Is Xawaash seasoning somali originally or is it Yemeni?

[Magan95]

There is no need for mental gymnastics as it is pretty evident that they influenced us just like how Somali Xalwad is a borrowing from the Middle Eastern Xalwa, and Baasto is from Italian Pasta. The cuisine of the traditionally pastoral Maxa Tidhi Somalis was never as rich as that of the Yemen due to the simple fact that Yemenis are mainly a settled, seafaring folk who had greater cultural exchange with places as far apart as India and Indonesia. Their culinary culture is obviously richer as a result of these influences and their more settled urban culture. Tell me what quintessentially Somali dish found in nomadic or semi/nomadic Maxa Tidhi Somali settlements historically used Xawash? The use of Xawash is a relatively modern Reer Magaal innovation due to Yemeni influence on our culinary culture. It ain't no different to Macaawis which originates in Indonesia but was introduced to us via Yemen.

Are you full Somali?

Where are your sources apart from stating that Xawaij and Xawaash sound similar. How do you know they didn't borrow the word from us? You haven't given one evidence apart from "I feel like" or "I think."

You're mentally defeated for thinking we copied it from them without any EVIDENCe.

 

[anonimo]

Stop romanticizing Yemen. The majority of Yemen's population were ruralite, illiterate farmers who as recently as the 2010s barely knew Somalis existed. No cap. I know people who went to tuuloyin in northern Yemen as kids about a decade ago and they did not know what a Somali was. And a significant part of Yemen was always pastoral nomadic too, the place isn't as uniformly fertile as you think. Not to mention that all of the towns in Yemen were not even built by "normal" Yemenis as things like masonry, glasswork, blacksmithing, carpentry and jewelry work were the refuge of Yemeni Jews and essentially "low-caste", ostracized tribes like in Somalia.

Anyway, it was mainly the coastal town people who traded in all this and did what you are describing and it's not like Somalis didn't also have coastal towns on their side of the Gulf and engage in the same trade. The Gulf used to be called the Gulf of Berbera for a reason. You can argue that Arabs were more active than us at this but so what? You have this weird obsession with the pastoral part of Somali culture and practically like to revision that urbanism, seafaring and all this other stuff only started in the year 1800 or 1900 for Somalis and it is utterly ridiculous. Yes, pastoral nomads were always the majority like in Arabia. Have you seen most of places like Bari and Awdal? Of course that would be the case but it doesn't change that there have always been a minority contingent of Somalis practicing settling on the coast, fishing, seafaring, settled farming and agropastoralism wherever possible. I urge you to find me a single period in our coast's history using historical accounts and archaeological evidence where this was evidently not the case. You won't succeed.

That being said, I wouldn't be shocked if we were influenced by Yemenis in this case and it seems the case but your self-hatred really gets annoying to behold.

Who the eff was praising Yemenis, I simply made an argument that we borrowed Xawash from them. You got issues with them or Arabs, then go and see a shrink cos I ain't in the business of knocking down anyone to make myself feel better or listening to Calaacal.

As for the rest of your statement, spare me your judgmental BS sxb, we ended our debate in the DM so to each his own mate.

 

[Magan95]

Who the eff was praising Yemenis, I simply made an argument that we borrowed Xawash from them. You got issues with them or Arabs, then go and see a shrink cos I ain't in he business of knocking down anyone to make myself feel better or listening to Calaacal.

As for the rest of your statement, spare me your judgmental BS sxb, we ended our debate in the DM so to each his own mate.

Take your energy and put it into actually researching the root etymology of the word "Xawaash."

You can't make statements of "we borrowed it from them" without actually giving concrete evidence. It's okay, no one is perfect. I've made claims on here that have been proven wrong.

Everyone is ignorant on certain topics. Find your evidence and then we can have a logical discussion walal.

 

[anonimo]

Are you full Somali?

Where are your sources apart from stating that Xawaij and Xawaash sound similar. How do you know they didn't borrow the word from us? You haven't given one evidence apart from "I feel like" or "I think."

You're mentally defeated for thinking we copied it from them without any EVIDENCe.

No I am half Papua New Guinean and a quarter Malagasy.

 

[Shimbiris]

As for the rest of your statement, spare me your judgmental BS sxb, we ended our debate in the DM so to each his own mate.

We? I ended it when I realized you were dishonest and a self-hating individual. You wanted to keep going from what I remember but indeed, to each his own. I'm glad you essentially concede you can't back-up your claims.

Who the eff was praising Yemenis, I simply made an argument that we borrowed Xawash from them. You got issues with them or Arabs, then go and see a shrink cos I ain't in the business of knocking down anyone to make myself feel better or listening to Calaacal.

I have no issue with Arabs or Yemenis whatsoever. I see them as a cousin people and culture to our own which they very much are linguistically, genetically and culturally. I just dislike seeing someone strangely coon for them and yus their own people which is precisely what you always do. Praise and rave about the great Middle-East and rant about how Somalis are nothing. Don't pretend that is not exactly how you spoke to me in private.

 

[Magan95]

No I am half Papua New Guinean and a quarter Malagasy.

But you're 100% mentally defeated and I say this in the kindest way possible.

If multiple people are telling you this hunno please take this as constructive criticism, lick your wounds, and do some self reflection.

 

[anonimo]

We? I ended it when I realized you were dishonest and self-hating individual. You wanted to keep going from what I remember but indeed, to each his own. I'm glad you essentially concede you can't back-up your claims.



I have no issue with Arabs whatsoever. I see them as a cousin people and culture to our own which they very much are linguistically, genetically and culturally. I just dislike seeing someone strangely coon for them and yus their own people which is precisely what you always do. Praise and rave about the great Middle-East and rant about how Somalis are nothing. Don't pretend that is not exactly how you spoke to me in private.

