Arabs also practiced Artisanal Taboo

[Shimbiris]

I was always somewhat aware of this and how Arabians, like Somalis, have a similar aversion toward the crafts and "working with their hands" but didn't realize it was near exactly identical to the taboo among Horners:

Near Eastern Tribal Societies During the Nineteenth Century: Economy, Society and Politics Between Tent and Town - Google Search

Blacksmithing, masonry, carpentry, tanning and pottery-work. "True Arabs" hate doing it, ostracize those who do as their own separate sort of caste and do not intermarry with them, at least this was the case for centuries until very recently. A lot of the crafts in their societies was done either by these specific castes, Jews who often occupied this sort of position in Arabian society or ajanabis like Banyans (Indians). This was true even in Yemen:

History of Arabia, Ancient and Modern:

books.google.ae

Arabian Nights and Daze

This book follows a United States Foreign Service couple as they renew an official presence in Yemen. Arriving three years after the 1967 closure of the American embassy in Sanaa, the couple experimented with this unique form of "diplomacy under a foreign flag" when they opened up and managed...

books.google.ae

This is strikingly the same custom as Horner Cushites and Ethiosemites who ostracize blacksmiths, tanners, masons, carpenters and the like the same way. The Beta Israel, for example, are one such group who apparently formed their own unique sect of the local Ethiopian Orthodoxy some mistake for "Judaism" because of how they were ostracized by the rest of Northern Ethiopian society for being artisans. Somalis have many such groups like the Tumaal, Yibir, Madhiban, and some Benadiri Gibil-Madow subtribes like the Kafari of Marko who handled work like blacksmithing and general artisanal work in the coastal towns. Though Somalis also add hunters and soothsayers to the mix. Though, interestingly, in Somali coastal towns and society as a whole the artisans seem to be entirely ethnic Somalis, and artisans, of any kind, among other Horners are also all native as far as I know. Arabs do differ from us in the single respect that they seem more willing to let ajanabis fill the roll of the "low-caste" native Arab artisans and the Jews who are pretty much native Arabians in everything but religion and a few haplogroups and very minor autosomal signals.

However, I do wonder at the possibility that some of the artisanal groups in the Horn originally had a foreign origin from places like the Fertile Crescent and India then gradually assimilated until they were genetically indistinguishable from the natives. There has to be some reason why some of these groups in our region have a Jewish origin myth given that, in Arabia, Jews are outright known to often be crafts people and the most skilled native crafts people at that:

The Road to Redemption

Since the rise of Islam, Jews have been living in the Yemen as the only non-Muslim minority. Their status, never enviable, deteriorated in the twentieth century as the Imam Yahya sought to maintain the full force of Islamic law and local custom. The attempts to create a Jewish National Home in...

books.google.ae

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[Aurelian]

I was always somewhat aware of this and how Arabians, like Somalis, have a similar aversion toward the crafts and "working with their hands" but didn't realize it was near exactly identical to the taboo among Horners:

Near Eastern Tribal Societies During the Nineteenth Century: Economy, Society and Politics Between Tent and Town - Google Search

Blacksmithing, masonry, carpentry, tanning and pottery-work. "True Arabs" hate doing it, ostracize those who do as their own separate sort of caste and do not intermarry with them, at least this was the case for centuries until very recently. A lot of the crafts in their societies was done either by these specific castes, Jews who often occupied this sort of position in Arabian society or ajanabis like Banyans (Indians). This was true even in Yemen:

History of Arabia, Ancient and Modern:

books.google.ae

Arabian Nights and Daze

This book follows a United States Foreign Service couple as they renew an official presence in Yemen. Arriving three years after the 1967 closure of the American embassy in Sanaa, the couple experimented with this unique form of "diplomacy under a foreign flag" when they opened up and managed...

books.google.ae

This is strikingly the same custom as Horner Cushites and Ethiosemites who ostracize blacksmiths, tanners, masons, carpenters and the like the same way. The Beta Israel, for example, are one such group who apparently formed their own unique sect of the local Ethiopian Orthodoxy some mistake for "Judaism" because of how they were ostracized by the rest of Northern Ethiopian society for being artisans. Somalis have many such groups like the Tumaal, Yibir, Madhiban, and some Benadiri Gibil-Madow subtribes like the Kafari of Marko who handled work like blacksmithing and general artisanal work in the coastal towns. Though Somalis also add hunters and soothsayers to the mix. Though, interestingly, in Somali coastal towns and society as a whole the artisans seem to be entirely ethnic Somalis, and artisans, of any kind, among other Horners are also all native as far as I know. Arabs do differ from us in the single respect that they seem more willing to let ajanabis fill the roll of the "low-caste" native Arab artisans and the Jews who are pretty much native Arabians in everything but religion and a few haplogroups and very minor autosomal signals.

