Jarahoroto (ancient) town in Awdal named after King and Queen of the Harla people

[DeathWish]

There is no way of confirming how long Somalis have been in the Horn unless we come across y-dna from ancient burial grounds.

The answers you seek lie in the dead as our ancestors were not literate and left no clues. Makes you wish you were Greek, innit.

No, I don't wish my ancestors were Khaniisiin.
Us Somalis will not go dig out our ancestors and mutilate their bodies looking for DNA. We are not as savage as the cadaans. We respect them and we will leave them in their graves. It is haram to mutilate the dead!

 

[anonimo]

You make assumptions that I wouldn't. 14th century is still 1300's. 14 from 21 is only 700 years. To get the 800 years, you have to go back to aw Barkhadle, who is thought to have lived 12th-13th centuries, but whose dates are not exactly known. Sada Mire says 850 years ago. However you figure it, not ancient. Do you know any Samaale abtirsi that is older than 1200 AD?

I am not following some of your "logic". Even a thousand years is not ancient relative to T. The early migration was 7-21 KYA. Your Oromo example in the other thread would thin the bloodline, not push it to near 100%.

You are not making sense to me either.

What absolute evidence is there to prove that Samaales are only 800 years old? No written evidence to support such a claim.

What absolute evidence is there to prove Aw Barkhadle lived in the 12-13th century? No written evidence whatsoever but just theories.

Abtirsi is not a reliable historical source to determine the age of the Samaale ethnic group as it could be subjected to falsification, omission or expansion of ancestors etc.

I never argued that the ancestor of certain Somali haplogroup T carriers lived a 1000 years ago. Previously, I stated that the TMRCA of the Somali Haplogroup T cluster that I belong to is estimated to be around 2000 years old in the Danish study. Anyway, what has this got to do with my dismissal of unproven theories as to what route my haplogroup T ancestors took when they settled the Horn.

 

[anonimo]

No, I don't wish my ancestors were Khaniisiin.
Us Somalis will not go dig out our ancestors and mutilate their bodies looking for DNA. We are not as savage as the cadaans. We respect them and we will leave them in their graves. It is haram to mutilate the dead!

It was a joke about having a literate civilisation like the Greeks.

I believe in letting the dead rest in peace so save your wrath for those deserving of it.

 

[Grant]

You are not making sense to me either.

What absolute evidence is there to prove that Samaales are only 800 years old? No written evidence to support such a claim.

What absolute evidence is there to prove Aw Barkhadle lived in the 12-13th century? No written evidence whatsoever but just theories.

Abtirsi is not a reliable historical source to determine the age of the Samaale ethnic group as it could be subjected to falsification, omission or expansion of ancestors etc.

I never argued that the ancestor of certain Somali haplogroup T carriers lived a 1000 years ago. Previously, I stated that the TMRCA of the Somali Haplogroup T cluster that I belong to is estimated to be around 2000 years old in the Danish study. Anyway, what has this got to do with my dismissal of unproven theories as to what route my haplogroup T ancestors took when they settled the Horn.

The authors of the Danish study were aware they had a limited and undefined gene pool. How can you accept that and still complain about unknown subclans in the other data? Your dismissal of "unproven theories" is your business. But I believe we have enough to conclude T came from the north.
Whether they came through Sinai or the Red Sea is immaterial at this point. That will come out with further testing. The important issue is that there is too much T in the Dir for them to have been part of the E1b1b migration. They did not come from the south.

Lacking written material, we have to turn to less explicit techniques, such as archaeology. So far, we have Aksumite/Himyarite/Harla settlements in the North, and an Ethio-Arabic rock art site at Laas Gaal. In the South we have Buur Heybe, an 11,000 year old site linked to the Eyle, a definitely indigenous people of Negroid/Khoisan.descent. Perhaps you can also work from that direction.

I find this chronology helpfull:

http://shcas.shnu.edu.cn/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=mIT6VhON6/c=&tabid=12805&mid=31237&language=zh-CN

Chronology
4000 BCE Jiddu presence in the Horn (proto-Somali I).

3000 Emergence of Proto-Somali II or pre-Rendille and Garre.

2000 The Tunni group occupy the lower Shabelle valley. Early herd-
ing communities in the Horn.

1000 Proto-Somali III speakers, including the Garre and the Tunni, oc-
cupy the Juba valley.

200 Ptolemies of Egypt move into the Horn to get elephants to be
used against their rival Seleucids in the east, who are using In-
dian elephants.

