Neo-Qablism
Why somaliland and not somalia
- Thread starter Hared
- Start date
no no this is a terrible idea your just reinforces qablism. You are trying to capture to birds with only 1 stone this will end in failure
Garaad Awal
Former African
The FGS is not an organic state created by the natives via an indigenous political process, it was founded & implanted artificially by Westerners in Nairobi. It was designed to be ineffective as it was also the West who tampered in the civil war in the south after the collapse of Barre with the CIA giving out briefcases full of money to different USC factions & other militias and eventually invading during the Bush adminstration.
Compared to SL which had our intra-Isaaq civil war and political processes with the non-Isaaqs without foreign meddling which then gave us a chance to create an organic state from the ground up. Anyone who thinks keeping the current FGS & keeping the foreign armies will one day to lead to a strong Somalia is delusional
I agree with your 1st paragraph, 2nd paragraph. So wouldnt that make somaliland an un-organic state aswell? you cite an intra-isaaw civil war (Never heard bout this) Didnt the rest of somalia go through this aswell?
Exactly my thoughts when I see people applauding the Turkey MoU EAC etc. It genuinely makes me wonder where the trust comes from? I want success for Somalis ofc but the system put in place and leading us is qouestionable and it didn’t prove itself to be effective so far.
As for the Somaliland being organic rather than the result of meddling part, I never thought of it this way, and I do agree that could be where the difference in the governing systems comes from.
Garaad Awal
Former African
How is it aritifical? SL was created by locals via local indigienous political processes, it wasn't created by shaking hands with Hillary Clinton. Yes even SL was meddled but the West largely forgot about us which was actually in our favor.
Goes to show you know very little about a country you obviously hate. Not surprised.
Somalia did but their civil war was being heavily meddled by the Western powers primarily US/CIA using money & weapons to influence political outcomes in their favour.
Here's an excerpt from an interview with President Cigaal back in 1999 about these Westerners and their meddling:
The following interview was given to journalists in Hargeisa by Mohamed Egal, who was elected President of Somaliland at the Boroma conference in 1993 and reelected in 1997. Somaliland declared independence in May 1991, but has received no formal international recognition. The interview took place at the presidential office of state in Hargeisa, the capital of Somaliland.
Question: Somaliland is receiving quite a lot of money from the European Union to be implemented by Habitat. Can you say in concrete terms how this helps?
Answer: First of all let me tell you that Non-governmental Organisations (NGOs) and international agencies are the only international presence we have here in Somaliland. There was a time when there was an element of confrontation in our relationship. We have discovered that was not to our advantage since they are the only presence we have from the international community. We now skirt around them very, very gingerly.
Question: What does it mean for the people of Somaliland that the international community is specifically helping Somaliland?
Answer: Well I don't think there is any specific help, it is the first time we are receiving help through Habitat and the EU. But let me tell you something - I don't know whether it is the money given to unrecognised countries or whether it is a case for all Third World countries which crave aid from the advanced world, but it is given in a very peculiar way.
Nobody asks us what we need or how we want to be helped. For example, this particular project is very much appreciated, but we do not know anything about it. We were just told: "We are going to do something for you in Berbera, and come and have a look atit!" - that sort of thing. We have a saying - you can only quench your thirst by lifting the water with your own hands. Nobody can be helped by the whim of somebody outside, it must be with input from the people being helped. That's the only way.
We are very grateful for the crumbs we are given here, but it is not benefiting us - it is being imposed. For example, Berbera is my home town, so many of the opposition believe I am favouring it. They think I have influenced Habitat to help Berbera. That might have been the intention of Habitat for all I know! ... but the point is, we are very grateful for what we get. Heaven knows, we need help to rebuild this country. We have stabilised it, we have pacified it, we have disarmed all the tribal militiawithout any assistance from anybody. And you cannot build a country with empty hands. We have done a miracle.
Their civil war was in 1994 if I’m not mistaken. And when they were building their state or government all eyes were on moqadishu so he’s kinda right they had less meddling in the way their government was formed, they had a chance to build something that works and benefits them.
“There was a time when there was an element of confrontation in our relationship. We have discovered that was not to our advantage since they are the only presence we have from the international community. We now skirt around them very, very gingerly.”How is it aritifical? SL was created by locals via local indigienous political processes, it wasn't created by shaking hands with Hillary Clinton. Yes even SL was meddled but the West largely forgot about us which was actually in our favor.
Goes to show you know very little about a country you obviously hate. Not surprised.
Somalia did but their civil war was being heavily meddled by the Western powers primarily US/CIA using money & weapons to influence political outcomes in their favour.
Here's an excerpt from an interview with President Cigaal back in 1999 about these Westerners and their meddling:
The following interview was given to journalists in Hargeisa by Mohamed Egal, who was elected President of Somaliland at the Boroma conference in 1993 and reelected in 1997. Somaliland declared independence in May 1991, but has received no formal international recognition. The interview took place at the presidential office of state in Hargeisa, the capital of Somaliland.
