Were the Fakr al Din and Muzaffar dynasties Somali or Arab/Persian

[Grant]

I never said the dinasty was samaale. Bro, you are knowledgeable but you miss many points because you have an agenda. I simply said that the Sultan who met ibn battuta was a non-arab somali. This doesn't disprove rer faqi's aeab ancestry, muslim dinasty were open to rulers from different backgrounds. Even today Reer Faqi are heavily somalized fo the point that many benadiris look almost 100% somali . How can an arab dinasty be assimilated by a nomadic population? It's pretty obvious that somalis came in contact with arab settelers and ruled with them as muslims.

My apologies. Facts makes me gun-shy by past bad experience..

However, a dynasty is assumed to be descended from a single individual, which you admit was an Arab. A non-Arab Somali, by Samaale definition, would not cut it, but a Somalized Arab would.

 

[Factz]

I am glad to see a more rational voice here on the forum. Hyper patriots like Facts would have Samaales sailing ships and establishing a colony in Sofala centuries before the clans even formed. Claiming commercial empires in the Indian ocean while your ports are being blockaded and all you can put to sea are rudderless inshore boats is just silly.

The first mention of a Somali ethnicity is only 15th century. Few Somali abtirses are even a thousand years old. Per 23andme I am as b1b1b as you are, but my ancestors left Africa 20,000 years ago. V32 comes from the Sudan. T1a is also not native. On the basis of linguistics, Christopher Ehret places both Maay and Maxaa Somalis and camels in the Afgoi area only in the 5th century AD. So don't get any ideas of ancient Samaale habitation in the Horn.

My book collection relates mostly to the South. I know little about the North and stay generally out of those discussions. I try to go where the evidence leads, and I repeat my questions to you. If Fakhr al-Din was a Somali, what clan was he and where are his descendants?
My inclination is to believe the Reer Faqi , who were there at the beginning and claimed for centuries prerogatives based on their initial decision and support.

I do not believe Ibn Batutta's rendition of what he saw. The court titles and ritual are NOT Somali. Whichever it is, I also doubt the Berbera, Barbara thing. There is another story that says he was one of four brothers who came from the Hejaz.

Grant, your intellectual dishonesty and your historical fabrication shows each day. According to linguistics the Somali language is over 3 thousand years old so yes, they are an ancient people. Adopting prophet Muhammed lineages doesn't take away the fact that they are an ancient stock that inhabited Somalia for thousands of years. Just because the first Somali record was in the 15th century doesn't mean they began in the 15th century. There are Somali clans mentioned way before that and history shows ethnicities evolve. Proto-Somalis have existed and they developed their own culture, trading networks, trading boats, far distance communications, sophisticated calendar, sophisticated pottery, social stratification, large populations, cities, and complex social formations such as chiefdoms. I even showed you a book about it but as usual you wouldn't read anything positive about Somali history.

Imagine coming for me when you believe Bantus are native to Somalia when they came as slaves. Imagine believing Arab and Persian immigrants founded these coastal cities when they dated back in the 1st century founded by proto-Somalis. These "immigrants" simply came a thousand year later and settled as traders/refugees and remained politically and numerically inferior. Most of these "immigrants" arrived in the Ajuran period. You claim Somalis developed no boats when there are accounts of Somali merchants sailing in Cairo, Damascus, Mocha, Mombasa, Aden, Madagascar, Hyderabad and the islands of the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, establishing Somali communities along the way. These travels produced several important individuals such as the Muslim scholars Uthman bin Ali Zayla'i in Egypt, Abd al-Aziz of Mogadishu in the Maldives, as well as the explorer Sa'id of Mogadishu, the latter of whom traveled across the Muslim world and visited China and India in the 14th century. All your claims and beliefs are outrages and not academically supported. You have 0 knowledge in the south. You once claimed Zeila and Berbera were Arab cities until I debunked you and now you don't run around with those fallacious claims anymore. You are simply a racist that believes Somalis have no history and you call me a hyper patriot for believing in ancient & medieval records and modern authentic historians?

Of course, you disagree with Ibn Battuta records because he goes against your narrative, however, difference between him and you is he actually went there at that time and he wrote his experiences. He denied the Benadir coast being Arabic and Persian enclaves and considered them largely black African towns that spoke in their native tongue. The Sultan of Mogadishu told Ibn Battuta he originated from Berbera so you cannot dispute that and him originating from Berbera could suggest his abitirsi goes back to Balad. If he was an Arab Ibn Batutta wouldn't call him black and wouldn't mention his native tongue. I can't believe we're even arguing about this when Ibn Battuta was so clear? Even a fool knows it's not rocket science. Why do you think every historian that talks about Ibn Battuta doesn't dispute with his records? What you need to do is stop being a racist revisionist and accept historical facts. Next time don't be afraid to @ me and I will happily embarrass you like the past.

