issued a decree:

لاَ ضَرَرَ وَلاَ ضِرَارَ

Do not cause harm or return harm.

Source: Sunan ibn Majah 2340, Grade: Hasan

https://abuaminaelias.com/marital-rape-domestic-violence/

• Though marital rape would not warrant a hadd punishment12 in accordance to Shari`ah, this in no way means that such an act is acceptable or that it would go unpunished by an Islamic court. Some people mistakenly believe that the hadd punishments are the only ones that exist in Islamic law, but that is not the case. Even if an act does not fall into one of the specified categories for hadd punishment, a qadi [judge] still has the right to punish the person with imprisonment, corporal punishment (lashing), or anything else he deems suitable for the situation, the crime committed and the guilty individual (which is called zajr or ta’zeer).13 Some scholars even state that a wife who has been assaulted in such a manner by her spouse has the right to jirah, or civil redress, for her injuries.14

This is from: https://hadithoftheday.com/is-marital-rape-allowed-in-islam/

Its sad because some are saying it is allowed and acceptable and that only the west illegalised it. Why are you lot so hellbent on making it seem Islam is a religion that oppresses women?

Even if Islamic jurists do not see it as rape in the traditional sense, they still regard it as abuse and sexual assault. Abuse is not acceptable in islam.

Basically we have a 15 page thread on people arguing for the permissibility of sexually abusing your wife. Ajeeb.

To much baseless accusations as usual in this forum, I won't respond to them.

You all missed the whole debate. The OP asked, if martial rape exists and not if this is a crime. This are two different things. Law is not about I think, I Like and I wish. The act where a husband forces his wife to sleep with him, as I said before is wrong, in a previous comment. But should we classify it as rape is the question this thread is about.

As I said no we should not, because

1. This is against Islamic law and even western liberal laws did not classify it as rape before the 20th century and some not till the 21th century for a very good reason.

2. Rape is as serious crime that could be punished with the death penalty. Does anyone want this consequence for the husband who forces his wife ? If not, then it's not rape.

And again for you, this a question about law and law is only about semantics. Different acts, get different names, because of their different consequences or as they say in law ''legal consequences".

 

[Radical]

I looked up the topic in Islamic forums after I read the first couple of responses then I began to side with the Abdi's on the thread. I should of thought of it in a moral standpoint instead of, "Islam says this therefore women should do this". Even if women denying men sex is a sin, who cares as we commit sins everyday.

I apologize for what I posted earlier, I should have been more responsible.

In all my years in this site I've rarely if ever seen someone relinquish here, instead of endlessly bickering and basically running circles all day in hopes of protecting a fragile ego you've done something remarkable sxb. it takes strength to win an argument but even more strength to admit you might be wrong.

 

[HalimaJ]

1) What is law about, if it isn't about semantics ? Every act needs to be classified as what it is, because the consequences are different. It doesn't matter if both acts are crimes, the question of the OP was, if martial rape exists ? As I told you even in western laws it is very recent that they classify it as such. Rape is major crime that is punished with the death penalty in many countries, I doubt that anyone would want the same for the husband when he forces you to do a sexual act. Wether it is a crime or not was not even the debate to begin with, but if it is a specific crime, martial rape, hence the semantic are indeed very important.

2) You are talking out of your emotion. There is no way being forced to sex by someone you are in a general agreement for sex (marriage) is worse than bein raped by someone who you are not in such an arrangement.

To much baseless accusations as usual in this forum, I won't respond to them.

You all missed the whole debate. The OP asked, if martial rape exists and not if this is a crime. This are two different things. Law is not about I think, I Like and I wish. The act where a husband forces his wife to sleep with him, as I said before is wrong, in a previous comment. But should we classify it as rape is the question this thread is about.

As I said no we should not, because

1. This is against Islamic law and even western liberal laws did not classify it as rape before the 20th century and some not till the 21th century for a very good reason.

2. Rape is as serious crime that could be punished with the death penalty. Does anyone want this consequence for the husband who forces his wife ? If not, then it's not rape.

And again for you, this a question about law and law is only about semantics. Different acts, get different names, because of their different consequences or as they say in law ''legal consequences".

Rape is a type of sexual assault. It is when you force someone to do something sexually. Furthermore, If we look at the basic and strictest definition of rape, then yes, a man most definitely can force and assault his own wife. That is literally what rape means. If I was to argue that a man can sexually abuse his wife, you would probably agree, so why argue with me about a word that has the exact same meaning?