Question: Somaliland is receiving quite a lot of money from the European Union to be implemented by Habitat. Can you say in concrete terms how this helps?
Answer: First of all let me tell you that Non-governmental Organisations (NGOs) and international agencies are the only international presence we have here in Somaliland. There was a time when there was an element of confrontation in our relationship. We have discovered that was not to our advantage since they are the only presence we have from the international community. We now skirt around them very, very gingerly.
Question: What does it mean for the people of Somaliland that the international community is specifically helping Somaliland?
Answer: Well I don't think there is any specific help, it is the first time we are receiving help through Habitat and the EU. But let me tell you something - I don't know whether it is the money given to unrecognised countries or whether it is a case for all Third World countries which crave aid from the advanced world, but it is given in a very peculiar way.
Nobody asks us what we need or how we want to be helped. For example, this particular project is very much appreciated, but we do not know anything about it. We were just told: "We are going to do something for you in Berbera, and come and have a look atit!" - that sort of thing. We have a saying - you can only quench your thirst by lifting the water with your own hands. Nobody can be helped by the whim of somebody outside, it must be with input from the people being helped. That's the only way.
We are very grateful for the crumbs we are given here, but it is not benefiting us - it is being imposed. For example, Berbera is my home town, so many of the opposition believe I am favouring it. They think I have influenced Habitat to help Berbera. That might have been the intention of Habitat for all I know! ... but the point is, we are very grateful for what we get. Heaven knows, we need help to rebuild this country. We have stabilised it, we have pacified it, we have disarmed all the tribal militiawithout any assistance from anybody. And you cannot build a country with empty hands. We have done a miracle.
It seems like he was hinting at something here lol. Question, do you think the leadership you have now is opposed to foreign meddling the same way the old ones were?
Good rundown from your perspective, I will say I do respect your position.How is it aritifical? SL was created by locals via local indigienous political processes, it wasn't created by shaking hands with Hillary Clinton. Yes even SL was meddled but the West largely forgot about us which was actually in our favor.
Goes to show you know very little about a country you obviously hate. Not surprised.
Somalia did but their civil war was being heavily meddled by the Western powers primarily US/CIA using money & weapons to influence political outcomes in their favour.
Here's an excerpt from an interview with President Cigaal back in 1999 about these Westerners and their meddling:
The following interview was given to journalists in Hargeisa by Mohamed Egal, who was elected President of Somaliland at the Boroma conference in 1993 and reelected in 1997. Somaliland declared independence in May 1991, but has received no formal international recognition. The interview took place at the presidential office of state in Hargeisa, the capital of Somaliland.
Question: Somaliland is receiving quite a lot of money from the European Union to be implemented by Habitat. Can you say in concrete terms how this helps?
Answer: First of all let me tell you that Non-governmental Organisations (NGOs) and international agencies are the only international presence we have here in Somaliland. There was a time when there was an element of confrontation in our relationship. We have discovered that was not to our advantage since they are the only presence we have from the international community. We now skirt around them very, very gingerly.
Question: What does it mean for the people of Somaliland that the international community is specifically helping Somaliland?
Answer: Well I don't think there is any specific help, it is the first time we are receiving help through Habitat and the EU. But let me tell you something - I don't know whether it is the money given to unrecognised countries or whether it is a case for all Third World countries which crave aid from the advanced world, but it is given in a very peculiar way.
Nobody asks us what we need or how we want to be helped. For example, this particular project is very much appreciated, but we do not know anything about it. We were just told: "We are going to do something for you in Berbera, and come and have a look atit!" - that sort of thing. We have a saying - you can only quench your thirst by lifting the water with your own hands. Nobody can be helped by the whim of somebody outside, it must be with input from the people being helped. That's the only way.
We are very grateful for the crumbs we are given here, but it is not benefiting us - it is being imposed. For example, Berbera is my home town, so many of the opposition believe I am favouring it. They think I have influenced Habitat to help Berbera. That might have been the intention of Habitat for all I know! ... but the point is, we are very grateful for what we get. Heaven knows, we need help to rebuild this country. We have stabilised it, we have pacified it, we have disarmed all the tribal militiawithout any assistance from anybody. And you cannot build a country with empty hands. We have done a miracle.
How do you as a support of somaliland see it in 10-20 years and possibly more, a major player in the region or a desertland with wars still going on.
What are your opinions on the SSC situation and the fighting against your own people.
Would you choose ethiopia over somalia in foreign diplomacy. For example, if ethiopia were to annex gedo, would you support ethiopia or somalia as a somaliland supporter.
Also do you ever think that somaliland has a chance to reuinify with somalia, albeit a somalia thats not only pleases you but all isaaq people. Would you unify?
Garaad Awal
Former African
Ina Cigaal who is also the former PM of the Somali Republic and was the man who brought British Somaliland to unite with Italian Somalia was a very very intelligent man.
He was the father of SL, he built all our state institutions including the army and politically outmaneuvered all his political opponent in a Game of Thrones manner, & disarmed the clans of SL.He was our Lee Kuan Yew, it has been downhill ever since he passed away. He is the only SL president I truly respect, he clearly loved his people and wanted to build something for them using his intelligence.