Firstly, you dm'd me begging me to delete a historical source I shared yet I am the intellectually dishonest one? You also lied about Kirk's source regarding Somali ships and legged it because your BS was plain to see.

In comparison to Middle Easterners, they were not as culturally or materially advanced, I will definitely state that in public or private.

 

[anonimo]

But you're 100% mentally defeated and I say this in the kindest way possible.

If multiple people are telling you this hunno please take this as constructive criticism, lick your wounds, and do some self reflection.

Ok walaal. Anything else?

 

[Shimbiris]

Firstly, you dm'd me begging me to delete a historical source I shared yet I am the intellectually dishonest one? You also lied about Kirk's source regarding Somali ships and legged it because your BS was plain to see.

Can you also please prove the quote you shared and the one I shared are the same quote? If not, you spare me, saaxiib. They're clearly dated differently and worded differently. I really thought you were right until I looked at them closer and put it in spoilers as an offhand in case some complexed individual like you tried to derail the thread with some silly reply.

And I DM-ed you asking you to delete it because you were running into my thread with derailing BS theories that would mislead people. Apparently because one source said reer Bari started going as far as the Swahili coast after the 1850s or so it must've meant all Somalis only started then too and were never seafaring to the Swahili coast. Oh and it must have meant seafaring in general just started around the 1800s as you eventually also leapt to. (???) It's amazing you don't see how ridiculous these leaps were and all in service of your belief that Arabs and Indians are "superior". Even though I proved even your claim about the Swahili coast wrong plain as day in that thread. And don't be dishonest, walaal, you plainly misrepresented sources and lied during that DM conversation and you know it and it pissed me off and felt a waste of my time. I was genuinely expecting a fun exchange between two akhis and when I saw you were willing to lie I genuinely got pissed. Simple as. You even insultingly accused me of lying that a source existed regarding the Reer Maanyo when I did not in fact lie at all even though I myself was until then refraining from fully calling you out for your own apparent dishonesty.

In comparison to Middle Easterners, they were not as culturally or materially advanced, I will definitely state that in public or private.

"They were not as advanced" is fair and fine but you know full-well the kind of disgusting nonsense you were saying in our chat.

 

[anonimo]

Can you also please prove the quote you shared and the one I shared are the same quote? If not, you spare me, saaxiib. They're clearly dated differently and worded differently. I really thought you were right until I looked at them closer and put it in spoilers as an offhand in case some complexed individual like you tried to derail the thread with some silly reply.

And I DM-ed you asking you to delete it because you were running into my thread with derailing BS theories that would mislead people. Apparently because one source said reer Bari started going as far as the Swahili coast after the 1850s or so it must've meant all Somalis only started then too and were never seafaring to the Swahili coast. Oh and it must have meant seafaring in general just started around the 1800s as you eventually also leapt to. (???) It's amazing you don't see how ridiculous these leaps were and in all in service of your belief that Arabs and Indians are "superior". Even though I proved even your claim about the Swahili coast wrong plain as day in that thread. And don't be dishonest, walaal, you plainly misrepresented sources and lied during that DM conversation and you know it and it pissed me off and felt a waste of my time. I was genuinely expecting a fun exchange between two akhis and when I saw you were willing to lie I genuinely got pissed. Simple as.



"They were not as advanced" is fair and fine but you know full-well the kind of disgusting nonsense you were saying in our chat.

You know very well the quotes were deleted at your request so how can I provide them? Your words were that you did not want the Old Cadaan fella seeing that historical source I shared because he would use it in his arguments. Isn't it not intellectual cowardice to withhold information because it goes against one's narrative?

Regarding your second paragraph, hell yeah I used uncouth analogies, my aim was to rile your up your nationalistic tendencies when you lost your cool hence why I was aggressively ramming the point that you were trying to compare apples and oranges.

If I wanted to derail your thread further, I would have continued our debate in the main. I left it in the DM because it would be a futile exercise as I realised you are not in the business of seeking historical accuracy when you blatantly lied about Kirk's source about the Arabs ships docked in Marka. I owned up to my assumption, you slithered away like a snake when I asked you for sources and coughed up f*ck all.

 

[Shimbiris]

You know very well the quotes were deleted at your request so how can I provide them? Your words were that you did not want the Old Cadaan fella seeing that historical source I shared, it is all in the DMs we exchanged bro because he would use it in his arguments. Isn't it not intellectual cowardice to withhold information because it goes against one's narrative?

Indeed cos it would unnecessarily add fuel to his nonsense that only Bajunis could sail off the Somali coast, which you know is a complete lie, and it was indeed misleading. Also, I had no idea our chat would be lost like that by me leaving. I had never left a DM with someone until then. Just thought it would prevent you from messaging me as I was getting sick of getting notifications after I noticed you actually lying to me and being rude. But again, there you go with the accusations that I had some ulterior motives other than what I am clearly stating just like when you claimed I made up that source I did not in fact make up, as you know.

Regarding your second paragraph, hell yeah I used uncouth analogies, my aim was to rile your up your nationalistic tendencies when you lost your cool hence why I was aggressively ramming the point that you were trying to compare apples and oranges.

So you admit that while I was remaining respectful toward you, you deliberately tried to be underhanded and "rile me up"? Okay, saaxiib. That's good to know. And I was not comparing apples to oranges. Arabians and Somalis are in fact extremely similar in conditions and culture, the main difference being Arabians' greater proximity to the Fertile Crescent and more willingness to use ajanabis, like Mesopotamians, as crafts people in place of their own equivalent to the gabooye. I acknowledged this plainly but you had to go on weird tirades about shirtless Oromo women and calling people savages. Another reason I had enough of talking to you.