150 Himyarite (South Yemen) presence in the coastal towns. Sultan
As’ad al-Himyari rules Mogadishu and environs.

632 AD The exiles of the Riddah (apostasy wars), mainly from Oman,
settle in Banadir and later move to the hinterlands through the
waterways of the Shabelle and the Juba, laying the foundation
for the early Islamic centers of Afgoy, Bali, Harar, and others.

695 Migration of an Omani group led by brothers Suleiman and Sa’id
of Juland to settle on the East African Zanj coast.

700 Caliph Abdul Malik Ibn Marwan of the Umayyads sends an ex-
pedition to the East African coast to conquer Mogadishu and se-
cure its kharaj, or annual tribute.

739 The first Shi’ite emigrants arrive on the East African coast.

755 Abu Ja’far al-Mansur, of the Abbasids, appoints a
na’ib(viceroy) to collect taxes and supervise the teaching of Islam in Mogadishu.

804 The Muslims of Bilaad al-Zanj (the land of Zanj), present-day So-
malia and East Africa, rebel against the Abbasids and refuse to pay
kharaj taxation. Caliph Harun al-Rashid sends a punitive expedition.

829 Al-Ma’mun, the seventh Abbasid caliph, sends 50,000 men to
crush the secessionist Muslim towns of Bilaad al-Zanj and force
them to pay their back taxes.

920 A group led by the “Seven Brothers of al-Ahsa,” from the Per-
sian Gulf, settle in Mogadishu and Barawa, Somalia.

935 Al-Mas’udi (d. 957), a Muslim traveler-historian, in his book
Muruj al-Dhhahab wa Ma’adin al-Jawhar
(The garden of gold and gems), describes the socioeconomic life of Somali cities,
both on the Khalij al-Barbari (Gulf of Aden) and the Bahr al-Zanj
(Indian Ocean).

1000 Hassan ibn Ali al-Shirazi leads the largest migration from Persia
to East Africa.

1001 Oligarchic city governments emerge in Mogadishu and coastal
towns of southern Somalia. Mogadishu is governed by a con-
federation of 39 clans: 12 from the Muqri clan, 12 from the
Djid’ati, 6 from the Aqabi, 6 from the Isma’ili and 3 from
the Afifi.

1154 Al-Idrisi (1100–1166), a Muslim geographer, reports that Marka
(Merca) and Barawat (Barawa) are towns on Bahr al-Zanj (the
Sea of the Blacks), that is, the Indian Ocean, and that there are
Hawiye settlements on the Banadir coast.

1228 Al-Hamawi (d. 1228), a Muslim traveler who compiled
Mu’jam al-Buldan (Dictionary of cities), includes entries for Zayla,
Berbera, Mogadishu, and Marka. He notes that the inhabitants of
Berbera are very dark and speak an unwritten language, but that
the inhabitants of Mogadishu are not blacks.

1238 The construction of Jama’ mosque in Hamar Weyn quarter, Mo-
gadishu, is completed.

1268 The construction of Arba’a Rukun mosque in Mogadishu is com-
pleted.

1269 The construction of Fakhruddin mosque in Hamar Weyn quarter,
Mogadishu, is completed.

1286 Ibn Sa’id al-Maghribi (1212–1286), a Muslim geographer, notes
that Mogadishu is Madinat al-Islam, an Islamic center.

1300 Beginning of hostilities between Muslims and Christians in the
Horn. Abyssinia requires the sultanates of Bali, Hadya, Harar,
Fatajar, Dawaro, and Ifat to pay tribute.

1301 Theocratic rule of the Qahtani dynasty begins in Mogadishu.

1328 Amda Syon I, emperor of Abyssinia (1314–1344), jails Haq
al-Din I, Sultan of Ifat, when the sultan refuses to pay tribute.

1330 Abu Bakar bin Fakhruddin establishes the Fakhruddin dynasty in
Mogadishu.

1331 Ibn Battuta visits and gives a full description of Zayla and Mogadishu.

1332 Jamal al-Din, the sultan of Ifat, sends an emissary to the Mam-
luks sultan of Egypt requesting military and political support in
the conflict with the Abyssinians.

1333 Haq al-Din II becomes new Sultan of Ifat and declares jihad
against the Abyssinians. He fights until killed in battle in 1386.

1415 Sa’d al-Din II (1386–1415), the successor of Haq al-Din II, is as-
sassinated on the island of Zayla.

1445 The exhausted Muhammad ibn Badlay (1445–1471) of Awdal
Sultanate (or Adal, which had its capital in Zayla) concedes the
payment of an annual tribute to Abyssinia.