 

[Som]

My apologies. Facts makes me gun-shy by past bad experience..

However, a dynasty is assumed to be descended from a single individual, which you admit was an Arab. A non-Arab Somali, by Samaale definition, would not cut it, but a Somalized Arab would.

Yes I recognize that most sources indicate that the dinasty had arab origins, but does it mean all rulers were arab? According to traditional accounts i descend from arabs since I'm darod, but it doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Som]

Grant, your intellectual dishonesty and your historical fabrication shows each day. According to linguistics the Somali language is over 3 thousand years old so yes, they are an ancient people. Adopting prophet Muhammed lineages doesn't take away the fact that they are an ancient stock that inhabited Somalia for thousands of years. Just because the first Somali record was in the 15th century doesn't mean they began in the 15th century. There are Somali clans mentioned way before that and history shows ethnicities evolve. Proto-Somalis have existed and they developed their own culture, trading networks, trading boats, far distance communications, sophisticated calendar, sophisticated pottery, social stratification, large populations, cities, and complex social formations such as chiefdoms. I even showed you a book about it but as usual you wouldn't read anything positive about Somali history.

Imagine coming for me when you believe Bantus are native to Somalia when they came as slaves. Imagine believing Arab and Persian immigrants founded these coastal cities when they dated back in the 1st century founded by proto-Somalis. These "immigrants" simply came a thousand year later and settled as traders/refugees and remained politically and numerically inferior. Most of these "immigrants" arrived in the Ajuran period. You claim Somalis developed no boats when there are accounts of Somali merchants sailing in Cairo, Damascus, Mocha, Mombasa, Aden, Madagascar, Hyderabad and the islands of the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, establishing Somali communities along the way. These travels produced several important individuals such as the Muslim scholars Uthman bin Ali Zayla'i in Egypt, Abd al-Aziz of Mogadishu in the Maldives, as well as the explorer Sa'id of Mogadishu, the latter of whom traveled across the Muslim world and visited China and India in the 14th century. All your claims and beliefs are outrages and not academically supported. You have 0 knowledge in the south. You once claimed Zeila and Berbera were Arab cities until I debunked you and now you don't run around with those fallacious claims anymore. You are simply a racist that believes Somalis have no history and you call me a hyper patriot for believing in ancient & medieval records and modern authentic historians?

Of course, you disagree with Ibn Battuta records because he goes against your narrative, however, difference between him and you is he actually went there at that time and he wrote his experiences. He denied the Benadir coast being Arabic and Persian enclaves and considered them largely black African towns that spoke in their native tongue. The Sultan of Mogadishu told Ibn Battuta he originated from Berbera so you cannot dispute that and him originating from Berbera could suggest his abitirsi goes back to Balad. If he was an Arab Ibn Batutta wouldn't call him black and wouldn't mention his native tongue. I can't believe we're even arguing about this when Ibn Battuta was so clear? Even a fool knows it's not rocket science. Why do you think every historian that talks about Ibn Battuta doesn't dispute with his records? What you need to do is stop being a racist revisionist and accept historical facts. Next time don't be afraid to @ me and I will happily embarrass you like the past.

Correct. But if I'm not mistaken ibn battuta didn't say the sultan was from berbera but said he was from the people of al barbar which was the term used flf ethnic somalis

 

[Som]

My apologies. Facts makes me gun-shy by past bad experience..

However, a dynasty is assumed to be descended from a single individual, which you admit was an Arab. A non-Arab Somali, by Samaale definition, would not cut it, but a Somalized Arab would.

Anyways many my best guess is that the dinasty had both somali and arab elements, everything leads to that. You can't dismiss ancient sources like ibn battuta just because you dislike what he said. The dude was there and he described what he saw.

 

[Diaspora ambassador]

I am glad to see a more rational voice here on the forum. Hyper patriots like Facts would have Samaales sailing ships and establishing a colony in Sofala centuries before the clans even formed. Claiming commercial empires in the Indian ocean while your ports are being blockaded and all you can put to sea are rudderless inshore boats is just silly.

