After much prayer

[.279]

I don’t know why but I felt like sharing this with you

Beautiful

 

[xisaabiye]

I agree that you have to expend a certain amount of will power to believe. Its like a spectrum, its why even muslims have certain levels of iman, their belief is never static.

When they say Iman fluctuates iman here is being used as a synonym for taqwa. Imam Abu Hanif(rh) made this distinction clear. Your iman is the same in terms of belief in Allah, but your taqwa(God consciousness) fluctuates & that's part of human nature as mentioned in the ahadith & quran.

 

[xisaabiye]

They are interconnected for sure. You reach disbelief through the philosophy of thought. Morals and ethics seem to dominate the philosophy of thought but as you said previously, science falls under the dogma aswell.

Interesting you made that point. Imam Ghazali, arguably the greatest scholar to have ever lived as well as a polymath of his time reached yaqeen(complete certainty), the highest level of belief through philosophy. The salafi/wahabi scholars childishly release fataawa against ilm ulkalaam(philosophy) because they believe conjecture leads to disbelief, when in reality they don't want people to question their kingdom. This is why the salafi/wahabi school is corrupt in it's essence. Naturally Human beings will question things using their logic. The Ulama of the past were all some of the greatest philosophers & it was a prerequesite to study mantiq(logic) before undertaking islamic studies. Imam ghazali literally went through of the leaders of ancient philosophy in the past, Aristotle & Plotinus books, corrected where they erred in their own methodology of "belief" & then debunked their whole theory including his corrections in Tahafut Al filaasafa(The incoherence of philosphers).

 

[supz]

Interesting you made that point. Imam Ghazali, arguably the greatest scholar to have ever lived as well as a polymath of his time reached yaqeen(complete certainty), the highest level of belief through philosophy. The salafi/wahabi scholars childishly release fataawa against ilm ulkalaam(philosophy) because they believe conjecture leads to disbelief, when in reality they don't want people to question their kingdom. This is why the salafi/wahabi school is corrupt in it's essence. Naturally Human beings will question things using their logic. The Ulama of the past were all some of the greatest philosophers & it was a prerequesite to study mantiq(logic) before undertaking islamic studies. Imam ghazali literally went through of the leaders of ancient philosophy in the past, Aristotle & Plotinus books, corrected where they erred in their own methodology of "belief" & then debunked their whole theory including his corrections in Tahafut Al filaasafa(The incoherence of philosphers).

Yeah I've read about him. He was the one that brought orthodox islam and sufism a little closer. Funny that the wahhabis are now perpetuating the clashes between the sufis and other sunni adherents.

 

[anonimo]

The world has always been scary, I never did notice how much before.

Islam, like most religions, provides you with a meaning to your life. It even calls itself a way of life.

When you find it to be false, you're left standing with what was once of meaning to you stripped away from you.

Now you have no meaning.

This is the reason certain people find themselves depressed or empty or whatnot when they disbelieve.

What to do?

You either give your life new meaning through creating or inventing new meaning, afterall the meaning I had before was just as made up, only now this is customized. or you the drop the importance/utility of meaning altogether.

I gathered that much already.

That is probably a reason why a lot of Muslims, myself included, do not dare entertain the idea of abandoning Islam. Nonetheless, it is not only about meaning. In my case, it would disorientate my moral compass. I harbour some secular socialist moral values, but my main source is Islam. How can one also forget the fact that it is probably harder for someone from a conservative ethnic background to apostasise than it is for a Euro-American etc. as they are more likely to become disowned and ostracised, particularly if they come from a religious family. Living a double life can take a psychological toll. One can also argue that leaving Islam requires the development of new identity. You literally have to find yourself.

