Bantu Expansion

[Grant]

No, I've never come across an Eyle lineage. Eyle are like the Waata and Aweer who are found in Kenya. Waata and Eyle were Waaq worshipping Cushitic people, who also have an Arab fathers foundation myth. Here are some Waata people explaining their origins and their life.


Eyle, Aweer, Dahalo and Waata are all small hunter gatherer tribes. Waata are the best known because they are the largest and they are in Kenya so there is more written about them.

They are distinct most because of their different lifestyle of hunters. They never adopted pastoralism or agriculture but remained hunters and gatherers. They are not a people who predate other Cushitic people but rather a people who went down a different path than everyone else.

What makes you think think they are Cushitic and not just language shifters? This study says:

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https://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/11443, page 122.

B2a and b are Khoisan. Did you read the Eyle archaeology?

 

[Apollo]

What makes you think think they are Cushitic and not just language shifters? This study says:

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https://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/11443, page 122.

B2a and b are Khoisan. Did you read the Eyle archaeology?

Again you are misrepresenting the facts:

- The Waata are Kenyan Oromos and have nothing to do with Somalia.

- They are admixed with Bantus: they carry E-M98 (also known as E2b), a secondary Bantu expansion lineage. See: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M98

- The Waata are admixed with Southwest Ethiopian Omotics: they carry E-M329 (also known as E3* formerly). Probably from Borana Oromos. This proves their Oromo Ethiopian roots substantially.

- None of the Waata carried B2b, and only a super-minority 4.8% of the Boni do. Additionally, B2b is found in Tanzanian and Swahili Bantu populations and could have been spread to the Boni via Swahili Bantus.

Lastly, the Waata are not language shifters per se. The majority of their Y (excluding the various admixtures) is Cushitic/Northeast African E-M35 (66.7%). The vocabulary substratum in their language is South Cushitic, also Cushitic.

I respect James Dahl as he is an honest researcher, but you sir are a dirty dishonest man with an agenda.

Eyle, Aweer, Dahalo and Waata

These groups are not the same. Not culturally, linguistically, or ethnically.

The Waata are Kenyan Oromos or heavily Oromized. They descend from Borana Oromos and are a low-caste among Oromos.

The Eyle, Aweer, and Boni are Somalis who are heavily mixed with Maroon Bantus (runaway slaves).

Lastly, none of them are genuine hunter-gatherers (like the San). They are settled modern populations who occasionally hunt on the side.

 

[Apollo]

Somali Bantu is a new and conflated name, combining the Gosha and Madow Weyn. It was created by humanitarian groups after the civil war and is now being used by some to tar both groups with the same brush..

It is not a conflated name. It's only you who wishes it to be to deny the nativity of ethnic Somalis in their own homeland.

The term Somali Bantu precisely narrows down their true origins:

- Bantus living in Somalia.

The Gosha are merely the more recent group. The others are also Bantus.

Arabs and Persians have been trading Bantus all the way sine 800 CE (over one thousand years). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion

The older enslaved groups forgot their original tongues and origins as happens as time passes. How many African-American identify with African tribes? None! That's the only difference. All of them are Bantus originally from Malawi, the Congo, Zambia, Kenya, Mozambique, and Tanzania.

 

[James Dahl]

I suspect there's more to it than that, but all the groups I mentioned are minority tribes with no influence and are very poor, I doubt there has been adequate research.

 

[Apollo]

I suspect there's more to it than that, but all the groups I mentioned are minority tribes with no influence and are very poor, I doubt there has been adequate research.

Based on current data, that is the truth.

They are little more than Cushites (Somali variety shown by their E-M35/E-M78) with Omotic (via expansionist Borana Oromos) in the case of the Waata and/or part Bantu in the case of the Somalia ones (Eyle, Boni, Aweer).

Furthermore, the Madowweyne Bantu are not ancestrally or foundationally related to the aforementioned groups. They are a wholly different population descended from the Indian Ocean Slave trade. The fact that they don't know their roots can be explained by time similar to African-Americans, Afro-Latinos, Indian Siddis, Afro-Iranian or Afro-Arab descendants of slaves who don't know their African tribes or precise origins.

 

[Grant]

I suspect there's more to it than that, but all the groups I mentioned are minority tribes with no influence and are very poor, I doubt there has been adequate research.

Based on current data, that is the truth.

They are little more than Cushites (Somaloid variety shown by their E-M35/E-M78) with Omotic (via expansionist Borana Oromos) in the case of the Waata and/or part Bantu in the case of the Somalia ones (Eyle, Boni, Aweer).