The first mention of a Somali ethnicity is only 15th century. Few Somali abtirses are even a thousand years old. Per 23andme I am as b1b1b as you are, but my ancestors left Africa 20,000 years ago. V32 comes from the Sudan. T1a is also not native. On the basis of linguistics, Christopher Ehret places both Maay and Maxaa Somalis and camels in the Afgoi area only in the 5th century AD. So don't get any ideas of ancient Samaale habitation in the Horn.

My book collection relates mostly to the South. I know little about the North and stay generally out of those discussions. I try to go where the evidence leads, and I repeat my questions to you. If Fakhr al-Din was a Somali, what clan was he and where are his descendants?
My inclination is to believe the Reer Faqi , who were there at the beginning and claimed for centuries prerogatives based on their initial decision and support.

I do not believe Ibn Batutta's rendition of what he saw. The court titles and ritual are NOT Somali. Whichever it is, I also doubt the Berbera, Barbara thing. There is another story that says he was one of four brothers who came from the Hejaz.

Did you know that somalis have had many names.

It is not like somalis came along with the name in to existence.

You are either for your history or against it. Be very clear about it. And if you are against it please be so kind to stop misinforming people on this forum.

It is not only wrong but also coon behaviour. Yes somalis are hella old. Yes we have had ancient civilisations. Yes we had an trade empire before the modern tribes.

It doesn't mean that the old tribes never existed. The tribes of now are branches of older tribes that are per severed by the reer miyo. Thank god i have family in the miyo who educated me whilst i visited them.

Thanks no thanks for your propaganda

 

[Factz]

Correct. But if I'm not mistaken ibn battuta didn't say the sultan was from berbera but said he was from the people of al barbar which was the term used flf ethnic somalis

No, that was different. You're talking about when Ibn Battuta called him dark skin Berber that spoke in his native tongue but knew some Arabic. From there he distinguished his ethnicity with Arab so the notion that he is an Arab was already debunked.

He said he originated from the north, Berbera as he was told by him further dismissing any claims he had an Arab origin. Plus, Ibn Battuta visited Berbera before so he knew what he was talking about.

But indeed Somali tribes have been claiming the Arab origin since a millennium ago doesn't mean it's true. All Somali Islamic civilizations had dynasties that claimed prophet Muhammed lineages so why should we exclude Mogadishu? Ibn Sa'id and Ibn Battuta accounts proved Mogadishu demographics were predominantly Somali.

 

[Som]

No, that was different. You're talking about when Ibn Battuta called him dark skin Berber that spoke in his native tongue but knew some Arabic. From there he distinguished his ethnicity with Arab so the notion that he is an Arab was already debunked.

He said he originated from the north, Berbera as he was told by him further dismissing any claims he had an Arab origin. Plus, Ibn Battuta visited Berbera before so he knew what he was talking about.

But indeed Somali tribes have been claiming the Arab origin since a millennium ago doesn't mean it's true. All Somali Islamic civilizations had dynasties that claimed prophet Muhammed lineages so why should we exclude Mogadishu? Ibn Sa'id and Ibn Battuta accounts proved Mogadishu demographics were predominantly Somali.

Thanks for the clarification.
By the way i consider benadiris to be somali, most of them are predominantly somali and many of them look on the lighter skin end of average somalis. Even if the dinasty was actually started by a bunch of arabs it doesn't mean much. Arabs were small communities of immigrants, another important thing is that yhey were assimilated. As i said before it's kinda strange for a powerful foreign dinasty to be completely assimilated by a nomadic culture. The fact that benadiris were assimilated shows that the arab-somali relationship egualitarian and at some point somalis became socially more important than arabs or mixed somali/arabs. Even today our benadiri minority is unfortunately (i hate qabilism and rscism against minorty somalis) considered part of beesha shanaad and grouped with low caste tribes, this is very rare. in most african and south asian societies arabs or people with partial arab descent enjoy a very high social status cause arabs were conquerors. Arabs in somalia on the other hand didn't conquer anything and are considered important only because of islam .
In Indonesia, pakistan ecc people of arab descent are highly respected, in countries lile tanzania arabs and afro-arabs were basically behaving like white people towards african americans in the US. This never happened in somalia

 

[Factz]

