Female Supporters of FGM March In Gambia! They Want It Legalized

[Angelina]

Not divided the mu'tamad of the madhab is that it's obligatory

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Now, with that being clear, let me ask the gents: @AdoonkaAlle @Berke
If it is not obligatory, the madaahib are not necessitating it as a fardh, and there are no derived medically known healthy benefits from scientifically available research, as of yet, then what is the reason for its practice?

Postscript:
I am aware of health risks to women by the fircawni type. The gaalo perspectives, and what adults do for beautification purposes have no bearing on the matter, and are well beyond the scope.

@Berke has already answered the first part regarding the stances of madhabs, so i will focus more on the latter question that you raised. Just to emphasize, medical health benefit has never been a reason why people carried out circumcision in the past. It's only in our times that this has been used as an argument in order to justify cultural traditions in the eyes of western ethics. A sort of an appeasement/defence tactic to shield these practices from western criticisms.

The reason why there's no study about the health benefits of female circumcision has to do with the cultural context of the science in question. All the official international bodies, western countries etc have funded massive research programs into the harms of the practice, these initial assumptions which search for harms are going to influence the outcomes. This is why you will not find any studies show casing any health benefits whatsoever from these official bodies. So the cultural context of science shapes the sort of studies one will find.


Now if you were to look at countries where female circumcision is practised like in egypt, malaysia etc you will find studies showing health benefits of female circumcision. Unfortunately these researchers from such countries where female circumcision is the norm do not have influence over the scientific literature, global health policy etc as opposed to gaalo, hence the status quo of there being no health benefits


Nevertheless it's possible to find health benefits associated with it, you just need to frame it differently. There are similar procedures carried out in western nations under the label FGCS (female genital cosmetic surgery) which are comparable to female circumcision. So you can look at the health benefits attached to fgcs , as both of these types of modification have significant overlap.


As you're aware the communities that practice female circumcision also carry out male circumcision meaning their motivations for practicing both types are similar. Among the many reasons for them are : ritual purification, rite of passage, cultural custom, aesthetics, religious requirement etc.



​

 

[Berke]

So, if a child was not circumcised, she would be sinning?

Who is she? Did I not already say that it's an obligation on the parents and if they abandon they are sinning?

A child is sinning for not circumcising himself? Comm'n. You don't sound genuine, you gotta be trolling

In the case of a lady in her twenties, who converts to Islam, is she required to have the operation?

I'm not faqih. These types of questions are better asked by actual scholars. I don’t even know what they got to do with the discussion we were having about the obligation of the circumcision

 

[Angelina]

It's fard on the parents. Yes if they don't do(circumcise their children), they are sinning according to the aforementioned madhabs

You’re not a scholar, hence talking this way is unbecoming. This is a Shafi Fatwa concerning the topic. It isn’t black and white:

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

@

𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈​

read this. It fits into what you’re saying. This is from a Shafi section of the site that only deals with Shafi perspective.

It’s a bit mad how I was demonized on here when I was literally saying the same thing but with regards to the context in Africa, especially the highlighted parts.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Hanbali madhab

In Habbali, could you locate the text in Arabic where it outlines its being fardh?

Let us not fall out, we are just having an intelligent conversation, as rational beings.

 

[Angelina]

In Habbali, could you locate the text in Arabic here it outlines its being fardh?

It’s confusing. When you look at the Shafi Fatwa I showed, they allude that the Hanbali opinion is that it isn’t fard and argue that because a lot of cultures has distorted it, people are free to follow the Hanbali and Hanafi view.

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

Who is she? Did I not already say that it's an obligation on the parents and if they abandon they are sinning?

A child is sinning for not circumcising himself? Comm'n. You don't sound genuine, you gotta be trolling

I'm not faqih. These types of questions are better asked by actual scholars. I don’t even know what they got to do with the discussion we were having about the obligation of the circumcision

What I mean is, if it is fardh, every Muslima would have to adhere to it, even if parents have not done, or converted; would you agree?

 

[Angelina]

@AdoonkaAlle

I’m curious as to what your view of this Fatwa which also used the term ‘mutilation’ which you regarded as racist. Maybe you can write a lecture to this Shafi Fatwa site and lecture them about how racist and loaded the word ‘mutilation’ is.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Berke]

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

In Habbali, could you locate the text in Arabic where it outlines its being fardh?

Let us not fall out, we are just having an intelligent conversation.

و يجب ختان ( أنثى ) بأخذ جلدة فوق محل الإيلاج تشبه عرف الديك ، ويستحب أن لا تؤخذ كلها نصا ، لحديث { اخفضي ولا تنهكي ، فإنه أنضر للوجه وأحظى عند الزوج } .

شرح منتهى الإرادات​

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

و يجب ختان ( أنثى ) بأخذ جلدة فوق محل الإيلاج تشبه عرف الديك ، ويستحب أن لا تؤخذ كلها نصا ، لحديث { اخفضي ولا تنهكي ، فإنه أنضر للوجه وأحظى عند الزوج } .

شرح منتهى الإرادات​

Could you reference the book source?

 

[Berke]

Could you reference the book source?

