Bantu Expansion

[MI]

Says the guy who refuses to read the archaeology of the Eyle or notice that the Boni are B!b1.

If I’m not reading that study wrong at least from the abstract(I didn’t go through the paywall) it has nothing to do with ethnology and forensic anthropology of the remains to deduce ancestry... I, like you, don’t believe that Somalis are truly “native” to the region much like Europeans aren’t native to Europe but are mostly sprung from Asian and Middle Eastern interlopers, the original, pure, ice age European hunter-gatherer but a memory. There is no actual true descendant population of whatever is actually native to the Horn. The Khoi-San or the Omotic-speaking groups are no more native than us. Bantu people especially are a very recent addition to the region. Besides, if I’m not mistaken isn’t it generally agreed upon by those in-the-know that the ”original” East African were Nilotes, similar to South Sudanese, but without Niger-Congo admixture?

 

[Apollo]

If I’m not reading that study wrong at least from the abstract(I didn’t go through the paywall) it has nothing to do with ethnology and forensic anthropology of the remains to deduce ancestry... I, like you, don’t believe that Somalis are truly “native” to the region much like Europeans aren’t native to Europe but are mostly sprung from Asian and Middle Eastern interlopers, the original, pure, ice age European hunter-gatherer but a memory. There is no actual true descendant population of whatever is actually native to the Horn. The Khoi-San or the Omotic-speaking groups are no more native than us. Bantu people especially are a very recent addition to the region. Besides, if I’m not mistaken isn’t it generally agreed upon by those in-the-know that the ”original” East African were Nilotes, similar to South Sudanese, but without Niger-Congo admixture?

MusIbr,

Don't even debate with this guy. He is a dishonest actor who already has set premises and won't budge despite all the data against his silly beliefs.

I don't know what happened to him, but he has a clear Anti-Somali agenda.

 

[MI]

The "not wholly" gives you wiggle room, but is also an admission.

I don’t understand your argument here. Them being mixed is a fine argument against their supposed “nativeness”. Take for example the Finnish people of Scandinavia, they have the highest amount of Western Hunter-Gatherer admixture in Europe, a type of early human that used to span the entirety of Europe. Can they then claim to be the “most native” in Europe and stake their claim to be from Italy to Poland even though their ancestors never did but the ancestors of modern Italians and Polish that melded into modern populations? It’s folly.

The true Italians are Finns?

Edit: Made a mistake.

 

[MI]

MusIbr,

Don't even debate with this guy. He is a dishonest actor who already has set premises and won't budge despite all the data against his silly beliefs.

I don't know what happened to him, but he has a clear Anti-Somali agenda.

I don’t know it doesn’t seem to me, at least not yet, that he is arguing in bad faith.

 

[Grant]

If I’m not reading that study wrong at least from the abstract(I didn’t go through the paywall) it has nothing to do with ethnology and forensic anthropology of the remains to deduce ancestry... I, like you, don’t believe that Somalis are truly “native” to the region much like Europeans aren’t native to Europe but are mostly sprung from Asian and Middle Eastern interlopers, the original, pure, ice age European hunter-gatherer but a memory. There is no actual true descendant population of whatever is actually native to the Horn. The Khoi-San or the Omotic-speaking groups are no more native than us. Bantu people especially are a very recent addition to the region. Besides, if I’m not mistaken isn’t it generally agreed upon by those in-the-know that the ”original” East African were Nilotes, similar to South Sudanese, but without Niger-Congo admixture?

I don’t understand your argument here. Them being mixed is a fine argument against their supposed “nativeness”. Take for example the Finnish people of Scandinavia, they have the highest amount of Western Hunter-Gatherer admixture in Europe, a type of early human that used to span the entirety of Europe. Can they then claim to be the “most native” in Europe and stake their claim to be from Italy to Poland even though their ancestors never did but the ancestors of modern Italians and Polish that melded into modern populations? It’s folly.

The true Italians are Finns?Edit: Made a mistake.

It's Apollo who says they are mixed.