If I wanted to derail your thread further, I would have continued our debate in the main. I left it in the DM because it would be a futile exercise as I realised you are not in the business of seeking historical accuracy when you blatantly lied about Kirk's source about the Arabs ships docked in Marka. I owned up to my assumption, you slithered away like a snake when I asked you for sources and coughed up f*ck all.

I did and do not accuse you of intentionally trying to derail the thread. Simply stated your post could do so and was misleading. But along that vein, I see you are again accusing me of nefarious intentions. I left our chat because I noticed how rude and dishonest you were being and wasn't having it when I was coming at you with respect myself. No other reason and don't waste my time with any accusations otherwise.

I also already proved your claim about Kirk wrong, saaxiib. My quote and yours are not the same quote. They are at different times and in yours he explicitly says they are Arab and foreign vessels whereas in mine he says no such thing but that they are native. What is so hard about this to understand? I also coughed up the source about the Reer Maanyo both in chat and in the thread. Can you disprove both? Can you prove the two Kirk quotes are the same? It's there in the thread now. Please feel free to chime in whenever you wish but if not spare me these accusations of me being scared of you. Please, ma nigga...

 

[nicki minaj]

Why do y’all get so weird and aggressively arrogant when it comes to acknowledging the foreign elements in Somali culture? You guys sound like you’re insecure.
I love how no one in this thread will admit to the fact that some Somalis literally call it HAWAJI too (so they are the same thing).
_________

negro Yemenis copied many thing from us including our Dirac.

they took coffee from us in the horn. Wallahi you need some dhig. Chances are they copied it from us since we were deep in the spice trade to the point that the Greeks thought cinnamon came from us.

^^
I don’t think coffee is a good example for your point because…

1. The Yemen theory is more of a Western lie/mistake rather than a Arab one. Yemen doesn’t actually have a traditional origin story for discovering coffee, these tale(s) are based off of a centuries old European oriental literature (Ex. India also has one that sounds exactly like the Yemeni one).
2. Most important point, there’s actual EVIDENCE that it came from south-western Ethiopians (Ethiopia is literally one of the few places on earth who developed an independent agricultural revolution. Those being coffee, millets, and sorghums).

…but there’s 0 evidence that stuff like Dirac and Xawaash originated in Somalia, the fact that those words stem from Arabic doesn’t help your case at all. Look, I don’t view Arabs in a positive light but I can’t run away from the fact that we do have influence from these people. The introduction and expansionism of Islam to East Africa is a HUGE reason for this, religion is a trojan horse for cultural assimilation (or something along those lines).

Greeks never traded and or claimed that cinnamon came from us (or any part of Africa), some of you need to learn the art of critically engaging with what you read. Random people write a lot of crap about us Somalis, whether they sound positive or not, you should always be careful about the stuff you read online and make sure they are backed with reliable evidence.
Somalis really do love regurgitating revisionism and sooner or later this shit will eventually catch up to us and it’ll be very humiliating.
_______

I see a lot of people mentioning India and while yes a lot of spice blends have influence or get their ingredients from the Indian subcontinent, that really shouldn’t take away from the fact that this is STILL a spice *blend* unique to Yemen (literally no one else makes this except for areas with Yemeni influence or contact).
If it makes anyone here feel better, Yemen also has influence from other cultures (what culture doesn’t) lool

Sudanese have Arab blood, why do you think they speak Arabic and have very high levels of J1?

Dunno if you’re trolling or not but J1 haplogroup =/= Arab and isn’t associated with the Islamic conquests, only retarded Arab nationalists claim this shit. It’s been present in Africa for a long time, theres evidence of it being in the continent during the AHP.

Haplogroups are just trackings of ancient human migration which is why people find it useless, especially when it comes to topics like modern genetic makeups.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

Why do y’all get so weird and aggressively arrogant when it comes to acknowledging the foreign elements in Somali culture? You guys sound like you’re insecure.
I love how no one in this thread will admit to the fact that some Somalis literally call it HAWAJI too (so they are the same thing).
_________

^^
I don’t think coffee is a good example for your point because…

1. The Yemen theory is more of a Western lie/mistake rather than a Arab one. Yemen doesn’t actually have a traditional origin story for discovering coffee, these tale(s) are based off of a centuries old European oriental literature (Ex. India also has one that sounds exactly like the Yemeni one).
2. Most important point, there’s actual EVIDENCE that it came from south-western Ethiopians (Ethiopia is literally one of the few places on earth who developed an independent agricultural revolution. Those being coffee, millets, and sorghums).

…but there’s 0 evidence that stuff like Dirac and Xawaash originated in Somalia, the fact that those words stem from Arabic doesn’t help your case at all. Look, I don’t view Arabs in a positive light but I can’t run away from the fact that we do have influence from these people. The introduction and expansionism of Islam to East Africa is a HUGE reason for this, religion is a trojan horse for cultural assimilation (or something along those lines).

Greeks never traded and or claimed that cinnamon came from us (or any part of Africa), some of you need to learn the art of critically engaging with what you read. Random people write a lot of crap about us Somalis, whether they sound positive or not, you should always be careful about the stuff you read online and make sure they are backed with reliable evidence.
Somalis really do love regurgitating revisionism and sooner or later this shit will eventually catch up to us and it’ll be very humiliating.
_______

I see a lot of people mentioning India and while yes a lot of spice blends have influence or get their ingredients from the Indian subcontinent, that really shouldn’t take away from the fact that this is STILL a spice *blend* unique to Yemen (literally no one else makes this except for areas with Yemeni influence or contact).
If it makes anyone here feel better, Yemen also has influence from other cultures (what culture doesn’t) lool


Dunno if you’re trolling or not but J1 haplogroup =/= Arab and isn’t associated with the Islamic conquests, only retarded Arab nationalists claim this shit. It’s been present in Africa for a long time, theres evidence of it being in the continent during the AHP.

