Keep in mind the actual name of northern Somali dialect is Maxaa Tiri, so the people haven't change, but sadly much of the history has not been documented.
Map and classification of the Omo-Tana languages (the language group Somali is in), OC (Revised)
- Thread starter Mohamedamiin120
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I really think the idea that the riverine dialects persevere more archaic features is something that has to be scrutinized. I use to accept it uncritically. But isn't it weird people talk about northern somali being influenced by Arabic or other languages when basically almost every foeriegn pouplation that moved to somalia lives in the riverine region. How would it be possible for a place where you have literally hundreds of thosuands of bantus, arabs, Benadiri, bravanese and assimilated oromos to persevere a more archaic dialect.
We really should start with the assumption that these riverine dialects are all highly divergent. Its clear in the Arab example how nomadic pouplations would preserve a more archaic form of the language since they had less contact with outsiders.
We really should start with the assumption that these riverine dialects are all highly divergent. Its clear in the Arab example how nomadic pouplations would preserve a more archaic form of the language since they had less contact with outsiders.
Riftvalley
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You are onto something because in some respects it could be the way around:
Rendille retains the x sound whereas as Af Maay doesn’t. It also present in Iraqw. The Arabic or saho/afar influence doesn’t make sense in this regard because Rendille are isolated from all those groups. I think Af Maay lost the sound when they became isolated from af mahaa speakers. Interestingly, it is what the two speakers use to differentiate themselves into “af Maxa” and” Maay”, a group who says X and a group who doesn’t. I don’t buy into the theory af Maxa was heavily influenced by Saho or Afar. Arabic (especially South Arabian needs to be researched more though).
Basically sister languages of somali spoken in what is now the somali landmass, not dialects of somali.
I don't know about that either since the only Somalis who would have significant contact with such groups would be the Somalis living in the Awash river and Djibouti.
Yh I just think its weird how we dont talk much about the fact that you had this massive foreign pouplation between beledwayne and bardhere and how that would have impacted the dialects located there.
Its an incredibly strange theory when you consider how small and concentrated the afar pouplation is as well as the fact that a lot of afar are actually assimilated dir somalis
Riftvalley
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I think the theory was that af Maxa was in contact with an afar/saho type language for longer than af Maay speakers. Maybe Afar-Saho/somali are closer to how lowland east Cushitic sounded (I believe most linguistics reject this hypothesis and say the opposite-Af Maay is more archaic). https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1015/5/03_A. O. MANSUR - A lexical aspect of somali and east-cushitic languages.pdf
What I would say is that Af Maay does have a kind of Oromo cadence when you hear it. I am not sure if any others have picked up.
Edit: it’s actually crazy beer (liver) has no cognate in other Cushitic languages.
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Riftvalley
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You mean oromos or Bantus?
Both actually. Bantus as a result of the post 18th century omani slave trade . Wheras oromos where the dominant ethnic group being traded before this.
The problem with this is that the proto eastern cushtic reconstructions are based off using highland east cushtic lanaguges and oromo . But if my assumptjon about the large amounts of oromos and highland east cushtic slaves that were kept in the jubba valley as farming slaves is accurate then doesn't it make more sense to assume the simpler explanation which is that Bayso and dabbre are dialects impacted by this slave trade ?
Riftvalley
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I don’t think the type of slavery Somalis would lead to heavy burrowing in everyday language. What is interesting is how af Maxa according the study Above is prone to take loan words (from Arabic) but also in innovating words. Perhaps due to trade, nomadic poetry and geography?
Ps. The old paper still pushes the south to migration north narrative.
It may be possble if we consider how long early Somalis were living near Afars. Both Somalis and Afars-Saho are Red Sea peoples as that is the route both groups went they left Sudan.
My understanding is that the east cushtic lingustics reconstruction are considered unreliable and this paper based of research from the late 70s which is even further back then ehrets work.
I also think there has to be a deeper study of these "Arabic loan words" we know that the modern south arabian lanaguges have a cushtic substratum . So I think its very difficult to know for sure about the origin of these loan words.
But I think the biggest flaw in the omo tana theory is that why dont the somali galbeed dialects whidh border the other eastern cushtic lanaguges not retain these features or even a sign of them?