Pottery and other typically Elay cultural materials were found well into the middle Holocene layer, indicating a continuous sequence, going back 20K. A separate study found that the teeth on the burials were too large to have been Samaale. And besides, they date to about 12 K. I believe the Eyle can claim to be the most native to the Buur Hakaba/Heybe area, especially as they have traditions of defeating the earliest Cushitic immigrants, the Jidle and Madaanle. arriving in the area.


For what it's worth.my mtDna is U5a2a, downstream from Cheddar Man. My Y Dna is E1b1b1c1a.

 

[Apollo]

I don’t know it doesn’t seem to me, at least not yet, that he is arguing in bad faith.

He is arguing in bad faith. He keeps lying. I showed him evidence that the Boni are +40% Bantu paternally (E-M2), yet he keeps claiming they are native. Their ''oh so special'' B2b is less than 4.8%. Moreover, that last lineage could have been introduced by recent maroon Bantu slaves from Malawi/Tanzania where it exists in Bantu populations.

He denies the nativity of ethnic Cushitic Somalis over Bantu mutts. His agenda is obvious to all, beware of this dishonest man.

 

[MI]

It's Apollo who says they are mixed.

Pottery and other typically Elay cultural materials were found well into the middle Holocene layer, indicating a continuous sequence, going back 20K. A separate study found that the teeth on the burials were too large to have been Samaale. And besides, they date to about 12 K. I believe the Eyle can claim to be the most native to the Buur Hakaba/Heybe area, especially as they have traditions of defeating the earliest Cushitic immigrants, the Jidle and Madaanle. arriving in the area.

This is the first I’ve heard of a material culture in Somalia being tracked back 20kya... Can you shoot me some links? Also smaller teeth is a known phenotypic change over time switching from hunter-gatherer lifestyles to a more secure food source in all populations, an adaption that happens relatively quick for some reason. We don’t know yet for sure selective pressure that causes this. That alone does not necessarily prove that the specimens in question were not Cushitic or perhaps Nilotic but you believe that makes the natives Khoi? I’d like to read that study as well maybe that had something else to go on, like the skull or skeleton.
“Human teeth have changed in their appearance and function to reach their present form. In the examination of archaeological teeth, distinct changes are evident, which leads to hypotheses about people living long ago.

Tooth fossils tend to remain remarkably preserved, which enables researchers to have an illuminating glimpse into the teeth of bygone eras. Humans today display smaller teeth and smaller jaws when compared to people who lived 25,000 years ago.”
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/30/science/human-teeth-small-already-keep-on-shrinking.html

I admit it’s possible that pocket-populations of minorities in Somalia may indeed be very old, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I don’t believe you’ve given me enough. I am open to the idea, though.

 

[Grant]

This is the first I’ve heard of a material culture in Somalia being tracked back 20kya... Can you shoot me some links? Also smaller teeth is a known phenotypic change over time switching from hunter-gatherer lifestyles to a more secure food source in all populations, an adaption that happens relatively quick for some reason. We don’t know yet for sure selective pressure that causes this. That alone does not necessarily prove that the specimens in question were not Cushitic or perhaps Nilotic but you believe that makes the natives Khoi? I’d like to read that study as well maybe that had something else to go on, like the skull or skeleton.
“Human teeth have changed in their appearance and function to reach their present form. In the examination of archaeological teeth, distinct changes are evident, which leads to hypotheses about people living long ago.

Tooth fossils tend to remain remarkably preserved, which enables researchers to have an illuminating glimpse into the teeth of bygone eras. Humans today display smaller teeth and smaller jaws when compared to people who lived 25,000 years ago.”
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/30/science/human-teeth-small-already-keep-on-shrinking.html

I admit it’s possible that pocket-populations of minorities in Somalia may indeed be very old, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I don’t believe you’ve given me enough. I am open to the idea, though.

Apparently not. Ask me again when your contact is open.

 

[Apollo]

I admit it’s possible that pocket-populations of minorities in Somalia may indeed be very old, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and I don’t believe you’ve given me enough. I am open to the idea, though.