Haplogroups are just trackings of ancient human migration which is why people find it useless, especially when it comes to topics like modern genetic makeups.

I posted their autosomal results in this thread already naaya.Miss me with your nonsense

Their J1 subclades are mostly also under recent Arabian clades.Go search for it on yfull yourself naaya

 

[notinuse.]

Somalis are the only demographic in the whole world who rides yemeni dick.
I don't really know what they see in people whose whole city is build by mud aka 1444 bc

Look at tiktok
I despise my people sometimes. What do they see in them that I don't see. Please enlighten me, and no am not rude

It's not only yemeni people, it's arabs In general. There are so many somali abeed faraxs wanting to risk their life to "free palestine" while their own country is a literal shit hole. Arabs got somali men mentally enslaved ceeb badana I know our ancestors are rolling in their graves.

 

[anonimo]

Indeed cos it would unnecessarily add fuel to his nonsense that only Bajunis could sail off the Somali coast, which you know is a complete lie, and it was indeed misleading. Also, I had no idea our chat would be lost like that by me leaving. I had never left a DM with someone until then. Just thought it would prevent you from messaging me as I was getting sick of getting notifications after I noticed you actually lying to me and being rude. But again, there you go with the accusations that I had some ulterior motives other than what I am clearly stating just like when you claimed I made up that source I did not in fact make up, as you know.



So you admit that while I was remaining respectful toward you, you deliberately tried to be underhanded and "rile me up"? Okay, saaxiib. That's good to know. And I was not comparing apples to oranges. Arabians and Somalis are in fact extremely similar in conditions and culture, the main difference being Arabians' greater proximity to the Fertile Crescent and more willingness to use ajanabis, like Mesopotamians, as crafts people in place of their own equivalent to the gabooye. I acknowledged this plainly but you had to go on weird tirades about shirtless Oromo women and calling people savages. Another reason I had enough of talking to you.



Again with the accusations. I left our chat because I noticed how rude and dishonest you were being and wasn't having it when I was coming at you with respect myself. No other reason and don't waste my time with any accusations otherwise. I also already proved your claim about Kirk wrong, saaxiib. My quote and yours are not the same quote. They are at different times and in yours he explicitly says they are Arab and foreign vessels whereas in mine he says no such thing but that they are native. What is so hard about this to understand? I also coughed up the source about the Reer Maanyo both in chat and in the thread. Can you disprove both? Can you prove the two Kirk quotes are the same? It's there in the thread now. Please feel free to chime in whenever you wish but if not spare me these accusations of me being scared of you. Please, ma nigga...

Regarding your first paragraph.

Why you would not want Grant to see a historical source is not something I am concerned with. IMO, it is intellectual cowardice to withhold information or sources, however, I mistakenly deleted my post at your request when the honest thing would have been to leave it there so a healthy discussion could occur.

Regarding your second paragraph.

You were not being respectful, you even apologised in the thread for losing your cool. I raised my tone only after you had began losing your cool, it is all there in the DM. I highlighted the Oromo to demonstrate how the greater proximity of the Arabs to the Roman Empire, Mesopotamia etc. put them at a cultural advantage in comparison to Somalis who neighboured less sophisticated people than they did. I made that plain in my statements.

Regarding your third paragraph.

I asked you where was the primary source evidence for your claim that tens of dhows docked in Marka and Mogadishu were manned by Somalis. You provided a Dutch website link which had transcripts from Kirk but did not go into more detail unlike the the more expansive Jstor source addressed to the Royal Geographical Society. By the way, the two sources are not from different time periods but are from the exact same trip in which he sailed on the Briton with Captain Malcolm in 1873. In the below extract, the ethnicity of the people in the Mogadishu dhows is clearly referenced as being Arab when they are boarded for inspection.

Accept Terms and Conditions on JSTOR

JSTOR is a digital library of academic journals, books, and primary sources.

www.jstor.org

Your website source was lacking and left my question unanswered hence why I stated you were being misleading after I posted the Jstor source in our DM exchange and asked you several times for primary evidence to support your assertion. For someone who is passionate about searching for primary sources such as yourself, I thought it was suspicious that you were not sharing Kirk's Jstor source but referencing a Dutch website.

Unfortunately, I can't remember the link and it was just some Banaadiri oday, not a proper source but it's food for thought aaaaaand I do in fact have sources that describe Somali and native dhows from Koonfur and not ones manned by Arabs or "mixed Somalis" or "Cadcads" or anything of the sort:

THE southern Somali towns of Brava, Merka, Mogdeesho, and Worsheikh, commonly known as the "Benadir," or the "Harbours," from being the only points at which native vessels are able to call along this part of the coast, have been long marked as chief places at which slaves are yearly landed in thousands; and the general belief has been that so barren a country and so wild a race as the Somalis do not require slaves, all taken there being destined for reshipment to Arabia and elsewhere.

That this was to a considerable extent at one time done, there can be no doubt; but it is equally certain that at present a large part of the slaves now taken to the Benadir and retained, and used as slaves in the interior of the Somali land itself.

On the occasion of my recent visit, I was much struck with the development of the grain trade from Merka and Mogdeesho, at each of which places we found nineteen or twenty good-sized native vessels laying at anchor, some fully laden, and all with bags ready to load with native grain. Many other vessels, provided with empty bags, were also communicated with on the voyage there. To this must be added the enormous amount of orchilla weed, which, until very lately, was exported from those places, and crops of the best kind of sesame oil-seed, that forms a very important item in the Zanzibar trade, not to mention ox-hides, that, arriving from the Benadir in great numbers, constitute one of the chief exports of the latter place. - John Kirk, 1873

As for your Reer Maanyo blog source, it did not contradict any statement I made regarding who they are. The majority are of Arab origin as I implied.

