Jarahoroto (ancient) town in Awdal named after King and Queen of the Harla people

[anonimo]

Anonimo,

I don't think I said much about V-32. We are agreed that studies out of context have little value. This study includes but does not rely on the Denmark bit that you quoted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

Population Language Location Members/Sample size Percentage Source
Notes
Dir (clan) Issa/Gadabuursi Somali (East Cushitic) Djibouti 24/24 100% [17] The main sub-clans of the Dir (clan) in Djibouti are the Issa and Gadabuursi. Also, T1a-M70 has been found in only 1 sample belonging to a member of the Hawiye clan (1/1) and in 0/9 (0%) samples belonging to the Isaaq clan.
Northern Dir tribes Northern Somali (East Cushitic) Dire Dawa 14/17 82.4% [16] Dir sub-clans of Dire Dawa are Issa, Gurgura and Gadabuursi.
Somalis (Djibouti) Somali (East Cushitic) Djibouti 30/40 75% [196] This sample is only 25% E-M215. Clan not specified.
Anteony Antemoro (Plateau Malagasy) old Antemoro Kingdom 22/37 59.5% [197] The Anteony are the descendants of aristocrats, from whom the Antemoro king is chosen. Can be grouped into the Silamo, because they have the right to undertake the ritual slaughter of animals (Sombily)
Northern Dir tribes and Afars Northern Somali and Afar(Cushitic) Djibouti 30/54 56.6% [198] Mixed sample of Somali and Afar individuals.
Somalis (Ethiopia) Somali (East Cushitic) Shilavo (woreda) (Ogaden) 5/10 50% [17] The geographic location of this Ethiopia sample as seen in Fig.1.
Aushi Aushi Zambia 1/2 50% [199]
Toubou Toubou Chad
31% [200] All belonging to the T1a-PF5662 subclade
Afars Afar language (East Cushitic) Djibouti 5/20 25% [17]
Akie Akie people (Nilotic) Tanzania 3/13 23.1% [Hirbo et al.] Akie people have remnants of a Cushitic language
Somalis Somali (East Cushitic) Jijiga (Ogaden) 19/83 22.9% [16] Jijiga Somalis.
Arabs from Somalia Somali (East Cushitic) immigrants in Yemen 7/33 21.2% [201]
Lemba Venda and Shona (Bantu) South Africa 6/34 17.6% [2] Exclusively belong to T1a2* (old T1b*). Possible recent founder effect. Low frequency of T1a2 has been observed in Bulgarian Jews and Turks but is not found in other Jewish communities. Y-str Haplotypes close to some T1a2 Armenians.
Rangi Rangi Language (Bantu) Tanzania 5/32 15.6% [Hirbo et al.]
Multiple ethnicity - Somalia 15/105 14.3% [202][203]
Iraqw Iraqw language (Cushitic) Tanzania 6/47 12.8% [Hirbo et al.]
Wachagga Kichagga (Niger-Congo) Dār as-Salām 3/24 12.5% [164] Mixed with Rift Southern Cushites.
Somali Somali (Cushitic) immigrants to Norway 12/104 11.5% [204]
Bench Bench(northern Omotic) Bench Maji Zone 14/126 11.4% [16]
Kores (Cushitic) SNNP 2/18 11.1% [16]
Oromo Afaan Oromo language (Cushitic) Oromiyaa 1/9 11.1% [205]
Fulbe Fula northern Cameroon 3/27 11.1% [206][207]
Gorowa Gorowa language (Cushitic) Tanzania 2/19 10.5% [Hirbo et al.]
Somali Somali (Cushitic) immigrants to Denmark 21/201 10.4% [208][7]
Upper Egyptians Egyptian Arabic Luxor Governorate 3/29 10.3% [23][209]
Kontas Konta language (Omotic) Konta special woreda 11/107 10.3% [16]
Rendille Rendille language (Cushitic) Marsabit County 3/31 9.7% [Hirbo et al.]
Datogs Rendille language (Cushitic) Tanzania 3/31 9.7% [210]
Gewadas Gewada language (east Cushitic) SNNP 11/116 9.5% [16]
Antalaotra Antemoro (Plateau Malagasy) old Antemoro Kingdom 4/43 9.3% [197] The Antalaotra are in charge of the magical and religious domains; they have the ability to read and write Sorabe. Can be grouped into the Silamo, because they have the right to undertake the ritual slaughter of animals (Sombily)
Upper Egyptians Egyptian Arabic Aswan Governorate 1/11 9.1% [211]
Subiya Subiya/Kuhane (Bantu) Zambia 1/11 9% [199]
Upper Egyptians Egyptian Arabic Assiut Governorate 6/70 8.6% [211]
Konsos (Semitic) Konso special woreda 2/24 8.3% [16]
Somali Somali (Cushitic) immigrants to Sweden 12/147 8.2% [212]
Arabs and Berbers Egyptian Arabic and Siwi Lower Egypt 12/147 8.2% [18]
Upper Egyptians Egyptian Arabic Sohag Governorate 4/52 7.7% [211]
Egyptians Erythraic (Cushitic) Egypt 7/92 7.6% [203][205] If the K* sample is M184+ then 8.7%
Oromo (Semitic) SNNP 2/28 7.1% [199]
Tigrayans Tigrinya (South Semitic) SNNP 2/30 6.7% [16]
Dirashas Dirasha (east Cushitic) Dirashe special woreda 5/79 6.3% [16]
Canarians Canarian Spanish Tenerife 11/178 6.2%