However, I do wonder at the possibility that some of the artisanal groups in the Horn originally had a foreign origin from places like the Fertile Crescent and India then gradually assimilated until they were genetically indistinguishable from the natives. There has to be some reason why some of these groups in our region have a Jewish origin myth given that, in Arabia, Jews are outright known to often be crafts people and the most skilled native crafts people at that:

The Road to Redemption

Since the rise of Islam, Jews have been living in the Yemen as the only non-Muslim minority. Their status, never enviable, deteriorated in the twentieth century as the Imam Yahya sought to maintain the full force of Islamic law and local custom. The attempts to create a Jewish National Home in...

books.google.ae

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You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I heard many times a proverb,
العرب لا يستسيغون الاعمال اليدوية او العرب يحتقرون الصنعة/الاعمال اليدوية
Or something like that, that is why Saudis don’t do handwork

 

[Descendent-Of-Fiqi]

I was always somewhat aware of this and how Arabians, like Somalis, have a similar aversion toward the crafts and "working with their hands" but didn't realize it was near exactly identical to the taboo among Horners:

Near Eastern Tribal Societies During the Nineteenth Century: Economy, Society and Politics Between Tent and Town - Google Search

Blacksmithing, masonry, carpentry, tanning and pottery-work. "True Arabs" hate doing it, ostracize those who do as their own separate sort of caste and do not intermarry with them, at least this was the case for centuries until very recently. A lot of the crafts in their societies was done either by these specific castes, Jews who often occupied this sort of position in Arabian society or ajanabis like Banyans (Indians). This was true even in Yemen:

History of Arabia, Ancient and Modern:

books.google.ae

Arabian Nights and Daze

This book follows a United States Foreign Service couple as they renew an official presence in Yemen. Arriving three years after the 1967 closure of the American embassy in Sanaa, the couple experimented with this unique form of "diplomacy under a foreign flag" when they opened up and managed...

books.google.ae

This is strikingly the same custom as Horner Cushites and Ethiosemites who ostracize blacksmiths, tanners, masons, carpenters and the like the same way. The Beta Israel, for example, are one such group who apparently formed their own unique sect of the local Ethiopian Orthodoxy some mistake for "Judaism" because of how they were ostracized by the rest of Northern Ethiopian society for being artisans. Somalis have many such groups like the Tumaal, Yibir, Madhiban, and some Benadiri Gibil-Madow subtribes like the Kafari of Marko who handled work like blacksmithing and general artisanal work in the coastal towns. Though Somalis also add hunters and soothsayers to the mix. Though, interestingly, in Somali coastal towns and society as a whole the artisans seem to be entirely ethnic Somalis, and artisans, of any kind, among other Horners are also all native as far as I know. Arabs do differ from us in the single respect that they seem more willing to let ajanabis fill the roll of the "low-caste" native Arab artisans and the Jews who are pretty much native Arabians in everything but religion and a few haplogroups and very minor autosomal signals.

However, I do wonder at the possibility that some of the artisanal groups in the Horn originally had a foreign origin from places like the Fertile Crescent and India then gradually assimilated until they were genetically indistinguishable from the natives. There has to be some reason why some of these groups in our region have a Jewish origin myth given that, in Arabia, Jews are outright known to often be crafts people and the most skilled native crafts people at that:

The Road to Redemption

Since the rise of Islam, Jews have been living in the Yemen as the only non-Muslim minority. Their status, never enviable, deteriorated in the twentieth century as the Imam Yahya sought to maintain the full force of Islamic law and local custom. The attempts to create a Jewish National Home in...

books.google.ae

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This tradition is still true to this day in the construction and general labor professions, all of them are Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Filipinos. It's makes you wonder what will happen when the money runs out for the Gulf...

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

Well a good percentage of these Madhibaans and other low-caste are endping up being proven to originate from the Yemeni Arabs although a decent amount of them have paternal Somali haplogroups

 

[tariq moses]

Great thread as always, and any ideas on where this taboo ultimately originated? It'd be cool if the Horner, Arabian and Tuareg metal/artisanal taboo has a common origin.

 

[The alchemist]

My mother told me that Yemeni had lower caste groups doing such work as you see in our marginalized artisan groups.

I have one Madhiban individual 4th cousin, 24 cM shared DNA on Y-Full. This individual seems to be somewhat mixed to some degree autosomally with MENA (1% Middle Eastern Jewish included) sources as well minor northwestern South Asian (4%), understanding a level of unreliability concerning inconsistency across the board on the service platform in respect to new admixtures or Cushitic/Ethiosemitic MENA ancient layers getting randomized to be designated as new components, making hard to gauge the ancestral categorical proportion. My readings, as an example, are very off-field; it almost makes sense if you think of my profile on FTDNA to be some basal high error-based interpretation, another type of algorithmic strategy designation. All in all, I think I can confirm he carries higher Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia & Somalia than I. His Y-chromosomal DNA was J-M267.

Checking and cross-referencing the minor matches I have of Somali origin, all of them got over 80% Horn of Africa, many of them carrying substantial minor Maghreb & Egypt. I have a suspicion this component reading in Somalis is not a recent extra admixture from Arabia mistakenly falsely classified (I think this one can only be real if the individual has noticeable more Peninsular ancestry). This Madhiban person got a significant Maghreb & Egypt, but another super-population sub-classification besides this is a cluster called Bedouin (and, for some reason, this one is under North Africa as well). Mind you, this latter population is not Peninsular Arabian proper or Yemeni Jewish, of which the guy got zero in. And, of all the Somalis, he is the only one getting 10% Bedouin. I think this 10% Bedouin is a real non-Horn of African thing.