I think it would be just simpler to assume that its somali influence on afar-saho.
I know it might seem like im being biased but I think one of the biggest fall outs from 20th century colonial historiography is how every similarity somalis share with another group of people is assumed to be a sign of that group influencencing somalis. Ive almost never seen anything written where the shared similarity is attributed to a somali origin
Idilinaa
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I believe the point about Southern dialects retaining more archaic words and features is largely accurate. It’s not simply that the Northern dialects have more borrowings or foreign influence distinguishing them from the Southern dialects; rather, they have undergone more internal innovation and linguistic change.
Southern dialects, in fact, share about 80%+ of their lexicon and vocabulary with the Northern Somali dialects.
To make this clearer, let me show a few examples of these innovations.
As you can see, Northerners say weji for “face” instead of fool, which is the form used in the southern dialects. However, the original word still exists in Northern dialects in expressions like fool xuume (“ugly face”), showing that it has not disappeared entirely.
Another example is how Northerners once pronounced gaal instead of geel (“camel”), a pronunciation preserved in certain clan and place names. Interestingly, this older form is still maintained in southern dialects. You can also see such variations reflected in old Somali poetry, where certain words or expressions, though less common in daily northern speech, appear frequently and align more closely with southern usage.
This doesn’t mean that Southern Somali dialects are inherently older than Northern ones; rather, it indicates that the Northern dialects have undergone more change over time. These differences are the result of processes of convergence and differentiation, which are closely tied to ecology and patterns of social interaction.
The final point you mentioned is similar to how we say that reer miyi (rural people) tend to preserve more traditional Somali expressions than reer magaal (urban people). In this context, it’s not a matter of a herding-versus-farming distinction, when they talk about Arabic dialects, but rather a rural-versus-urban one. In fact, much of the urban South historically spoke varieties closer to the Northern dialects.
Even the Tunni dialect of Barawa, for example, clustered more closely with Northern dialects, setting it apart from the Tunni dialect spoken in the countryside:
In fact, a recent linguistic study shared with me , that was by Nuuh , showed that Barawa itself had a distinct Somali dialect spoken within the city, different from the Tunni dialect used in the countryside:
For comparison:
This dialectal map clearly shows that Barawa clusters with Benadiri -Northern Somali dialects on the far end .
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I think my skepticism comes from the fact that If you look at the bulk of this list it becomes obvious that most of these lanaguges he's comparing in the omo-tana stuff are basically lamaguges that are right next to each other or would have been the source of slaves that are working in the jubba valley.
If you look at this picture and imagine the pre-oromo expansion range of these lanaguges then theyre basically the southern Ethiopia region which one of the prime sources of slaves .
I suspect if we did dna tests on jiidu and dabarre speakers we'd find elevated levels of omotic from southern Ethiopia and sidamic people's.
Theres just also the fact that this research is very old nad there are all sorts of mistakes in it from the fact that he says naf is an Arabic word and that guri might be loaned from harari a lanaguge which didnt even exists a couple hundred years ago
Theres just also the fact that this research is very old nad there are all sorts of mistakes in it from the fact that he says naf is an Arabic word and that guri might be loaned from harari a lanaguge which didnt even exists a couple hundred years ago
Hell even af maay speaking clans acknowledge that their clans are extremely diverse and are confederations more than actual blood related clans. They even have a clear distinct between noble member's of a clan and slave member's of a clan.
Given that this was an incredibly diverse region with people constantly coming and going it seems odd to assume that they would not be heavily impacted by all the different somali and non somali speaking pouplations that lived here together. Just the fact that you had several hudnres thosuand bantu speakers living here within the span of 2 centuries is a testament to how much contact with non-somalis af maay speakers had.
Given that this was an incredibly diverse region with people constantly coming and going it seems odd to assume that they would not be heavily impacted by all the different somali and non somali speaking pouplations that lived here together. Just the fact that you had several hudnres thosuand bantu speakers living here within the span of 2 centuries is a testament to how much contact with non-somalis af maay speakers had.
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Im acc tired of people telling any somali they see they look like "insert beta squad member"- Started by kamek
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