1450 The Persian Zuzni dynasty comes to power in Mogadishu.

1471 Lada’i Uthman, emir of the Awdal, renews the jihad against
Abyssinia and defeats two successive Abyssinian military expeditions in 1473/4.

1499 3 January: Vasco da Gama shells Mogadishu, “a large town,
with houses of several stories, big palaces in its center, and four
towers around it.”

Do you notice all the "protos" in the first part, and all the potential T in the last? The Somalis, as Somalis, form quite late. E1b1b and T are both far older, but at that age they are neither Samaale nor Somali. The first mention of a Samaale clan is likely the one by Al-Idrisi in 1154. But even that is less than 1000 years ago, and I don't think you will find an abtirsi that old.

 

[anonimo]

The authors of the Danish study were aware they had a limited and undefined gene pool. How can you accept that and still complain about unknown subclans in the other data?

When I referenced the Danish study in regard to haplogroup T, I clearly emphasised that I was speaking about the Haplogroup T STR cluster that I belong to and did not claim it was representative of all Somali haplogroup T carriers. Hence, why I have been preaching the need to discover whether all Dir haplogroup T carriers belong to the same subclade/snp.

Your dismissal of "unproven theories" is your business. But I believe we have enough to conclude T came from the north. Whether they came through Sinai or the Red Sea is immaterial at this point. That will come out with further testing. The important issue is that there is too much T in the Dir for them to have been part of the E1b1b migration. They did not come from the south.

Lacking written material, we have to turn to less explicit techniques, such as archaeology. So far, we have Aksumite/Himyarite/Harla settlements in the North, and an Ethio-Arabic rock art site at Laas Gaal. In the South we have Buur Heybe, an 11,000 year old site linked to the Eyle, a definitely indigenous people of Negroid/Khoisan.descent. Perhaps you can also work from that direction. The Somalis, as Somalis, form quite late. E1b1b and T are both far older, but at that age they are neither Samaale nor Somali. The first mention of a Samaale clan is likely the one by Al-Idrisi in 1154. But even that is less than 1000 years ago, and I don't think you will find an abtirsi that old.

You are entitled to your opinion, I never denied you that. All I did was emphasise that it is too soon, scientifically speaking, to use the limited data on Somalis to make assumptions about the origin of Halogroup T in Somalis.

 

[Grant]

When I referenced the Danish study in regard to haplogroup T, I clearly emphasised that I was speaking about the Haplogroup T STR cluster that I belong to and did not claim it was representative of all Somali haplogroup T carriers. Hence, why I have been preaching the need to discover whether all Dir haplogroup T carriers belong to the same subclade/snp.




You are entitled to your opinion, I never denied you that. All I did was emphasise that it is too soon, scientifically speaking, to use the limited data on Somalis to make assumptions about the origin of Halogroup T in Somalis.

There is no question about the origin of Haplotype T in Somalis. It comes from the upper Mediterranean basin to the Zagros mountains in Iran. The issue for you is whether or not they came via Sinai or the Red Sea, something I am willing to wait for more information to find out.

 

[anonimo]

There is no question about the origin of Haplotype T in Somalis. It comes from the upper Mediterranean basin to the Zagros mountains in Iran.

I have not challenged the contemporary belief among scientist that the T1 haplogroup Somalis belong to originated in Western Asia or Southern Europe. For heavens sake, T1 is estimated to be around 16000 years old. https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-L206/ Its point of origin does not add much to this debate as it has spread far and wide in 16000 years and reached some parts of Africa earlier than others.

The issue for you is whether or not they came via Sinai or the Red Sea, something I am willing to wait for more information to find out.

1. If it is discovered that the subclade SNP of Somali haplogroup T carriers is similar to those found in Southern Cushitic groups such as the Iraqw then it is likely that they entered the Horn with E1b1b Cushites.

2. If their SNP is found mainly in the Middle East and is significantly absent among other Africans that carry haplogroup T, then we can start to consider whether they are part of a later migratory event via the Red Sea/Indian Ocean. For example, the Founder Effect might have been caused by a lone migrant that settled in the Horn.

I am not ruling out anything, just keeping an open mind.

 

[Grant]

I have not challenged the contemporary belief among scientist that the T1 haplogroup Somalis belong to originated in Western Asia or Southern Europe. For heavens sake, T1 is estimated to be around 16000 years old. https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-L206/ Its point of origin does not add much to this debate as it has spread far and wide in 16000 years and reached some parts of Africa earlier than others.