Doing some digging, I checked the FTDNA white paper, to see where this Bedouin is sourced from, concluding it is a combination of samples taken from publicly available databases, specifically ones used and/or data produced in Cavalli-Sforza, L.L. (2005) and Li, J.Z. et al. (2008). In both instances, Bedouin is grouped together with Palestinian and Druze, showing a Southern Levantine shift. From the looks of it from the Jun Z. Li study, a population dendrogram shows Bedouin to be mixed individuals similar to Palestinians in terms of proportions, and another set of samples was being very Arabian. I think these are the BedouinA and BedouinB samples available on the G25 coordinate spreadsheet. The population tree in the white paper, or any classification tree for that matter, simplifies relations to a great extent. So, for this matter alone, from what I have gathered, we can put the pieces together. BedouinA and BedouinB got approximated to one cluster becoming similar in value to North Africans of the east like Egyptians, who have a lot of the genetic similarities with Southern Levantines but with increased Natufian, and since BedouinA, a Palestinian-like profile got merged with a highly Natufian BedouinB, we can see that it would seem similar to approximate Egyptian average (if the samples of BedouinA were more numerous that BedouinB). That’s why, as FTDNA carries Egyptian samples, it would be placed in the North African category than the Levantine.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

My mother told me that Yemeni had lower caste groups doing such work as you see in our marginalized artisan groups.

I have one Madhiban individual 4th cousin, 24 cM shared DNA on Y-Full. This individual seems to be somewhat mixed to some degree autosomally with MENA (1% Middle Eastern Jewish included) sources as well minor northwestern South Asian (4%), understanding a level of unreliability concerning inconsistency across the board on the service platform in respect to new admixtures or Cushitic/Ethiosemitic MENA ancient layers getting randomized to be designated as new components, making hard to gauge the ancestral categorical proportion. My readings, as an example, are very off-field; it almost makes sense if you think of my profile on FTDNA to be some basal high error-based interpretation, another type of algorithmic strategy designation. All in all, I think I can confirm he carries higher Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia & Somalia than I. His Y-chromosomal DNA was J-M267.

Checking and cross-referencing the minor matches I have of Somali origin, all of them got over 80% Horn of Africa, many of them carrying substantial minor Maghreb & Egypt. I have a suspicion this component reading in Somalis is not a recent extra admixture from Arabia mistakenly falsely classified (I think this one can only be real if the individual has noticeable more Peninsular ancestry). This Madhiban person got a significant Maghreb & Egypt, but another super-population sub-classification besides this is a cluster called Bedouin (and, for some reason, this one is under North Africa as well). Mind you, this latter population is not Peninsular Arabian proper or Yemeni Jewish, of which the guy got zero in. And, of all the Somalis, he is the only one getting 10% Bedouin. I think this 10% Bedouin is a real non-Horn of African thing.

Doing some digging, I checked the FTDNA white paper, to see where this Bedouin is sourced from, concluding it is a combination of samples taken from publicly available databases, specifically ones used and/or data produced in Cavalli-Sforza, L.L. (2005) and Li, J.Z. et al. (2008). In both instances, Bedouin is grouped together with Palestinian and Druze, showing a Southern Levantine shift. From the looks of it from the Jun Z. Li study, a population dendrogram shows Bedouin to be mixed individuals similar to Palestinians in terms of proportions, and another set of samples was being very Arabian. I think these are the BedouinA and BedouinB samples available on the G25 coordinate spreadsheet. The population tree in the white paper, or any classification tree for that matter, simplifies relations to a great extent. So, for this matter alone, from what I have gathered, we can put the pieces together. BedouinA and BedouinB got approximated to one cluster becoming similar in value to North Africans of the east like Egyptians, who have a lot of the genetic similarities with Southern Levantines but with increased Natufian, and since BedouinA, a Palestinian-like profile got merged with a highly Natufian BedouinB, we can see that it would seem similar to approximate Egyptian average (if the samples of BedouinA were more numerous that BedouinB). That’s why, as FTDNA carries Egyptian samples, it would be placed in the North African category than the Levantine.

I think Ftdna is pretty good at picking out real recent Peninsular Arabian ancestry.I get 6% Yemenite Jewish on it and my mother has actual Arabian matches with higher Arabian ancestry than me for example.

The Maghreb & Egypt component on Ftdna just seems random as I seen even Kikuyus and Tutsis getting it.Imo it's just the algorithim going bezerk and actual Egytpians don't even score that component but rather FTdna's South Levant component

 

[Idilinaa]

My mother told me that Yemeni had lower caste groups doing such work as you see in our marginalized artisan groups.

