Burden of Proof

[KinsiHilaac]

i don't agree with this. Ok, so you said "atheism is the lack of belief in God". we can rephrase this and it becomes "atheism is the belief in the claim that God does't exist". Now, to be an atheist you are making a claim, and every claim requires a proof. Therefore to be an atheist you must provide proof for your claim ( God not existing).

For me to type to you, I would need a phone, which depends on the resources mined to manufacture that phone, which depends on the formation of the earth to produce those resources, and so on till you reach the universe. We are all aware that the universe was created. At the end is god because what is after the universe?. An infinite list of dependencies is not an option because that would lead to the infinite regression fallacy. Thus, there must be a self-sufficient maker. But how would we recognise this autonomous being as Allah? This only makes up half of the justification for Islam.

find me a hole in this logic

Your argument makes sense but the possibility of something existing. In the manner that you explained above. Doesn’t necessarily mean that it does exist.

It does not logically follow that a fact exists simply because it may possibly exist--logically,
it just as possibly may not exist.

 

[Dualke]

@Omar del Sur how do muslims prove the Islamic God exists compared to other religions?

 

[Al hashimi]

Your argument makes sense but the possibility of something existing. In the manner that you explained above. Doesn’t necessarily mean that it does exist.

It does not logically follow that a fact exists simply because it may possibly exist--logically,
it just as possibly may not exist.

U ignored me prove that God doesnt exist

 

[Internet Nomad]

Your argument makes sense but the possibility of something existing. In the manner that you explained above. Doesn’t necessarily mean that it does exist.

It does not logically follow that a fact exists simply because it may possibly exist--logically,
it just as possibly may not exist.

• Im saying there is no other possibility of anything else existing without a necessary being.
• As i said everything is dependent on something else.
• we know nothing can come from something.
• We also know that there cannot be a infinite regress of dependencies
• So it would be a logical conclusion a independent being which is dependent on nothing started this chain of dependencies with the big bang.

 

[Al hashimi]

Thats called the cosmological argument

 

[Internet Nomad]

@Omar del Sur how do muslims prove the Islamic God exists compared to other religions?

Quran & sunnah and logic

 

[Dualke]

Quran & sunnah and logic

Elaborate on logic

 

[induction]

Your argument makes sense but the possibility of something existing. In the manner that you explained above. Doesn’t necessarily mean that it does exist.

It does not logically follow that a fact exists simply because it may possibly exist--logically,
it just as possibly may not exist.

actually my goal in this whole argument was not to prove God exists. It was just to argue that both theists and atheists are making claims and both of them should provide their own proofs.

 

[Internet Nomad]

@Omar del Sur how do muslims prove the Islamic God exists compared to other religions?

Atheist like to claim that there is over 3000 religions so therefore you claim your religion to be true is dumb.
However with a bit of logic we can throw out many religions.
Here would be a criteria
1. It cannot be a ethnic religion because why would god create all of man to help a single ethnicity
2. It cannot be a dead religion.
3. It cannot be a form of ancestor/ animal worship why would the creator of the universe be a dead animal.
4. It cannot have any contradictions.
5. It must have a strong argument for why it is real.

with all these criteria you would pretty much wipe out all religions and be left with the big world religions like Islam, Judaism and Christianity

 

[Dualke]

Atheist like to claim that there is over 3000 religions so therefore you claim your religion to be true is dumb.
However with a bit of logic we can throw out many religions.
Here would be a criteria
1. It cannot be a ethnic religion because why would god create all of man to help a single ethnicity
2. It cannot be a dead religion.
3. It cannot be a form of ancestor/ animal worship why would the creator of the universe be a dead animal.
4. It cannot have any contradictions.
5. It must have a strong argument for why it is real.

with all these criteria you would pretty much wipe out all religions and be left with the big world religions like Islam, Judaism and Christianity

I agree with 4 but the rest aren't valid reasons. An omnipotent being creates what is moral and immoral, so if God willed the world to appeal to only a certain ethnicity for example there is not anything wrong with that as he determines what is good and bad.

 

[Dualke]

am not super knowledgable but i think all the different "Gods" of the different religions have the same underlying properties. So, once you abstract away all the minor details then the Gods basically become the same (an immortal being, absolutely powerful, etc).

This, the way I see it the only way Islam can prove it's the one true religion is by the follownig:
It's the only religion to have an omnipotent being
It's the only religion without any blatant contradictions

But if another religion were to fill those two requirements, how do we know Islam is the right one? Arguments based off morality is void as morality is nothing more than a subset of a God's wordly creation.