You were mistaken when you previously stated that my moral intuition was less than the deniers. You see if an Islamic truth contradicts a secular moral value that I subsribe to, I do not make excuses for it. My brain does not allow me to deceive myself when the evidence is Black and White. For example, in the case of Islamic concepts that have a basis in the Quran or Mutawattir Hadiths, I might sin by not adhering to an Islamic truth. However, the moment I reject it completely, I can see myself apostasising. Logic dictates that there is only belief and disbelief when it comes to some Islamic truths. The disbelief option is out of the equation, hence I choose to believe without question. It is a conscious decision, but many of the deniers do not know that they are practically committing disbelief by rejecting an Islamic truth. I sensed that you were not a 'denier' as you are not wired that way. When certain Islamic truths contradicted your personal moral compass, you made the difficult decision to leave Islam.

 

[yibir]

Islam is a great religion if you are a man! We can have 4 wives, we can be rulers, we can get divorced with the flick of the wrist and we get the majority of the money when the family has to split the wealth of the dead.

And we have to be the leaders since its basically prohibited in Islam to have female leaders. To the women, is this a fair shake? If I was your business partner and came with this contract, you would laugh at my face and ball that paper up. Non of you with a right mind would accept that.

May arab, oh I ment allah bless you with your choice.

 

[supz]

Islam is a great religion if you are a man! We can have 4 wives, we can be rulers, we can get divorced with the flick of the wrist and we get the majority of the money when the family has to split the wealth of the dead.

And we have to be the leaders since its basically prohibited in Islam to have female leaders. To the women, is this a fair shake? If I was your business partner and came with this contract, you would laugh at my face and ball that paper up. Non of you with a right mind would accept that.

May arab, oh I ment allah bless you with your choice.

shamis is a woman sxb

 

[yibir]

shamis is a woman sxb

I know sxb, that's why I highlighted how men are the benefitor of islam

 

[xisaabiye]

Islam is a great religion if you are a man! We can have 4 wives, we can be rulers, we can get divorced with the flick of the wrist and we get the majority of the money when the family has to split the wealth of the dead.

And we have to be the leaders since its basically prohibited in Islam to have female leaders. To the women, is this a fair shake? If I was your business partner and came with this contract, you would laugh at my face and ball that paper up. Non of you with a right mind would accept that.

May arab, oh I ment allah bless you with your choice.

Another sjw wannabe gaal you should fight for something more tangible like yibir rights who are seen as half human in the Somalia constitution

 

[Hybrid]

Islam is a great religion if you are a man! We can have 4 wives, we can be rulers, we can get divorced with the flick of the wrist and we get the majority of the money when the family has to split the wealth of the dead.

And we have to be the leaders since its basically prohibited in Islam to have female leaders. To the women, is this a fair shake? If I was your business partner and came with this contract, you would laugh at my face and ball that paper up. Non of you with a right mind would accept that.

May arab, oh I ment allah bless you with your choice.

is your PAHG a muslim or christian ?

 

[yibir]

Another sjw wannabe gaal you should fight for something more tangible like yibir rights who are seen as half human in the Somalia constitution

Half human and a sjw wannabe gaal? Because i don´t lube up for abu jihad you are triggered? what did i say thats factual incorrect? Only one thats got the SJW traits in here is you acting like non of what i said is valid, just like all of the mainstream muslims say when someone critics you.

 

[yibir]

is your PAHG a muslim or christian ?

She is not really religious at all, but i think her parents are christian but we never discuss fairy tails when we meet.

 

[VixR]

I gathered that much already.

That is probably a reason why a lot of Muslims, myself included, do not dare entertain the idea of abandoning Islam. Nonetheless, it is not only about meaning. In my case, it would disorientate my moral compass. I harbour some secular socialist moral values, but my main source is Islam. How can one also forget the fact that it is probably harder for someone from a conservative ethnic background to apostasise than it is for a Euro-American etc. as they are more likely to become disowned and ostracised, particularly if they come from a religious family. Living a double life can take a psychological toll. One can also argue that leaving Islam requires the development of new identity. You literally have to find yourself.

