Burden of Proof

[Dualke]

I was in the middle of something. Now I have some down time. Okay.

How do I prove Islam? This is a weird question to me. To me, looking at creation is plenty of proof. But how do I convince a disbeliever? I don't.

This idea that there's this secret formula that we can use to convince kaffirs and make them Muslims... this just isn't something real. Nothing like that exists. It's Allah that guides or doesn't guide a person.

I don't really care about convincing non-Muslims. If I wanted to try to convince them, I'd be talking with non-Muslims. But this platform is mostly Muslim. I don't want to be like Zakir Naik who focuses a bunch on non-Muslims. I want to take Islam as the starting point then go from there, not focus a bunch on trying to convince non-Muslims.

I want to share a hadith.

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said to his uncle at the time of his death:
Make a profession of it that there is no god but Allah and I will bear testimony (of your being a Muslim) on the Day of judgment. But he (Abu Talib) refused to do so. Then Allah revealed this verse: " Verily thou canst not guide to the right path whom thou lovest. And it is Allah Who guideth whom He will and He knoweth best who are the guided" (xxviii. 56).

Sahih Muslim 25a - The Book of Faith - كتاب الإيمان - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

That's just how it is. If Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم couldn't make his uncle believe, why should we think that we can make people believe? We can point people in the right direction and Allah guides them or He doesn't.

So essentially you believe that people convert to Islam due to the will of God (i.e reveleational knowledge)
How do you determine what is revelational knowledge exactly?

 

[Omar del Sur]

So essentially you believe that people convert to Islam due to the will of God (i.e reveleational knowledge)
How do you determine what is revelational knowledge exactly?

What is revelational knowledge? Islam is the truth, Allah guides a person or He doesn't. If you believe, masha'Allah, if you don't then it's your problem. I'm not interesting in talking about "how do you determine revelational knowledge?". You believe or you don't, I'm not losing sleep if you don't.

 

[Journey.]

People have a fitrah we should help as many people out as possible. You saying they are recruited by shaytan only create a hostile environment where shaytan thrives. Have mercy not anger.

It isn't anger but just stating a fact. Shaytaan won over them and even after leaving the religion he uses them to serve his agenda.

 

[Garaad diinle]

I was in the middle of something. Now I have some down time. Okay.

How do I prove Islam? This is a weird question to me. To me, looking at creation is plenty of proof. But how do I convince a disbeliever? I don't.

This idea that there's this secret formula that we can use to convince kaffirs and make them Muslims... this just isn't something real. Nothing like that exists. It's Allah that guides or doesn't guide a person.

I don't really care about convincing non-Muslims. If I wanted to try to convince them, I'd be talking with non-Muslims. But this platform is mostly Muslim. I don't want to be like Zakir Naik who focuses a bunch on non-Muslims. I want to take Islam as the starting point then go from there, not focus a bunch on trying to convince non-Muslims.

I want to share a hadith.

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said to his uncle at the time of his death:
Make a profession of it that there is no god but Allah and I will bear testimony (of your being a Muslim) on the Day of judgment. But he (Abu Talib) refused to do so. Then Allah revealed this verse: " Verily thou canst not guide to the right path whom thou lovest. And it is Allah Who guideth whom He will and He knoweth best who are the guided" (xxviii. 56).

Sahih Muslim 25a - The Book of Faith - كتاب الإيمان - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) in English and Arabic

sunnah.com

That's just how it is. If Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم couldn't make his uncle believe, why should we think that we can make people believe? We can point people in the right direction and Allah guides them or He doesn't.

Real talk islamic talk that is. Your defiantly not wrong on that one. If miracles were the key to conversion fri'on would've been the first to convert but on the contrary he kept denying despite not one or two but multiple miracles. The people of qurash despite seeing the moon split in front of their eyes they still fought the muslimins. That being said it won't hurt to try and convince them after all some of them are lost and needs help.

 

[Internet Nomad]

It isn't anger but just stating a fact. Shaytaan won over them and even after leaving the religion he uses them to serve his agenda.

Your right some are agents of the devil unwillingly. However, some leave and see the reality of no god means nihilism and they want to come back but they have was was from the shaytan that tells them no. So the best thing to do is try and be logical with them.A lot of these people yearn for religion but they have some sort of conflict within them.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Real talk islamic talk that is. Your defiantly not wrong on that one. If miracles were the key to conversion fri'on would've been the first to convert but on the contrary he kept denying despite not one or two but multiple miracles. The people of qurash despite seeing the moon split in front of their eyes they still fought the muslimins. That being said it won't hurt to try an convince them after all some of them are lost and needs help.