I have one Madhiban individual 4th cousin, 24 cM shared DNA on Y-Full. This individual seems to be somewhat mixed to some degree autosomally with MENA (1% Middle Eastern Jewish included) sources as well minor northwestern South Asian (4%), understanding a level of unreliability concerning inconsistency across the board on the service platform in respect to new admixtures or Cushitic/Ethiosemitic MENA ancient layers getting randomized to be designated as new components, making hard to gauge the ancestral categorical proportion. My readings, as an example, are very off-field; it almost makes sense if you think of my profile on FTDNA to be some basal high error-based interpretation, another type of algorithmic strategy designation. All in all, I think I can confirm he carries higher Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia & Somalia than I. His Y-chromosomal DNA was J-M267.

Checking and cross-referencing the minor matches I have of Somali origin, all of them got over 80% Horn of Africa, many of them carrying substantial minor Maghreb & Egypt. I have a suspicion this component reading in Somalis is not a recent extra admixture from Arabia mistakenly falsely classified (I think this one can only be real if the individual has noticeable more Peninsular ancestry). This Madhiban person got a significant Maghreb & Egypt, but another super-population sub-classification besides this is a cluster called Bedouin (and, for some reason, this one is under North Africa as well). Mind you, this latter population is not Peninsular Arabian proper or Yemeni Jewish, of which the guy got zero in. And, of all the Somalis, he is the only one getting 10% Bedouin. I think this 10% Bedouin is a real non-Horn of African thing.

Doing some digging, I checked the FTDNA white paper, to see where this Bedouin is sourced from, concluding it is a combination of samples taken from publicly available databases, specifically ones used and/or data produced in Cavalli-Sforza, L.L. (2005) and Li, J.Z. et al. (2008). In both instances, Bedouin is grouped together with Palestinian and Druze, showing a Southern Levantine shift. From the looks of it from the Jun Z. Li study, a population dendrogram shows Bedouin to be mixed individuals similar to Palestinians in terms of proportions, and another set of samples was being very Arabian. I think these are the BedouinA and BedouinB samples available on the G25 coordinate spreadsheet. The population tree in the white paper, or any classification tree for that matter, simplifies relations to a great extent. So, for this matter alone, from what I have gathered, we can put the pieces together. BedouinA and BedouinB got approximated to one cluster becoming similar in value to North Africans of the east like Egyptians, who have a lot of the genetic similarities with Southern Levantines but with increased Natufian, and since BedouinA, a Palestinian-like profile got merged with a highly Natufian BedouinB, we can see that it would seem similar to approximate Egyptian average (if the samples of BedouinA were more numerous that BedouinB). That’s why, as FTDNA carries Egyptian samples, it would be placed in the North African category than the Levantine.

Well a good percentage of these Madhibaans and other low-caste are endping up being proven to originate from the Yemeni Arabs although a decent amount of them have paternal Somali haplogroups

Madhiban, Tumaal, Yibir is not 1 clan lineage or related to eachother, these are umbrella occupational names for certain bondsmen Somali groups. The bondsmen groups are scattered widely across the whole Somali regions. It is incorrect to call them a caste, they are bondsmen and they are attached to other Somali clans as their patron/protectors:

The sab live scatttered all over Northern Somalilan in real or putative patri lineages on a pattern similar, though reduced, to those of their noble Somali (Ajji) protectors. In different regions they are known locally by the names of the eponyms of the small agnatic lineage groups into which they are divided, rather than their occupational classification as Midgan, Tumaal and Yibir. Ultimitely, however iti is as these and, collectively, as sab, that they are described. In the north the two largest Midgaan lineage groups are the Muuse Diiriye in the west and Midhiban in the east.


They all claim descent from Noble Somali clans and argue that they were weaker lineages pushed into their role of bondsmen:

''Some Sab informants also, referring to well documented cases, maintain that they are of the same stock as the Somali but descend from small numerically weak lineage groups which were reduced to servitude by more powerful enemies. In support of these claims, Midgaan informants have produced genealogies tracing descent from Dir, the founder of the Dir clan familiy. Some Tumaal race descent from Darood founder of the noble Darood Somali clan family''

The only collective genetic data done on them is the one done by I.M Lewis and Goldsmith:

Goldsmith and I. M. Lewis (1958) say that the hunter and artisan castes among the Somali show no obvious physical differences from the “noble” Somali, speak the same language, are culturally similar, and that there are no “strong traditions” of their having had a separate origin. In addition, these authors report no significant differences between the Somali and their associated castes (called sub) in ABO, MN, and Rhesus blood group distribution, although the castes are endogamous and have presumably long been so.

And they concluded that their Bondsmen (Sab) sample was identitical to the other Somali clans:

our sab sample is thus virtually identical with that of the Somali....our results suggest that in serological characters there is no difference between those of the sab and those of noble Somali.

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

Madhiban, Tumaal, Yibir is not 1 clan lineage or related to eachother, these are umbrella occupational names for certain bondsmen Somali groups. The bondsmen groups are scattered widely across the whole Somali regions. It is incorrect to call them a caste, they are bondsmen and they are attached to other Somali clans as their patron/protectors:

The sab live scatttered all over Northern Somalilan in real or putative patri lineages on a pattern similar, though reduced, to those of their noble Somali (Ajji) protectors. In different regions they are known locally by the names of the eponyms of the small agnatic lineage groups into which they are divided, rather than their occupational classification as Midgan, Tumaal and Yibir. Ultimitely, however iti is as these and, collectively, as sab, that they are described. In the north the two largest Midgaan lineage groups are the Muuse Diiriye in the west and Midhiban in the east.