Thanks for the clarification.
By the way i consider benadiris to be somali, most of them are predominantly somali and many of them look on the lighter skin end of average somalis. Even if the dinasty was actually started by a bunch of arabs it doesn't mean much. Arabs were small communities of immigrants, another important thing is that yhey were assimilated. As i said before it's kinda strange for a powerful foreign dinasty to be completely assimilated by a nomadic culture. The fact that benadiris were assimilated shows that the arab-somali relationship egualitarian and at some point somalis became socially more important than arabs or mixed somali/arabs. Even today our benadiri minority is unfortunately (i hate qabilism and rscism against minorty somalis) considered part of beesha shanaad and grouped with low caste tribes, this is very rare. in most african and south asian societies arabs or people with partial arab descent enjoy a very high social status cause arabs were conquerors. Arabs in somalia on the other hand didn't conquer anything and are considered important only because of islam .
In Indonesia, pakistan ecc people of arab descent are highly respected, in countries lile tanzania arabs and afro-arabs were basically behaving like white people towards african americans in the US. This never happened in somalia

It is well known in sociolinguistics literature that groups change their language when the adopted language is perceived as higher-status and/or grants entrance to a socio-cultural and economic sphere, to gain access to things previously not held, which proves Somalis dominant position.

Also, the non-existent intra-linguistic diversity within these minority groups; their use of Somali language and culture in the contemporary, tell us their lower position in terms of historical power dynamics – unlike the real dominant minorities that shaped Turks and Habesha's, there's no characteristic of the sort in this case.

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[Som]

It is well known in sociolinguistics literature that groups change their language when the adopted language is perceived as higher-status and/or grants entrance to a socio-cultural and economic sphere, to gain access to things previously not held, which proves Somalis dominant position.

Also, the non-existent intra-linguistic diversity within these minority groups; their use of Somali language and culture in the contemporary, tell us their lower position in terms of historical power dynamics – unlike the real dominant minorities that shaped Turks and Habesha's, there's no characteristic of the sort in this case.

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Exactly. Most benadiris speak af somali at home and don't speak arabic as a native language.
The case with habesha switching to a semitic language is more ancient but they also have something similar. Some Arabs setteled in Ethiopia, especially Harar but were completely assimilated by locals hararis and Somalis.

 

[Factz]

Exactly. Most benadiris speak af somali at home and don't speak arabic as a native language.
The case with habesha switching to a semitic language is more ancient but they also have something similar. Some Arabs setteled in Ethiopia, especially Harar but were completely assimilated by locals hararis and Somalis.

When the ancient southern Arabians established settlements in the Ethiopian highlands. They were able to culturally and linguistically influence the region to the point where the natives adopted their costumes because they were powerless. The same thing happened in Anatolia when the Turks migrated to that region the natives such as Albanians, Armenians, Assyrians, Circassians, Greeks, Jews, Romani, Slavs, Kurds living in Anatolia, as well as Lazs from all the regions of the Ottoman Empire were Turkified because they outpowered by the Turks but it wasn't the case in the Benadir coast because Somalis managed to remain politically and numerically stronger which is why the Arabs, Persian and Indians immigrants living on the coast were Somalinized. They knew to gain respect and access to some privilege's was to adopt our language and culture. This again proves the dominant position Somalis held. All these medieval records I showed you were an accurate description.

 

[Grant]

No, that was different. You're talking about when Ibn Battuta called him dark skin Berber that spoke in his native tongue but knew some Arabic. From there he distinguished his ethnicity with Arab so the notion that he is an Arab was already debunked.

He said he originated from the north, Berbera as he was told by him further dismissing any claims he had an Arab origin. Plus, Ibn Battuta visited Berbera before so he knew what he was talking about.

But indeed Somali tribes have been claiming the Arab origin since a millennium ago doesn't mean it's true. All Somali Islamic civilizations had dynasties that claimed prophet Muhammed lineages so why should we exclude Mogadishu? Ibn Sa'id and Ibn Battuta accounts proved Mogadishu demographics were predominantly Somali.

Here's the translation for " Ibn Batutta in Mogadishu." Where does it say the sultan said he was from Berbera? Ibn Batutta says he was a Berber (huwa fi'l-asl min al-Barbara), but who told Batutta this?

Sign in - Google Accounts

Notice the Arab court titles and ritual. The inhabitants of Berbera are "Negro" not Berbers or Barbara. The Qadi is an Egyptian, (!!!!!!) " they observed the same customs as are followed in the Yemen. " Anything Samaale here?

-----------------------------------------------

"Imagine coming for me when you believe Bantus are native to Somalia when they came as slaves."
Ken Menkhaus

Bantu ethnic identities in Somalia - Persée

{Tanzania}.