There's an underlying mindset which I'm not really able to explain. I really need to study the material on this so I can explain it to people.

Basically, I'm sort of against debating. There's material out there that talks about this and explains my attitude towards it. But to my understanding, a lot of the early salaf were opposed to debating and warned against it. I'm sort of against it.

But then there are people who have written books on evidence for Islam and that sort of thing. I saw one on archaeological evidence for Islam, for example. Or there was a thread about Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم in the Bible. That kind of thing is out there and I think it is sort of its own area of research. If people have that kind of material and they can present it, I think it would be good to present that sort of thing to people who are questioning. I respect that sort of research but I haven't really studied that kind of thing. I'm more focused on other areas so I'm not good to talk to on that kind of thing.

 

[Kane]

There is the Material world, a physical world limited to our 5 senses. Where we use the scientific method ( discovered by a Muslim) to create models, to best describe how and why things work.

The models are always evolving and changing, example, gravity was once considered to be a pulling force. Until it was discovered to be a pushing force, by the use of new methods.

Then there is the immaterial world. a non physical world where science has no methods, no models, no tools or any explanation.
It’s where our souls, our consciousness God and spirit exist.

Your argument is ignorant, because it’s based on a false assumption that science is a limitless. Which makes you a believer of scientism, who mocks the believers of God the causer of all causes.

 

[TheProfessor]

If B claims to A that something exists,
B now has to prove to A that it exists

If B doesn´t succeed in proving that the thing exists

The most logical assumption that follows is that it doesn´t exist

This is the logic that should be applied when discussing the existence of a God

You think universe start with big bang but this is the question where did the Big Bang get the energy from if there nothing existed and why suddenly came to exist with out help. Just admit Allah exists look how this world is complex and everything have purpose and is not from fuckin accident. You simply have child mind anything scientist says u believe in. You probably thing ur ancestors came from monkey

 

[Garaad diinle]

There's an underlying mindset which I'm not really able to explain. I really need to study the material on this so I can explain it to people.

Basically, I'm sort of against debating. There's material out there that talks about this and explains my attitude towards it. But to my understanding, a lot of the early salaf were opposed to debating and warned against it. I'm sort of against it.

But then there are people who have written books on evidence for Islam and that sort of thing. I saw one on archaeological evidence for Islam, for example. Or there was a thread about Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم in the Bible. That kind of thing is out there and I think it is sort of its own area of research. If people have that kind of material and they can present it, I think it would be good to present that sort of thing to people who are questioning. I respect that sort of research but I haven't really studied that kind of thing. I'm more focused on other areas so I'm not good to talk to on that kind of thing.

I agree with you in that the vast majority of muslims shouldn't need or be required to debate non muslims. That is only the job of muslim schoolers who are familiar with all the various islamic discipline. You don't prove modern day medicine by preforming an operation or administering a medication that's the job of a doctor who've been studying it for years. Allah swt said in the quran

ادْعُ إِلَىٰ سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ ۖ وَجَادِلْهُمْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنْ ضَلَّ عَنْ سَبِيلِهِ ۖ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ

Invite to your Lord’s Way with wisdom and good advice, and debate with them in the most dignified manner. Your Lord is aware of those who stray from His path, and He is aware of those who are guided

Any debate should be seen from the perspective of da'wa rather than proving islam. For me Allah swt is a self-evident truth and i simply explain to non muslim what is obvious. I myself usually don't debate them nor do i care to do so but when i feel that they're misleading my muslim brethernes i usually intervene.

 

[DR OSMAN]

I am diest/agnostic i swing between the two depending on what I learn personally. But why I promote atheism is becuz I love how naturally they percieve the world not supernatural(prayers, rain dancing, ruqyah, etc), I think this thinking style is very productive and measurable against the supernatural approach when discussing this earthly reality.

Remember atheism is like theism it's a 'spectrum' or 'various range' from strong disbelief, weak disbelief and anywhere in between. The definition is a 'lack of belief' but how strong their disbelief is person to person as is the case with believers. Some r even militant(stalin) just like religious ppl have their wackos.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Internet Nomad I try my hardest not to misrepresent Islam thru my own ignorance and then argue against Islam based on that. But it's important we consider, evaluate, and reach our conclusions on other faiths and no faiths.