They all claim descent from Noble Somali clans and argue that they were weaker lineages pushed into their role of bondsmen:

''Some Sab informants also, referring to well documented cases, maintain that they are of the same stock as the Somali but descend from small numerically weak lineage groups which were reduced to servitude by more powerful enemies. In support of these claims, Midgaan informants have produced genealogies tracing descent from Dir, the founder of the Dir clan familiy. Some Tumaal race descent from Darood founder of the noble Darood Somali clan family''

The only collective genetic data done on them is the one done by I.M Lewis and Goldsmith:

Goldsmith and I. M. Lewis (1958) say that the hunter and artisan castes among the Somali show no obvious physical differences from the “noble” Somali, speak the same language, are culturally similar, and that there are no “strong traditions” of their having had a separate origin. In addition, these authors report no significant differences between the Somali and their associated castes (called sub) in ABO, MN, and Rhesus blood group distribution, although the castes are endogamous and have presumably long been so.

And they concluded that their Bondsmen (Sab) sample was identitical to the other Somali clans:

our sab sample is thus virtually identical with that of the Somali....our results suggest that in serological characters there is no difference between those of the sab and those of noble Somali.

Blood sample ain't genetic samples.Stop the cap, the Madhibaan are Yemenis & distinct Somali group group that merged together

 

[Idilinaa]

I was always somewhat aware of this and how Arabians, like Somalis, have a similar aversion toward the crafts and "working with their hands" but didn't realize it was near exactly identical to the taboo among Horners:

Near Eastern Tribal Societies During the Nineteenth Century: Economy, Society and Politics Between Tent and Town - Google Search

Blacksmithing, masonry, carpentry, tanning and pottery-work. "True Arabs" hate doing it, ostracize those who do as their own separate sort of caste and do not intermarry with them, at least this was the case for centuries until very recently. A lot of the crafts in their societies was done either by these specific castes, Jews who often occupied this sort of position in Arabian society or ajanabis like Banyans (Indians). This was true even in Yemen:

History of Arabia, Ancient and Modern:

books.google.ae

Arabian Nights and Daze

This book follows a United States Foreign Service couple as they renew an official presence in Yemen. Arriving three years after the 1967 closure of the American embassy in Sanaa, the couple experimented with this unique form of "diplomacy under a foreign flag" when they opened up and managed...

books.google.ae

This is strikingly the same custom as Horner Cushites and Ethiosemites who ostracize blacksmiths, tanners, masons, carpenters and the like the same way. The Beta Israel, for example, are one such group who apparently formed their own unique sect of the local Ethiopian Orthodoxy some mistake for "Judaism" because of how they were ostracized by the rest of Northern Ethiopian society for being artisans. Somalis have many such groups like the Tumaal, Yibir, Madhiban, and some Benadiri Gibil-Madow subtribes like the Kafari of Marko who handled work like blacksmithing and general artisanal work in the coastal towns. Though Somalis also add hunters and soothsayers to the mix. Though, interestingly, in Somali coastal towns and society as a whole the artisans seem to be entirely ethnic Somalis, and artisans, of any kind, among other Horners are also all native as far as I know. Arabs do differ from us in the single respect that they seem more willing to let ajanabis fill the roll of the "low-caste" native Arab artisans and the Jews who are pretty much native Arabians in everything but religion and a few haplogroups and very minor autosomal signals.

However, I do wonder at the possibility that some of the artisanal groups in the Horn originally had a foreign origin from places like the Fertile Crescent and India then gradually assimilated until they were genetically indistinguishable from the natives. There has to be some reason why some of these groups in our region have a Jewish origin myth given that, in Arabia, Jews are outright known to often be crafts people and the most skilled native crafts people at that:

The Road to Redemption

Since the rise of Islam, Jews have been living in the Yemen as the only non-Muslim minority. Their status, never enviable, deteriorated in the twentieth century as the Imam Yahya sought to maintain the full force of Islamic law and local custom. The attempts to create a Jewish National Home in...

books.google.ae

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You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

There is no real taabo or aversion against cratfsmanship when it comes to Somalis as a whole. Unlike say the way there is a real taboo and aversian against fish eating.

This idea is born out of a misconception by orientalists who failed to understand the socio-economic differences among Somalis. A Nomad/Farmer who's chief concern is finding pasture and/or producing food for survival , has no value or economic cap space for craftsmanship outside of crafting basic everyday tools and items they need which they relegate to a few bondsmen.

This is why unlike Arabs they don't outsource artisan craftsman activities to foreigners. Infact no Horn of African groups do that as you pointed out. It has to do with subsistence economics:

Herbert Lewis explains this in his study on the origins of the artisan groups among Horners including Somalis:

The fact that these specialists are few in number might be taken as an indication that they are survivals of earlier peoples. However their distribution is so even among all Cushitic groups that another explanation must be sought. Possibly it may be found in the economics of craft specialization among these types of societies. Undoubtedly each community can afford only a few such workers

But this is entirely different in an Urban town/city, from an urban point of view where they live in fixed settlements and neither raise livestock, nor farm much land , their value lies in craftsmanship and trade/commerce.