Side Ayuu ku Baxay Magaca Reer Manyo?

Magaca Reer Maanyo waa Magac ay baxsadeen dad ku midoobay ama ay ka dhaxeysay Xirfad Badeed, ahaana dadkii maamuli jiray Dekedii Xamar iyo Marko.Magacan Reer Maanyo sababta ay ula baxeena waa marki…

banaadiriblog.wordpress.com

 

[pirater]

…but there’s 0 evidence that stuff like Dirac and Xawaash originated in Somalia

you self hating niggas are out of your minds. i would understand if yall say that xawaash is arab, but dirac?? you guys can not accept the fact that trade goes both ways, and that somalis can influence others. it being somali is the most logical answer. we have photos of women with the oldest version of dirac. not to mention that dirac is just a modest and fancier version of sadex qayd. aden/south yemen is where they wear the dirac the most, and its where lots of somalis have settled. yemenis have credited somalis multiple times.

these are all dirac:

 

[Shimbiris]

Regarding your first paragraph.

I don't care for your reasoning why you would not want Grant to see a historical source. IMO, it is intellectual cowardice to withhold information or sources, however, I mistakenly deleted my post at your request when the honest thing would have been to leave it there so a health discussion could occur.

Saaxiib, I've touched on why I wanted you to delete it like two or three times now and I'm not going to do it again. It was nonsensical and I didn't want it derailing the thread and unnecessarily feeding that fool when I was already going to post that source myself without all the nonsensical commentary about how it supposedly proves Somalis never went to Zanzibar before the 1840s-50s which I already proved wrong in that thread. Nothing to do with being afraid or dishonest. Anyway, khalas with this tangent.

You were not being respectful, you even apologised in the thread for losing your cool. I raised my tone only after you had began losing your cool, it is all there in the DM. I highlighted the Oromo to demonstrate how the greater proximity of the Arabs to the Roman Empire, Mesopotamia etc. put them at a cultural advantage in comparison to Somalis who neighboured less sophisticated people than they did. I made that plain in my statements.

I was until you started disparaging Somalis a bit and yes, I got heated and annoyed with the argumentative tone everything was starting to take because I was going through some pretty messed up stuff offline and I apologized pretty much immediately after as that's no excuse and remained respectful after that. That is not and will never be any excuse for you to then get disrespectful and deliberately try to rile me up when I did no such thing to you even when I did get heated. I just lost my cool, apologized and remained respectful. You actually tried to play games, piss me off on purpose and lied and now your excuse is "You lost your cool first." even though I apologized and corrected my behavior? Are you a child? Enough with this tangent as well before I'm even further disgusted.

I asked you where was the primary source evidence for your claim that tens of dhows docked in Marka and Mogadishu were owned by Somalis. You provided a Dutch website link which had transcripts from Kirk but did not go into more detail unlike the the more expansive Jstor source addressed to the Royal Geographical Society. By the way, the two sources are not from different time periods but are from the exact same trip in which he sailed on the Briton with Captain Malcolm in 1873. In the below extract, the ethnicity of the people in the Mogadishu dhows is clearly referenced as being Arab when they are boarded for inspection.

My quote:

THE southern Somali towns of Brava, Merka, Mogdeesho, and Worsheikh, commonly known as the "Benadir," or the "Harbours," from being the only points at which native vessels are able to call along this part of the coast, have been long marked as chief places at which slaves are yearly landed in thousands; and the general belief has been that so barren a country and so wild a race as the Somalis do not require slaves, all taken there being destined for reshipment to Arabia and elsewhere.

That this was to a considerable extent at one time done, there can be no doubt; but it is equally certain that at present a large part of the slaves now taken to the Benadir and retained, and used as slaves in the interior of the Somali land itself.

On the occasion of my recent visit, I was much struck with the development of the grain trade from Merka and Mogdeesho, at each of which places we found nineteen or twenty good-sized native vessels laying at anchor, some fully laden, and all with bags ready to load with native grain. Many other vessels, provided with empty bags, were also communicated with on the voyage there. To this must be added the enormous amount of orchilla weed, which, until very lately, was exported from those places, and crops of the best kind of sesame oil-seed, that forms a very important item in the Zanzibar trade, not to mention ox-hides, that, arriving from the Benadir in great numbers, constitute one of the chief exports of the latter place

May 31, 1873

Your quote:

July 7, 1873

They're not from the same time but are over a month apart. In yours he doesn't even stop at Marko. And again in your instance, yes, he points out this time that they are plainly Arab boats but a month before he doesn't say this at all says they are native in this case. Plain as day. Why would he call Arab boats native? Notice how in your quote he calls the grain native like in mine, which it is, but of course he doesn't refer to Arab boats as "native" yet he does in mine. These aren't the same ships, saaxiib. But you know what? I'll entertain that they are, yet even then it doesn't even matter because it's already evident that there were explicitly Somali manned ships leaving Koonfur a decade before this:

I also found some further sources describing what appear to be Dhows from Koonfur sailing abroad for trade. There's this source that describes a thriving cattle trading industry between the Somali coast and Mauritius in 1860 and how it is "Somali Dhows" sailing between what appears to be Koonfur (Barawe and Xamar) and Mauritius to trade in this:

Your whole argument with trying to claim those are basically the same quotes, which they are not, was to posit that Koonfur had no native, Somali manned vessels travelling to far off lands to export unlike the north and that notion is clearly dead in the water based on the quote above. Unless you want to unsubstantiated-ly argue those are MJ vessels or something taking goods from Koonfur? I'm familiar with your habit with making such leaps. You're just arguing semantics at this point in trying to argue that quote about "native" boats is definitely about Arab boats, which you cannot even prove for certain, as you've lost the main argument already, saaxiib. Enough of this.