Somalia's palaeolithic hunter-gatherers are extinct and have been fully absorbed by Cushitic ethnic Somalis.

These fake pseudo-hunter-gatherers (they are not even full-time HGs, but part-timers doing it as a hobby) like the Boni and Eyle are nothing more than regular Cushitic ethnic Somalis mixed with Tanzanian Bantus.

Don't let this clown ''Grant'' fool you.

 

[MI]

Apparently not. Ask me again when your contact is open.

What?

Somalia's palaeolithic hunter-gatherers are extinct and have been fully absorbed by Cushitic ethnic Somalis.

These fake pseudo-hunter-gatherers (they are not even full-time HGs, but part-timers doing it as a hobby) like the Boni and Eyle are nothing more than regular Cushitic ethnic Somalis mixed with Tanzanian Bantus.

Don't let this clown ''Grant'' fool you.

“A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence”—David Hume.

There’s nothing to believe or be fooled by here. I believe we shall all have the answers we’re looking for if we hopefully in the future find ancient remains to sequence from Somalia. Do we even have any remains from Paleolithic Somalia? I geniunely don’t know.

 

[Apollo]

There’s nothing to believe or be fooled by here. I believe we shall all have the answers we’re looking for if we hopefully in the future find ancient remains to sequence from Somalia. Do we even have any remains from Paleolithic Somalia? I geniunely don’t know.

Somalia is either savanna or semi-arid land. It does not allow for hunter-gathers to survive as a separate entity over thousands of years. This is simply a ridiculous claim to make. All of them are gone and have been swamped by the Cushites.

 

[MI]

Somalia is either savanna or semi-arid land. It does not allow for hunter-gathers to survive as a separate entity over thousands of years. This is simply a ridiculous claim to make. All of them are gone and have been swamped by the Cushites.

It’s possible that a hunter-gatherer population moved to the area during the African humid period a few thousand years prior to the Holocene though and somehow sustained themselves long enough until whenever it was we migrated to the area. If these people hypothetically also adopted our pastoral ways on our arrival it’s then possible that they survived in some form until present day. Similar to the Ainu and the Yayoi. This is a bunch of speculation though and I am uninformed about the genetics of minority populations in Somalia but from what I understand in this thread they are clearly not from some Paleolithic ghost population in the Horn.

 

[Geedcad]

Check this source out and it says exactly what you're saying. It's very clear @Grant is wrong and it's not a surprise.

Sxb where can i find these proof give the site name

 

[Geedcad]

Senile fool,

Those maternal lineages are found in regular Cushitic Somalis on 23andMe who cluster with regular Somalis and score 100% Somali.

Again, nothing unique about them other than the B2b which is from Tanzania - never found in ethnic Somals. The other lineages are native Northeast/East African lineages, big deal.

The only difference between them and regular Somalis is that they carry heavy Bantu/Swahili admixture (especially obvious when it comes to their E-M2 and other Bantu expansion lineages). Their B2a could also be Bantu. In addition, their B2b could be from hunter-gatherer admixed runaway maroon Bantu slaves from Tanzania.

My final comment for your dumb ass: Bantus are not native to Somalia. No matter what silly tricks you try to pull. Period.



Swahili is Bantu, dummy, and the Bravanese are 10-20% Bantu, the Bajuni much more than that.

We need paternal lineage not maternal maternal is not lineage
Maternal is your mother side so is yiur lineage your mother or father those need paternal dna tht is father to son those white jews always just test mother side which is maternal they always lie and dont want people to know their paternal side they always lie

 

[Grant]

Sxb where can i find these proof give the site name

Dude's favorite sources are the falsified Somali pages on Wiki and he doesn't do links.

Somali Bantu is a new and conflated name, combining the Gosha and Madow Weyn. It was created by humanitarian groups after the civil war and is now being used by some to tar both groups with the same brush..

http://orvillejenkins.com/peoples/somalibantu.html

"The term "Somali Bantu" is a recent term referring to a grouping of small ethnic groups in Central Somalia. The commonality of these small peoples was their origins from diverse Bantu-speaking peoples, though some now speak Somali-related languages.