This is why most of the craftsmanship/artisan activities are dominated by Gibil Madow Somali urban clans on the Benadiri coast town. When Abgaal and Bimaal entered to controll the urban towns a section of them took up Artisan/Craftsman activities: Giungi and Kaafari

This is also seen within the city of Harar in the 1800s where Somalis are the main craftsmans/artisans: The History of Harar and Harari:

To concretize this relationship, here are some examples; Burton’s description of the population of the city of Harar shows there were 2500 Somalis engaged in different activities (Burton, R., 1956). The spatial organization of the city and the quarters also has some ethnic stratification. Accordingly, the Somalis were predominantly found in the Suqtat Bari, engaged in occupations such as handicraft, smithery and leatherwork.

Is why Hararis name for Somali is ''Tumur'', their pronounciation of ''Tumaal'' and their word Blacksmith is a borrowing from from that ''Tumtu''

 

[Idilinaa]

Blood sample ain't genetic samples.Stop the cap, the Madhibaan are Yemenis & distinct Somali group group that merged together

That's quite the moronic statement. People's blood carry their genes. Genetic tests either use a sample of blood, hair, skin, amniotic fluid, or other tissue.

Madhiban & other Sab groups are just plain old Somali in every way.

 

[Shimbiris]

That's quite the moronic statement. People's blood carry their genes. Genetic tests either use a sample of blood, hair, skin, amniotic fluid, or other tissue.

Madhiban & other Sab groups are just plain old Somali in every way.

To be fair to Drobbah, blood-tests can be misleading and they could have some admixture once autosomal DNA samples are taken as well as uniparental results are shown. Those results do, however, imply that the likelihood they're much admixed is low. It's also clear just from looking at them that these groups just seem like mostly pure Somalis:

Sounds like nonsense to me, walaal. Like I said, this is an ancient caste with cognates in other Horn African ethnic groups, even Omotics. And the words for things like metal in Somali are of seemingly Ethiosemitic in origin. Their caste clearly spread from within the Horn. But it is entirely possible they assimilated ajanabis overtime due to being out-casted by other Somalis. But that being said, all the Tumaal I've heard of or seen look like normal Geeljires:



As you can see, nothing remarkable about their looks. I've never read anything in any ethnological book on Somali territories that noted something off about them phenotypically either.

Agreed. Funny enough, here are historical images of Tumaal men from the 20th century, one of which is used on their Wikipedia page:

View attachment 210899

View attachment 210900

How Turkish looking! Rofl. Compare them to some Isaaqs from the time:

View attachment 210901

View attachment 210902

More robust than current day Somalis due to diet but otherwise generic geeljires. And here are the cognates in other Horn groups for their caste:

View attachment 210903
People are making more of these saxiibs than there is. They're just a continuation of an ancient and unfortunate Cushitic tradition that got passed onto Xabashis and Omotics as well. I wouldn't be surprised if some mixed with ajanabis, probably more recently, due to being refused marriage by other Somalis but their roots are clearly indigenous.

@Psychologist is also a Madhiban and keeps up with the commercial DNA results of the out-caste groups and I remember him not saying anything was off about their results. In fact, most are apparently E-V32:

Link to his post

He himself only shows some elevated "Ethiopian" because of known recent Ethiopian ancestry. Think Xabash or Oromo. Like, his family knows about it.

 

[Idilinaa]

To be fair to Drobbah, blood-tests can be misleading and they could have some admixture once autosomal DNA samples are taken as well as uniparental results are shown. Those results do, however, imply that the likelihood they're much admixed is low. It's also clear just from looking at them that these groups just seem like mostly pure Somalis:

You have to see from the context that the so called Noble Somali clans rarely intermarry with them as to enforce strict social differences , if they did have admixture it would definitely be apparent in the test samples. One thing the study points out:

Since there are no main cultural differences, and no strong traditions of seperate origin, it would seem that only comparative study of their physical characteristics can throw light on their origins. Miscegenetation is almost, if not entirely forbidden, so that were the sab originally possesed of different physical characters to the Somali these differences should still be evident. To the casual observer most sab in Northern Somaliland look much the same physically as Somali

 

[The alchemist]

Madhiban, Tumaal, Yibir is not 1 clan lineage or related to eachother, these are umbrella occupational names for certain bondsmen Somali groups. The bondsmen groups are scattered widely across the whole Somali regions. It is incorrect to call them a caste, they are bondsmen and they are attached to other Somali clans as their patron/protectors:

The sab live scatttered all over Northern Somalilan in real or putative patri lineages on a pattern similar, though reduced, to those of their noble Somali (Ajji) protectors. In different regions they are known locally by the names of the eponyms of the small agnatic lineage groups into which they are divided, rather than their occupational classification as Midgan, Tumaal and Yibir. Ultimitely, however iti is as these and, collectively, as sab, that they are described. In the north the two largest Midgaan lineage groups are the Muuse Diiriye in the west and Midhiban in the east.


