Ancient Egypt, Nubia debate

[nine]

Ethnic Egyptians:
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Modern Somalis/Cushites:
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You have nothing to do with Ancient Egyptians & their modern descendants.

Stick to claiming SSA civilisations.

 

[Cauli]

Somalis probably selected for pseudo-Caucasoid features in the past 4,000 years. Perhaps helping them survive better in the arid climate of the Horn. Who knows.. but ancestry-wise, Somalis don't cluster near the sampled Ancient Egyptians. Also, AEs maternal results are very different from Somalis. They have super low levels of maternal lineages L (African), while for Somalis it is 40-60%.

The sampled Ancient Egyptians are from Lower to Middle Egypt... That's the first thing.

Secondly, the dynasties that were sampled (New Kingdom to Ptolemaic) makes a big difference. Even those who carried out the results clearly mentioned that it wasn't representative so I don't see why you're trying so hard to convince us otherwise.

This is the sample you guys keep quoting as evidence:

Khairat R, Ball M, Chang CC, Bianucci R, Nerlich AG, Trautmann M, Ismail S, Shanab GM, Karim AM, Gad YZ, Pusch CM (August 2013). "First insights into the metagenome of Egyptian mummies using next-generation sequencing". Journal of Applied Genetics. 54(3): 309–25.


They mention themselves that it is NOT a representative sample and should not be seen as that. Interesting most people who quote this study are white supremacists and you guys on Somalispot.

 

[Apollo]

The sampled Ancient Egyptians are from Lower to Middle Egypt... That's the first thing.

Secondly, the dynasties that were sampled (New Kingdom to Ptolemaic) makes a big difference. Even those who carried out the results clearly mentioned that it wasn't representative so I don't see why you're trying so hard to convince us otherwise.

This is the sample you guys keep quoting as evidence:

Khairat R, Ball M, Chang CC, Bianucci R, Nerlich AG, Trautmann M, Ismail S, Shanab GM, Karim AM, Gad YZ, Pusch CM (August 2013). "First insights into the metagenome of Egyptian mummies using next-generation sequencing". Journal of Applied Genetics. 54(3): 309–25.

They mention themselves that it is NOT a representative sample and should not be seen as that. Interesting most people who quote this study are white supremacists and you guys on Somalispot.

I am neutral on the 'Ancient Egypt race question' and simply go by the data. If they find HOA-like Ancient Egyptian genomes I will change my opinion, but for now all we got is Copt-like ones who cluster near Negev Bedouins, Israeli Samaritans etc..

 

[Cauli]

Why are you posting studies on skull shapes/phenotype? We're strictly discussing Genetics.

Those Ancient Egyptians samples are reliable because there was no population replacement or mass mixing going on in Ptolemaic or Roman Egypt, since those samples have no Roman, Greek or any other foreign admixture. Native Egyptians have always remained the super majority (90%+) in their ethnic homeland.

The Ptolemaic dynasty is Greek, not Egyptian and they came after the Hyksos. There was significant mixing in Lower Egypt but it doesn't matter.
When we discuss Ancient Egypt we are essentially dealing with a culture that originated in the South of the country i.e Upper Egypt.
Unless we have a representative sample from Old dynasty Egypt, your selective DNA quoting is nothing but fraudulent at best.

 

[Apollo]

The Ptolemaic dynasty is Greek, not Egyptian and they came after the Hyksos. There was significant mixing in Lower Egypt but it doesn't matter.
When we discuss Ancient Egypt we are essentially dealing with a culture that originated in the South of the country i.e Upper Egypt.
Unless we have a representative sample from Old dynasty Egypt, your selective DNA quoting is nothing but fraudulent at best.

What if earlier samples only have different Eurasian-like component (perhaps more strongly Ancestral North African) but still the same low levels of SSA and don't cluster with HOAs?

That is your next best scenario.

 

[Cauli]

I am neutral on the 'Ancient Egypt race question' and simply go by the data. If they find HOA-like Ancient Egyptian genomes I will change my opinion, but for now all we got is Copt-like ones who cluster near Samaritans.

I'm not an Afrocentrist at all. But I like to call out bullshit when I see it. Those tests are not representative is all I'm saying.