Some are indigenous to the area, from before the entry centuries ago of the Cushitic peoples now known as the Somali.

Some are descendants of slaves brought from African territories further south. In the last decade or so these small ethnic groups have formed an alliance to represent their common interests. The term Somali Bantu refers to this grouping of peoples speaking several languages and of varying origins from Bantu-speaking peoples."

See Mohammed Eno, beginning at page 89

http://www.stclements.edu/grad/gradeno.pdf

"A panel of expert anthropologists who investigated the subject concluded by saying, “…we may reckon those [Bantu/Madow] tribes in all probability represent remnants of a pre-Somali population…”7

Bulletin of the International Committee of Urgent Anthropological and Ethnical Research; pp.28-29. No.3, 1960; with the help of UNESCO.

Also from the UN:

https://reliefweb.int/report/somalia/study-minorities-somalia

"The Bantu are believed to be descendants of Bantu communities in East and Central Africa from regions like Tanzania and Malawi, brought into Somalia by Arab slave traders. However, there are also other Bantu who are believed to be non-Somali, who lived in Somalia before the arrival of the aforementioned Bantu. Most of the Bantu are small-scale farmers who live in the riverine areas along the Juba and Shabelle rivers, the only permanent rivers that run through southern Somalia."

Also from the UN:

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/un-and-somalias-
invisible-minorities

"A second minority category includes the diverse group of farmers who are not ethnic Somalis, living in much the same areas as the Rahanweyn and Digil. They include remnants of indigenous peoples, some of them originally speakers of the Cushitic languages (such as the Shebelle and Gabaweyn) and some Bantu. These peoples are mostly culturally assimilated to the Rahanweyn. The other groups are descendants of former slaves who established enclaves in the 19th century, chiefly in the Lower Shebelle and Lower Jubba valleys. Originally having retreated to the tsetse-infested woodlands on the riverbanks where no pastoralists ventured, they are often collectively known as WaGosha, "forest people". Many of these communities retain Bantu languages."

The traditional view is that the Bantu expansion never crossed the Tana. Since the "Black" movement south and up the rivers was 15th centry and the Somali slave plantation economy was 19th century, another source needed to be found for those who went up the rivers, becoming the Shabelle, Gabawiin, etc. The Ari are just the most obvious close source.The acceptance of the non-fabricated portions of the Book of the Zenj and the above UN research has caused a re-evaluation of the expansion..

https://www.coursehero.com/file/p5h...and-settlement-of-the-Eastern-Bantu-speaking/

So we have a dilemma. Either the Gabawiin, Shabelle, etc, are groups other than the Bantu, or they preceeded the Cushites in the Lower Jubba and the Shabelli plain. If these groups turn out to be truly Bantu, then the choice is clear and the UN findings and the new evaluation are correct.

@AussieHustler @Apollo @James Dahl @MusIbr @Geedcad

 

[Geedcad]

Dude's favorite sources are the falsified Somali pages on Wiki and he doesn't do links.

Somali Bantu is a new and conflated name, combining the Gosha and Madow Weyn. It was created by humanitarian groups after the civil war and is now being used by some to tar both groups with the same brush..

http://orvillejenkins.com/peoples/somalibantu.html

"The term "Somali Bantu" is a recent term referring to a grouping of small ethnic groups in Central Somalia. The commonality of these small peoples was their origins from diverse Bantu-speaking peoples, though some now speak Somali-related languages.

Some are indigenous to the area, from before the entry centuries ago of the Cushitic peoples now known as the Somali.

Some are descendants of slaves brought from African territories further south. In the last decade or so these small ethnic groups have formed an alliance to represent their common interests. The term Somali Bantu refers to this grouping of peoples speaking several languages and of varying origins from Bantu-speaking peoples."