إسلام ويب - شرح منتهى الإرادات - كتاب الطهارة - باب التسوك وغيره من سنن الفطرة- الجزء رقم1

ويجب ختان ذكر بأخذ جلدة الحشفة وقال جمع إن اقتصر على أكثرها جاز و يجب ختان أنثى بأخذ جلدة فوق محل الإيلاج تشبه عرف الديك ويستحب أن لا تؤخذ كلها نصا لحديث اخفضي ولا تنهكي فإنه أنضر للوجه وأحظى عند الزوج رواه الطبراني والحاكم عن الضحاك بن قيس مرفوعا وللزوج جبر زوجته المسلمة عليه...

www.islamweb.net

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

@Berke has already answered the first part regarding the stances of madhabs, so i will focus more on the latter question that you raised. Just to emphasize, medical health benefit has never been a reason why people carried out circumcision in the past. It's only in our times that this has been used as an argument in order to justify cultural traditions in the eyes of western ethics. A sort of an appeasement/defence tactic to shield these practices from western criticisms.

The reason why there's no study about the health benefits of female circumcision has to do with the cultural context of the science in question. All the official international bodies, western countries etc have funded massive research programs into the harms of the practice, these initial assumptions which search for harms are going to influence the outcomes. This is why you will not find any studies show casing any health benefits whatsoever from these official bodies. So the cultural context of science shapes the sort of studies one will find.


Now if you were to look at countries where female circumcision is practised like in egypt, malaysia etc you will find studies showing health benefits of female circumcision. Unfortunately these researchers from such countries where female circumcision is the norm do not have influence over the scientific literature, global health policy etc as opposed to gaalo, hence the status quo of there being no health benefits


Nevertheless it's possible to find health benefits associated with it, you just need to frame it differently. There are similar procedures carried out in western nations under the label FGCS (female genital cosmetic surgery) which are comparable to female circumcision. So you can look at the health benefits attached to fgcs , as both of these types of modification have significant overlap.


As you're aware the communities that practice female circumcision also carry out male circumcision meaning their motivations for practicing both types are similar. Among the many reasons for them are : ritual purification, rite of passage, cultural custom, aesthetics, religious requirement etc.
​

Are you of the view it is fardh / wajib?

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

إسلام ويب - شرح منتهى الإرادات - كتاب الطهارة - باب التسوك وغيره من سنن الفطرة- الجزء رقم1

ويجب ختان ذكر بأخذ جلدة الحشفة وقال جمع إن اقتصر على أكثرها جاز و يجب ختان أنثى بأخذ جلدة فوق محل الإيلاج تشبه عرف الديك ويستحب أن لا تؤخذ كلها نصا لحديث اخفضي ولا تنهكي فإنه أنضر للوجه وأحظى عند الزوج رواه الطبراني والحاكم عن الضحاك بن قيس مرفوعا وللزوج جبر زوجته المسلمة عليه...

www.islamweb.net

I thank you. Let me read that.

 

[Berke]

You’re not a scholar, hence talking this way is unbecoming. This is a Shafi Fatwa concerning the topic. It isn’t black and white:

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

@

𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈​

read this. It fits into what you’re saying. This is from a Shafi section of the site that only deals with Shafi perspective.

It’s a bit mad how I was demonized on here when I was literally saying the same thing but with regards to the context in Africa, especially the highlighted parts.

I can't access the link to the website you shared

 

[Angelina]

@AdoonkaAlle

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I wasn’t going to message you but I become incensed when I saw them use it and here I was being attacked left and right for using that term.

 

[Angelina]

I believe Adoonka should send Shafi scholars from Islamqa emails for using the words ‘mutilation’ and FGM. Here is his reasoning for mostly attacking my stances:

Meanwhile on Islamqa:

Wow wow, they even used the word ‘gross mutilation’ look at them dehumanizing Muslim women! Please complain! Issue these Ustaads a piece of your mind!

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@AdoonkaAlle

I’m curious as to what your view of this Fatwa which also used the term ‘mutilation’ which you regarded as racist. Maybe you can write a lecture to this Shafi Fatwa site and lecture them about how racist and loaded the word ‘mutilation’ is.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Who says a word by itself is racist ?? i stated that the term fgm is racist as it's ONLY utilised to describe non-white body modifications despite the overlapping similarities to white body modifications. It makes distinctions based on the colour of those carrying out the procedures, hence why i called it racist & ethnocentric.

Are you of the view it is fardh / wajib?

I view it as a sunnah.

 

[Angelina]

Who says a word by itself is racist ?? i stated that the term fgm is racist as it's ONLY utilised to describe non-white body modifications despite the overlapping similarities to white body modifications. It makes distinctions based on the colour of those carrying out the procedures, hence why i called it racist & ethnocentric.



I view it as a sunnah.

Meanwhile:

 

[𐒋𐒖𐒆𐒔𐒖𐒕𐒈]

إسلام ويب - شرح منتهى الإرادات - كتاب الطهارة - باب التسوك وغيره من سنن الفطرة- الجزء رقم1

ويجب ختان ذكر بأخذ جلدة الحشفة وقال جمع إن اقتصر على أكثرها جاز و يجب ختان أنثى بأخذ جلدة فوق محل الإيلاج تشبه عرف الديك ويستحب أن لا تؤخذ كلها نصا لحديث اخفضي ولا تنهكي فإنه أنضر للوجه وأحظى عند الزوج رواه الطبراني والحاكم عن الضحاك بن قيس مرفوعا وللزوج جبر زوجته المسلمة عليه...

www.islamweb.net

Thanks again for the link, al Bahuti is revered authority in Islam.

I view it as a sunnah.

Thank you. I think you owe Baroness @Angelina an apology.

 

[Angelina]

@AdoonkaAlle

No Muslim uses the term ‘FGM’

Meanwhile:

I really do believe you need to also email them as well.