You may know know about Laas geel, what about Dhaymoole/DhagaxKureh/Dhambalin iyo DhagaxNabiGalay?

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G

Garad

Grant said:
SF,

The Samaales have been pastoralist nomads for millennia. Just not in the eastern Horn, and early-on, not with camels. For people with a great calendar, Samaales have a lousy sense of time. The cultural need to connect to Arabia and the Prophet has been a detriment in recognizing the history of the Dir and other Samaale clans. The DNA evidence should now make this clear.

It so happens I am biased in favor of Samaales and not the reverse. It's just the false claims that offend me. The Eyle, Gabaweyn, Yibir and Madhibaan all have a right to their own histories. And the Samaales do not need to "borrow". They already have a fantastic history.

Just call me Beendiid.
clip_image001.png
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You’re offended by Somalis that are educated about their history? You are truly something else man! If you are, then why do you interact with us? You previously stated that nobody on somnet listens to you. Nor does anyone support the hogwash your spewing here either.

Moving on now. Although, Somalis do not descend from Arabs, we are genetically, linguistically, and physically closer to them than we are to Bantu people. Nor do the Yibir and other occupational clans have a separate history since they are all ethnic Somalis. They are even correctly labeled as Somalis in during the 16th century Futuh al-Habesha!

What “borrow”[ing] by Somalis are you referring to?
_____
Source:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Y...involume&q="The+somali+tribes+called+Yibberi"
http://www.somalispot.com/threads/grant-come-in.1075/#post-14954
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-3148.2006.00694_52.x/abstract

Grant said:
A "Somali" is an inhabitant of Somalia. A "Samaale" is a descendant or shegato of the Cushitic clans that now form the "4" of the 4.5 system. The Samaale do not include the Eyle or Gaboye, the Gabaweyn, Shabelli or Shidle, the Mushunguli or the Gosha. They do not include the Galgala or the Cadcads, the Bajuni or the Barawanni. They are the Laandheer clans, in historical and archaeological parlance, the descendants of the "proto-Sam".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaale

Samaale and Sab were the sons of Hiil. While the sons of Sab are relatively sedentary and speak Maay, the sons of Samaale are nomads and speak Maxatiri dialects.
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What on earth are you talking about? “Samaale” refers to the clan patriarch of the Dir, Hawiya and other smaller groups, as well as the maternal line for the Darod, Isaaq, and other smaller groups. They correspond to 3, not 4, of the 4.5 system. Nor are the all “Samaale” clans exclusively nomadic; many are also urban dwellers and argo-pastoralist. The same can be said about the Rahanweyn clans. More importantly, the term “Somali” is the ethnic name for Somalis and includes all Somalis clans. The Yibir and other groups are even listed as Somalis in during the 16th century Futuh al-Habesha.

Side note, why are you still using Wikipedia as your primary source?
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Source:
https://books.google.com/books?id=YgIwAQAAIAAJ&dq=yibir+somali+abyssinia&focus=searchwithinvolume&q="The+somali+tribes+called+Yibberi"
https://books.google.com/books?id=D...AMAAL WERE PROUD FARMERS AND HERDERS"&f=false
 
G

Garad

Grant said:
https://tvergasteinjournal.wordpress.com/peter-gufu-oba-rock-art-pastoralists-in-the-horn-of-africa/

"During the Neolithic period called Bovidian, the styles of the rock art enable various interpretations based on the depiction of livestock species such as ovids (goats) and capris (sheep) and Bovin (cattle). By about 8000 BP, the depictions in the rock art were mainly of ovicaprids and cattle.[49] The rock artists were predominantly concerned with the sources of their food during each period. Thus, the shift from the Paleolithic phase, which represented the hunter foragers, to Neolithic developments, which represented pastoralists, show shifts in food sources and society responses to climate and environmental changes.[50] The domestication of Bos primigenius (primitive cow) expanded into the Nile valley about 7000 BP;[51] this was the ancestor of the cattle breeds Bos taurus (the humpless long horned) and Bos indicus (the humped short horned zebu). Bos taurus was common during the humid phase of the climate, while Bos indicus became prominent with increased aridity. The depictions show that the rock art serves as a slow cinematic sequence of pastoral evolution to climate change, even when data from a single site is scrutinized. In particular, the gradual disappearance of Bos taurus and the popularity of Bos indicus in rock art sites strongly imply environmental adaptation since Bos indicus had better thirst tolerance than its predecessor. The camel was introduced later than the bovids during periods of increased aridity. [52] From the rock art across the region archaeologists have pieced together the regional migration patterns of the rock art pastoralists."