Virginia Luling, Somali Sultanate, pp 114-136

The Goobweyn, Shabelli, Makanne, Shiidle, Baxaar and others were part of the Bantu Expansion that preceeded the Samaales and were never enslaved. Most became "clients" of noble Samaale clans and they did lose their Bantu language.
Chattel Bantu slavery only begins with the Omanis in 1800. Previous Somali slaves were Boran and Arsi.

------------------------------------------------------------

" You claim Somalis developed no boats when there are accounts of Somali merchants sailing in Cairo, Damascus, Mocha, Mombasa, Aden, Madagascar, Hyderabad and the islands of the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, establishing Somali communities along the way. "

Please find such an account where a Somali owned the ship. Som made it clear in the Somali trading thread that Majertain merchants traded with Aden in the late 1830s, becoming noticeable by 1843 and significant by the 1880s. One wealthy trader owned his own ship by the 1840s and got permission from Zanzibari Sultan Bargash to trade Shabelli grain from Munghia, but was prevented by Yusuf of Geledi who wanted the port for himself. This resulted in the Hartis settling Kismayu and developing a trade there. This is the earliest Samaale ship ownership I am aware of.

The best the Mogadishu merchants had to send with Mir Ali Bey in 1581 were sambucs or pangaios, small rudderless boats capable only of inshore traffic. They were next to useless and were not used in the last expedition, which was to Mombassa.

Please tell me where there was a shipyard in Somalia, ever.

------------------------------------------------

The Romans, Indians, Egyptians, Aksumites, Chinese, Himyarites, Omanis and others all traded with Somalia. The Shirazis had ships and sailed lots of places, including Kilwa and Sofala. Samaalis may have been passengers on any of these. BUT: Are you supposing the Somali ambassador to China and all the scholars were Samaale and on their own ships?

Find accounts to prove it!

no Wiki, Baadiyow, Dumper/Stanley, or Njoku. The accounts have to be legitimate, preferably primary.

 

[Factz]

Here's the translation for " Ibn Batutta in Mogadishu." Where does it say the sultan said he was from Berbera? Ibn Batutta says he was a Berber (huwa fi'l-asl min al-Barbara), but who told Batutta this?

Sign in - Google Accounts

Notice the Arab court titles and ritual. The inhabitants of Berbera are "Negro" not Berbers or Barbara. The Qadi is an Egyptian, (!!!!!!) " they observed the same customs as are followed in the Yemen. " Anything Samaale here?

-----------------------------------------------

"Imagine coming for me when you believe Bantus are native to Somalia when they came as slaves."
Ken Menkhaus

Bantu ethnic identities in Somalia - Persée

View attachment 143029
{Tanzania}.

Virginia Luling, Somali Sultanate, pp 114-136

The Goobweyn, Shabelli, Makanne, Shiidle, Baxaar and others were part of the Bantu Expansion that preceeded the Samaales and were never enslaved. Most became "clients" of noble Samaale clans and they did lose their Bantu language.
Chattel Bantu slavery only begins with the Omanis in 1800. Previous Somali slaves were Boran and Arsi.

------------------------------------------------------------

" You claim Somalis developed no boats when there are accounts of Somali merchants sailing in Cairo, Damascus, Mocha, Mombasa, Aden, Madagascar, Hyderabad and the islands of the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, establishing Somali communities along the way. "

Please find such an account where a Somali owned the ship. Som made it clear in the Somali trading thread that Majertain merchants traded with Aden in the late 1830s, becoming noticeable by 1843 and significant by the 1880s. One wealthy trader owned his own ship by the 1840s and got permission from Zanzibari Sultan Bargash to trade Shabelli grain from Munghia, but was prevented by Yusuf of Geledi who wanted the port for himself. This resulted in the Hartis settling Kismayu and developing a trade there. This is the earliest Samaale ship ownership I am aware of.

The best the Mogadishu merchants had to send with Mir Ali Bey in 1581 were sambucs or pangaios, small rudderless boats capable only of inshore traffic. They were next to useless and were not used in the last expedition, which was to Mombassa.

Please tell me where there was a shipyard in Somalia, ever.

------------------------------------------------

The Romans, Indians, Egyptians, Aksumites, Chinese, Himyarites, Omanis and others all traded with Somalia. The Shirazis had ships and sailed lots of places, including Kilwa and Sofala. Samaalis may have been passengers on any of these. BUT: Are you supposing the Somali ambassador to China and all the scholars were Samaale and on their own ships?

Find accounts to prove it!

no Wiki, Baadiyow, Dumper/Stanley, or Njoku. The accounts have to be legitimate, preferably primary.