As for your Reer Maanyo blog source, it did not contradict any statement I made regarding who they are. The majority are of Arab origin as I implied.

Where in that source does it say they're all or at all Gibil-Cad, akhi? Listen, claiming Arab genealogical roots and being Gibil-Cads are two different things. A lot of Gibil-Madow groups who are plain dhuxul and as Somali as you or me and will tell you as much claim the same sorts of Arab/ajanabi origins our own non-Banaadir tribes do. Reer Maanyo are plainly a traditionally Gibil-Madow tribe and the divide between the two, Madow iyo Cad, was historically clear. They didn't even eat together and would never marry each other until now in the more modern era. Look up any historical image of a Reer Maanyo or ask them yourself ; they were not Cadcads and no self-respecting Cadcad would engage in things like fishing which they saw as beneath them. Not going to run around in circles with you on this tangent either.

I won't be replying anymore beyond this point, walaal. This is another reason I stopped our chat. I have a life and a lot of ill shit going on offline and I partly come on here to joke around, unwind and learn things and disseminate info not to go back and forth with you just for the sake of arguing especially when you openly admit to trying to rile me up and were definitely willing to be dishonest as I noticed when we were DM-ing.

 

[anonimo]

Saaxiib, I've touched on why I wanted you to delete it like two or three times now and I'm not going to do it again. It was nonsensical and I didn't want it derailing the thread and unnecessarily feeding that fool when I was already going to post that source myself without all the nonsensical commentary about how it supposedly proves Somalis never went to Zanzibar before the 1840s-50s which I already proved wrong in that thread. Nothing to do with being afraid or dishonest. Anyway, khalas with this tangent.



I was until you started disparaging Somalis a bit and yes, I got heated and annoyed with the argumentative tone everything was starting to take because I was going through some pretty fucked up stuff offline and I apologized pretty immediately as that's no excuse and remained respectful after that. That is not and will never be any excuse for you to then get disrespectful and deliberately try to rile me up when I did no such thing to you even when I did get heated. I just lost my cool, apologized and remained respectful. You actually tried to play games, piss me off on purpose and lied and now your excuse is "You lost your cool first." are you a child? Enough with this tangent as well before I'm even further disgusted.



My quote:


May 31, 1873

Your quote:

July 7, 1873

They're not from the same time but are over a month apart. In yours he doesn't even stop at Marko. And again in your instance, yes, he points out this time that they are plainly Arab boats but a month before he doesn't say this at all says they are native in this case. Plain as day. Why would he call Arab boats native? Notice how in your quote he calls the grain native like in mine, which it is, but of course he doesn't refer to Arab boats as "native" yet he does in mine. These aren't the same ships, saaxiib. But you know I'll entertain that they are yet even then it doesn't even matter because it's already evident that there were explicitly Somali manned ships leaving Koonfur a decade before this:



Your whole argument with trying to claim those are basically the same quotes, which they are not, was to posit that Koonfur had no native, Somali manned vessels travelling to far off lands to export unlike Koonfur and that notion is clearly dead in the water based on the quote above. You're just arguing semantics at this point in trying to argue that quote about "native" boats is definitely about Arab boats, which you cannot even prove for certain, as you've lost the main argument already, saaxiib. Enough of this.



Where in that source does it say they're all Gibil-Cad, akhi? Listen, claiming Arab genealogical roots and being Gibil-Cads are two different things. A lot of Gibil-Madow groups who are plain dhuxul and as Somali as you or me claim the same sorts of Arab/ajanabi origins our own non-Banaadir clans do. Reer Maanyo are plainly a traditionally Gibil-Madow tribe and divide between the two was historically clear. They didn't even eat together and would never marry each other until now in the more modern era. Look up any historical image of a Reer Maanyo or ask them yourself; they were not Cadcads and no self-respecting Cadcad would engage in things like fishing which they saw as beneath them. Not going to run around in circles with you on this tangent either.

I won't be replying anymore beyond this point, walaal. This is another reason I stopped our chat. I have a life and a lot of ill shit going on offline and I partly come on here to joke around, unwind and learn things and disseminate info not to go back and forth with you just for the sake of arguing especially when you openly admit to trying to rile me up and were definitely willing to be dishonest as I noticed when we were DM-ing.

Read both sources carefully again. You will observe that he did not land at Marka and only anchored at Brava, similar to his experience in the letter addressed to the National Geographic Society. He also states that they were the exact same number of dhows at Marka loading grain in the Jstor source as your Dutch website reference. These are not two different trips to the same ports, the only difference is that one letter was dated earlier than the other. Not surprising as they are addressed to two different people. Moreover, in both extracts, the trips begin and end at the same locations. Just to emphasise my point further, compare these two extracts from your source and The Royal Geographic source. How the hell can you argue that they are from different time periods? The only difference is that they are worded differently!

JSTOR

" Seeing the people perfectly friendly, I proposed an excursion into the Somali country for one day; crossing the desert sand-hills that all along bound the view from seaward. Next morning, at day-hreak, we were on shore. I had engaged a relative of one of the head men to be our guide. We ascended the sand-hills, where were curious lines they called fences, to mark fields and gardens, but not a trace of any plant on the burning sand, unless regular desert-bush, such as you might see near Aden. The vegetation was peculiar and new to me, but African still in every respect. I made a small collection, but the fields I mention struck me as so peculiar, that I asked the meaning, and was told that in one month the rains would commence, and that, although they did not last long, for the time the gardens would be full of melons and vegetables. It must be a strange transformation. From the crest of the sand-hills, near Brava, I saw as noble a sight as I ever have in my life....