They all claim descent from Noble Somali clans and argue that they were weaker lineages pushed into their role of bondsmen:

''Some Sab informants also, referring to well documented cases, maintain that they are of the same stock as the Somali but descend from small numerically weak lineage groups which were reduced to servitude by more powerful enemies. In support of these claims, Midgaan informants have produced genealogies tracing descent from Dir, the founder of the Dir clan familiy. Some Tumaal race descent from Darood founder of the noble Darood Somali clan family''

The only collective genetic data done on them is the one done by I.M Lewis and Goldsmith:

Goldsmith and I. M. Lewis (1958) say that the hunter and artisan castes among the Somali show no obvious physical differences from the “noble” Somali, speak the same language, are culturally similar, and that there are no “strong traditions” of their having had a separate origin. In addition, these authors report no significant differences between the Somali and their associated castes (called sub) in ABO, MN, and Rhesus blood group distribution, although the castes are endogamous and have presumably long been so.

And they concluded that their Bondsmen (Sab) sample was identitical to the other Somali clans:

our sab sample is thus virtually identical with that of the Somali....our results suggest that in serological characters there is no difference between those of the sab and those of noble Somali.

I know that the marginalized clans are under an umbrella. I usually call them Gaboye. The guy I talked about was a Madhiban, not Tumal, Yibir, or what have you. I know one other guy, from a non-genetic setting, and he is a mix of all those groups, which leads me to believe the Gaboye if living in geographic proximity, have a higher chance of mixing with each other. But that's just one case, not 0something I claim strongly. But this guy, just like this Madhiban from FTDNA, also seems to have a MENA admixture. So we can expect highly Somali DNA with minor, but significant Arabian ancestry.

I don't like the word caste myself because it has a disgusting Indian influence. But we have to be real and say it how it is, my specific definition of caste, in the very rare instance I use it (I just go for 'marginalized' usually) is 'endogamous ranked specialist group'.

 

[Idilinaa]

I know that the marginalized clans are under an umbrella. I usually call them Gaboye. The guy I talked about was a Madhiban, not Tumal, Yibir, or what have you. I know one other guy, from a non-genetic setting, and he is a mix of all those groups, which leads me to believe the Gaboye if living in geographic proximity, have a higher chance of mixing with each other. But that's just one case, not 0something I claim strongly. But this guy, just like this Madhiban from FTDNA, also seems to have a MENA admixture. So we can expect highly Somali DNA with minor, but significant Arabian ancestry.

I don't like the word caste myself because it has a disgusting Indian influence. But we have to be real and say it how it is, my specific definition of caste, in the very rare instance I use it (I just go for 'marginalized' usually) is 'endogamous ranked specialist group'.

They are actually collectivelly called the Sab, ( not be confused with SAB the raxanweyn ancestor). But they are not related to eachother lineage wise and are widely spread out living amongst different Somali clans. According them they were weaker lineages of Noble clans that that took up the role as Bondsmen in exchange for protection and patronship from the more powerful clans.

The only genetic data we have on them collectively is the one i shared and it shows them to be identical to other Somalis . Which is no suprise since they are physically and culturally the same other Somalis and have no traditions of seperate origins.

It's not about liking the word ''Caste'' or not. If they are a caste by all means all call them that. But they are not , the term is more about the accuracy on what their role and position is. As the same study i linked points out:

known to free-born Somali as Sab have frequently been described as low caste but they are more correctly bondsmen

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

@Shimbiris What do you think of the Yemeni lineage found among the Madhibaan?

 

[Idilinaa]

However, I do wonder at the possibility that some of the artisanal groups in the Horn originally had a foreign origin from places like the Fertile Crescent and India then gradually assimilated until they were genetically indistinguishable from the natives. There has to be some reason why some of these groups in our region have a Jewish origin myth given that, in Arabia, Jews are outright known to often be crafts people and the most skilled native crafts people at that:

Are you talking about Yibir? Jewish/Hebrew notions is is something made up by them albeit ''recently'' around the 1970s to dignify their own status. It is not something that other Somalis claimed or believe about them:

As a anthropologist studying them points this out:

According to Virginia Luling, the 'Hebrew' idea is not an anti-Semitic invention by others, but was and is maintained by the Yibr themselves, who have found in this a way of dignifying their outcast status

When in reality they are the most looked down upon out of all the Sab groups because of their Pagan affilitations , thats what Somali tradition of Bucur Bayr shows. Yibir were most likely priest group that were previously pillars of the old religous cult prior to Islam

Which is strenghten by another thing observed in Rendille who are closely related group who broke off from Tunni/Garre Somalis have a Yibir group among them:

Viriginia Luling goes on to explain:

“An important ritual grouping among the Rendille is the Ibire (sg. Ibir) - evidently the same word as the Somali Yibir. The Ibire are men from certain lineages who enjoy high religious statues – in fact the Rendille are divided into Ibire and Wakhkamure, who are the rest of the male population, in a way reminiscent of the traditional Somali distinction between Wadaado and Waranleh. The Ibire however are chiefly respected and feared for the power of their curse. Since their position is central in Rendille society, this is always exercised deviants, to maintain justice and the Social order. And yet these pillars of society share a name with the despised anti-social vagabonds among the Somali. But the Somali Yibir also have extraordinary powers attributed to them, and are feared for the power of the curse.”22


I would also argue that it's most likely the same for Beta Isreal among Habeshas from the evidence i've seen in both texts and culture. They were Pagan Agaw that end up linking themselves to Hebrew/Jewishness link to dignify their status with a more abrahamic faith.