Furthermore, the Madowweyne Bantu are not ancestrally or foundationally related to the aforementioned groups. They are a wholly different population descended from the Indian Ocean Slave trade. The fact that they don't know their roots can be explained by time similar to African-Americans, Afro-Latinos, Indian Siddis, Afro-Iranian or Afro-Arab descendants of slaves who don't know their African tribes or precise origins.

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Aweer_language

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https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Dahalo_language.html

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https://www.somalispot.com/threads/bantu-expansion.56855/page-2#post-1552029

"Indigenous is a tricky word.

The question of whether Cushitic or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, clearly Cushitic people arrived first.

The question of whether SOMALI or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, that's more difficult but probably Bantu speaking people."

Folks who got there on their own did not arrive as slaves. Have either of you read The Book of the Zanj?

https://sites.google.com/site/historyofeastafrica/the-book-of-the-zanj

Cerulli, Enrico: Somalia: scritti vari editi ed inediti (Rome 1957)

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Fig: Sheikh Abu Bakr S. Muhiyiddiin (of the arab clan Al Faqi), Chief Qadi and Ulama in the 1920s. It was he who provided Cerulli with some

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[Geedcad]

@Grant

Cushitic speaking people were first even date back to sarapion is ancient mogdishu greek wrote the ancient sarapuon tht was nhabitited by berber people in ancient time somalis were refer to as berbers

 

[Geedcad]

@Samaalic Era teach @Grant a history

 

[Samaalic Era]

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Aweer_language

"Evidence suggests that the Aweer are remnants of the early hunter-gatherer inhabitants of Eastern Africa. According to linguistic, anthropological and other data, these groups later came under the influence of Eastern and Southern Cushitic peoples and adopted Afro-Asiatic languages.[9]"

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Dahalo_language.html

"The Dahalo, former elephant hunters, are dispersed among Swahili and other Bantu peoples, with no villages of their own, and are bilingual in those languages. It may be that children are no longer learning the language.[1]

Dahalo has a highly diverse sound system using all four airstream mechanismsfound in human language: clicks, ejectives, and implosives, as well as the universal pulmonic sounds.

In addition, Dahalo makes a number of uncommon distinctions. It contrasts laminal and apical stops, as in languages of Australia and California; epiglottal and glottal stops and fricatives, as in the Mideast, the Caucasus, and the American Pacific Northwest; and is perhaps the only language in the world to contrast alveolar lateral and palatal lateral fricatives and affricates.

It is suspected that the Dahalo may have once spoken a Sandawe- or Hadza-like language, and that they retained clicks in some words when they shifted to Cushitic, because many of the words with clicks are basic vocabulary. If so, the clicks represent a substratum.

Dahalo is also called Sanye, a name shared with neighboring Waata, also spoken by former hunter-gatherers.

The classification of Dahalo is obscure. Traditionally included in South Cushitic, Tosco (1991) argues instead that it is East Cushitic,[3] and Kießling (2001) agrees that it has too many Eastern features to be South Cushitic.[4]"

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/bantu-expansion.56855/page-2#post-1552029

"Indigenous is a tricky word.

The question of whether Cushitic or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, clearly Cushitic people arrived first.

The question of whether SOMALI or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, that's more difficult but probably Bantu speaking people."

Folks who got there on their own did not arrive as slaves. Have either of you read The Book of the Zanj?

https://sites.google.com/site/historyofeastafrica/the-book-of-the-zanj

Cerulli, Enrico: Somalia: scritti vari editi ed inediti (Rome 1957)

"Under is given my amateur translation of The Book of the Zanj, a manuscript although 19th century is too important to be unreachable
for all those interested in the history of East Africa.




Fig: Sheikh Abu Bakr S. Muhiyiddiin (of the arab clan Al Faqi), Chief Qadi and Ulama in the 1920s. It was he who provided Cerulli with some

rare and precious documents, helping him to reconstruct the history of the Arabs in Banaadir. He was the owner of the The Book of the Zanjis

published by the famous scholar. The ancient documents, originally came from the archives of his grandfather, Mu’allim Mukarram who died

in 1850, and his father S. Muhiyiddiin, well-known as Mufti of Banaadir."

Places like Tanzania and Kenya are traditional Cushitic lands that had the kingdom of azania. Bantus are new to East Africa, let alone Somalia which they have no claim. bantus invaded Central and Southern africa , displacing Khoisasn and Pygmys.