Saying marital rape does not exist is equivalent to you saying that sexual abuse/assault in marriage does not exist. Rape is simply another word for it. Therefore it is a discussion of semantics. You can argue that marital rape is not the same and that the punishment should be different, but saying it doesn't exist is like saying a woman cannot be sexually abused by her partner when she can.

Even the sources that I posted acknowledge marital rape, but argue that it comes under 'domestic abuse', rather than rape in the traditional sense. Yet many here do not acknowledge it at all.

Also, i'm not throwing around baseless accusations. Look at what your fellow Faraaxs have wrote on the subject. It is obvious that they believe it is not a crime for a man to sexually abuse his wife. For a lot it isn't even about the term/word, it is deeper than that. They believe the very act of forcing is not morally wrong as he is 'the husband'.

Overall, I'm fully aware marital rape does not warrant hadd punishment in islamic law. The ways of dealing with it is completely different legally. I'm not arguing that.

 

[Abdurahman_somali]

Rape is a type of sexual assault. It is when you force someone to do something sexually. Furthermore, If we look at the basic and strictest definition of rape, then yes, a man most definitely can force and assault his own wife. That is literally what rape means. If I was to argue that a man can sexually abuse his wife, you would probably agree, so why argue with me about a word that has the exact same meaning?


Saying marital rape does not exist is equivalent to you saying that sexual abuse/assault in marriage does not exist. Rape is simply another word for it. Therefore it is a discussion of semantics. You can argue that marital rape is not the same and that the punishment should be different, but saying it doesn't exist is like saying a woman cannot be sexually abused by her partner when she can.

Even the sources that I posted acknowledge marital rape, but argue that it comes under 'domestic abuse', rather than rape in the traditional sense. Yet many here do not acknowledge it at all.

Also, i'm not throwing around baseless accusations. Look at what your fellow Faraaxs have wrote on the subject. It is obvious that they believe it is not a crime for a man to sexually abuse his wife. For a lot it isn't even about the term/word, it is deeper than that. They believe the very act of forcing is not morally wrong as he is 'the husband'.

Overall, I'm fully aware marital rape does not warrant hadd punishment in islamic law. The ways of dealing with it is completely different legally. I'm not arguing that.

First of all you made a few mistakes in your definitions. Sexual assault is every act where you do any type of sexual act on someone without the consent of the victim, whereas rape is a specific form of sexual assault, where you penetrate the victim, i.e. get with something into his body. This two are not equivalent, rape is just a specific type where penetration is involved. [According to modern western law]

We are discussing the act where a husband forcefully penetrates the body of his wife, correct ? So is this sexual assault ? Yes because the husband has forced the wife to perform a sexual act without her consent. Is it rape ? NO, even though the husband has penetrated her body it is NOT rape, because the two persons are married. This was a unanimously agreed upon law until recent western law makers chnages their opinions in the 20th/21th century. A husband cannot RAPE his own wife.

In other words let us differentiate between three cases:

1. Sexual assault is every sexual act which is performed without the consent of the victim.

2. Rape is, If you additionally penetrate the body of the victim.

3. If the victim (wife) gets penetrated by her husband against he will, than it cannot be classified as rape, because they are married. It is a form of sexual assault, but which type it is, should be a question for law makers.

The simple reason why case three is not Rape is, the legal consequences are complelty different, which you agreed in your last paragraph as well. In case two (Rape) the perpetrator will most likely face the death penalty, whereas I do not think anyone would say the perpetrator in the third case (penetrating the wife without her consent) should get the same penalty.

Now to respond to a few of your arguments. When I say martial rape does not exist it does not mean sexual assault does not exist. Martial rape implicates that the perpetrator (husband) is a rapist and should face the same legal consequences as a rapist (death penalty), which is complelty non sense. As for sexual assault it means any type of sexual act was performed on the wife without her consent and this is the case when her husband forces her to sleep with her, i.e. penetrates her. I already called this wrong, but calling this rape is delusional.

Another point. A wife should NOT and doesn't have the right to deny her husband his right for sex (and vice verca). No human being forces his wife for sex when she is in a bad mood or sick. I would advise any brother who is a married to such an evil woman ( who constantly denies his right for sex) to either marry a second wife or get rid of her.