Internet Source

At Brava we anchored and landed. Although here received without any deference, there was nothing in the behaviour of the Somali or town-people objectionable, and I soon found that being able to converse freely with them in person, and without an interpreter, I had no reason to fear a misunderstanding. On the contrary, we arranged a party for next day to cross over the hills and into the Somali plains. In conversation with the natives, on this excursion, I gained much information that at a formal meeting in town they never would have given; nor had we the smallest reason to suspect the people of the treachery usually ascribed to them, for some of our party overcome by heat and fatigue fell behind, and did not return until sunset, when they came straggling in; and another, unacquainted with a word of the language, was brought back safely the following morning from the endless plain on which, after spending the night alone, he had again set out in search of the sea-coast, but in the wrong direction.

Did I say Reer Manyo are all Gibil Cad? I stated the majority were of Arab origin based on the fact that the biggest and third biggest clans in the Reer Manyo confederation are of Arab origin according to your blog source. It is actually more taboo in Southern Somali culture to be seafarers (Jaaji) hence why the Somali clans listed in your link were outside mainstream Somali society due to our biased, ignorant pastoral culture. I should know as one of them are of Surre origin, the Qubeys Reer Caafi who historically lived and sailed from the old Deekada Cabdicasis area.

Sxb, ever since our friendly exchange, do I ever quote you? I am not an agitator or that active to be bothered with random threads which I sometimes find historically questionable. Amma keep my distance like I have recently been doing and give you your peace brother.

May Allah ease your troubles, Caafis. All the best.

 

[Shimbiris]

Read both sources carefully again. You will observe that he did not land at Marka and only anchored at Brava, similar to his experience in the letter addressed to the National Geographic Society. He also states that they were the exact same number of dhows at Marka loading grain in the Jstor source as your Dutch website reference. These are not two different trips to the same ports, the only difference is that one letter was dated earlier than the other. Not surprising as they are addressed to two different people. Moreover, in both extracts, the trips begin and end at the same locations. Just to emphasise my point further, compare these two extracts from your source and The Royal Geographic source. How the hell can you argue that they are from different time periods? The only difference is that they are worded differently!

I didn't argue that they were from different "time-periods" as though there was some massive difference in time but from different times of the same year and as far as I see is that is in fact the case, akhi. And again, in my quote he plainly says the ships are native and speaks of both boats at Marko and Xamar whereas in yours he just speaks of boats in Xamar that he plainly says are Arab. It's not talking about the same boats as far as I see but again this is boring semantics regardless of which one of us is correct given that it is clear there are in fact Somali manned boats from Koonfur a decade earlier. Your whole main argument about Koonfur not having native Somali sailors like the north is moot, walaal. This is another thing that bothered me as we chatted. You never seemed to concede when you were wrong. Just glossed over it.

Did I say Reer Manyo are all Gibil Cad? I stated the majority were of Arab origin based on the fact that the biggest and third biggest clans in the Reer Manyo confederation are of Arab origin according to your blog source. It is actually more taboo in Southern Somali culture to be seafarers (Jaaji) hence why the Somali clans listed in your link were outside mainstream Somali society due to our biased, ignorant pastoral culture. I should know as one of them are of Surre origin, the Qubeys Reer Caafi who historically and sailed from the old Deekada Cabdicasis.

See this is what gets to me, walaal, and it has nothing to do with nationalism. I am proud to be a Somali and grovel to no one but I am not a nationalist in the normal sense. I really wouldn't mind if 100 years from now Somalia becomes a multi-cultural country where Somalis as a pure group don't even exist anymore so long as the country is just and everyone lives well and Somalis weren't basically genocided but willingly intermixed. Bin Adan waa bin Adan. I just dislike how you disparage and insult your own people like this and completely unnecessarily. It has nothing to do with a "biased, ignorant pastoral culture" or Somalis specifically. It is a native Afro-Asiatic or more specifically Semitic-Berber-Cushitic practice that was practiced by Highlander farmer Cushites, settled Somalis, Xabashis, many Berbers whether Atlas mountains farmer folks or Saharan nomads and even the Arabs I have seen you appear to idealize:

Arabs also practiced Artisanal Taboo

I was always somewhat aware of this and how Arabians, like Somalis, have a similar aversion toward the crafts and "working with their hands" but didn't realize it was near exactly identical to the taboo among Horners: https://g.co/kgs/MgQ5PH Blacksmithing, masonry, carpentry, tanning and...

www.somalispot.com

Arabs practiced the exact same taboos even during the times of the nabi (SAW). The nabi (SAW) even used Blacksmiths as an example of something impure and negative because he knew the Arabs of his time would understand the analogy:

But the most special thing about a virtuous friend is that no matter what, you always gain from them-there is nothing to lose. As the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) explains, you either end up possessing a sweet smell or at least experience it while the meeting endures.

"And as for the blacksmith, he may either burn your clothes, or you may be exposed to his awful smell."

Accordingly, the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) described the antithesis of the righteous friend as someone wholly different from the perfume seller. The blacksmith is a man who works with metal.

During the days of the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam), and to a lesser extent these days, these metalworkers laboured for hours in a choking, smoky environment of extreme heat in order to design their desired object. Again the comparison by the Prophet (salAllahu alayhi wasalam) is superbly astute. In the company of the blacksmith one is permanently harmed by the heat or even the sparks resulting from the labour. This means one has adopted an evil habit from the one he keeps company. If not, then the very company of the blacksmith gives no relief to the conscience.