Bantus in Somalia date back to 1400s when the Ajuuran sultanate engaged in a slave trade in East Africa after the bantu expansion had ended in around 1000AD

 

[Apollo]

https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Aweer_language

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https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/Dahalo_language.html

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https://www.somalispot.com/threads/bantu-expansion.56855/page-2#post-1552029

"Indigenous is a tricky word.

The question of whether Cushitic or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, clearly Cushitic people arrived first.

The question of whether SOMALI or Bantu speaking people inhabited southern Somalia first, that's more difficult but probably Bantu speaking people."

Folks who got there on their own did not arrive as slaves. Have either of you read The Book of the Zanj?

https://sites.google.com/site/historyofeastafrica/the-book-of-the-zanj

Cerulli, Enrico: Somalia: scritti vari editi ed inediti (Rome 1957)

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Fig: Sheikh Abu Bakr S. Muhiyiddiin (of the arab clan Al Faqi), Chief Qadi and Ulama in the 1920s. It was he who provided Cerulli with some

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You are a clown and wrong as always.

Firstly, none of those aforementioned groups are close to the Hadza. They are mostly Cushites as their primary paternal lineage is E-M35, which is the standard Cushitic lineage and not Southeast African hunter-gatherer. Their remaining admixture is either Omotic (E3*/E-M329) or Bantu (E-M2, B2a, E2b/E-M98), not SEA HG. Moreover, no Hadza strain exists in Somalia or in Somalis. In fact, of all the groups in the Horn of Africa, Somalis have the lowest Hadza and/or Omotic genetic affinity.

Moreover, focus on the Boni/Aweer as they are the group spread out into Somalia. Not the Waata Oromos et al. who are Kenya-specific and have nothing to do with Somalia.

Secondly, those groups are not akin to the Madowweyne, stop linking the two. Niger-Congo populations have separate genes and ancestry from them. The Madowweyne Bantu descend from enslaved Bantus brought to Somalia by way of the Arab Indian Ocean slave trade network operating in the Middle Ages.

Lastly, the reason why I am absolutely convinced that the Madowweyne of Somalia are of Niger-Congo Bantu descent is that I have seen unpublished private material from these groups on genome websites. They are Bantus, full stop. Even the ''light-skinned'' Benadiri multiracials of Somalia are +10% Niger-Congo/Bantu. There is not a hope in hell that the Madowweyne of Somalia are not Bantu.

 

[Grant]

You are a clown and wrong as always.

Firstly, none of those aforementioned groups are close to the Hadza. They are mostly Cushites as their primary paternal lineage is E-M35, which is the standard Cushitic lineage and not Southeast African hunter-gatherer. Their remaining admixture is either Omotic (E3*/E-M329) or Bantu (E-M2, B2a, E2b/E-M98), not SEA HG. Moreover, no Hadza strain exists in Somalia or in Somalis. In fact, of all the groups in the Horn of Africa, Somalis have the lowest Hadza and/or Omotic genetic affinity.

Moreover, focus on the Boni/Aweer as they are the group spread out into Somalia. Not the Waata Oromos et al. who are Kenya-specific and have nothing to do with Somalia.

Secondly, those groups are not akin to the Madowweyne, stop linking the two. Niger-Congo populations have separate genes and ancestry from them. The Madowweyne Bantu descend from enslaved Bantus brought to Somalia by way of the Arab Indian Ocean slave trade network operating in the Middle Ages.

Lastly, the reason why I am absolutely convinced that the Madowweyne of Somalia are of Niger-Congo Bantu descent is that I have seen unpublished private material from these groups on genome websites. They are Bantus, full stop. Even the ''light-skinned'' Benadiri multiracials of Somalia are +10% Niger-Congo/Bantu. There is not a hope in hell that the Madowweyne of Somalia are not Bantu.

Here is the re-evaluation of Shungwaya, including much Somali history. It's not a big deal to get through the Pay-wall. You just sign up.

http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitstream/2307/2886/1/05_VERE ALLEN J._Shungwaya, the Segeju and Somali History.pdf

This postdates the papers that argued Shungwaya was fiction. He agrees with you about the Bantus but dates them in southern Somalia to the 9th through the 12th or 13th centuries, preceeding the Ajuraan. He also gets into the Aweer/Boni, Hamar Jajab, and other juicy items.. It looks like where the UN and the Kenyan scholars are getting their info.

If you previously had the information on the Gabawiin, Shidle, etc, it would have been nice to have shared it.

If you are trying to use politics to change history, it's going to be difficult. There's way too much of it that goes against you.