1. If it is discovered that the subclade SNP of Somali haplogroup T carriers is similar to those found in Southern Cushitic groups such as the Iraqw then it is likely that they entered the Horn with E1b1b Cushites.

2. If their SNP is found mainly in the Middle East and is significantly absent among other Africans that carry haplogroup T, then we can start to consider whether they are part of a later migratory event via the Red Sea/Indian Ocean. For example, the Founder Effect might have been caused by a lone migrant that settled in the Horn.

I am not ruling out anything, just keeping an open mind.

http://www.academia.edu/6100873/Origins_and_history_of_Haplogroup_T_mtDNA_

"The mutation defining haplogroup T happened some time around 29,000 years ago, probably in the East Mediterranean region. T1and T2 split from each others some 21,000 years ago, toward the end of the Last Glacial Maximum (c. 26,500 to 19,000 yearsbefore present). T2c and T2d developed almost immediately afterwards, followed by T1a, T1b, T2a and T2f circa 17,000 years ago,and T2h 15,000 years ago. The most recent subclades are T2b, T2e and T2g, which date from 10,000 years before present, duringthe Pre-Pottery Neolithic period. T2b was by far the most successful, accounting for roughly half of all T2 individuals in Europe. T2bis subdivided in 30 basal subclades (+ their own ramifications) to date, twice more than all other T2 subclades combined."

The T found in the Middle East and North Africa is T1a1f. No other T is listed for Africa.

 

[Sophisticate]

I wonder why T1a is more common in the Horn than in the Middle East (it's negligible in Southern Arabian countries) and in North Africa (with the exception of a few groups). Its geographically spread out and nothing to write home about when it comes to haplogroups. And isn't this thread about an ancient town in Awdal. When did it devolve into a thread about genetics? Somalia only has 2 dominant haplogroups, compare that to wherever you're from Grant; they've probably got so many different aabos. You are what you are autosomally and most Somalis are identical in that respect, haplogroups aside.

 

[anonimo]

http://www.academia.edu/6100873/Origins_and_history_of_Haplogroup_T_mtDNA_

"The mutation defining haplogroup T happened some time around 29,000 years ago, probably in the East Mediterranean region. T1and T2 split from each others some 21,000 years ago, toward the end of the Last Glacial Maximum (c. 26,500 to 19,000 yearsbefore present). T2c and T2d developed almost immediately afterwards, followed by T1a, T1b, T2a and T2f circa 17,000 years ago,and T2h 15,000 years ago. The most recent subclades are T2b, T2e and T2g, which date from 10,000 years before present, duringthe Pre-Pottery Neolithic period. T2b was by far the most successful, accounting for roughly half of all T2 individuals in Europe. T2bis subdivided in 30 basal subclades (+ their own ramifications) to date, twice more than all other T2 subclades combined."

The T found in the Middle East and North Africa is T1a1f. No other T is listed for Africa.

Do you realize that this shit you posted is completely irrelevant to the discussion we are having?

Grant, MTDNA Haplogroup T is acquired maternally and has nothing to do with Y-DNA haplogroup T.

 

[Grant]

Do you realize that this shit you posted is completely irrelevant to the discussion we are having?

Grant, MTDNA Haplogroup T is acquired maternally and has nothing to do with Y-DNA haplogroup T.

We were discussing migrations, not Y DNA specifically. If you don't think MtDNA is worthy of study in that regard, then check this:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

"Haplogroup T emerged from haplogroup K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. The vast majority of modern members of haplogroup T belong to the T1a branch, which developed during the late glacial period, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, possibily in the vicinity of the Iranian Plateau.

Although haplogroup T is more common today in East Africa than anywhere else, it almost certainly spread from the Fertile Crescent with the rise of agriculture. Indeed, the oldest subclades and the greatest diversity of T is found in the Middle East, especially around the Fertile Crescent. Lazaridis et al. (2016) identified one carrier of haplogroup T among the remains of the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site in Jordan. A T1a sample was also found in the Early Neolithic Linear Pottery (LBK) culture in Germany by Mathieson et al. (2015). By the end of the last glacial period, 12,000 years ago, haplogroup T had already differentiated into subclades such as T1a1a, T1a2, T1a3a and T1a3b. Deeper subclades developed in the Near East during the Early Neolithic period for several millennia before early farmers started expanding beyond the Near East.