Hunter/forager/gatherer = Khoisan/Midgaan. Note that camels came much later and their depiction could indicate the presence of Samaales in the area, say after the 12th-13th centuries. Rock art is notoriously difficult to date.

The rock art pastoralists covered southern Arabia and most of Ethiopia. The article is well worth reading in its entirety.
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This WordPress site doesn't say that the rock arts of Laas geel, Dhaymoole, DhagaxKureh, Dhambalin, or DhagaxNabiGalay where done by the Khosians. It's making a broader statement about the entire region that the rock arts of the Neolithic era depict pastoralist in contrast to hunter gathers.

You can continue to deny this fact, but the rock arts of northern Somalia, such as Laas Geel, have already been concluded to have been done early Somalis.The Midgan are also not Khosians, but are in fact ethnic Somalis.
_____
Source:
https://phys.org/news/2011-04-grotto-galleries-early-somali-life.html
http://reliefweb.int/report/somalia/study-minorities-somalia

Grant said:
Luna,
That you have made the connection to the Berbers gives me hope you will eventually see the truth in the rest of what I have to say. The fables that were told at the time of independence to promote unity and nationalism have already come largely unglued. The DNA studies have shown the Samaales are not Arabs, as claimed. The language studies have shown multiple Mahaa dialects as well as the not-mutually-intelligible Maay language, which was finally recognized as a separate official Somali language at the Mbegathi Peace Conference, giving the lie to the notion all Somalis speak the same language. Taken together, the Gosha and Madowweyn, number well over a million. The numbers of the other minorities are unknown because of a lack of any true census and because they are subsumed by others as shegatos or otherwise suppressed. Some, like the Yibir and Madhibaan, are aware of their histories and are organizing. Here is a 2016 statement from the Shidle:

http://www.jowhar.com/2016/10/15/de...ty-hiran-and-middle-shabelle-state-formation/

"Shiidle is always peaceful clan and always supporting this state formation believing that the process is fair, impartial and transparent but it is obviously not at all. We are deceived. We are now fighting for our rights and fair share and we will never give up until we get our rights. Shiidle is a very dominant clan in Middle Shablee and their rights cannot be denied. We will never accept, in a very clear and loud voice, undermining us as well as the attempt to eradicate us within the very large and productive territory we occupy. This has already happened in all other States where Madowweyne Community – the psychological minority are nothing in those States. We can no longer accept giving everything to clans from one Community. This State is the last one where we have to get our rights and opportunity otherwise we assume as deliberate political elimination of indigenous tribes and their history in Somali territory. We are not immigrants and cannot be treated as immigrants. We own the land."

Notice the use of the word "indigenous". These folks are discovering their history and will not be put down. It is a separate history from Samaales, and it is high time the Samaales recognized the fact. The Somali people are NOT all the same and it is becoming increasingly necessary to be able to distinguish among them. I will continue using the term "Samaale".
Click to expand...

The claim that some of these Bantu groups are indigenous to Somalia originated in the mid-20th century and has now been thoroughly discredited. There are no references to any Negroid group inhabiting the Horn of Africa or southeastern Africa by any ancient or classical text discussing either region. The demographic of southeastern Africa, however, would dramatically change as indicated by medieval Arab geographers.