If there is DNA testing done on Old Kingdom dynasties and pre-dynastic upper Egyptians that show them to be same as the Copts, Ill accept it. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

The Ptolemaic dynasty is Greek, not Egyptian and they came after the Hyksos. There was significant mixing in Lower Egypt but it doesn't matter.
When we discuss Ancient Egypt we are essentially dealing with a culture that originated in the South of the country i.e Upper Egypt.
Unless we have a representative sample from Old dynasty Egypt, your selective DNA quoting is nothing but fraudulent at best.

Nobody here claimed the Ptolemaic dynasty was Egyptian. They were part of a series of foreign rulers that ruled over the Native Egyptians & there wasn't mass mixing in Lower Egypt you liar.

Furthermore, Upper Egyptians & Lower Egyptians are racially & ethnically the same you fool. Upper Egyptians(both modern & Ancient) never look like Mix-race Nubians or any other Sub-Saharan Africans & Lower Egyptians are predominantly Egyptian genetically as well(70% & upwards). The purest Egyptians are the Copts in Upper Egypt.

You've been disproven countless times by @Apollo & myself. Go claim a civilisation that actually looked like you.

 

[Cauli]

What if earlier samples only have different Eurasian-like component (perhaps more strongly Ancestral North African) but still the same low levels of SSA and don't cluster with HOAs?

That is your next best scenario.

If it does happen, I will accept it.

@Apollo
You wouldn't accept DNA samplings of North Americans today to be representative of what Americans were a thousands years ago.

You yourself called this out and didn't accept it with Cheddar Man. So why be any different with Egypt.

I know you dislike Afrocentrists, I do too. But that doesn't mean we have to white wash everything either.

 

[Apollo]

@SOMALI GENERAL @Cauli

I think there may have been an ethnic change in prehistoric Egypt. Mainly from a population high in mtDNA M1, U6, N1, J, R0a, I (basically the non-Ls Horners have) towards one with more Iranian/Anatoalian-associated H, V, X (which are more rare in Horners)

This is the most probable scenario I can foresee happening in pre-civilizational or early-civilizational Egypt.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

@SOMALI GENERAL @Cauli

I think there may have been an ethnic change in prehistoric Egypt. Mainly from a population high in mtDNA M1, U6, N1, J, R0a, I (basically the non-Ls Horners have) towards one with more Iranian/Anatoalian-associated H, V, X (which are more rare in Horners)

This is the only probable scenario I can foresee happening in pre-civilizational or early-civilizational Egypt.

Yeah the Ancient Egyptians may have had some Anatolian admixture, but overall the vast majority of their ancestry is derived from Hamites/Afro-asiatic peoples.

It's hilarious to think that delusional Somalis can even think the Ancient Egyptians looked like them. Pathetic.

 

[Apollo]

Yeah the Ancient Egyptians may have had some Anatolian admixture, but overall the vast majority of their ancestry is derived from Hamites/Afro-asiatic peoples.

Recently a study found extinct N lineages in Libya not present in modern-day Libyans:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-39802-1

I think that the North Africans of 20,000 to 5,000 years ago probably had less Anatolian/Iranian-influx ancestry than what is currently present in those sampled AEs and Copts.

 

[Cauli]

Nobody here claimed the Ptolemaic dynasty was Egyptian. They were part of a series of foreign rulers that ruled over the Native Egyptians.

Furthermore, Upper Egyptians & Lower Egyptians are racially & ethnically the same you fool. Upper Egyptians(both modern & Ancient) never look like Mix-race Nubians or any other Sub-Saharan Africans & Lower Egyptians are predominantly Egyptian genetically as well(70% & upwards). The purest Egyptians are the Copts in Upper Egypt.

You've been disproven countless times by @Apollo & myself. Go claim a civilisation that actually looked like you. Typical insecure fool.

Do you have any DNA evidence that the two populations (Upper and Lower) were exactly the same? Don't bother, you don't. How can they be the same when modern Egyptians have a north-south divide that is clear to see even today?
You've clearly never been to Egypt before and are only relying on Anthromadness and Matilda for your DNA indoctrination. I have more than once traveled to Egypt, been from Alexandria in the North all the way to Aswan in the South.
A native Egyptian from the Nile Delta and a native Egyptian from Luxor look completely different and have completely different cultures.
You're a hypocrite, you call dark skinned native Egyptians 'mixed Nubians' and the white skinned Copts as pure Egyptians. Delusional at best.

Besides Copts are an ethno religious identity like'Latinos'. You can find white, brown and even black Copts. If I were to show you a picture of a dark skinned Copt would you accept him as a native?