 

[James Dahl]

Do they really not know their roots or has no-one investigated? The sources Grant is quoting are very thin and they don't cite any evidence, just vague allusions to some language substrate, which is hardly a reliable way to determine someone's historical origins.

I'm willing to bet no one has ever bothered to ask the Eyle where they came from and who their ancestors are, I'm sure they have lots of things to say.

 

[Grant]

Do they really not know their roots or has no-one investigated? The sources Grant is quoting are very thin and they don't cite any evidence, just vague allusions to some language substrate, which is hardly a reliable way to determine someone's historical origins.

I'm willing to bet no one has ever bothered to ask the Eyle where they came from and who their ancestors are, I'm sure they have lots of things to say.

This oral tradition on Wiki obviously involved some interviews:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buur_Heybe

"Buur Heybe historically served as a key religious and political hub.[2] According to oral tradition in the Doi ("red soil") belt, several dynasties were based in the town.[2][5] The Eyle aver that the area was at various times invaded and occupied by a succession of early Cushitic settlers, the Jidle, Maadanle and Ajuran, whom they each managed to defeat. A number of ancient burial sites dated from this pre-Islamic period sit atop the mountain's peak, and are a center of annual pilgrimage (siyaro). A trench near the holy places is said to serve as a passage toward heaven (siraad), and as such is off-limits to individuals possessing a nefarious past. These burial sites on the mountain's summit were later made into Muslim holy sites in the ensuing Islamic period, including the Owol Qaasing (derived from the Arabic "Abdul Qaasim", one of the names of Prophet Muhammad) and Sheikh Abdulqadir al-Jilaani (named for the founder of the Qadiriyya order).[2]

Additionally, the area is a center of pottery production. The Bur Ecological and Archaeological Project, established in 1983, uncovered hundreds of sherds from the site and other rock shelters. Oral tradition suggests that the Eyle were the first people to make pottery in Buur Heybe.[2]

Demographics[edit]
Buur Heybe is today primarily inhabited by the Eyle, an ethnic minority community of agropastoralists, potters and part-time hunters. Their ethnonym translates as the "hunters with dogs".[2] The Eyle are believed to be remnants of the aboriginal San hunter-gatherers who inhabited southern Somalia prior to the arrival from the north of Afro-Asiatic populations of the Cushitic branch.[6] Buur Heybe is consequently also known as Buur Eyle ("Eyle mountain"), in recognition of the first inhabitants in the surrounding villages of Howaal Dheri, Berdaale and Muuney.[2]"

The reference for #2 is Mukhtar, Mohamed Haji (2003). Historical Dictionary of Somalia. Scarecrow Press. p. 60. ISBN 0810866048. Retrieved 23 August 2014.

The reference for #5 is Jama, Ahmed Dualeh (1996). The Origins and Development of Mogadishu AD 1000 to 1850: A Study of the Urban Growth Along the Benadir Coast of Southern Somalia. Department of Archaeology, Uppsala University. p. 29. ISBN 9150611232.

The Rifle Range site link I gave above has the site usage and dating, going back 20K. Pottery in the mid-Holocene layers links the Eyle to the site. If you read the archaeology of Gogoshiis Qabe in either the Buur Heybe or the Rifle Range articles you will understand why the Elay believe they are from right there.

 

[Geedcad]

Again we talking about bantu jarers

 

[Grant]

It is not a conflated name. It's only you who wishes it to be to deny the nativity of ethnic Somalis in their own homeland.

The term Somali Bantu precisely narrows down their true origins:

- Bantus living in Somalia.

The Gosha are merely the more recent group. The others are also Bantus.

Arabs and Persians have been trading Bantus all the way sine 800 CE (over one thousand years). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion

The older enslaved groups forgot their original tongues and origins as happens as time passes. How many African-American identify with African tribes? None! That's the only difference. All of them are Bantus originally from Malawi, the Congo, Zambia, Kenya, Mozambique, and Tanzania.

There is no historical support for an East African slave trade during that period.

Your source:

"Ghada Hashem Talhami, a scholar of the Zanj rebellion, argues that modern views of the revolt are distorted by mistakenly equating the Zanj with East Africans. The assumption that ‘Abbasid writers exclusively used the term "Zanj" to mean specifically the East African coast, and that therefore the people they called Zanj originated from a specific part of that region, is unsupported by contemporary sources due to their silence on the existence of an East African slave trade in this period, as well as by their occasional use of the term to mean "blacks" or "Africa" in general.