The fact that a few Bantus have adopted the former view is no different from some African Americans claiming to be indigenous to North America. There is simply no bases for it. The clear majority of Bantus are aware of their origins as slaves. Those whom claim that they are indigenous to Somalia are seek to elevate their status in the country. An example of this can clear be seen in the link you provided in regard to the lands issue.
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Source:
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/periplus.asp
https://books.google.com/books?id=mlhyAAAAMAAJ&q="where+a+group+of+cultivators+still+claimed,+in+the+early+twentieth+century,+to+be+descendants+of+the+slaves+of+the+Ajuraan."&dq="where+a+group+of+cultivators+still+claimed,+in+the+early+twentieth+century,+to+be+descendants+of+the+slaves+of+the+Ajuraan."&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP4dCGrb7SAhWf0YMKHWg7CsYQ6AEIHDAA
https://books.google.com/books?id=f...silence on slavery in the hopes that"&f=false

Regarding Maay and other Somali variations, under Somali law Maay is officially regarded as a dialect. Do you have a source for the Peace Conference?
_____
Source:
https://unpos.unmissions.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=RkJTOSpoMME=
 
G

Grant

VIP
Garad said:
This WordPress site doesn't say that the rock arts of Laas geel, Dhaymoole, DhagaxKureh, Dhambalin, or DhagaxNabiGalay where done by the Khosians. It's making a broader statement about the entire region that the rock arts of the Neolithic era depict pastoralist in contrast to hunter gathers.

You can continue to deny this fact, but the rock arts of northern Somalia, such as Laas Geel, have already been concluded to have been done early Somalis.The Midgan are also not Khosians, but are in fact ethnic Somalis.
_____
Source:
https://phys.org/news/2011-04-grotto-galleries-early-somali-life.html
http://reliefweb.int/report/somalia/study-minorities-somalia



The claim that some of these Bantu groups are indigenous to Somalia originated in the mid-20th century and has now been thoroughly discredited. There are no references to any Negroid group inhabiting the Horn of Africa or southeastern Africa by any ancient or classical text discussing either region. The demographic of southeastern Africa, however, would dramatically change as indicated by medieval Arab geographers.

The fact that a few Bantus have adopted the former view is no different from some African Americans claiming to be indigenous to North America. There is simply no bases for it. The clear majority of Bantus are aware of their origins as slaves. Those whom claim that they are indigenous to Somalia are seek to elevate their status in the country. An example of this can clear be seen in the link you provided in regard to the lands issue.
_____
Source:
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/periplus.asp
https://books.google.com/books?id=mlhyAAAAMAAJ&q="where+a+group+of+cultivators+still+claimed,+in+the+early+twentieth+century,+to+be+descendants+of+the+slaves+of+the+Ajuraan."&dq="where+a+group+of+cultivators+still+claimed,+in+the+early+twentieth+century,+to+be+descendants+of+the+slaves+of+the+Ajuraan."&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP4dCGrb7SAhWf0YMKHWg7CsYQ6AEIHDAA
https://books.google.com/books?id=fUksBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA69&dq='Somali+Bantu+living+in+Somalia+during+the+1970s+implemented+the+practice+of+strategic+silence+on+slavery+in+the+hopes+that"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBq6LFr4PTAhWK6CYKHW7NDT4Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q='Somali Bantu living in Somalia during the 1970s implemented the practice of strategic silence on slavery in the hopes that"&f=false

Regarding Maay and other Somali variations, under Somali law Maay is officially regarded as a dialect. Do you have a source for the Peace Conference?
_____
Source:
https://unpos.unmissions.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=RkJTOSpoMME=
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Garaad,

Who concluded what you're spouting?? Certainly not any currently credible academic. The notion that the Shabelli, Shidle, Makane and Gabaweyn were Ajuraan slaves is just not tenable. The best you are going to be able to do is "clients", and that probably did not apply to all groups. Negroid tribes such as the Ari made it out of the Sahara and into Ethiopia. What would have stopped them following the rivers down to the plain? They certainly preceded the Hawiyya migration down the Shabelli and they certainly are not Bantu.