In his time all the crafts people in places like Medinah were not even Arabs but apparently from Egypt and Mesopotamia as I share in that thread. Cadcads prided themselves on having professions like being a Qadi or a merchant and would not "abase themselves" to the role of a fisherman or craftsman, a habit they share with both Somalis and Arabs who ostracize people among them who do such tasks or get foreigners to do it (the latter more often in the Arabs' case) and it is clear that Reer Maanyo are a Gibil-Madow group, they just have groups who claim Arab roots, there is a difference and a reason why the oday who wrote all that does not call them Cadcads; they're simply not. I implore you to prove otherwise. I wasn't joking about Yemen and the Jews, by the way. Simply googling "Yemeni Jews, masonry" will pop this up among the first results:

Other Jewish crafts were the preparation of furs from the skins of goats and other animals, and weaving. Many Jews were masons; the beautiful traceried window-heads of hard plaster seen on many city dwellings in Yemen were mostly their work. Their carpentry, however, was poor.

I don't know if you were just trolling about all the "savage" comments against Somalis but this is not some practice unique to us or due specifically to our own pastoral culture. It's some interesting taboo all of our ancestors have had for thousands of years. The civilized Arabs you like to speak of would espouse the same sorts of views toward blacksmiths, masons and carpenters as Somalis. It probably does originally come from pastoral nomads integrating settled, specialized people into their ranks and giving them a servile role within society. It seems it became cemented almost like a caste system over-time among Cushites, Semites and Berbers to a point where even Somalis, Xabashis, Arabs and Berbers who aren't even pastoralists carry this on.

Sxb, ever since our friendly exchange, do I ever quote you? I am not an agitator or that active to be bothered with random threads which I sometimes find historically questionable. Amma keep my distance like I have recently been doing and give you your peace brother.

May Allah ease your troubles, Caafis. All the best.

I invite you to prove what is historically questionable in the threads, walaalkiis. Because so far I have not seen you prove your claims about how seafaring mostly just popped up during the 1800s or how Koonfur didn't have local native sailors and so on but simply semantics about one quote that's not that important in the big scheme of things. All that being said, cafis in my case too and I hope any troubles you have are eased too. I do not like conflict myself either and am glad if we have seemingly buried the hatchet. All the best.

 

[anonimo]

I didn't argue that they were from different "time-periods" as though there was some massive difference in time but from different times of the same year and as far as I see is that is in fact the case, akhi. And again, in my quote he plainly says the ships are native and speaks of both boats at Marko and Xamar whereas in yours he just speaks of boats in Xamar that he plainly says are Arab. It's not talking about the same boats as far as I see but again this is boring semantics regardless of which one of us is correct given that it is clear there are in fact Somali manned boats from Koonfur a decade earlier. Your whole main argument about Koonfur not having native Somali sailors like the north is moot, walaal. This is another thing that bothered me as we chatted. You never seemed to concede when you were wrong. Just glossed over it.



See this is what gets to me, walaal, and it has nothing to do with nationalism. I am proud to be a Somali and grovel to no one but I am not a nationalist in the normal sense. I really wouldn't mind if 100 years from now Somalia becomes a multi-cultural country where Somalis as a pure group don't even exist anymore so long as the country is just and everyone lives well and Somalis weren't basically genocided but willingly intermixed. Bin Adan waa bin Adan. I just dislike how you disparage and insult your own people like this and completely unnecessarily. It has nothing to do with a "biased, ignorant pastoral culture" or Somalis specifically. It is a native Afro-Asiatic or more specifically Semitic-Berber-Cushitic practice that was practiced by Highlander farmer Cushites, settled Somalis, Xabashis, many Berbers whether Atlas mountains farmer folks or Saharan nomads and even the Arabs I have seen you appear to idealize:

Arabs also practiced Artisanal Taboo

I was always somewhat aware of this and how Arabians, like Somalis, have a similar aversion toward the crafts and "working with their hands" but didn't realize it was near exactly identical to the taboo among Horners: https://g.co/kgs/MgQ5PH Blacksmithing, masonry, carpentry, tanning and...

www.somalispot.com

Arabs practiced the exact same taboos even during the times of the nabi (SAW). The nabi (SAW) even used Blacksmiths as an example of something impure and negative because he knew the Arabs of his time would understand the analogy:



In his time all the crafts people in places like Medinah were not even Arabs but apparently from Egypt and Mesopotamia as I share in that thread. Cadcads prided themselves on having professions like being a Qadi or a merchant and would not "abase themselves" to the role of a fisherman or craftsman, a habit they share with both Somalis and Arabs who ostracize people among them who do such tasks or get foreigners to do it (the latter more often in the Arabs' case) and it is clear that Reer Maanyo are a Gibil-Madow group, they just have groups who claim Arab roots, there is a difference and a reason why the oday who wrote all that does not call them Cadcads; they're simply not. I implore you to prove otherwise. I wasn't joking about Yemen and the Jews, by the way. Simply googling "Yemeni Jews, masonry" will pop this up among the first results:



I don't know if you were just trolling about all the "savage" comments against Somalis but this is not some practice unique to us or due specifically to our own pastoral culture. It's some interesting taboo all of our ancestors have had for thousands of years. The civilized Arabs you like to speak of would espouse the same sorts of views toward blacksmiths, masons and carpenters as Somalis. It probably does originally come from pastoral nomads integrating settled, specialized people into their ranks and giving them a servile role within society. It seems it became cemented almost like a caste system over-time among Cushites, Semites and Berbers to a point where even Somalis, Xabashis, Arabs and Berbers who aren't even pastoralists carry this on.



Feel free to prove what is historically questionable in the threads, walaalkiis. Because so far I have not seen you prove your claims about how seafaring mostly just popped up during the 1800s or how Koonfur didn't have local native sailors and so on but simply semantics about one quote that's not that important in the big scheme of things. All that being said, caafis in my case too and I hope any troubles you have are eased to. I do not like conflict myself either and am glad if we have seemingly buried the hatchet. All the best.

It is not semantics bro, just stating the obvious Wallahi that both sources relate to the same trip except that his earlier letter goes into more detail unlike his later address in your web source.

Anyway, to each his own bro. Salam.