Talhami cites from various historians and works to make her point that the rebellion was more of a religious/social uprising made by the lowly classed and suppressed citizens of the Basra area, which included a wide variety of people, including slaves of indeterminate origin. She points out that the sources specifically state that the people referred to as "Zanj" were not the only participants of the revolt, but were joined by Bahranis, Bedouins and others from the Basra region; moreover, they give no explicit indication that the Zanj even constituted a majority of the rebels.[35]

Historian M. A. Shaban has argued that rebellion was not a slave revolt, but a revolt of blacks (zanj). In his opinion, although a few runaway slaves did join the revolt, the majority of the participants were Arabs and free East Africans, and if the revolt had been led by slaves, they would have lacked the necessary resources to combat the Abbasid government for as long as they did.[36]"

The Omani slave trade began in 1825 and the Somali plantation economy was mid to late 19th century. According to Virginia Luling:

https://sites.tufts.edu/reinventingpeace/2013/10/31/conflict-over-resources-and-the-victimization-of-the-minorities-in-the-south-of-somalia/

"Jubba (and Shabelle) River Valley settlements were created and populated by sedentary farmers of various and diverse ancestries, including populations who predated Somali arrivals, people who call themselves Reer Shabelle who moved into the valleys from Somalia-Ethiopia border region and are affiliated with the Ajuraan sub-clan, slaves, and Boran/Warday. The label ‘Madow’, which refers to certain racialized physical features, distinguishes those with non-Somali ancestry from those with more Somali ancestry, identified as ‘jileec’.

Prior to the onset of Somalia’s civil war, Madow Jubba and Shabelle valley villagers did not speak a common dialect or share a common kinship system or history. Many villagers in the lower Jubba River Valley continued to identify with their pre-enslavement east African ethnicities such as Yao and Makua. Mushunguli, in the lower Jubba valley, still spoke Zigua over a century after their Zegua ancestors from Tanzania had arrived as slaves into Somalia. Other minorities included Shabelle, Makanne, Eyle in Shabelle and inter-riverine areas and tiny groups of Boni in the Lower Jubba Valley. Other minorities with separate ancestries, languages, and histories lived along the coast, completely separate from the riverine minorities, including Bajuni, Reer Brava, and Reer Xamar (Few scholars include the Rahanweyn clan among minorities since the creation of armed militia in 1996 and the 2000 power-sharing formula where Rahanweyn were counted as equal to the other 3 Somali clans)."

Only the Gosha and Mushunguli have a slave origin.

 

[Apollo]

Only the Gosha and Mushunguli have a slave origin.

Again with your lies, the other Bantus were imported (between 800 CE-1700 CE) before literacy was common and history was well documented.

Arabs have been trading Zanjis (East African Bantus) since the 800s. Importing them as North as Iran:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion

Even in Mecca during the initial stages of Islam, black slaves were present:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_the_Muslim_world#Arab_slave_trade

I'm done with this topic. You are agenda-ridden and not a legitimate debater. I'm not going to waste time on your fantasies.

 

[Grant]

Arabs have been trading Zanjis (East African Bantus) since the 800s. Importing them as North as Iran:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion

I'm done with this topic. You are agenda-written and not a legitimate debater.

That is the exact link I was quoting. My only agenda is exposing falsehoods, of which you have come up with more than a few.

Don't claim I agree with you on the Bantus next time!

 

[Apollo]

That is the exact link I was quoting. My only agenda is exposing falsehoods, of which you have come up with more than a few.

Don't claim I agree with you on the Bantus next time!

Absolutely no serious historian on here agrees with you and everyone can see through your disgusting agenda.

You have lost all respect on Somali forums. Everyone now realizes that you are an anti-Somali.

 

[Factz]

That is the exact link I was quoting. My only agenda is exposing falsehoods, of which you have come up with more than a few.

Don't claim I agree with you on the Bantus next time!

Absolute horseshit. Everyone knows you have an illegitimate distortion of Somali history.

All the Bantus in Southern Somalia have slave origin you buffoon. Slavery in Somalia has been happening way before the Omani slave trade appeared you dunderhead. Go look at this map.

 

[Grant]

Absolutely nobody agrees with you and every serious historian on here can see through your disgusting agenda.

You have lost all respect on Somali forums. Everyone now realizes that you are an anti-Somali.

That is ridiculous. Any serious historian can read the thread Yusuf and Ahmad

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/yusuf-and-ahmad.48176/#post-1320180

and see the difference between actual history and the falsified Somali pages at Wikipedia. Anybody can check my links because I use them.The Anti-Somali slander is false. It is the false history that is offensive and wrong, not the real history. It is you with the political agenda, denying the Minorities their past.