I will accept a link to the DNA study that says the Midgan, Eyle, etc are not Khoisan/pre-Cushitic. I don't think you are going to find one.

The link for the Mbegathi Peace Conference, again:

https://books.google.com/books/about/English_Maay_Dictionary.html?id=TexiAAAAMAAJ
'
Just as you have tried to take the Samaales out the Cushitic context, you are trying to take Laas Gaal out of the context of Ethio/Arab rock art. It just doesn't work.

Please note again that there is a difference between Samaale and Somali. I will give you that the Gaboye are Somali.
 
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G

Garad

Not only are you suffering from denialism, but you’re also contradicting yourself. You state that the Madhiban are not Somalis, but at the same time conclude that the “Gaboye” (another name for the Madhiban) are Somalis? You also conclude that the rock arts are Ethio-Arabian, but still insist that it was done by Khoisans. Choose one of the two.

If you bothered to examine the books as well as the articles I cited, then you would know which credible documents that I obtained my information. As my sources have already pointed out, the Shidle, as well as other groups, are aware of the fact that they are not indigenous to Somalia. However, some seek to alter the origins in a bid to elevate their social status in Somalia. Maay is also still officially regarded as a Somali dialect. Also, how did you conclude that the Ari lived in Somalia and where did I say Somalis weren’t Cushitic?
______
Sources:
https://unpos.unmissions.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=RkJTOSpoMME=
https://books.google.com/books?id=mlhyAAAAMAAJ&q="where+a+group+of+cultivators+still+claimed,+in+the+early+twentieth+century,+to+be+descendants+of+the+slaves+of+the+Ajuraan."&dq="where+a+group+of+cultivators+still+claimed,+in+the+early+twentieth+century,+to+be+descendants+of+the+slaves+of+the+Ajuraan."&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP4dCGrb7SAhWf0YMKHWg7CsYQ6AEIHDAA
https://books.google.com/books?id=f...silence on slavery in the hopes that"&f=false
 
G

Grant

VIP
Garaad,

I seem to be repeating things a lot. Samaale is not Somali.

http://www.jowhar.com/2016/10/15/de...ty-hiran-and-middle-shabelle-state-formation/

The statement from the Sultan of the Shidle, Sultan AhmedRashid Sheik Shuaib, was dated October 15, 2016. He states that the Shidle are indigenous.

I suggest you address your question on the present status of the Maay language to Speaker of the House Jawari. :cool:
 
G

Garad

What I wrote wasn't a question, but rather a statement so there's no need to inform the current Speaker of Parliament. Plus, multiple individuals hailing from the Rahanweyn clan have also served as Speaker of Parliament since the 60's. So, if you were mentioning Jawaris due to his clan and his ability to speak in the Maay dialect, then it was pretty much irrelevant. If you don't agree with my statements, then by all means read the Somali Constitution yourself.
______
Source:
https://unpos.unmissions.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=RkJTOSpoMME=

The Sultan of the Shidle simply seeks to elevate the status of his community in regard to state formation and the land issue. It's no different from what other Bantu individuals were doing in the 70's.
_____
Source:
https://books.google.com/books?id=fUksBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA69&dq='Somali+Bantu+living+in+Somalia+during+the+1970s+implemented+the+practice+of+strategic+silence+on+slavery+in+the+hopes+that"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBq6LFr4PTAhWK6CYKHW7NDT4Q6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q='Somali Bantu living in Somalia during the 1970s implemented the practice of strategic silence on slavery in the hopes that"&f=false

Nobody here understands why you keep regurgitating the same nonsense despite being disproved. I suggest your refrain from derailing threads with you hogwash claims
 
G

Grant

VIP
Garaad,

You keep referring to the Shidle, etc. as Bantu. This is untrue and, in your case, is a pejorative statement meant to demean.. The Shidle never spoke a Bantu language and were never slaves of the Ajuraan. The regurgitated nonsense is not coming from me.

Here's the provisional version of the Constitution:

"The official language of the Federal Republic of Somalia is Somali (Maay and Maxaatiri), and Arabic is the second language."