If he was young and lead our nation for decades SL would be similar to many SE Asian & stable North African countries in terms of HDI. I am just waiting for another Ina Cigaal cause currently we only got clowns running the show in SL but these clowns are a lot better than the scum which is called the FGS & it’s paper regional states.
This is maybe one of the dumbest things i ever heard, "qabiil is not a political stance" it sure hell is, thats why we are in this mess in the first place, thats why we have entities like SL and PL thats why we had one qabiil dominated rebel groups in siad barres end times. Stop making it seem like qabiil is just some familytree type of thing, everyone knows it developed into a much stronger ideology whichs grips our choices as society to this day.
Even though my stance about SL is simple: it should never become an independent country, I still agree with all your takes about the fgs and I understand with how feeble the government is that it would be stupid not to push for independence, but logically speaking if SL would get its independence, wouldn't it pave the way for foreign entities to also turn SL in a puppet state like somalia
Garaad Awal
Former African
I think the direction depends on whether there is new political blood. The current crop of old politicians have no new ideas and are well connected with the powerful companies & businessmen that hold monopolies over the SL economy and cause corruption.
Biixi is the least corrupt compared to the other two candidates, 1 of whom is a puppet for extreme tribalists of his clan with no backbone (Cirro) and another is a bipolar madman who can never be given the top seat in the nation as that would be disastrous.
I would like the current mayor of Hargeisa to one day run for President. He’s young and has fresh ideas. He seems like he genuinely wants economic development and to properly manage the country’s resources responsibly
Only the state has a monopoly over violence. Non-state actors like the Dhulo militias must be defeated and disarmed.
There are no eternal friends in politics. Everybody follows what is in their own interests.
I would be indifferent, it doesn’t concern my nation.
Isaaqs will never unify with Somalia. That boat has sailed, most of SL’s population is under 30 while SL was founded by 33 years ago. SL is all they know and it will continue being the nation they support.
Obviously the govt in Xamar doesn’t want to accept reality because the corrupt scum make money off of claiming SL like our airspace or any international aid that was meant for us. The current crop of SL leadership since Cigaal has been Aid hungry just like the FGS
Here in your statement you are with state violence and forcing/subjugating the masses and ignoring their right of self-determination. How is SSC vs SL different than SNM vs MSB?
Garaad Awal
Former African
The current SL leadership and the previous one starting Cigaal have never had the intention of forcing Dhulos into SL. The Dhulos invited SL in the early 2000s to Lascaanood and have tried integrating their political elites within our political system, keeping Dhulo militias on payroll as part of the SL army, giving funding to Eastern Sool that is bigger than their population percentage & economic contribution to SL (many of the Eastern Isaaqs complained about this).
Again Ina Cigaal in 1999 stated the SL strategy with Eastern Sool,Eastern Sanaag & Borama/Dilla:
At first, people from the south - whatever they were doing to their own patch - they left us alone. But recently, over the last six or seven months, there has been a direct challenge, from what is known as Puntland, to the integrity and stability of Somaliland. We don't want to start doing what they do in the south and fight - we don't want that. We want to fight for the minds and the loyalty of people, not with a gun, but with principles.
Obviously this strategy had success untill the mutiny last year. The old core of SL's leadership was shocked by the mutiny and didn't adequately make a planned political & military response. Instead everything went to shit and many civilians (both Harti & Isaaq) died because of the incompetence of the govt. Currently the upper echelon are deciding what the next steps should be for Eastern Sool and it's seems clear they are only left with one choice, militarily regaining control of Eastern Sool without trying to win the minds of Eastern Sool residents.
As for comparing SL to the fascist MOD regime of Barre. There's a huge difference, Hargeisa administration has no goal of turning any non-Isaaqs into second or third class citizens. Most of the extreme political hatred was between the different Isaaq subclans ever since Cigaal's victory in creating the modern SL. These tensions is what preoccupies the SL political elites not subjugating non-Isaaqs which either way is pretty sad.
Thank you.
Do you realise this is the same rhetoric Siad Barre used to fight the SNM?
The SNM were a 'a non state militia' and threatened his monopoly of force and were sponsored by Ethiopia.
If you have to pay people to keep them on your side that must signal something for you. And from what I read they had a limited representation in the 2001 referendum and the DH say their territories have been neglected by the administration and they felt marginalized by the government, and their was an agreement for them to have their own administration/state within Somaliland but Muse backed out from it (something like that). I even saw in an article that since the past 30 years around 100 important people from DH was assassinated. So what have you expected from them but revolt? Which is exactly what SNM did, I don’t see how you won’t extend the same thing to them, both were fighting for their rights.
Why? Somalia doesn't benefit from losing nearly 30% of its territory.
Extreme cope. The UN's security council decides who becomes a country or not. Ethiopia recognizing you guys means jack and will not allow you to enjoy benefits of being a real country.
You better beg the UN for a seat or else daddy FGS and Puntland will invade SL and finally put down down insubordinate wretches like you.