You have some serious issues. Internalised racism. Sxb, Ancient Egypt belongs to the people in the South. There is a reason why all the temples and most of the civilisation's treasures are in the South. That's where it belongs. Take your white supremacist shit elsewhere.

 

[Cauli]

@SOMALI GENERAL @Cauli

I think there may have been an ethnic change in prehistoric Egypt. Mainly from a population high in mtDNA M1, U6, N1, J, R0a, I (basically the non-Ls Horners have) towards one with more Iranian/Anatoalian-associated H, V, X (which are more rare in Horners)

This is the most probable scenario I can foresee happening in pre-civilizational or early-civilizational Egypt.

How would we know when there wasn't any DNA testing on ancient populations in Egypt pre-Middle dynasty?

Unless there is a huge amount of time invested in testing Old dynasty/pre dynasty DNA. There is no way to be certain.

 

[Apollo]

How would we know when there wasn't any DNA testing on ancient populations in Egypt pre-Middle dynasty?

Unless there is a huge amount of time invested in testing Old dynasty/pre dynasty DNA. There is no way to be certain.

The shift I hypothesize most likely happened between ~7,000 years ago and 5,000 years ago.. before the civilization.

Also, we have to keep in mind that Egypt (the civilization) copied a lot from Mesopotamia.. so gene-flow between them and Ancient Egypt (even the early period) is to be expected.

Best case scenario you will be looking at Iberomaursian-like people in the earliest period.

 

[EDsomali]

Cushites did not build or have any ties to ancient Egypt.

They simply do not have the IQ do achieve what the ancient Egyptians did.

The ancient Egyptians made a written script 4500 years ago while the first Cushitic one emerged early 19th century.

The AE built the pyramids which were the tallest man-made structure for 3000 years while Cushities have barely built anything in the countries they inhabit.

I can go on and on, Cushities were not AE.

 

[Apollo]

They simply do not have the IQ do achieve what the ancient Egyptians did.

Guns, Germs, and Steel bro, they got lucky by being next to Mesopotamia and having a similar latitude/climate.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

Do you have any DNA evidence that the two populations (Upper and Lower) were exactly the same? Don't bother, you don't. How can they be the same when modern Egyptians have a north-south divide that is clear to see even today?
You've clearly never been to Egypt before and are only relying on Anthromadness and Matilda for your DNA indoctrination. I have more than once traveled to Egypt, been from Alexandria in the North all the way to Aswan in the South.
A native Egyptian from the Nile Delta and a native Egyptian from Luxor look completely different and have completely different cultures.
You're a hypocrite, you call dark skinned native Egyptians 'mixed Nubians' and the white skinned Copts as pure Egyptians. Delusional at best.

Besides Copts are an ethno religious identity like'Latinos'. You can find white, brown and even black Copts. If I were to show you a picture of a dark skinned Copt would you accept him as a native?

You have some serious issues. Internalised racism. Sxb, Ancient Egypt belongs to the people in the South. There is a reason why all the temples and most of the civilisation's treasures are in the South. That's where it belongs. Take your white supremacist shit elsewhere.

Upper Egyptians/Copts:

Foreign Mix-race Nubians:

You're a delusional retard for thinking foreign blacks in Egypt are native. Take your Afrocentrism bullshit somewhere else.

 

[Apollo]

@SOMALI GENERAL


These guys are Upper Egyptian Copts living in Sudan, a community that has been tested.

They don't look like the guys you posted.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

Cushites did not build or have any ties to ancient Egypt.

They simply do not have the IQ do achieve what the ancient Egyptians did.

The ancient Egyptians made a written script 4500 years ago while the first Cushitic one emerged early 19th century.

The AE built the pyramids which were the tallest man-made structure for 3000 years while Cushities have barely built anything in the countries they inhabit.

I can go on and on, Cushities were not AE.

Notice that it's only the Sub-Saharan groups, especially with AAs & Somalis that vehemently lie to themselves to claim a North African people that would've enslaved them.

So pathetic.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

@SOMALI GENERAL


These guys are Upper Egyptian Copts living in Sudan, a community that has been tested.

They don't look like the guys you posted.

Egyptians can be both tanned & light-skinned/fair skinned.

The Ancient Egyptians themselves depicted both tanned & lighter Egyptians, but overall they're the same ethnically.