Xamar was established by nomads

[Banadiri Warrior]

I use the sources of credible scholars like Cassanelli, Njoku, and Trimingham to prove my claims as well as other reputable sources like Cambridge. You use random unverified manuscripts. We are not the same. You can continue coping about your people faking their history.

I don't need foreigners to confirm my history, obviously you'd use foreigners to learn about other people's history.

 

[Slickster]

Nomads do not build cities. Their life is a nomadic life They do not settle anywhere and do not live on the coast

This is the caqli of the Sumale race. Truly a people who reject even their own humanity.

 

[hanif#]

it was an ottoman territory

that doesn't mean Arab were ruling that part for a long time it was only when it was under ottoman control

Al Mukha was under the sovereignty of the Imam of Sana'a for most of it's history except for brief periods in which it come under foreign rule. So yes Arabs were ruling Zeila from 1600 to to until the Ottomans(Egyptian) took control of it in the middle of 19th century

 

[Zak12]

Al Mukha was under the sovereignty of the Imam of Sana'a for most of it's history except for brief periods in which it come under foreign rule. So yes Arabs were ruling Zeila from 1600 to to until the Ottomans(Egyptian) took control of it in the middle of 19th century

It was under their rule starting 1630 until Shermarke Ali Saleh took it from them

 

[attash]

Zero correlation whatsoever, he wasn't from any samaale clan , samaale's didn't reside in Muqdisho at the time and you've got no way to prove it. Local manuscripts written by natives take precedence over foreign eye witnesses, if what the travelers says agrees with the known history of muqdisho then it's taken simple as that. Banaadiri isn't an ethnic group, simply means people of Banaadir doesn't need to be mentioned because the whole coast was inhabited by banaadiris not specific areas just like how whole Swahili coast was inhabited by swahilis or whole bajuni coast was inhabited by bajunis

That source is incorrect, we don't need Italian sources to tell us about our alliances when we know it ourselves .

Yacquub is an alliance of
1- Reer Cali Imaam
2- Faqi Cali ( Shaanshi)
3-Abaakarow ( Hatimi)
4- Abdisamad

View attachment 306959
580 covers Yacquub alliance+ Ba Fadhal.
View attachment 306960

Same thing mentioned in Shariif Caydaruus book.

I said half of the 650 would be gibil cad as in the census the 650 covers reer sheekh and the seddex geedi which is an alliance of

1- Aadandheere ( Gibil Cad)
2- Indhoweyne (mixed confederacy)
3- Ba Sadiq (Gibil Cad)
4- Alaa-uddin ( Gibil Cad)
5 - Reer Cabdalla ( garjante)
6- Cawaale ( hawiye caye)
View attachment 306961

I finally found the time to read through the sources and calculate the numbers.

Let’s pick up where we dropped off at Saddex Geedi. Just by looking at the picture you showed, I see that you left out four clans who are all gibil madow:

- Waceysle Abgaal
- Silcis
- Wacdaan
- Baadicadde

Furthermore, the Indhoweyne is vast majority gibil madow as they trace their origins to Wacdaan Mudulood.

1- Aadandheere ( Gibil Cad)
2- Indhoweyne (Wacdaan)
3- Ba Sadiq (Gibil Cad)
4- Alaa-uddin ( Gibil Cad)
5 - Reer Cabdalla ( garjante)
6- Cawaale ( hawiye caye)
7- Wacdaan (unspecified subs)
8- Silcis
9- Waceysle
10- Baadicadde
11- Reer Sheikh

Making 4 gibil cad clans and 7 gibil madow clans. We’ll say this is 3/4 gibil madow, since some of the gibil madow clans are quite large.

I won't dispute your figures for Yacquub, Bandhawoow & Guudmane, and Iskaashato

As for Dhabarweyne & Shaanshi, Shaanshi's numbers are already split between this confederation and Yacquub. It would be more fair to say they make up a third.

Reer Maanyo is a similar case, where Ba Mukhtar's numbers are split between this confederation and Iskaashato. Let's say this confederation is 50/50.

Of course, Amoudi, Ashraaf, and Rer Faqi are all completely gibil cad.

Murusade is of course completely gibil madow. As for Jasiira, they are Sheekhaal, which is a gibil madow clan in a literal sense. However, they have heavy Arab admixture though, so it is difficult to classify what they are. They didn't even live in the city at the time though, according to the Italian census, so I won't include them.

Yacquub: 1/3 mad (193), 2/3 cad (387)

Ashraaf: cad (600)

Amoudi: cad (670)

Reer Sheikh & Saddex Geedi: 3/4 mad (488), 1/4 cad (162)

Reer Maanyo: 1/2 mad (277), 1/2 cad (277)

Reer Faqi: 1/1 cad (340)

Dhabarweyne & Shaanshi: 2/3 mad(758), 1/3 cad (379)

Moorshe: 4/5 mad (548), 1/5 cad (137)

Iskaashato: 1/3 mad (368), 2/3 cad (552)

Murusade: mad (730)

Bandhawoow & Guudmane: 2/3 mad (834), 1/3 cad (416)


Thus the local inhabitants are (using your methods and sources):

Gibil Madow: 4,132 (51%)
Gibil Cad: 3,982 (49%)

A close majority, but still a majority.