You're being so intellectually dishonest and predictable again. "Negro" means black in Spanish and Ibn Battuta referred Mogadishu, Merka, Barawa and Zeila as black African towns.

Somalis have historically been referred by Arab geographers as Bilad Al-Berber/Barbara distinguishing Al-Zanj of Swahili coast in the south and Al-Habesha of Ethiopian highlands in the north.

In fact, Ibn Sa'id who visited Berbera a century before Ibn Battuta claimed Berbera was the capital of Berbers so you can give up your weak attempts.

Ibn Sa'id for, for instance, considered Merca to be the capital of the Hawiye. In the same century, Yaqut another Arab Geographer mentioned Merca belonging to the "black Berbers". As you can see Somalis have historically been referred by Arabs as Berbers so don't you dare insult my intelligence and think you can lie to my face.

Here is Ibn Sa'id description on the Benadir coast. He described merchants as immigrants but the local people (natives) were predominantly Somali.

The next century Ibn Batutta reiterates Ibn Sa'id records. His accounts describes the Benadir coast were African towns inhabited largely by African descent. He goes on further and says the rulers, scholars, officials, big merchants as well as port workers, farmers, craftsmen's and slaves were dark skinned people speaking African tongues in everyday life further dismissing your claims of the Benadir coast having any alien isolated Arab and Persian enclaves.

Now since I proved to you Somalis were considered Berbers by Arab geographers. Now you can see Ibn Battuta mentioned his ethnicity as Berber debunking your theory that he was an Arab. He went on further saying he was dark skinned and spoke in his native tongue but knew some Arabic so not only he proved he was not an ethnic Arab but distinguished his language from being Arabic.

Sorry Grant, Ibn Sa'id and Ibn Battuta records don't support your narrative as they were there at that time writing down their experiences. Your only argument was because Mogadishu Sultanate followed an Arab court system which I'm sorry to tell you is a very weak argument because there are non-Arabs that followed Arab court system throughout the Islamic history. What matters is Ibn Battuta descriptions already talked about the demographics of Benadir and the Sultan being Berber which Arab geographers used to refer to Somalis in the medieval times. You can't pick and choose Ibn Battuta descriptions when it's convenient to you. It shows your intellectual dishonesty. You have to accept everything he wrote.

 

[Factz]

Here's the translation for " Ibn Batutta in Mogadishu." Where does it say the sultan said he was from Berbera? Ibn Batutta says he was a Berber (huwa fi'l-asl min al-Barbara), but who told Batutta this?

Sign in - Google Accounts

Notice the Arab court titles and ritual. The inhabitants of Berbera are "Negro" not Berbers or Barbara. The Qadi is an Egyptian, (!!!!!!) " they observed the same customs as are followed in the Yemen. " Anything Samaale here?

-----------------------------------------------

"Imagine coming for me when you believe Bantus are native to Somalia when they came as slaves."
Ken Menkhaus

Bantu ethnic identities in Somalia - Persée

View attachment 143029
{Tanzania}.

Virginia Luling, Somali Sultanate, pp 114-136

The Goobweyn, Shabelli, Makanne, Shiidle, Baxaar and others were part of the Bantu Expansion that preceeded the Samaales and were never enslaved. Most became "clients" of noble Samaale clans and they did lose their Bantu language.
Chattel Bantu slavery only begins with the Omanis in 1800. Previous Somali slaves were Boran and Arsi.

------------------------------------------------------------

" You claim Somalis developed no boats when there are accounts of Somali merchants sailing in Cairo, Damascus, Mocha, Mombasa, Aden, Madagascar, Hyderabad and the islands of the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea, establishing Somali communities along the way. "

Please find such an account where a Somali owned the ship. Som made it clear in the Somali trading thread that Majertain merchants traded with Aden in the late 1830s, becoming noticeable by 1843 and significant by the 1880s. One wealthy trader owned his own ship by the 1840s and got permission from Zanzibari Sultan Bargash to trade Shabelli grain from Munghia, but was prevented by Yusuf of Geledi who wanted the port for himself. This resulted in the Hartis settling Kismayu and developing a trade there. This is the earliest Samaale ship ownership I am aware of.

The best the Mogadishu merchants had to send with Mir Ali Bey in 1581 were sambucs or pangaios, small rudderless boats capable only of inshore traffic. They were next to useless and were not used in the last expedition, which was to Mombassa.

Please tell me where there was a shipyard in Somalia, ever.