Omo Valley Omotic languages Ethiopia 6/98 6.1% [199]
Kordofanians Kordofanian Kurdufan 4/69 5.8% [193]
Upper Egyptians Egyptian Arabic Qena Governorate 3/52 5.8% [211]
Tuareg Tuareg (Berber) Gorom-Gorom 1/18 5.6% [213]
Afars Afar (East Cushitic) Afar Region 6/111 5.4% [16]
Ethiopians Ethiopian languages Ethiopia 4/74 5.4% [173]
Mashiles Mashile language (Cushitic) SNNP 7/130 5.4% [16]
Gurages Gurage languages (South Semitic) SNNP 6/118 5.1% [16]
Canarians Canarian Spanish Gran Canaria 4/78 5.1% [199]
Oromo Afaan Oromo language (Cushitic) Oromiyaa 4/78 5.1% [199]
Oromo Afaan Oromo language (Cushitic) Adis Abeba 2/40 5% [199]
Turu Nyaturu (Bantu) Tanzania 1/20 5% [210]
Moroccan Jews Haketia (Romance) Israel 1/20 5% [214]
Gedeos Gedeo (east Cushitic) SNNP 6/122 4.9% [16]
Wairak Iraqw (Cushitic) Tanzania 2/41 4.9% [18]
Western Libyans Libyan Arabic (Semitic) Tripoli region 7/142 4.9% [215]
[216]

Tunisians Tunisian Arabic (Semitic) Sfax 5/105 4.8% [217]
Libyans Libyan Arabic (Semitic) Tripoli area 3/63 4.8% [218]
Kanuri Kanuri Cameroon 1/21 4.8% [Hirbo et al.]
Iraqw[219] Iraqw (Cushitic) Tanzania 2/43 4.7%

Yems Yemsa (Omotic) SNNP 5/107 4.7% [16]
Jews (Semitic) Ethiopia 1/22 4.5% [17]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will notice multiple Somali studies, along with sample sizes and locations. The 77-85% in Somalis is E1b1b1a1 (M78), not V-32, which is a specific subclade. The clans are clearly confederacies, with the Isaaq even split between T and E.

There appear to have been multiple admixture events bringing T from the north, but the most recent work places one at 3000 YA, associated with the beginnings of Semitic languages in the Horn.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalis

"According to Y chromosome studies by Sanchez et al. (2005), Cruciani et al. (2004, 2007), the Somalis are paternally closely related to other Afro-Asiatic-speaking groups in Northeast Africa.[167][168][169] Besides comprising the majority of the Y-DNA in Somalis, the E1b1b (formerly E3b) haplogroup also makes up a significant proportion of the paternal DNA of Ethiopians, Sudanese, Egyptians, Berbers, North African Arabs, as well as many Mediterranean populations.[168][170] Sanchez et al. (2005) observed the M78 (E1b1b1a1) subclade of E1b1b in about 77.6% of their Somali male samples.[167] According to Cruciani et al. (2007), the presence of this subhaplogroup in the Horn region may represent the traces of an ancient migration from Egypt/Libya.[169]