 

[Zak12]

I finally found the time to read through the sources and calculate the numbers.

Let’s pick up where we dropped off at Saddex Geedi. Just by looking at the picture you showed, I see that you left out four clans who are all gibil madow:

- Waceysle Abgaal
- Silcis
- Wacdaan
- Baadicadde

Furthermore, the Indhoweyne is vast majority gibil madow as they trace their origins to Wacdaan Mudulood.

1- Aadandheere ( Gibil Cad)
2- Indhoweyne (Wacdaan)
3- Ba Sadiq (Gibil Cad)
4- Alaa-uddin ( Gibil Cad)
5 - Reer Cabdalla ( garjante)
6- Cawaale ( hawiye caye)
7- Wacdaan (unspecified subs)
8- Silcis
9- Waceysle
10- Baadicadde
11- Reer Sheikh

Making 4 gibil cad clans and 7 gibil madow clans. We’ll say this is 3/4 gibil madow, since some of the gibil madow clans are quite large.

View attachment 307678

I won't dispute your figures for Yacquub, Bandhawoow & Guudmane, and Iskaashato

As for Dhabarweyne & Shaanshi, Shaanshi's numbers are already split between this confederation and Yacquub. It would be more fair to say they make up a third.

Reer Maanyo is a similar case, where Ba Mukhtar's numbers are split between this confederation and Iskaashato. Let's say this confederation is 50/50.

Of course, Amoudi, Ashraaf, and Rer Faqi are all completely gibil cad.

Murusade is of course completely gibil madow. As for Jasiira, they are Sheekhaal, which is a gibil madow clan in a literal sense. However, they have heavy Arab admixture though, so it is difficult to classify what they are. They didn't even live in the city at the time though, according to the Italian census, so I won't include them.

View attachment 307679


Yacquub: 1/3 mad (193), 2/3 cad (387)

Ashraaf: cad (600)

Amoudi: cad (670)

Reer Sheikh & Saddex Geedi: 3/4 mad (488), 1/4 cad (162)

Reer Maanyo: 1/2 mad (277), 1/2 cad (277)

Reer Faqi: 1/1 cad (340)

Dhabarweyne & Shaanshi: 2/3 mad(758), 1/3 cad (379)

Moorshe: 4/5 mad (548), 1/5 cad (137)

Iskaashato: 1/3 mad (368), 2/3 cad (552)

Murusade: mad (730)

Bandhawoow & Guudmane: 2/3 mad (834), 1/3 cad (416)


Thus the local inhabitants are (using your methods and sources):

Gibil Madow: 4,132 (51%)
Gibil Cad: 3,982 (49%)

A close majority, but still a majority.

Closer than I thought lol. But it begs the question as to why cadcads weren't seen as very important politically. IIRC, the Italians dedicated 6 pages to the Abgaal in their analysis of Xamar while cads and other minorities were given like half a page. No doubt the ruling class was mostly ethnic Somali/Gibil Madow

 

[attash]

Closer than I thought lol. But it begs the question as to why cadcads weren't seen as very important politically. IIRC, the Italians dedicated 6 pages to the Abgaal in their analysis of Xamar while cads and other minorities were given like half a page. No doubt the ruling class was mostly ethnic Somali/Gibil Madow

This is true. All majority gibil cad confederations have Somali names or originated from Somali clans. "Reer Maanyo" is a Somali name. Iskaashato and Yacquub have origins in Somali clans (Moorshe & Abgaal, respectively). And of course gibil cads among the reer xamar speak Somali dialects.

@Banadiri Warrior claims Xamar was historically dominated and ruled by gibil cads. Why would the people running the place speak the language of their subjects, name their own families using their subjects' language, and even join their subjects' clans? Make it make sense.

 

[Zak12]

This is true. All majority gibil cad confederations have Somali names or originated from Somali clans. "Reer Maanyo" is a Somali name. Iskaashato and Yacquub have origins in Somali clans (Moorshe & Abgaal, respectively). And of course gibil cads among the reer xamar spoke Somali dialects.

@Banadiri Warrior claims Xamar was historically dominated and ruled by gibil cads. Why would the people running the place speak the language of their subjects, name their own families using their subjects' language, and even join their subjects' clans? Make it make sense.

Yep. Assuming the gibil cad origins to being Arabs is true, it makes no sense as to how this suppoesdly ancient/medieval Arab elite decided to speak their subjects language and adopt their lineages. Whenever Arabs migrate in large numbers into Africa, their language becomes lingua franca of the region and they segregate themselves from the main populace due to obsessing with purity. Even in the Swahili coast where Bantu languages (albeit heavily influenced by Arabic) managed to stay important, the locals still claim descent from random Arabs/Persians whereas Somalis only explictly claim descent from Muhammad's family.