------------------------------------------------

The Romans, Indians, Egyptians, Aksumites, Chinese, Himyarites, Omanis and others all traded with Somalia. The Shirazis had ships and sailed lots of places, including Kilwa and Sofala. Samaalis may have been passengers on any of these. BUT: Are you supposing the Somali ambassador to China and all the scholars were Samaale and on their own ships?

Find accounts to prove it!

no Wiki, Baadiyow, Dumper/Stanley, or Njoku. The accounts have to be legitimate, preferably primary.

Grant, Bantu expansion didn't past the Tana river so how come there are no Bantus living in NFD? Don't be foolish. The majority of them came through slave trade between the 18th and 19th century. During Ajuran period the western neighbours were Gallas (Oromos). There are no documents of Bantus having their own lands or being their neighbours. You're making up bogus claims as usual. Your source is rubbish and conflating. 1. Aboriginals (Khoisans) are not Bantus. 2. Somalis are Cushitic people native to the Horn of Africa and Bantus cannot predate them in their homeland. 3. I'm about about to prove number 2.

Bantus migrated into west Kenya in the 8th century AD.

Tunni clan occupied Lower Shabelle valley in 2000 B.C.E

Tunni and Garre clan occupied Jubba valley in 1000 B.C.E

Abdi a respected member from the Bantu community and who's a scholar had this to say.

Somalis have been ship building since the antiquity. Ancient Somalis locally built their own ships called Beden.

The Beden ship was able to travel across the red sea and Gulf of Aden.

Somalis participated in the Battle of Mombasa using their own ships.

Book :
Portuguese rule and Spanish crown in South Africa, 1581-1640

Sidney R. Welch
Juta, 1950 - 634

As you can see, the mention of the Ajuran helping out Arabs is there on page 25. "Somali rulers of Mogadishu who sympathized with the beaten Arabs, -sent aid and help, - joined by boats manned by Somali sailors"

Is this clear enough for you or do I need to put it in a blender and force it down your throat?

The fact is in the medieval times there were Somali communities all over the Indian ocean where they sailed themselves. They came as merchants to trade or to spread Islam or study and learn new knowledge. Somalis have a rich maritime history and seafaring culture. Somali ports are filled with history. Those are the facts you need to know.

 

[Puntlandtheglorious]

Grant, Bantu expansion didn't past the Tana river so how come there are no Bantus living in NFD? Don't be foolish. The majority of them came through slave trade between the 18th and 19th century. During Ajuran period the western neighbours were Gallas (Oromos). There are no documents of Bantus having their own lands or being their neighbours. You're making up bogus claims as usual. Your source is rubbish and conflating. 1. Aboriginals (Khoisans) are not Bantus. 2. Somalis are Cushitic people native to the Horn of Africa and Bantus cannot predate them in their homeland. 3. I'm about about to prove number 2.

Bantus migrated into west Kenya in the 8th century AD.

View attachment 143153

Tunni clan occupied Lower Shabelle valley in 2000 B.C.E

View attachment 143154

Tunni and Garre clan occupied Jubba valley in 1000 B.C.E

View attachment 143155

Abdi a respected member from the Bantu community and who's a scholar had this to say.

View attachment 143156

Somalis have been ship building since the antiquity. Ancient Somalis locally built their own ships called Beden.

View attachment 143157

The Beden ship was able to travel across the red sea and Gulf of Aden.

View attachment 143158
View attachment 143159

Somalis participated in the Battle of Mombasa using their own ships.

View attachment 143160
View attachment 143162

Book :
Portuguese rule and Spanish crown in South Africa, 1581-1640

View attachment 143161
Sidney R. Welch
Juta, 1950 - 634

As you can see, the mention of the Ajuran helping out Arabs is there on page 25. "Somali rulers of Mogadishu who sympathized with the beaten Arabs, -sent aid and help, - joined by boats manned by Somali sailors"

Is this clear enough for you or do I need to put it in a blender and force it down your throat?

The fact is in medieval times there were Somali communities all over the Indian ocean where they sailed themselves. They came as merchants to trade or to spread Islam or study and learn new knowledge.

This guy Grant hates somalis he denies everything

 

[Mckenzie]

Sailors in Xamar 1860

Sailors in Berbera fighting a blockade 1825

 

[Grant]

You're being so intellectually dishonest and predictable again. "Negro" means black in Spanish and Ibn Battuta referred Mogadishu, Merka, Barawa and Zeila as black African towns.