You were mistaken when you previously stated that my moral intuition was less than the deniers. You see if an Islamic truth contradicts a secular moral value that I subsribe to, I do not make excuses for it. My brain does not allow me to deceive myself when the evidence is Black and White. For example, in the case of Islamic concepts that have a basis in the Quran or Mutawattir Hadiths, I might sin by not adhering to an Islamic truth. However, the moment I reject it completely, I can see myself apostasising. Logic dictates that there is only belief and disbelief when it comes to some Islamic truths. The disbelief option is out of the equation, hence I choose to believe without question. It is a conscious decision, but many of the deniers do not know that they are practically committing disbelief by rejecting an Islamic truth. I sensed that you were not a 'denier' as you are not wired that way. When certain Islamic truths contradicted your personal moral compass, you made the difficult decision to leave Islam.

You're essentially undertaking a balancing act so your belief isn't compromised.

That is what I couldn't do.

I took a different approach to you. The question of 'why' and truth of the system itself made it all come tumbling down.

I can see one constantly adjusting the settings of their moral intuition to mold to something higher if they truly believe that it's the ultimate truth, but if I also must make a continued effort to believe it in the first place without a certain level of assurance, it just doesn't work. What happens when you start to question it, the entire thing? I did. I didn't leave Islam based on moral grounds myself. At first, I questioned the truth of the message, and when I couldn't find resonance or truth, and in fact found errors in objective truths, all the moldings came undone. It's interesting how you can finally admit something is off once it loses the divinity you've been told it had all your life.

All those barriers and obstacles to disbelief that you mentioned are real. It took me a while to go through the process, and I actually became hyper-religious somewhere along the way before I could shed it successfully. I disagree that it involves a completely new identity though. I would say I'm still pretty much the same person, but how much religion can be a significant part of your identity would differ from person to person, so that may vary to some extent, though not by much (I don't think).

 

[xisaabiye]

Half human and a sjw wannabe gaal? Because i don´t lube up for abu jihad you are triggered? what did i say thats factual incorrect? Only one thats got the SJW traits in here is you acting like non of what i said is valid, just like all of the mainstream muslims say when someone critics you.

Why would I care what you see as morally valid? I have no contentions with inheritance laws just like I have no contention to women not having to work & if she does, her money is hers and mine is ours collectively.

You lubed up for whoever took your family as migrants. Had it been abu falafal you'd be eating a basal as you type, but its Bob who was your recipient thus you equate his morals as the standards which you should base your belief on. You've already been lubed and deeply penetrated sad thing is your numb to it

 

[yibir]

Why would I care what you see as morally valid? I have no contentions with inheritance laws just like I have no contention to women not having to work & if she does, her money is hers and mine is ours collectively.

You lubed up for whoever took your family as migrants. Had it been abu falafal you'd be eating a basal as you type, but its Bob who was your recipient thus you equate his morals as the standards which you should base your belief on. You've already been lubed and deeply penetrated sad thing is your numb to it & it's why you don't know

The truth made you angry but yet you belive it you sheep. but yet you are still cherry picking about the deen.
You willingly use saliid for the arab, but we did not have a say in coming to the west you moron.
Oh, so you are saying that people can´t decide for themselves, but follow whoever that took them in?
This just validates my point of you acting like a sheep. You just admitted that you just inherited the moral compass of the people that took in you sheep.

I must say you are a weak link as a human, not a able to decide for yourself based on what you know and belive.
You just follow what everyone else does and think everyone else is a moron.
Keep biting the carpet you dusty abeed.

 

[xisaabiye]

The truth made you angry but yet you belive it you sheep. but yet you are still cherry picking about the deen.
You willingly use saliid for the arab, but we did not have a say in coming to the west you moron.
Oh, so you are saying that people can´t decide for themselves, but follow whoever that took them in?
This just validates my point of you acting like a sheep. You just admitted that you just inherited the moral compass of the people that took in you sheep.

I must say you are a weak link as a human, not a able to decide for yourself based on what you know and belive.
You just follow what everyone else does and think everyone else is a moron.
Keep biting the carpet you dusty abeed.