Neolithic colonisation of the Arabian peninsula and East Africa
The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East. One theory is that haplogroup T spread alongside J1 as herder-hunters in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic period, leaving the Zagros mountains between 9,000 and 10,000 BCE, reaching the Egypt and the southern Arabian peninsula around 7,000 BCE, then propagating from there to the Horn of Africa, and later on to Madagascar. However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia, and in Madagascar. This contrasts with other Near Eastern haplogroups like G2a and J2, which are conspicuously absent from East Africa, and rare in the Arabian peninsula. Nowadays, T1a subclades dating from the Neolithic found in East Africa include Y16247 (downstream of CTS2214) and Y16897. Other subclades dating from the Bronze Age (see below) are present as well, such as Y15711 and Y21004, both downstream of CTS2214."

Please note the emphasized parts.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

"Nowadays, the highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is observed in Northeast Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer branches like M281, V6 or V92. This suggests that E1b1b may indeed have appeared in East Africa, then expanded north until the Levant. Nevertheless, many lineages now found among the Ethiopians and Somalians appear to have come from the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. This includes some E1b1b subclades like V22 (12,000 years old) and V32 (10,000 years old), but also undeniably Near Eastern lineages like T1a-CTS2214 and J1-L136."

The T1a-CTS2214 in Somalia is listed as Bronze age. Bronze age for the Near East is c. 3300–1200 BC and it looks like we have actual subclades to look for.

 

[anonimo]

We were discussing migrations, not Y DNA specifically. If you don't think MtDNA is worthy of study in that regard, then check this:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

"Haplogroup T emerged from haplogroup K, the ancestor of most of the Eurasian haplogroups (L, N, O, P, Q, R and T), some time between 45,000 and 35,000 years ago. The vast majority of modern members of haplogroup T belong to the T1a branch, which developed during the late glacial period, between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago, possibily in the vicinity of the Iranian Plateau.

Although haplogroup T is more common today in East Africa than anywhere else, it almost certainly spread from the Fertile Crescent with the rise of agriculture. Indeed, the oldest subclades and the greatest diversity of T is found in the Middle East, especially around the Fertile Crescent. Lazaridis et al. (2016) identified one carrier of haplogroup T among the remains of the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site in Jordan. A T1a sample was also found in the Early Neolithic Linear Pottery (LBK) culture in Germany by Mathieson et al. (2015). By the end of the last glacial period, 12,000 years ago, haplogroup T had already differentiated into subclades such as T1a1a, T1a2, T1a3a and T1a3b. Deeper subclades developed in the Near East during the Early Neolithic period for several millennia before early farmers started expanding beyond the Near East.

Neolithic colonisation of the Arabian peninsula and East Africa
The higher frequency of T in East Africa would be due to a founder effect among Neolithic farmers or pastoralists from the Middle East. One theory is that haplogroup T spread alongside J1 as herder-hunters in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic period, leaving the Zagros mountains between 9,000 and 10,000 BCE, reaching the Egypt and the southern Arabian peninsula around 7,000 BCE, then propagating from there to the Horn of Africa, and later on to Madagascar. However, considering that J1 peaks in Yemen and Sudan, while T1 is most common in southern Egypt, Eritrea and Somalia, the two may not necessarily have spread together. They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia, and in Madagascar. This contrasts with other Near Eastern haplogroups like G2a and J2, which are conspicuously absent from East Africa, and rare in the Arabian peninsula. Nowadays, T1a subclades dating from the Neolithic found in East Africa include Y16247 (downstream of CTS2214) and Y16897. Other subclades dating from the Bronze Age (see below) are present as well, such as Y15711 and Y21004, both downstream of CTS2214."

Please note the emphasized parts.

Bronze age for the Near East is c. 3300–1200 BC. Looks like we have actual subclades to look for.

Lesson 14: mtDNA Tree

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is most often associated with deep ancestral origins since it mutates (changes) very slowly over time. Like Y-DNA haplogroups, mtDNA also has haplogroup designations. However, the letters for Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup designations do not correspond to each other. A 'K' in Y-DNA does not have the same ancestral origins as a 'K' in mtDNA.

https://isogg.org/wiki/DNA_newbie_educational_components

What was the point of your previous post? What is the relevance of referencing MTDNA Haplogroup T in a discussion about Somali Y-DNA haplogroup T? F-All!

