Arab and Somali tribes on T-Y16897

[Griezmann7711]

Isn't the closest relative of the somali subclade of T-l208 found in yemen? Do you have a theory of where it might've come from aside from yemen?

The closest samples to us as of now are Saudis from what I'm aware of, I have some theory but lets wait and see for more results.

 

[Step a side]

The size of beesha T is relatively large for it to be a simple a settlement. Further more there doesn't seem to be any linguistic or cultural leftover from their yemeni heritage aside from the introduction of camel. On the contrary beesha T are one of the custodian of both the somali language and culture. What was it that lead to their complete assimilation into the somali sphere and why didn't they turn into an axum of some sort?

The Sabeans were at their height of civilisation 3000 years ago when they were colonising the Eritrean coast bringing military and huge settlements with them. DM’T is literally a Sabean implant. We see this with the architecture, OSA script, and style of governance. As for the Dir they descend from 1 individual. He might have arrived with few others but their lineage died out. Most definitely they were just traders and not colonisers.

 

[El Nino]

The Sabeans were at their height of civilisation 3000 years ago when they were colonising the Eritrean coast bringing military and huge settlements with them. DM’T is literally a Sabean implant. We see this with the architecture, OSA script, and style of governance. As for the Dir they descend from 1 individual. He might have arrived with few others but their lineage died out. Most definitely they were just traders and not colonisers.

Presence of mtDna Tia in somali samples suggest otherwise, beesha T likely were south arabian population that assimilated into somalis.

I could be wrong, Im going off memory @Shimbiris

 

[Griezmann7711]

Presence of mtDna Tia in somali samples suggest otherwise, beesha T likely were south arabian population that assimilated into somalis.

I could be wrong, Im going off memory @Shimbiris

Explain more.

 

[El Nino]

Explain more.

Saw a post here of guys showing different Y-dna and mtDna matches they had on 23andme. If I remember correctly, there were matches with Tia mtdna

 

[Griezmann7711]

Saw a post here of guys showing different Y-dna and mtDna matches they had on 23andme.

I think I know the one you're reffering to, the one who showed his relative lists and the frequency of their Y and Mtdna on 23andme? I mean what do you mean "Presence of mtDna Tia in somali samples suggest otherwise,"

Also what do you mean Tia after mtdna, spelling error?

 

[El Nino]

I think I know the one you're reffering to, the one who showed his relative lists and the frequency of their Y and Mtdna on 23andme? I mean what do you mean "Presence of mtDna Tia in somali samples suggest otherwise,"

Also what do you mean Tia after mtdna, spelling error?

Yeah thats the post Im referring to. Mudane @Step a side suggested they were they were traders which is most likely. I interpreted his comment wrong so ignore my earlier post.

Hhh yeah I meant T1a, not Tia.

 

[Griezmann7711]

Yeah thats the post Im referring to. Mudane @Step a side suggested they were they were traders which is most likely. I interpreted his comment wrong so ignore my earlier post.

Hhh yeah I meant T1a, not Tia.

I thought you meant the maternal lineage (mtdna) in all Somalir or T somalis suggest otherwise. I was thinking how does the maternal lineage play a role into this y dna.

 

[Step a side]

@El Nino , mashaAllah.

Female T1a is found among the earliest farmers in the Levantt. It’s found all over the world. It must have come with the Neolithic farmers via Egypt

The only time Arabians colonised the Horn was during the Sabean period ~1000 BC. This somali Y dna T came 1000 years later when the southern Arabians were not that influential in the region. Arabians from Yemen also prefer highlands as most are farmers.

 

[kaahin13]

We meet with them 2200 years ago Islam didn't appear at that time and They have an old history in the area The Arabs in those areas are not easy to integrate with. They were isolated in the mountains , and some of them even still speak Sabaean so I don't think

Your only going by tmrca which can change once more samples come in. I’ll only be satisfied by the south Arabian hypothesis once we actually confirm a whole tribe matches the dir T. Going by individual samples from historically cosmopolitan areas and generalizing their whole tribe doesn’t make sense. Lots of confirmation bias here from very limited data

 

[Somalihero]

We meet with them 2200 years ago Islam didn't appear at that time and They have an old history in the area The Arabs in those areas are not easy to integrate with. They were isolated in the mountains , and some of them even still speak Sabaean so I don't think

Might it be the so called " Sabaean langauge" Af Soomaali ? who knows???

 

[NidarNidar]

I suspect T came to Somalis in the north with things like camel domestication given that our word for camel is seemingly a loan from Old South Arabian (check my recent post history for a thread about Cushites riding oxen for links as I'm on my phone now). Probably came with camel domestication, zebu type admixture in our cattle and general trade contact with OSAs back then. Some dude or, more likely, dudes came, settled among the Somali tribes in the midst of all that in a manner much like the Carab Saalax millennia later and then some founder effects later you have the second most dominant Y-DNA among Somali men.