 

[Al Adnani]

Yep. Assuming the gibil cad origins to being Arabs is true, it makes no sense as to how this suppoesdly ancient/medieval Arab elite decided to speak their subjects language and adopt their lineages. Whenever Arabs migrate in large numbers into Africa, their language becomes lingua franca of the region and they segregate themselves from the main populace due to obsessing with purity. Even in the Swahili coast where Bantu languages (albeit heavily influenced by Arabic) managed to stay important, the locals still claim descent from random Arabs/Persians whereas Somalis only explictly claim descent from Muhammad's family.

Most benadiris speak Arabic

 

[attash]

Most benadiris speak Arabic

Every cadcad Benaadiri that I've met speaks Somali as a first language. Those in Baraawe speak Chimwini, though.

 

[Al Adnani]

Every cadcad Benaadiri that I've met speaks Somali as a first language. Those in Baraawe speak Chimwini, though.

If you go back home and speak with them, they can speak in Arabic. Even their Khutbah are in Arabic. Several xamaraawi’s have attested this to me already

 

[attash]

If you go back home and speak with them, they can speak in Arabic. Even their Khutbah are in Arabic. Several xamaraawi’s have attested this to me already

A lot of Somalis back home in general can speak Arabic. Do Banaadiris speak Arabic as their first language though? If so, which lahja?

 

[killerxsmoke]

If you go back home and speak with them, they can speak in Arabic. Even their Khutbah are in Arabic. Several xamaraawi’s have attested this to me already

Barely any of them speak arabic lol, when they do khutbah every mosque in somalia start with arabic then they translate it with somali

 

[Al Adnani]

A lot of Somalis back home in general can speak Arabic. Do Banaadiris speak Arabic as their first language though? If so, which lahja?

Hadrahmi I would presume since most benadiris claim to be 7adārima in origin. Most benadiri history accounts on twitter also strictly tweet in Arabic. I have spoken to benadiris in spaces before and all spoke Arabic. I see lot of Somalis try conflating the so called lack of arabness in benadiris compared to Rashida in Eritrea for example, but Benadiris have been in Somalia for much longer than Rashida have been in Eritrea, and in recent years, they have become a minority in almost all cities they reside in. Of course they will speak the language of the majority, it is only logical. As opposed to Rashida who are mostly semi nomadic and live a more isolated lifestyle, whereas benadiris are more integrated

 

[Al Adnani]

Barely any of them speak arabic lol, when they do khutbah every mosque in somalia start with arabic then they translate it with somali

No offence I dont take you seriously when it comes to debates like this.

 

[Zak12]

If you go back home and speak with them, they can speak in Arabic. Even their Khutbah are in Arabic. Several xamaraawi’s have attested this to me already

Lots of Somalis can speak Arabic. Its an unofficial language in Somalia for a reason. Benadiris obviously don't have Arabic as their native tongue since they speak a unique dialect of Somali

 

[Al Adnani]

Lots of Somalis can speak Arabic. Its an unofficial language in Somalia for a reason. Benadiris obviously don't have Arabic as their native tongue since they speak a unique dialect of Somali

First of all, it’s an official language so right off the bat you said something incorrect. Secondly, Somalis in the south barely speak Arabic, the only community where it is spoken at a high rate is the Benadiri community. Are you trying to insinuate benadiris (obvious foreigners) have Somali rather than Arabic as their native tongue?

 

[Zak12]

the only community where it is spoken at a high rate is the Benadiri

The problem is that there is no proof of this, nor are there any reliable statistics of the numbers of Benadiri/Cads in the country. There are probably only around 50,000 in the country at this point but that is just my guess. Arabic has millions of speakers from north to south.

Are you trying to insinuate benadiris (obvious foreigners) have Somali rather than Arabic

Yes because Benadiris aren't foreigners. They are about 40% Somali genetically and have their own dialect. Maybe their ancestors spoke Arabic (along with Persian, Swahili and Hindi) but they no longer speak it as a mother tongue.

 

[killerxsmoke]

No offence I dont take you seriously when it comes to debates like this.

My guy your from somaliland you barely should be in this topic, while I have been in Mogadishu and went to their mosque I know what it's like there

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

This is true. All majority gibil cad confederations have Somali names or originated from Somali clans. "Reer Maanyo" is a Somali name. Iskaashato and Yacquub have origins in Somali clans (Moorshe & Abgaal, respectively). And of course gibil cads among the reer xamar speak Somali dialects.

@Banadiri Warrior claims Xamar was historically dominated and ruled by gibil cads. Why would the people running the place speak the language of their subjects, name their own families using their subjects' language, and even join their subjects' clans? Make it make sense.

Iskaashato is a seperate confederacy from Moorsho, Moorsho is another confederacy not a clan . Reer Cali Imaam are from Abgaal not all of what was the Yacquub alliance, which doesn't exist anymore.

Gibil Cads mostly speak Af Maadoonte along the coast with different variances, There's no gibil cad that joined gibil madow lineages.