See Mohammed Eno, beginning at page 89

http://www.stclements.edu/grad/gradeno.pdf

"A panel of expert anthropologists who investigated the subject concluded by saying, “…we may reckon those [Bantu/Madow] tribes in all probability represent remnants of a pre-Somali population…”7

Bulletin of the International Committee of Urgent Anthropological and Ethnical Research; pp.28-29. No.3, 1960; with the help of UNESCO.

Also from the UN:

https://reliefweb.int/report/somalia/study-minorities-somalia

"The Bantu are believed to be descendants of Bantu communities in East and Central Africa from regions like Tanzania and Malawi, brought into Somalia by Arab slave traders. However, there are also other Bantu who are believed to be non-Somali, who lived in Somalia before the arrival of the aforementioned Bantu. Most of the Bantu are small-scale farmers who live in the riverine areas along the Juba and Shabelle rivers, the only permanent rivers that run through southern Somalia."

Also from the UN:

https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/un-and-somalias-
invisible-minorities

"A second minority category includes the diverse group of farmers who are not ethnic Somalis, living in much the same areas as the Rahanweyn and Digil. They include remnants of indigenous peoples, some of them originally speakers of the Cushitic languages (such as the Shebelle and Gabaweyn) and some Bantu. These peoples are mostly culturally assimilated to the Rahanweyn. The other groups are descendants of former slaves who established enclaves in the 19th century, chiefly in the Lower Shebelle and Lower Jubba valleys. Originally having retreated to the tsetse-infested woodlands on the riverbanks where no pastoralists ventured, they are often collectively known as WaGosha, "forest people". Many of these communities retain Bantu languages."

The traditional view is that the Bantu expansion never crossed the Tana. Since the "Black" movement south and up the rivers was 15th centry and the Somali slave plantation economy was 19th century, another source needed to be found for those who went up the rivers, becoming the Shabelle, Gabawiin, etc. The Ari are just the most obvious close source.The acceptance of the non-fabricated portions of the Book of the Zenj and the above UN research has caused a re-evaluation of the expansion..

https://www.coursehero.com/file/p5h...and-settlement-of-the-Eastern-Bantu-speaking/

View attachment 65259
View attachment 65260
So we have a dilemma. Either the Gabawiin, Shabelle, etc, are groups other than the Bantu, or they preceeded the Cushites in the Lower Jubba and the Shabelli plain. If these groups turn out to be truly Bantu, then the choice is clear and the UN findings and the new evaluation are correct.

@AussieHustler @Apollo @James Dahl @MusIbr @Geedcad

They are bantu tht leanr to speak cushites language i think tgey commmit genoiside cuhites people btw banutus are not native to whole east africa or even in south africa native south africans were khoisan people

 

[James Dahl]

Indigenous is a tricky word.

The question of whether Cushitic or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, clearly Cushitic people arrived first.

The question of whether SOMALI or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, that's more difficult but probably Bantu speaking people.

 

[Geedcad]

Indigenous is a tricky word.

The question of whether Cushitic or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, clearly Cushitic people arrived first.

The question of whether SOMALI or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, that's more difficult but probably Bantu speaking people.

It was inhabited somali all over somalia then those bantu taken from ranzania as slave brought by arabs in south somali bantu where not native to whoke east africa until bantu expansion

 

[Grant]

Indigenous is a tricky word.

The question of whether Cushitic or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, clearly Cushitic people arrived first.

The question of whether SOMALI or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, that's more difficult but probably Bantu speaking people.

Do you have anything on the Eyle or the Helledi speakers?

 

[James Dahl]

Do you have anything on the Eyle or the Helledi speakers?

No, I've never come across an Eyle lineage. Eyle are like the Waata and Aweer who are found in Kenya. Waata and Eyle were Waaq worshipping Cushitic people, who also have an Arab fathers foundation myth. Here are some Waata people explaining their origins and their life.


Eyle, Aweer, Dahalo and Waata are all small hunter gatherer tribes. Waata are the best known because they are the largest and they are in Kenya so there is more written about them.

They are distinct most because of their different lifestyle of hunters. They never adopted pastoralism or agriculture but remained hunters and gatherers. They are not a people who predate other Cushitic people but rather a people who went down a different path than everyone else.