I've seen art from laas geel estimated to be 4,500 -5,500 years old showing camels, camel domestication seem to have separated early cushites in the area it seems, and further south the Nilotic and Bantu expansion seems to have pushed cushites further into northeast Kenya, we still have a few Cushitic groups surviving in Tanzania called the Iraqw.

 

[Shimbiris]

I've seen art from laas geel estimated to be 4,500 -5,500 years old showing camels, camel domestication seem to have separated early cushites in the area it seems, and further south the Nilotic and Bantu expansion seems to have pushed cushites further into northeast Kenya, we still have a few Cushitic groups surviving in Tanzania called the Iraqw.

Laas Geel is, like other sites, not a static site. There are layers of art over thousands of years. Look up Sada Mire's papers and books. I distinctly recall camel art only being dated to the last 2,000 years. The original livestock package of Cushites was cattle, goats, sheep, donkeys and shepherd dogs. This is inarguable and well-known. They came from the Sudanese Neolithic. Camels are a later addition.

 

[NidarNidar]

Laas Geel is, like other sites, not a static site. There are layers of art over thousands of years. Look up Sada Mire's papers and books. I distinctly recall camel art only being dated to the last 2,000 years. The original livestock package of Cushites was cattle, goats, sheep, donkeys and shepherd dogs. This is inarguable and well-known. They came from the Sudanese Neolithic. Camels are a later addition.

This makes sense, I remember reading a paper about Camel domestication in the levant area, I wonder if they were wild camels in the region before domestication, originally they are from North America, wonder what route did they take across the red sea or down from Egypt, the domestication of camels is vital to see when we broke off from other cushites.

 

[kaahin13]

Laas Geel is, like other sites, not a static site. There are layers of art over thousands of years. Look up Sada Mire's papers and books. I distinctly recall camel art only being dated to the last 2,000 years. The original livestock package of Cushites was cattle, goats, sheep, donkeys and shepherd dogs. This is inarguable and well-known. They came from the Sudanese Neolithic. Camels are a later addition.

You make a major logical leap when you claim T Somalis may have brought camels to somaliweyne. It could have easily been the case that camels were brought in via trade without population movements or J1 somalis brought it. There are many different possibilities

 

[Shimbiris]

You make a major logical leap when you claim T Somalis may have brought camels to somaliweyne. It could have easily been the case that camels were brought in via trade without population movements or J1 somalis brought it. There are many different possibilities

I started my entire post with I suspect. As in it was just a theory and a suggestion that somewhat fits. It's just a possibility. Calm down, niyahow. You're not debunking some grand hypothesis I very strongly believe in nor in fact adding anything to the discussion.

 

[kaahin13]

I started my entire post with I suspect. As in it was just a theory and a suggestion that somewhat fits. It's just a possibility. Calm down, niyahow. You're not debunking some grand hypothesis I very strongly believe in nor in fact adding anything to the discussion.

why jump to personal attacks thought we were having a decent discussion. All I said was it could be other factors at play. Further, being a contrarian on this issue which seems to have a near unanimous agreement on seems like I’m adding something

 

[mohammdov]

Are there any adnani tribes in there or are they all qahtani?

Most of them are Adnani and they say that their ancestors came from the north

 

[mohammdov]

Might it be the so called " Sabaean langauge" Af Soomaali ? who knows???

No, the Sabaean language is a Semitic language, and Somali is a Cushitic language, so there is no similarity

 

[Step a side]

This makes sense, I remember reading a paper about Camel domestication in the levant area, I wonder if they were wild camels in the region before domestication, originally they are from North America, wonder what route did they take across the red sea or down from Egypt, the domestication of camels is vital to see when we broke off from other cushites.

It seems likely that there were different epicenters for the domestication of the camel. Mesopotamia and the Umm al-Nar culture in SE Arabia. There also evidence of wild dromedaries being hunted in Central Arabia roughly a thousand years before. These areas would not have been Central Semitic-speaking by that time, the Umm al-Nar culture for instance was preceded by the Hafit period, characterised by beehive tombs that are reminiscent of the Nawamis-type cairns in the Levant, which is bound to mark the arrival of the first Semitic-speaking groups in the area, nevertheless one might envisage a scenario where this enhanced contact of some sort. Prophet Hud and the she camel story takes place in Al ahqaf in what’s now Hadhramaut Yemen. Chronologically speaking Hud came right after Nuh who was considered the 2nd Adam. I personally don’t believe in the OOA theory. This map below fits well with the the Ark of Nuh stationed at mount Judi during embarking as stated in the Quran. Judi being at the Syria-Turkey- Iraq border.

The she camel story shows how old the Camel tradition in Arabia actually was. Below is a 9000 year old camel sculpture in Saudi Arabia predating the stone henge. They have been dated to the Neolithic era, the final period of the Stone Age. Saudi Arabia was then inhabited by hunters and herders