While not perfect or really correct, this is a big improvement over claiming Somalis spoke only a single language.
 
G

Grant

VIP
Read what you post, Garaad:

"The region had vast Cushitic, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic Empires that at times formed part of the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures of Southern Arabia, the Aksumite Empire and early Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa. The coastal populations were active seafarers according to Greek records as well as archaeological remains, linking to the Phoenician and Graeco-Roman worlds. They also formed part of an early global economy including the Silk Road. Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa show an enormous wealth of long-distance trade—including material from Tang Dynasty to Ming Dynasty China—and the magnitude of some of their capitals such as the ruined town and burials of Aw-Barkhadle."

Aw-Barkhadle was controlled by the Yibir until the 12th century. Anything that would involve Samaales is later than that. The traders knew the northern Somali coast as the "cinnamon coast", because that was the chief commodity traded. It was a local secret that the cinnamon came from India and points east. Did you notice Himyar and Saba? Check the thread on the Omani Empire. They were the ones building the ships and doing the early shipping that went outward. Google the Belitung ship. It made it to Indonesia in the 9th century AD.
 
G

Garad

Grant said:
Read what you post, Garaad:

"The region had vast Cushitic, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic Empires that at times formed part of the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures of Southern Arabia, the Aksumite Empire and early Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa. The coastal populations were active seafarers according to Greek records as well as archaeological remains, linking to the Phoenician and Graeco-Roman worlds. They also formed part of an early global economy including the Silk Road. Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa show an enormous wealth of long-distance trade—including material from Tang Dynasty to Ming Dynasty China—and the magnitude of some of their capitals such as the ruined town and burials of Aw-Barkhadle."

Aw-Barkhadle was controlled by the Yibir until the 12th century. Anything that would involve Samaales is later than that. The traders knew the northern Somali coast as the "cinnamon coast", because that was the chief commodity traded. It was a local secret that the cinnamon came from India and points east. Did you notice Himyar and Saba? Check the thread on the Omani Empire. They were the ones building the ships and doing the early shipping that went outward. Google the Belitung ship. It made it to Indonesia in the 9th century AD.
Click to expand...
The Himayr and other Arabian groups didn't control northern Somalia. The ports on the northern coast were actually indigenous settlements as were its traders which is clearly indicated in the Periplus. However, Southern Arabian cultural influences can clearly be seen in the loanwords that Somalis acquired. This is something that couldn't be explained by the northbound migration theory.
_______
Source:
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.asp
https://books.google.com/books?id=2...ved=0ahUKEwj7vbmC0JHTAhXEOiYKHZe3D2QQ6AEIHDAA

The Yibirs are nothing more than ethnic Somalis. Less than a few centuries after Aw Barkhalde, the Yibir are even listed as serving along side other Somalis in the Conquest of Abyssinia.
_______
Source:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Y...involume&q="The+somali+tribes+called+Yibberi"

I repeat, this thread isn't about the Periplus or medieval Somalia.
 
G

Grant

VIP
Garad said:
The Himayr and other Arabian groups didn't control northern Somalia. The ports on the northern coast were actually indigenous settlements as were its traders which is clearly indicated in the Periplus. However, Southern Arabian cultural influences can clearly be seen in the loanwords that Somalis acquired. This is something that couldn't be explained by the northbound migration theory.
_______
Source:
http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.asp
https://books.google.com/books?id=2Nu918tYMB8C&pg=PA13&dq="This+document+indicates+that+the+Barbaroi,+meaning+the+inhabitants+of+northern+Somali+coasts,+were+trading+with+the+inhabitants+of+Arabia+before+Islam;+they+were+also+trading+with+Egypt,+then+under+the+Romans."&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7vbmC0JHTAhXEOiYKHZe3D2QQ6AEIHDAA

The Yibirs are nothing more than ethnic Somalis. Less than a few centuries after Aw Barkhalde, the Yibir are even listed as serving along side other Somalis in the Conquest of Abyssinia.
_______
Source:
https://books.google.com/books?id=YgIwAQAAIAAJ&dq=yibir+somali+abyssinia&focus=searchwithinvolume&q="The+somali+tribes+called+Yibberi"

I repeat, this thread isn't about the Periplus or medieval Somalia.
Click to expand...