At least you got it right this time by posting material that is relevant to the discussion we are having. Nonetheless, the Eupedia article does not settle the debate because it hypothesises. Let us not the jump the gun, there is nothing novel about the ideas propagated in this Eupedia article, and they are yet to be proven true.

 

[Young Popeye]

How are the Samaale founding myths ony 800 years old? Based on what source? If I am not mistaken, the first written text to reference Somalis was the Glorious Victories of Amde Seyon (14th century). Didn't they also field thousands of troops in the early 16th century during the Adal-Ethiopian wars? I doubt they were formed in the 13th century as the math does not add up and to argue otherwise would be illogical.

The routes taken by my haplogroup T ancestor could be North via Egypt or East via the Indian Ocean/Red Sea. As things stand, I think it is safe to say we are non the wiser as we possess theories but not absolute facts.

first reference was during 15th century Yeshaq not Amda seyon infact during the amda seyon reign it was the harla fighting the habasha

 

[anonimo]

first reference was during 15th century Yeshaq not Amda seyon infact during the amda seyon reign it was the harla fighting the habasha

I stand corrected. Somalis were mentioned in a hymn celebrating the military exploits of Yeshaq in the early 15th century. Got Amde Seyon mixed up with Yeshaq.

 

[Grant]

Lesson 14: mtDNA Tree

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is most often associated with deep ancestral origins since it mutates (changes) very slowly over time. Like Y-DNA haplogroups, mtDNA also has haplogroup designations. However, the letters for Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroup designations do not correspond to each other. A 'K' in Y-DNA does not have the same ancestral origins as a 'K' in mtDNA.

https://isogg.org/wiki/DNA_newbie_educational_components

What was the point of your previous post? What is the relevance of referencing MTDNA Haplogroup T in a discussion about Somali Y-DNA haplogroup T? F-All!

At least you got it right this time by posting material that is relevant to the discussion we are having. Nonetheless, the Eupedia article does not settle the debate because it hypothesises. Let us not the jump the gun, there is nothing novel about the ideas propagated in this Eupedia article, and they are yet to be proven true.

I remember not that long ago when Somalis were figured at 85% B1b1b, 5% Arab whatever and 10% subSaharan. Now, here's Cruciani:

https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup...3la9lX3pPA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUCZBIA4LVPAVW3Q

"Somali

52.17 % E-M78, 4.35 % E-V22, 47.83 % E-V32"

(This adds to 104.35%. Ha!) It also looks like he's only testing Samaales; there should be Minorities in there if it was random.

Another study, of 201 random Somalis:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15756297

"In Somalis, 14 Y chromosome haplogroups were identified including E3b1 (77.6%) and K2 (10.4%). The haplogroup E3b1 with the rare DYS19-11 allele (also called the E3b1 cluster gamma) was found in 75.1% of male Somalis, and 70.6% of Somali Y chromosomes were E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12, DYS437-14, DYS438-11 and DYS393-13."

I understand your frustration with this random testing and desire to wait for more clan-specific data. K2 is the Australoid haplotype. What is that doing in there at 10%? If the Dir are all T, that is a significant population that will again drop the percentage of E. So the testing and data are all suspect.

Still. Seventy plus years after the atomic bomb they finally "proved" Einstein's theory. That they did not originally have proof, did not stop the development of the bomb. They had indications and they followed their noses.

Here is what we have:

"They might instead have spread as separate nomadic tribes of herders who colonised the Red Sea region during the Neolithic, a period than spanned over several millennia. Nevertheless both are found in all the Arabian peninsula, all the way from Egypt to Somalia, and in Madagascar. This contrasts with other Near Eastern haplogroups like G2a and J2, which are conspicuously absent from East Africa, and rare in the Arabian peninsula. Nowadays, T1a subclades dating from the Neolithic found in East Africa include Y16247 (downstream of CTS2214) and Y16897. Other subclades dating from the Bronze Age (see below) are present as well, such as Y15711 and Y21004, both downstream of CTS2214."

What we lack here are clans and percentages as you say, but what we have says the Dir are a great place to start. Most of the Somali T is bronze age, meaning it is too recent to have been part of the B1b1b migration and is from the north. The mt-T data gives very similar origin and background information, but shows possibly less penetration into Africa. The Dir seem to be a genuine anomaly, definitely deserving of further in-depth genetic study. The northern origin, by itself, is significant.