After haplogroup E1b1b, the second most frequently occurring Y-DNA haplogroup among Somalis is the West Asian haplogroup T (M184).[171] The clade is observed in more than 10% of Somali males generally,[167] with a frequency peak of 82.4% among Somalis in Dire Dawa.[172] Haplogroup T, like haplogroup E1b1b, is also typically found among other populations of Northeast Africa, the Maghreb, the Near East and the Mediterranean.[173][174]"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The background T in the large number of southern and non-Somali groups is typically around or less that 10% and probably does represent an ancient migration or influx from coastal merchants. But scores in the 82-100% range would seem to be something else. I think it is time to look a lot more closely at T, which is not likely to have been part of the migration from Egypt/Libya at these high levels, and is clearly concentrated in the area of Aksumite/Himyarite influence in the North.

IMO it is not at all too early to start looking at this stuff. New research areas are already indicated.

The clan breakdown of the samples used has not been given in any of the E1B1B figures you have provided apart from the Djiboutian one, it is therefore difficult to assume that they are reliable. I believe E1b1b, specifically E-V32, is the dominant lineage among Somalis but we are in the dark in regard to percentage stats.

It is not known if T accompanied J during the Semitic settlement of the Horn 3000 years ago. It is possible but bare in mind T has an older presence in Africa. I agree with you that its high percentage among Northern Somali clans, and Dir subclans in general, might indicate that it arrived in the Horn as a result of an ancient West Asian migratory event. However, until more research is conducted into HG-T subclades, we are stuck with no concrete evidence to support such an argument.

 

[Canuck]

The clan breakdown of the samples used has not been given in any of the E1B1B figures you have provided apart from the Djiboutian one, it is therefore difficult to assume that they are reliable. I believe E1b1b, specifically E-V32, is the dominant lineage among Somalis but we are in the dark in regard to percentage stats.

It is not known if T accompanied J during the Semitic settlement of the Horn 3000 years ago. It is possible but bare in mind T has an older presence in Africa. I agree with you that its high percentage among Northern Somali clans, and Dir subclans in general, might indicate that it arrived in the Horn as a result of an ancient West Asian migratory event. However, until more research is conducted into HG-T subclades, we are stuck with no concrete evidence to support such an argument.

He will go Mumbo and jumbo till you forget what was the original post and question.

 

[anonimo]

He will go Mumbo and jumbo till you forget what was the original post and question.

Grant is just engaging in harmless conjecture, there is no need to feel threatened by him. I doubt he is a Somaliphobe.

 

[Canuck]

Grant is just engaging in harmless conjecture, there is no need to feel threatened by him. I doubt he is a Somaliphobe.

You are good person but grant is missionary who wants to empower minority through changing our history. He is not qualified even to speak about Somali history. He lived in Somalia one year in 60s. And works in healthcare field but acting as expert in Somalia 'S history and people. The problem is that grant is misguiding the innocent readers.

 

[Young Popeye]

You are good person but grant is missionary who wants to empower minority through changing our history. He is not qualified even to speak about Somali history. He lived in Somalia one year in 60s. And works in healthcare field but acting as expert in Somalia 'S history and people. The problem is that grant is misguiding the innocent readers.

says the the phd holder of history in the region

 

[Canuck]

says the the phd holder of history in the region

Listen I lived in several countries in ME but I wouldn't go to their forums and argued with them in their history and tries to alter their history for my own agenda. Also, you should focus on your people not us.

 

[Grant]

The clan breakdown of the samples used has not been given in any of the E1B1B figures you have provided apart from the Djiboutian one, it is therefore difficult to assume that they are reliable. I believe E1b1b, specifically E-V32, is the dominant lineage among Somalis but we are in the dark in regard to percentage stats.

It is not known if T accompanied J during the Semitic settlement of the Horn 3000 years ago. It is possible but bare in mind T has an older presence in Africa. I agree with you that its high percentage among Northern Somali clans, and Dir subclans in general, might indicate that it arrived in the Horn as a result of an ancient West Asian migratory event. However, until more research is conducted into HG-T subclades, we are stuck with no concrete evidence to support such an argument.