Garaad,

According to both the Yibir and Midgan, they were enslaved and converted to Islam in the early 13th century. This means they would have been Muslim for at least two centuries at the time of the Futuh.

As "Friends of the Emperors", Himyar traded directly with Rome. Their sources were in Azania, Indonesia, etc. They had no need for the small ports south on the Gulf of Aden.

If this isn't about the Periplus or the Medieval period, why list the Periplus and the Futuh as your sources?

The northbound migration theory has no problem with Arabic loanwords. They don't exist in Maay, which is exactly what you would expect from a south to north migration. The North picked up the Arabic after moving into proximity with the Arabs and probably after converting to Islam. Shaykh Uways al Baraawe was still converting the interior South in the early 1900's, so the difference is not all that surprising.

What is it about your sense of time?
 
G

Garad

Interesting, you're now downplaying the significance of the far-side ports. On the contrary, many of items exported by the Berbers (i.e Somalis) were highly lucrative to the ancient Romans. Large specialized ships were used to sail directly to these ports. These ports were highly significant for their exports and their linkage with other major trading locations.
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Source:
https://books.google.com/books?id=XsvDDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA162&dq="The+trade+potteries+excavated+at+Ras+Hafun+further+indicate+that+the+“far+side”+ports+were+commercially+significant,+linking+the+Hafun+“campsites”+to+the+Red+Sea+region"&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj53pfmn5XTAhUI8CYKHeTZBiYQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q="The trade potteries excavated at Ras Hafun further indicate that the “far side” ports were commercially significant, linking the Hafun “campsites” to the Red Sea region, the Arab-Persian Gulf, south Arabian coast and the Indian subcontinent"&f=false
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/periplus.asp

Nor were the Yibirs (not even mentioned in your link) or the Madhiban “enslaved” by other Somalis. The rest of my reply can be found on the other discussion that I link bellow.
______
Source:
http://www.somalispot.com/threads/the-first-mention-of-somali.21750/page-2#post-525246

Anyways, I wasn't referring to Arabic, but rather Southern Arabian languages. Even then, Maay certainly has been influenced by Arabic but not in the same degree as costal Somali dialects. In addition, the clear majority of Somalis (including the south) had already converted to Islam centuries before the 1900’s. The missionary activities by Sheikh Uways were done in southeastern Africa.
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Source:
https://books.google.com/books?id=n... Congo, Mozambique, and Madagascar."?&f=false

My references to the Periplus and medieval documents were due to the inaccurate statements you made regarding them. I by no means brought them up. In fact, you’re the individual that initiated the discussion regarding medieval Somalia. I reiterate again, stop derailing this thread any further. I suggest taking this discussion to the thread you recently started.
______
Source:
http://www.somalispot.com/threads/the-first-mention-of-somali.21750/
 
G

Grant

VIP
Garaad,

Please go back and read the Periplus. The north coast was the Cape of Spices, the Cinnamon Coast, with five differnet varieties, and cloves. They traded in copper sheet and imported cloaks, iron and iron tools. They exported ...."ivory, and tortoise-shell and rhinoceros-horn"....".spices, a little ivory, tortoise-shell, and a very little myrrh, but better than the rest.".... a little frankincense (that known as “far-side”), the harder cinnamon, duaca, Indian copal and macir, which are imported into Arabia; and slaves, but rarely"...."the incense called mocrotu cinnamon, (and its different varieties, gizir, asypha, arebo, magla, and moto) and frankincense."

As you say, the cinnamon trade required larger than normal ships.. It was a port secret that the spices, which were the principle trade, were not local.

It doesn't sound like you read the link to the Yibir, so let's try this again:

https://www.geneticliteracyproject....ews-in-somalia-tracing-remnants-of-the-yibir/
 
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