 

[anonimo]

Grant

It is too early to estimate what percentage of Somalis are haplogroup T. It is present among other Somali clans, albeit at lower percentages. Nonetheless, I agree with you that as things stand, Haplogroup T appears to be synonymous with Dir subclans due to the fact that it is heavily found in Northern subclans like the Ciise and Samaroon or South-Central ones like my own Surre subclan. That cannot just be purely conincidental but I still believe in adopting a wait and see approach. Furthermore, it also appears to have a significant presence among the Isaaq clan that has been traditionally considered a Dir subclan by other Somalis even though the majority of its clan members believe they belong to the Bani Hashim Arab Clan. My reserved opinion is that it will not pass the 30% mark.

It is not yet known whether the Somali haplogroup T is from the bronze age. I have yet to see a study or private individual test results confirming the above the statement. In contrary, Y16897 appears to have a presence among Somalis. The STR's of HG-T Somalis on FTDNA were identified as belonging to the Y16897.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=yresults

This would indicate that the rest of the Somali Haplogroup T carriers identified in the Danish study as being the descendants of a relatively recent common ancestor are also Y16897 because the STR's of one of the paper's (Hallenberg/Sanchez) Haplogroup T carriers closely matches the guys tested on FTDNA.

 

[Grant]

Grant

It is too early to estimate what percentage of Somalis are haplogroup T. It is present among other Somali clans, albeit at lower percentages. Nonetheless, I agree with you that as things stand, Haplogroup T appears to be synonymous with Dir subclans due to the fact that it is heavily found in Northern subclans like the Ciise and Samaroon or South-Central ones like my own Surre subclan. That cannot just be purely conincidental but I still believe in adopting a wait and see approach. Furthermore, it also appears to have a significant presence among the Isaaq clan that has been traditionally considered a Dir subclan by other Somalis even though the majority of its clan members believe they belong to the Bani Hashim Arab Clan. My reserved opinion is that it will not pass the 30% mark.

It is not yet known whether the Somali haplogroup T is from the bronze age. I have yet to see a study or private individual test results confirming the above the statement. In contrary, Y16897 appears to have a presence among Somalis. The STR's of HG-T Somalis on FTDNA were identified as belonging to the Y16897.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-K2/default.aspx?section=yresults

This would indicate that the rest of the Somali Haplogroup T carriers identified in the Danish study as being the descendants of a relatively recent common ancestor are also Y16897 because the STR's of one of the paper's (Hallenberg/Sanchez) Haplogroup T carriers closely matches the guys tested on FTDNA.

Anonimo,

This is from your link:

"N89672 Somalia T-M70 13 23 15 10 13-15 11 12 11 14 14 29
413795 Habar Yonis (rer caynaanshe) b.1720 d.1780 Somalia T-M70 13 23 15 10 13-16 11 12 11 14 14 29
202976 H Yoonis Somalia T-PAGES00002 13 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 11 14 14 29 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 35 11-13-15-17 10 10 22-24 15 15 15 16 37-37 11 9 11 8 17-17 8 11 10 8 11 9 14 20-20 18 10 12 12 14 8 11 22 19 15 11 12 13 11 11 12 11
224910 Mohamoud Somalia T-Y16897 13 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 11 14 14 29 17 9-9 11 11 25 14 19 35 11-13-15-17 10 10 22-24 15 15 15 16 37-38 11 9"

I read two T-M70s, one T-PAGES00002, and only one T-Y16897. Two are Habar Yonis and two are not identified by clan. The T-Y16897 is not identified by clan. The folks living in the West of England are not identified by clan.

I just learned that "T" was known as K2 until 2008, so the 10% in that study I quoted in my last post may be real after all. Isn't that a hoot. I have so far not yet been able to find anything more on the two critical bronze-age markers Y15711 and Y21004, but clearly, Y16897 is not all there is. I think you're the one jumping to conclusions on the Neolithic T, but we DO need more work on the Dir.

 

[anonimo]

Anonimo,

This is from your link:

"N89672 Somalia T-M70 13 23 15 10 13-15 11 12 11 14 14 29
413795 Habar Yonis (rer caynaanshe) b.1720 d.1780 Somalia T-M70 13 23 15 10 13-16 11 12 11 14 14 29
202976 H Yoonis Somalia T-PAGES00002 13 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 11 14 14 29 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 35 11-13-15-17 10 10 22-24 15 15 15 16 37-37 11 9 11 8 17-17 8 11 10 8 11 9 14 20-20 18 10 12 12 14 8 11 22 19 15 11 12 13 11 11 12 11
224910 Mohamoud Somalia T-Y16897 13 23 15 10 13-17 11 12 11 14 14 29 17 9-9 11 11 25 14 19 35 11-13-15-17 10 10 22-24 15 15 15 16 37-38 11 9"

I read two T-M70s, one T-PAGES00002, and only one T-Y16897. Two are Habar Yonis and two are not identified by clan. The T-Y16897 is not identified by clan. The folks living in the West of England are not identified by clan.