When you have this much T in the Dir, unless you're looking for other results than I am looking for, I'm not sure you need subclade or subclan information. The early T only exists at relatively low levels. The source at this level has to be closer to the original source, i.e. the north, towards the northern Mediterranean basin and the Zagros mountains, Perhaps you should read back through Xaagi-Cagmadigtee's posts. His private data has not been published, but I find it credible, given the data that has been published.

Of course T comes from a West Asian migratory event. Whether early or late, that is the source.

"Notes
Dir (clan) Issa/Gadabuursi Somali (East Cushitic) Djibouti 24/24 100% [17] The main sub-clans of the Dir (clan) in Djibouti are the Issa and Gadabuursi. Also, T1a-M70 has been found in only 1 sample belonging to a member of the Hawiye clan (1/1) and in 0/9 (0%) samples belonging to the Isaaq clan.
Northern Dir tribes Northern Somali (East Cushitic) Dire Dawa 14/17 82.4% [16] Dir sub-clans of Dire Dawa are Issa, Gurgura and Gadabuursi.
Somalis (Djibouti) Somali (East Cushitic) Djibouti 30/40 75% [196] This sample is only 25% E-M215. Clan not specified.
Northern Dir tribes and Afars Northern Somali and Afar(Cushitic) Djibouti 30/54 56.6% [198] Mixed sample of Somali and Afar individuals.
Somalis (Ethiopia) Somali (East Cushitic) Shilavo (woreda) (Ogaden) 5/10 50% [17] The geographic location of this Ethiopia sample as seen in Fig.1."

 

[Rooble]

@Grant ignore Canuck she's a psycho

 

[Canuck]

@Grant ignore Canuck she's a psycho

And you are House slave for habashi

 

[Prince Abubu]

The clan breakdown of the samples used has not been given in any of the E1B1B figures you have provided apart from the Djiboutian one, it is therefore difficult to assume that they are reliable. I believe E1b1b, specifically E-V32, is the dominant lineage among Somalis but we are in the dark in regard to percentage stats.

It is not known if T accompanied J during the Semitic settlement of the Horn 3000 years ago. It is possible but bare in mind T has an older presence in Africa. I agree with you that its high percentage among Northern Somali clans, and Dir subclans in general, might indicate that it arrived in the Horn as a result of an ancient West Asian migratory event. However, until more research is conducted into HG-T subclades, we are stuck with no concrete evidence to support such an argument.

I doubt that very much, seeing as T is found all over Africa and in Eastern/South-eastern Africa in particular. If anything, it probably arrived slightly before E1b1b and was eventually displaced.

 

[Grant]

I doubt that very much, seeing as T is found all over Africa and in Eastern/South-eastern Africa in particular. If anything, it probably arrived slightly before E1b1b and was eventually displaced.

It seems certain that there were multiple migrations. "Early" would be 7-21K YA, "late" would be 3000 YA. "Based on this distribution of IACs across HOA populations, the most parsimonious order of origin in or migration into the region is Ethiopic – Nilo-Saharan – Ethio-Somali – Arabian – Eurasian – Niger-Congo, with the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo gene flow probably coming from the west/southwest and the Ethio-Somali, Arabian, and Eurasian IACs likely arriving from the east/north."

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393

"In order to evaluate the hypothesis that there were two or more distinct episodes of non-African admixture in the HOA, with the Ethio-Somali admixture occurring during an earlier episode, we conducted four analyses. First, we looked at the distribution of IACs among HOA populations from the K = 12 ADMIXTURE results. If there have been successive episodes of admixture into a culturally diverse region, we expect that different populations will have different histories of admixture [60], [71]. Over time, admixed ancestry will be transmitted throughout the region via intra-regional gene flow, including into populations that have no history of direct admixture. If admixture predates modern population divisions, contemporary populations may carry admixed ancestry from a common admixed ancestor. In the HOA, this suggests that the Ethiopic IAC has the deepest roots in the region, as it is present at appreciable frequencies in all populations (Figure 2, Table 2). Next, the Nilo-Saharan IAC is found in all but the Ari Blacksmiths. The Ethio-Somali IAC has the third broadest distribution, and is found in all Cushitic and Semitic speaking populations as well as the Omotic speaking Wolayta and Ari Cultivators, but not the Ari Blacksmiths. Arabian, Eurasian, and Niger-Congo IACs have successively narrower distributions in the HOA. Based on this distribution of IACs across HOA populations, the most parsimonious order of origin in or migration into the region is Ethiopic – Nilo-Saharan – Ethio-Somali – Arabian – Eurasian – Niger-Congo, with the Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo gene flow probably coming from the west/southwest and the Ethio-Somali, Arabian, and Eurasian IACs likely arriving from the east/north."