 

[Osiris1]

Atheist like to claim that there is over 3000 religions so therefore you claim your religion to be true is dumb.
However with a bit of logic we can throw out many religions.
Here would be a criteria
1. It cannot be a ethnic religion because why would god create all of man to help a single ethnicity
2. It cannot be a dead religion.
3. It cannot be a form of ancestor/ animal worship why would the creator of the universe be a dead animal.
4. It cannot have any contradictions.
5. It must have a strong argument for why it is real.

with all these criteria you would pretty much wipe out all religions and be left with the big world religions like Islam, Judaism and Christianity

Tbh, some of these aren’t really strong arguments. For example your first point you said it can’t be an ethnic religion yet you include Judaism as a viable option for a religion being true.
Your second point also doesn’t disprove a religion being true, for example in Islam we believe Yawm al-Qiyamah will not happen until Muslims barely practice Islam. Islam began as a strange religion and will return to being a strange religion.
Forth point I agree with and fifth is self explanatory.

 

[Internet Nomad]

I agree with 4 but the rest aren't valid reasons. A omnipotent being creates what is moral and immoral so if God willed the world to appeal to only a certain ethnicity there is not really anything wrong with that

1. God creating a ethnic religion and we aren't part of that would give us no reason for us to be worshiping that god so this point is null.

2. God letting its religion die would mean that human overpowered the message of god. The theme in islam is constantly that people try to extinguish the light and he will keep on bringing it back by either book or messenger and Muhammad and Quran was the last final unchanged Message

3. If god died then he is not worthy of worship but killed him would be because that would become the all powerful.

4 we both agree with

5. He must have strong reason for why would worship god. Because if it cant convince us then he is not the all wise. Or why would we need a reason to worship him if he cant even convince us.

 

[Internet Nomad]

i thought none jews can still attain heaven. Also god says he will take back his message. Not that it would be abounded or wiped out. There is a difference on is willingly the other is overpowerment.

 

[Dualke]

1. God creating a ethnic religion and we aren't part of that would give us no reason for us to be worshiping that god so this point is null.

2. God letting its religion die would mean that human overpowered the message of god. The theme in islam is constantly that people try to extinguish the light and he will keep on bringing it back by either book or messenger and Muhammad and Quran was the last final unchanged Message

3. If god died then he is not worthy of worship but killed him would be because that would become the all powerful.

4 we both agree with

5. He must have strong reason for why would worship god. Because if it cant convince us then he is not the all wise. Or why would we need a reason to worship him if he cant even convince us.

None of your points disprove God's omnipotence. What if God intentionally wanted his religion to die out? What if God intentionally wanted people to exist for no specific reason? What if God doesn't want his message to be heard?
You understand what I'm getting at, the lines drawn for a religion being correct is arbitrary as the bound of validity is determined by the God that they worship. It's circular reasoning

 

[Internet Nomad]

None of your points disprove God's omnipotence. What if God intentionally wanted his religion to die out? What if God intentionally wanted people to exist for no specific reason? What if God doesn't want his message to be heard?
You understand what I'm getting at, the lines drawn for a religion being correct is arbitrary as the bound of validity is determined by the God that they worship. It's circular reasoning

1. In islam the final days it will die out but rn when god is still giving us a away of salvation we should take it.
2. If he created people for no reason then those people have no reason to worship him. Islam doesn't claim that but it invites everyone to success.
3. If god doesn't want to be heard then we have no reason to listen. Islam calls all of us to salah 5 times a day.

• The lines you drew made a god which is not worthy of worship. The lines i drew made a god which calls out to the people for success.
• Its not circular we only affirmed that if god had the opinions you shared then you should look to a different religion until you find out which makes sense and draws accurate picture of god.

You asked me how do i know islam is right out of all the 1000s of religions well the descriptions you said of that fictional god shows the criteria of which we should access him by and you showed us that god is not worthy of worship or is not real.

 

[hinters]

Atheists need to move on, we get it you're atheist.

 

[Dualke]

The lines you drew made a god which is not worthy of worship. The lines i drew made a god which calls out to the people for success.

What is worthy and what is unworthy is defined by God. If we were under the universe of a God that is ethno-religious or anything else you disagree with he would be just as worthy of worship as Allah

 

[Omar del Sur]

@Omar del Sur how do muslims prove the Islamic God exists compared to other religions?

You believe or you don't. I can't make you believe, it's Allah that makes you believe or not. And I am sitting out of debate on this thread. Scholars have warned against debating and then also I have some things I need to get done.

 

[Internet Nomad]

What is worthy and what is unworthy is defined by God. If we were under the universe of a God that is ethno-religious or anything else you disagree with he would be just as worthy of worship as Allah

I understand if god exist then he would be the objective morality. What i am saying what reason would YOU convert.