I believe if their is god, why does it have to be 1 way, why not infinite routes to common destination. This idea their is only 1 way disturbs me how a god can't accomodate an infinite way of understanding. But it's important we all know what is out there not live in a bubble and then put our kids in the same bubble, that's dishonest and if ur dishonest there, the question arises what else you been dishonest about, u will lose total credibility in my view thru the 'bubble' approaach.

 

[Internet Nomad]

@Internet Nomad I try my hardest not to misrepresent Islam thru my own ignorance and then argue against Islam based on that. But it's important we consider, evaluate, and reach our conclusions on other faiths and no faiths.

I believe if their is god, why does it have to be 1 way, why not infinite routes to common destination. This idea their is only 1 way disturbs me how a god can't accomodate an infinite way of understanding. But it's important we all know what is out there not live in a bubble and then put our kids in the same bubble, that's dishonest and if ur dishonest there, the question arises what else you been dishonest about, u will lose total credibility in my view thru the 'bubble' approaach.

As a Muslim, I understand and respect your concern about the idea that if there is only one way to reach God. In Islam, we believe that Allah (God) is the Most Merciful and All-Forgiving. However, we also believe that Allah has provided us with guidance through the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that outlines the path we should follow in order to achieve our ultimate goal of attaining closeness to God.

Could you please elaborate on the infinite ways to get to him part. Because what i understood was if god never guided us or just let us explore on our own we would of have been completely lost from his message a long time ago. Imagine god never sent down any phrophets or holy books. We would of been animal worshiping, Polytheist, idol worshipers and so on.

Its as if a pregnant mother went into the heart of a forest to give birth and left alone. Just for her to say there are many trails to get back home.

I think you over estimate human intelligence. We were born lost and if we weren't guided we would remain so.

Lastly, the bubble analogy is correct especially now a-days when if youchild is straight up not living in a non muslim nation they at least have access to the internet. Personally what strengthened my faith was apologetics seeing people debate and how much more rational it seemed over other religions or way of life.

 

[Internet Nomad]

I am diest/agnostic i swing between the two depending on what I learn personally. But why I promote atheism is becuz I love how naturally they percieve the world not supernatural(prayers, rain dancing, ruqyah, etc), I think this thinking style is very productive and measurable against the supernatural approach when discussing this earthly reality.

Remember atheism is like theism it's a 'spectrum' or 'various range' from strong disbelief, weak disbelief and anywhere in between. The definition is a 'lack of belief' but how strong their disbelief is person to person as is the case with believers. Some r even militant(stalin) just like religious ppl have their wackos.

Muslims also perceive the world naturally and thats why for so long muslims advanced the sciences its just the case we also believe in the unseen world. Creatures of higher dimensions. Tell me how does angels and demon pop up all throughout history independently in so many cultures across the world.

 

[DR OSMAN]

As a Muslim, I understand and respect your concern about the idea that if there is only one way to reach God. In Islam, we believe that Allah (God) is the Most Merciful and All-Forgiving. However, we also believe that Allah has provided us with guidance through the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) that outlines the path we should follow in order to achieve our ultimate goal of attaining closeness to God.

Could you please elaborate on the infinite ways to get to him part. Because what i understood was if god never guided us or just let us explore on our own we would of have been completely lost from his message a long time ago. Imagine god never sent down any phrophets or holy books. We would of been animal worshiping, Polytheist, idol worshipers and so on.

Its as if a pregnant mother went into the heart of a forest to give birth and left alone. Just for her to say there are many trails to get back home.

I think you over estimate human intelligence. We were born lost and if we weren't guided we would remain so.

Lastly, the bubble analogy is correct especially now a-days when if youchild is straight up not living in a non muslim nation they at least have access to the internet. Personally what strengthened my faith was apologetics seeing people debate and how much more rational it seemed over other religions or way of life.

What I mean by infinite routes but a common destination, many roads for example can take u to NYC Downtown, not just 1 road. If god is infinite, why is he limited to 1 understanding of him, why can't he accomodate multiple ways? religions limits god

 

[Internet Nomad]

What I mean by infinite routes but a common destination, many roads for example can take u to NYC Downtown, not just 1 road. If god is infinite, why is he limited to 1 understanding of him, why can't he accomodate multiple ways? religions limits god

If everyone has a distinct concept of God, then God would be a subjective concept. Since God is a subjective concept, you cannot criticise ancient Mayans sacrificing human life for their deity because that is their path to God, which would make God pointless in the view of people. God would be as meaningless as a food preference.