 

[The alchemist]

They are actually collectivelly called the Sab, ( not be confused with SAB the raxanweyn ancestor). But they are not related to eachother lineage wise and are widely spread out living amongst different Somali clans. According them they were weaker lineages of Noble clans that that took up the role as Bondsmen in exchange for protection and patronship from the powerful clans.

The only genetic data we have on them collectively is the one i shared and it shows them to be identical to other Somalis . Which is no suprise since they physically and culturally the same other Somalis and have no traditions of seperate origins.

It's not about liking the word ''Caste'' or not. If they are a caste by all means all call them that. But they are not , the term is more about the accuracy on what their role and position is. As the same study i linked points out:

I know they are separate groups living across a wide area and claim their own lineages, for sure, that is not a contention I had. Genetically, they will be mostly Somali, for sure, that is a given, and Somali in identity. But we've seen, similar to this guy I have on my relative list, a few of them have some elevated Y-DNA of J compared to the Somali average, from a heuristic non-formal perspective. Whether that plays a hand in their artisanal specialist occupational status is another thing, but an interesting correlation to investigate. To me, this is just another inquiry into a Somali demographic.

 

[Idilinaa]

I know they are separate groups living across a wide area and claim their own lineages, for sure, that is not a contention I had. Genetically, they will be mostly Somali, for sure, that is a given, and Somali in identity. But we've seen, similar to this guy I have on my relative list, a few of them have some elevated Y-DNA of J compared to the Somali average, from a heuristic non-formal perspective. Whether that plays a hand in their artisanal specialist occupational status is another thing, but an interesting correlation to investigate. To me, this is just another inquiry into a Somali demographic.

They claim lineages to various noble Somali clans, Dir , Darood , Hawiye etc.

Bring a study or an objective test on them as a collective, thats you determine things. The larger the samples the better. I attempted to provide that, anything else i see is just speculations and unconfirmeable, uncontrolled anecdotes.

If you want to know what play hand in their artisanal specialization i explained it using another study by Herbert Lewis investigating into the origins of Horn of African artisan groups. Believe it or not this is not specific to Somalis you can observe it across the Horn among habesha, oromos, farmers etc and it concluded while controlling for different factors, that their origins lie in the economics of crafts specilizations in the regions substinence economy, feel free to look into it:

Herbert Lewis explains this in his study on the origins of the artisan groups among Horners including Somalis:

The fact that these specialists are few in number might be taken as an indication that they are survivals of earlier peoples. However their distribution is so even among all Cushitic groups that another explanation must be sought. Possibly it may be found in the economics of craft specialization among these types of societies. Undoubtedly each community can afford only a few such workers

It makes sense, you can beat metal and iron and die of starvation the next morning or you can be more cheifly concerned with looking for water and producing/cultivating more food so you can live another day. Have your pick?

So it's not hard to see how they would relagate this to a few and the weaker groups/lineages among them got tasked with it.

 

[The alchemist]

They claim lineages to various noble Somali clans, Dir , Darood , Hawiye etc.

Bring a study or an objective test on them as a collective, thats you determine things. The larger the samples the better. I attempted to provide that, anything else i see is just speculations and unconfirmeable, uncontrolled anecdotes.

If you want to know what play hand in their artisanal specialization i explained it using another study by Herbert Lewis investigating into the origins of Horn of African artisan groups. Believe it or not this is not specific to Somalis you can observe it across the Horn among habesha, oromos, farmers etc and it concluded while controlling for different factors, that their origins lie in the economics of crafts specilizations in the regions substinence economy, feel free to look into it:



It makes sense, you can beat metal and iron and die of starvation the next morning or you can be more cheifly concerned with looking for water and producing/cultivating more food so you can live another day. Have your pick?

So it's not hard to see how they would relagate this to a few and the weaker groups/lineages among them got tasked with it.

We work with what we have and strongly state that it is all in a speculative range, even your ethnographic works by those westerners that you postulate to be an "objective" position about the Somali condition within a conversation about a still persisting social stratification, that mind you, is known by the majority of average Somalis.

I know this is a thing all over the Horn of Africa, not even only among Cushites either, Omotics have the exact same thing (a study on the Aaris pushes this phenomenon thousands of years back in time). They all have similar myths and conditions placed upon those marginalized artisan classes -- I posted a nice document about it here on two occasions. It's not some recent thing whatsoever. We definitely had similar types of specialized conditionalities to some minority sections even prior to these noble clans we belong to even existing. This is an ancient tradition that in a way tried to diversify and keep the balance of an economic environmental interaction subsistence packages reaffirmed by a clearly uniform mythological framework that stretches throughout populations that are geographically and ancestrally distinct.