Map and classification of the Omo-Tana languages (the language group Somali is in), OC (Revised)

[NidarNidar]

Northern Somali dialects is more similar to Saho and Afar in some ways, because they gained certain sounds/prounciations thats is missing in the southern dialects and Oromo. Which if i recall correctly M.Nuuh attributes to sustained contact with their afro-asiatic speaking red sea neighbors.


But yeah the Omo-Tana Theory is bunk Somalis which also include southerners originated in the northern part.

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Keep in mind the actual name of northern Somali dialect is Maxaa Tiri, so the people haven't change, but sadly much of the history has not been documented.

 

[Midas]

I really think the idea that the riverine dialects persevere more archaic features is something that has to be scrutinized. I use to accept it uncritically. But isn't it weird people talk about northern somali being influenced by Arabic or other languages when basically almost every foeriegn pouplation that moved to somalia lives in the riverine region. How would it be possible for a place where you have literally hundreds of thosuands of bantus, arabs, Benadiri, bravanese and assimilated oromos to persevere a more archaic dialect.

We really should start with the assumption that these riverine dialects are all highly divergent. Its clear in the Arab example how nomadic pouplations would preserve a more archaic form of the language since they had less contact with outsiders.

 

[Riftvalley]

I really think the idea that the riverine dialects persevere more archaic features is something that has to be scrutinized. I use to accept it uncritically. But isn't it weird people talk about northern somali being influenced by Arabic or other languages when basically almost every foeriegn pouplation that moved to somalia lives in the riverine region. How would it be possible for a place where you have literally hundreds of thosuands of bantus, arabs, Benadiri, bravanese and assimilated oromos to persevere a more archaic dialect.

We really should start with the assumption that these riverine dialects are all highly divergent. Its clear in the Arab example how nomadic pouplations would preserve a more archaic form of the language since they had less contact with outsiders.

You are onto something because in some respects it could be the way around:

Rendille retains the x sound whereas as Af Maay doesn’t. It also present in Iraqw. The Arabic or saho/afar influence doesn’t make sense in this regard because Rendille are isolated from all those groups. I think Af Maay lost the sound when they became isolated from af mahaa speakers. Interestingly, it is what the two speakers use to differentiate themselves into “af Maxa” and” Maay”, a group who says X and a group who doesn’t. I don’t buy into the theory af Maxa was heavily influenced by Saho or Afar. Arabic (especially South Arabian needs to be researched more though).

 

[The Oponian Guild]

View attachment 364414Fixed??? Read extra throughly so this is the last change needed hopfully

Basically sister languages of somali spoken in what is now the somali landmass, not dialects of somali.

 

[Zak12]

I don’t buy into the theory af Maxa was heavily influenced by Saho or Afar.

I don't know about that either since the only Somalis who would have significant contact with such groups would be the Somalis living in the Awash river and Djibouti.

 

[giire12]

Can Af maay distinguish between inan and inaan?

 

[Midas]

You are onto something because in some respects it could be the way around:

Rendille retains the x sound whereas as Af Maay doesn’t. It also present in Iraqw. The Arabic or saho/afar influence doesn’t make sense in this regard because Rendille are isolated from all those groups. I think Af Maay lost the sound when they became isolated from af mahaa speakers. Interestingly, it is what the two speakers use to differentiate themselves into “af Maxa” and” Maay”, a group who says X and a group who doesn’t. I don’t buy into the theory af Maxa was heavily influenced by Saho or Afar. Arabic (especially South Arabian needs to be researched more though).

Yh I just think its weird how we dont talk much about the fact that you had this massive foreign pouplation between beledwayne and bardhere and how that would have impacted the dialects located there.

 

[Midas]

don’t buy into the theory af Maxa was heavily influenced by Saho or Afar.

Its an incredibly strange theory when you consider how small and concentrated the afar pouplation is as well as the fact that a lot of afar are actually assimilated dir somalis

 

[Riftvalley]

Its an incredibly strange theory when you consider how small and concentrated the afar pouplation is as well as the fact that a lot of afar are actually assimilated dir somalis

I think the theory was that af Maxa was in contact with an afar/saho type language for longer than af Maay speakers. Maybe Afar-Saho/somali are closer to how lowland east Cushitic sounded (I believe most linguistics reject this hypothesis and say the opposite-Af Maay is more archaic). https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1015/5/03_A. O. MANSUR - A lexical aspect of somali and east-cushitic languages.pdf

What I would say is that Af Maay does have a kind of Oromo cadence when you hear it. I am not sure if any others have picked up.

Edit: it’s actually crazy beer (liver) has no cognate in other Cushitic languages.

 

[Riftvalley]

Yh I just think its weird how we dont talk much about the fact that you had this massive foreign pouplation between beledwayne and bardhere and how that would have impacted the dialects located there.

You mean oromos or Bantus?

 

[Midas]

You mean oromos or Bantus?

Both actually. Bantus as a result of the post 18th century omani slave trade . Wheras oromos where the dominant ethnic group being traded before this.

 

[Midas]

I think the theory was that af Maxa was in contact with an afar/saho type language for longer than af Maay speakers. Maybe Afar-Saho/somali are closer to how lowland east Cushitic sounded (I believe most linguistics reject this hypothesis and say the opposite-Af Maay is more archaic). https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1015/5/03_A. O. MANSUR - A lexical aspect of somali and east-cushitic languages.pdf

What I would say is that Af Maay does have a kind of Oromo cadence when you hear it. I am not sure if any others have picked up.

The problem with this is that the proto eastern cushtic reconstructions are based off using highland east cushtic lanaguges and oromo . But if my assumptjon about the large amounts of oromos and highland east cushtic slaves that were kept in the jubba valley as farming slaves is accurate then doesn't it make more sense to assume the simpler explanation which is that Bayso and dabbre are dialects impacted by this slave trade ?

 

[Riftvalley]

The problem with this is that the proto eastern cushtic reconstructions are based off using highland east cushtic lanaguges and oromo . But if my assumptjon about the large amounts of oromos and highland east cushtic slaves that were kept in the jubba valley as farming slaves is accurate then doesn't it make more sense to assume the simpler explanation which is that Bayso and dabbre are dialects impacted by this slave trade ?

https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/1015/5/03_A.%20O.%20MANSUR%20-%20A%20lexical%20aspect%20of%20somali%20and%20east-cushitic%20languages.pdf

I don’t think the type of slavery Somalis would lead to heavy burrowing in everyday language. What is interesting is how af Maxa according the study Above is prone to take loan words (from Arabic) but also in innovating words. Perhaps due to trade, nomadic poetry and geography?

Ps. The old paper still pushes the south to migration north narrative.

 

[Zak12]

Its an incredibly strange theory when you consider how small and concentrated the afar pouplation is as well as the fact that a lot of afar are actually assimilated dir somalis

It may be possble if we consider how long early Somalis were living near Afars. Both Somalis and Afars-Saho are Red Sea peoples as that is the route both groups went they left Sudan.

Northern Somali dialects is more similar to Saho and Afar in some ways, because they gained certain sounds/prounciations thats is missing in the southern dialects and Oromo. Which if i recall correctly M.Nuuh attributes to sustained contact with their afro-asiatic speaking red sea neighbors.