 

[anonimo]

When you have this much T in the Dir, unless you're looking for other results than I am looking for, I'm not sure you need subclade or subclan information. The early T only exists at relatively low levels. The source at this level has to be closer to the original source, i.e. the north, towards the northern Mediterranean basin and the Zagros mountains, Perhaps you should read back through Xaagi-Cagmadigtee's posts. His private data has not been published, but I find it credible, given the data that has been published.

Of course T comes from a West Asian migratory event. Whether early or late, that is the source.

"Notes
Dir (clan) Issa/Gadabuursi Somali (East Cushitic) Djibouti 24/24 100% [17] The main sub-clans of the Dir (clan) in Djibouti are the Issa and Gadabuursi. Also, T1a-M70 has been found in only 1 sample belonging to a member of the Hawiye clan (1/1) and in 0/9 (0%) samples belonging to the Isaaq clan.
Northern Dir tribes Northern Somali (East Cushitic) Dire Dawa 14/17 82.4% [16] Dir sub-clans of Dire Dawa are Issa, Gurgura and Gadabuursi.
Somalis (Djibouti) Somali (East Cushitic) Djibouti 30/40 75% [196] This sample is only 25% E-M215. Clan not specified.
Northern Dir tribes and Afars Northern Somali and Afar(Cushitic) Djibouti 30/54 56.6% [198] Mixed sample of Somali and Afar individuals.
Somalis (Ethiopia) Somali (East Cushitic) Shilavo (woreda) (Ogaden) 5/10 50% [17] The geographic location of this Ethiopia sample as seen in Fig.1."

Sorry, I should have been more precise by elaborating on the West Asian Migration route; I meant the Arabia route in my previous reply to you.

It would be foolish to jump to conclusions based on the limited data we have on haplogroup T among the Dir and Africa in general. I am confident that it has an old presence in the Horn of Africa otherwise the haplogroup T rich Dir clan would not have been commonly associated with the founding myths of the Samaale/Somali ethnic identity.

I insist on testing more subclans because it would provide us with an accurate picture of its concentration in the Dir clan. Subclade SNP's are also important because it allows scientists to better calculate the TMRCA (Time Of Most Common Recent Ancestor) and, more importantly, establishes whether they all descend from a common founding father. The evidence points towards a founder effect but a representative sample is required with more Southern/Ethiopian Dir subclans tested. Moreover, establishing the SNP of the Dir haplogroup T carriers would help us to compare who their closest relatives are, and hypothesise whether the ancient migration took place over the Levant or Arabia route.

 

[Professor]

well here on this very we have an white man trying to re-write our history going as far as to say thathat mogadishu was built by Persian and arabs. Providing more division between clans with the intention to attribute these old civilisations on the coast to foreigners. White men once again trying to justify that's africans can not establish any civilisation and that they must naturally be the result of an foriegn presence. WallahI somalis are pathetic ur history is being re-written just like berbers and North africans and no one cares

 

[anonimo]

I doubt that very much, seeing as T is found all over Africa and in Eastern/South-eastern Africa in particular. If anything, it probably arrived slightly before E1b1b and was eventually displaced.

It is not an established fact that T was brought to Africa in one migratory event. The Lemba and Madagascan haplogroup T carriers evince this.

Ina Adeer, one thing is for sure we are not newcomers. I just want to discover who our closest T relatives, finding this out would help resolve how we got to the Horn.

 

[Professor]

It is not an established fact that T was brought to Africa in one migratory event. The Lemba and Madagascan haplogroup T carriers evince this.

Ina Adeer, one thing is for sure we are not newcomers. I just want to discover who our closest T relatives, finding this out would help resolve how we got to the Horn.

couldn't there be a possibility that we always lived in the horn and those markers are just results of admixture.