That is why, in the religon of Islam, we are given 99 names of Allah to help us understand him. We will never understand him since he is far more intricate than the human intellect can fathom, but it does help us understand him.

However Allah makes it clear that it is useless to fully comprehend him.

"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (Qur’aan Al-Ikhlaas 112:4)

لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ البَصِيرُ

…there is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer. (Qur’aan Ash-Shuraa 42:!1)

لاَّ تُدْرِكُهُ الأَبْصَارُ

No vision can grasp Him. (Qur’aan Al-An’aam 6:103)

TL;DR If everyone's journey to God is subjective, then the road to God is useless, and you have no reason to criticise anybody else's bad religion since "it's just their way to God."

 

[DR OSMAN]

If everyone has a distinct concept of God, then God would be a subjective concept. Since God is a subjective concept, you cannot criticise ancient Mayans sacrificing human life for their deity because that is their path to God, which would make God pointless in the view of people. God would be as meaningless as a food preference.

That is why, in the religon of Islam, we are given 99 names of Allah to help us understand him. We will never understand him since he is far more intricate than the human intellect can fathom, but it does help us understand him.

However Allah makes it clear that it is useless to fully comprehend him.

"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (Qur’aan Al-Ikhlaas 112:4)

لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْءٌ وَهُوَ السَّمِيعُ البَصِيرُ

…there is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer. (Qur’aan Ash-Shuraa 42:!1)

لاَّ تُدْرِكُهُ الأَبْصَارُ

No vision can grasp Him. (Qur’aan Al-An’aam 6:103)

TL;DR If everyone's journey to God is subjective, then the road to God is useless, and you have no reason to criticise anybody else's bad religion since "it's just their way to God."

I respect your willing to engage on tough topics and not be dismissive about genuine questions.

Allah apparently unique n different to creation according to your beliefs, this uniqueness is defined as he all living and doesn't die, eternal. Heaven/Hell share similar attributes to Allah, even tho u say their creation, either way they never die and will exist forever, why can't they claim god?

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Internet Nomad the other question, I have is. U say nothing is like Allah, so everything we can imagine will be dismissed by you to be allah, this leads to an infinite regression of nothingness also, becuz the only thing I can't imagine is nothingness. If u keep going down the path of dismissng everything, someone will end it with a statement that 'nothingness' only satisfies your god.

 

[Internet Nomad]

@Internet Nomad the other question, I have is. U say nothing is like Allah, so everything we can imagine will be dismissed by you to be allah, this leads to an infinite regression of nothingness also, becuz the only thing I can't imagine is nothingness. If u keep going down the path of dismissng everything, someone will end it with a statement that 'nothingness' only satisfies your god.

God is outside the realm of human logic this might sound weird but just hold on.

For us, time is a linear moving object that only moves in one way, yet to God, it all already happened. Even heaven, which is an infinite , God knows what will happen in the infinite future.

Another way to answer your question is that an ant will never understand the notion of a supernova since it has no frame of reference for such a thing. The ant can continue to guess, but it will never be able to envision it. This does not mean that a supernova does not exist.You may argue that humans have far better brain capacity than ants, and you are correct.
But, you are overestimating your mental power if you believe you can encompass an entity such as god with our feable brains.

 

[Internet Nomad]

I respect your willing to engage on tough topics and not be dismissive about genuine questions.

Allah apparently unique n different to creation according to your beliefs, this uniqueness is defined as he all living and doesn't die, eternal. Heaven/Hell share similar attributes to Allah, even tho u say their creation, either way they never die and will exist forever, why can't they claim god?

Thank you for the kindwords i like to engage these tough topics becasue it strenghtens my faith. For me its like how goats sharpen their horns off hard rocks.

Allah has multiple attributes which he needs to be a god.
Heaven and Hell do no share those for example Heaven and Hell was made by God.
In order for a entity to be a true God they cannot be made but be outside the boundry of time and be uncreated. Heaven and Hell had a start date unlike God.

 

[Boujie]

I could say the same to you, prove God doesn’t exist.

now we are back to where we came from, basically adding nothing of value to your argument of God’s noexistence.

yes the burden of proof lies upon the claimant and in this case YOU are making the claim that God does not exist, so where’s your proof?