Seems like I struck a nerve Dead fish in the sea become a product of their environment, you grew up in a gaal majority environment & bac la'aan continued to assume the position

 

[yibir]

Seems like I struck a nerve Dead fish in the sea become a product of their environment, you grew up in a gaal majority environment & bac la'aan continued to assume the position

It´s sad that you have to create a narrative that fits your statement, sadly you have struck air again.
If you base my upbringing on your theory, i would be a sheep like you

 

[anonimo]

You're essentially undertaking a balancing act so your belief isn't compromised.

That is what I couldn't do.

I took a different approach to you. The question of 'why' and truth of the system itself made it all come tumbling down.

I can see one constantly adjusting the settings of their moral intuition to mold to something higher if they truly believe that it's the ultimate truth, but if I also must make a continued effort to believe it in the first place without a certain level of assurance, it just doesn't work. What happens when you start to question it, the entire thing? I did. I didn't leave Islam based on moral grounds myself. At first, I questioned the truth of the message, and when I couldn't find resonance or truth, and in fact found errors in objective truths, all the moldings came undone. It's interesting how you can finally admit something is off once it loses the divinity you've been told it had all your life.

All those barriers and obstacles to disbelief that you mentioned are real. It took me a while to go through the process, and I actually became hyper-religious somewhere along the way before I could shed it successfully. I disagree that it involves a completely new identity though. I would say I'm still pretty much the same person, but how much religion can be a significant part of your identity would differ from person to person, so that may vary to some extent, though not by much (I don't think).

You couldn't do it because you scratched too deep in your search for the truth. Like I said before, I do not let my mind wander into that abyss. I just take it as it is or else I will be opening a pandora's box. I have chosen to keep that door permanently shut but I can understand where you are coming from.

When it comes to some Islamic facts such as slavery or child marriage, I adopt a balancing act. Cannot bring myself to deny that they have a religious foundation as the evidence is overwhelming.

By new identity, I was referring to the fact that something has to fill the avoid that leaving Islam creates. Being a Muslim becomes part of one's identity as the Somali cultural identity is intertwined with Islam. But I guess it depends on how culturally 'Somali' one was to begin with.

 

[xisaabiye]

You couldn't do it because you scratched too deep in your search for the truth. Like I said before, I do not let my mind wander into that abyss. I just take it as it is or else I will be opening a pandora's box. I have chosen to keep that door permanently shut but I can understand where you are coming from.

When it comes to some Islamic facts such as slavery or child marriage, I adopt a balancing act. Cannot bring myself to deny that they have a religious foundation as the evidence is overwhelming.

By new identity, I was referring to the fact that something has to fill the avoid that leaving Islam creates. Being a Muslim becomes part of one's identity as the Somali cultural identity is intertwined with Islam. But I guess it depends on how culturally 'Somali' one was to begin with.

We discussed the former briefly albeit, but what do you mean by child marriage being an Islamic fact? A child is technically a prepubescent, once someone hits the age of puberty they're an adult. That's a historical fact. I'd hate to use this as evidence but If you watch G.O.T when Sanza was wedded to Joffrey they asked had she bled, in order to consummate the marriage. This was a historical norm, people weren't babied until 18, or 21 like in the west today.

 

[anonimo]

We discussed the former briefly albeit, but what do you mean by child marriage being an Islamic fact? A child is technically a prepubescent, once someone hits the age of puberty they're an adult. That's a historical fact. I'd hate to use this as evidence but If you watch G.O.T when Sanza was wedded to Joffrey they asked had she bled, in order to consummate the marriage. This was a historical norm, people weren't babied until 18, or 21 like in the west today.

I get you bro, but it has been proven that it is not safe for girls to give birth in their early teens if they are physically underdeveloped. Just because they can conceive does not mean that they are ready. In the developed world, some girls are starting to get their periods before the age of ten. Does that mean they are ready to have children?