I just learned that "T" was known as K2 until 2008, so the 10% in that study I quoted in my last post may be real after all. Isn't that a hoot.

Do I have to spell it out for you? All those individuals that are grouped with Mohamoud are T-Y16897 as evident in how they all come under the label Alpha-0-K (was Alpha-3-K) T-Y16897 (Z19963-).

In my previous post, I was trying to put across to you that the Neolithic T-Y16897 is found among Somalis, and that the haplogroup T found in Sanchez's et al study is T-Y16897 by default. They calculated that the Haplogroup T cluster among the Somalis tested in Denmark is the result of a founder effect that occured roughly 2000 years ago, this illustrates that they are T-Y16897 by default because T-Y16897 is evaluated to be 8600ybp. For example, my STR's are an exact match for one of the Haplogroup T individuals in the Sanchez study, I therefore belong to T-Y16897 because the Y-16897 Haplogroup T STR's of a Somali individual on FTDNA is found in Sanchez's Haplogroup T samples. Anyone else who matches with one of the Haplogroup T STR's found in the Sanchez et al study is also T-Y16897 unless a y-full test proves otherwise.

T-Y16897 is a sub sub subclade of T-M70. T-PAGES00002 is now a redundant label. T-M70 is still in use. You are not familiar with how subclades are labelled yet you base your illogical counter arguments on a misunderstanding of what they represent. Why do you think I did not elaborate on your assumption that K2 was Australoid? Please familiarise yourself with the basics.

https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html
https://www.yfull.com/tree/T/

I have so far not yet been able to find anything more on the two critical bronze-age markers Y15711 and Y21004, but clearly, Y16897 is not all there is. I think you're the one jumping to conclusions on the Neolithic T, but we DO need more work on the Dir.

I was not jumping to any conclusions but demonstrating to you how there is strong evidence that the Neolithic Y16897 has a presence among Somalis, particularly among those sampled in the Danish study. If we had access to the STR's of the Djiboutian and Dire Dawan papers, the picture would definitely have been clearer in regard to the subclade/subclades found among Dir clan members.

 

[Grant]

I have never argued against the presence of the Neolitihc T. But it's the Bronze Age T that has me most interested.

This leaves me confused:

"They calculated that the Haplogroup T cluster among the Somalis tested in Denmark is the result of a founder effect that occured roughly 2000 years ago, this illustrates that they are T-Y16897 by default because T-Y16897 is evaluated to be 8600ybp."

My understanding is that 2000 YA (equals CE) is too late for the Bronze Age and 8600 ybp is Neolithic. Look again at my article that says that rather than a founder effect, it could have been individual Neolithic tribes that settled the Red Sea Hills before moving south and east.

I will follow your advice when I get back. That subclade stuff is really confusing. Am taking a break from my computer for ten days or so.

 

[anonimo]

I have never argued against the presence of the Neolitihc T. But it's the Bronze Age T that has me most interested.

This leaves me confused:

"They calculated that the Haplogroup T cluster among the Somalis tested in Denmark is the result of a founder effect that occured roughly 2000 years ago, this illustrates that they are T-Y16897 by default because T-Y16897 is evaluated to be 8600ybp."

Allow me to simplify it for you.

Genetically speaking, the Somali HG-T cluster in the Danish study descend from a fairly recent ancestor who lived roughly 2000 YA. Hence, if the descendants of that ancestor are T-Y16897, then he is also T-Y16897 because it is not a subclade unique to him as it has a much older foundation. An SNP might be identified that distinguishes this Somali cluster from other T-Y16897 populations that have been identified in Europe and the Middle East. However, a y-full test would be required to establish this.

My understanding is that 2000 YA (equals CE) is too late for the Bronze Age and 8600 ybp is Neolithic. Look again at my article that says that rather than a founder effect, it could have been individual Neolithic tribes that settled the Red Sea Hills before moving south and east.

I will follow your advice when I get back. That subclade stuff is really confusing. Am taking a break from my computer for ten days or so.

Eupedia is a bit like Wikipedia; not bad as a starting point when curious about a subject but don't expect everything that is written there to be authoritative in nature.

All the best Grant.