 

[Grant]

Sorry, I should have been more precise by elaborating on the West Asian Migration route; I meant the Arabia route in my previous reply to you.

It would be foolish to jump to conclusions based on the limited data we have on haplogroup T among the Dir and Africa in general. I am confident that it has an old presence in the Horn of Africa otherwise the haplogroup T rich Dir clan would not have been commonly associated with the founding myths of the Samaale/Somali ethnic identity.

I insist on testing more subclans because it would provide us with an accurate picture of its concentration in the Dir clan. Subclade SNP's are also important because it allows scientists to better calculate the TMRCA (Time Of Most Common Recent Ancestor) and, more importantly, establishes whether they all descend from a common founding father. The evidence points towards a founder effect but a representative sample is required with more Southern/Ethiopian Dir subclans tested. Moreover, establishing the SNP of the Dir haplogroup T carriers would help us to compare who their closest relatives are, and hypothesise whether the ancient migration took place over the Levant or Arabia route.

You are looking to differentiate between routes. I am satisfied to know the route was from the north. For your purposes, you may have noted in my answer to Prince Abubu that the authors of the paper concluded the Eurasian IACs arrived from the north and east. The Samaale founding myths are only about 800 years old, so we are not looking at such a great depth of field that the older T would need to be involved. Certainly at these levels the older T has to be questioned.

 

[Canuck]

well here on this very we have an white man trying to re-write our history going as far as to say thathat mogadishu was built by Persian and arabs. Providing more division between clans with the intention to attribute these old civilisations on the coast to foreigners. White men once again trying to justify that's africans can not establish any civilisation and that they must naturally be the result of an foriegn presence. WallahI somalis are pathetic ur history is being re-written just like berbers and North africans and no one cares

Worst they are liking him and boot clapping for him.

 

[anonimo]

You are looking to differentiate between routes. I am satisfied to know the route was from the north. For your purposes, you may have noted in my answer to Prince Abubu that the authors of the paper concluded the Eurasian IACs arrived from the north and east. The Samaale founding myths are only about 800 years old, so we are not looking at such a great depth of field that the older T would need to be involved. Certainly at these levels the older T has to be questioned.

How are the Samaale founding myths ony 800 years old? Based on what source? If I am not mistaken, the first written text to reference Somalis was the Glorious Victories of Amde Seyon (14th century). Didn't they also field thousands of troops in the early 16th century during the Adal-Ethiopian wars? I doubt they were formed in the 13th century as the math does not add up and to argue otherwise would be illogical.

The routes taken by my haplogroup T ancestor could be North via Egypt or East via the Indian Ocean/Red Sea. As things stand, I think it is safe to say we are non the wiser as we possess theories but not absolute facts.

 

[anonimo]

couldn't there be a possibility that we always lived in the horn and those markers are just results of admixture.

There is no way of confirming how long Somalis have been in the Horn unless we come across y-dna from ancient burial grounds.

The answers you seek lie in the dead as our ancestors were not literate and left no clues. Makes you wish you were Greek, innit.

 

[Grant]

How are the Samaale founding myths ony 800 years old? Based on what source? If I am not mistaken, the first written text to reference Somalis was the Glorious Victories of Amde Seyon (14th century). Didn't they also field thousands of troops in the early 16th century during the Adal-Ethiopian wars? I doubt they were formed in the 13th century as the math does not add up and to argue otherwise would be illogical.

The routes taken by my haplogroup T ancestor could be North via Egypt or East via the Indian Ocean/Red Sea. As things stand, I think it is safe to say we are non the wiser as we possess theories but not absolute facts.

You make assumptions that I wouldn't. 14th century is still 1300's. 14 from 21 is only 700 years. To get the 800 years, you have to go back to aw Barkhadle, who is thought to have lived 12th-13th centuries, but whose dates are not exactly known. Sada Mire says 850 years ago. However you figure it, not ancient. Do you know any Samaale abtirsi that is older than 1200 AD?

I am not following some of your "logic". Even a thousand years is not ancient relative to T. The early migration was 7-21 KYA. Your Oromo example in the other thread would thin the bloodline, not push it to near 100%.