Somalis have historically been referred by Arab geographers as Bilad Al-Berber/Barbara distinguishing Al-Zanj of Swahili coast in the south and Al-Habesha of Ethiopian highlands in the north.

View attachment 143086
In fact, Ibn Sa'id who visited Berbera a century before Ibn Battuta claimed Berbera was the capital of Berbers so you can give up your weak attempts.

View attachment 143115

Ibn Sa'id for, for instance, considered Merca to be the capital of the Hawiye. In the same century, Yaqut another Arab Geographer mentioned Merca belonging to the "black Berbers". As you can see Somalis have historically been referred by Arabs as Berbers so don't you dare insult my intelligence and think you can lie to my face.

View attachment 143105

Here is Ibn Sa'id description on the Benadir coast. He described merchants as immigrants but the local people (natives) were predominantly Somali.

View attachment 143113

The next century Ibn Batutta reiterates Ibn Sa'id records. His accounts describes the Benadir coast were African towns inhabited largely by African descent. He goes on further and says the rulers, scholars, officials, big merchants as well as port workers, farmers, craftsmen's and slaves were dark skinned people speaking African tongues in everyday life further dismissing your claims of the Benadir coast having any alien isolated Arab and Persian enclaves.

View attachment 143116

Now since I proved to you Somalis were considered Berbers by Arab geographers. Now you can see Ibn Battuta mentioned his ethnicity as Berber debunking your theory that he was an Arab. He went on further saying he was dark skinned and spoke in his native tongue but knew some Arabic so not only he proved he was not an ethnic Arab but distinguished his language from being Arabic.

View attachment 143118

Sorry Grant, Ibn Sa'id and Ibn Battuta records don't support your narrative as they were there at that time writing down their experiences. Your only argument was because Mogadishu Sultanate followed an Arab court system which I'm sorry to tell you is a very weak argument because there are non-Arabs that followed Arab court system throughout the Islamic history. What matters is Ibn Battuta descriptions already talked about the demographics of Benadir and the Sultan being Berber which Arab geographers used to refer to Somalis in the medieval times. You can't pick and choose Ibn Battuta descriptions when it's convenient to you. It shows your intellectual dishonesty. You have to accept everything he wrote.

Grant, Bantu expansion didn't past the Tana river so how come there are no Bantus living in NFD? Don't be foolish. The majority of them came through slave trade between the 18th and 19th century. During Ajuran period the western neighbours were Gallas (Oromos). There are no documents of Bantus having their own lands or being their neighbours. You're making up bogus claims as usual. Your source is rubbish and conflating. 1. Aboriginals (Khoisans) are not Bantus. 2. Somalis are Cushitic people native to the Horn of Africa and Bantus cannot predate them in their homeland. 3. I'm about about to prove number 2.

Bantus migrated into west Kenya in the 8th century AD.

View attachment 143153

Tunni clan occupied Lower Shabelle valley in 2000 B.C.E

View attachment 143154

Tunni and Garre clan occupied Jubba valley in 1000 B.C.E

View attachment 143155

Abdi a respected member from the Bantu community and who's a scholar had this to say.

View attachment 143156

Somalis have been ship building since the antiquity. Ancient Somalis locally built their own ships called Beden.

View attachment 143157

The Beden ship was able to travel across the red sea and Gulf of Aden.

View attachment 143158
View attachment 143163

Somalis participated in the Battle of Mombasa using their own ships.

View attachment 143160
View attachment 143162

Book :
Portuguese rule and Spanish crown in South Africa, 1581-1640

View attachment 143161
Sidney R. Welch
Juta, 1950 - 634

As you can see, the mention of the Ajuran helping out Arabs is there on page 25. "Somali rulers of Mogadishu who sympathized with the beaten Arabs, -sent aid and help, - joined by boats manned by Somali sailors"

Is this clear enough for you or do I need to put it in a blender and force it down your throat?

The fact is in the medieval times there were Somali communities all over the Indian ocean where they sailed themselves. They came as merchants to trade or to spread Islam or study and learn new knowledge. Somalis have a rich maritime history and seafaring culture. Somali ports are filled with history. Those are the facts you need to know.

All you have proven is that you did not read Ibn Batutta, Menkhaus, Luling or Sydney Welch; that you still do not know how to footnote a source; and that you cannot identify a single Somali shipyard.
You are conflating the Mogadishu merchants with the Ajuraan, which the Portuguese did not know and are not mentioned by Welch. You still do not understand the difference between a pangaio and a ship:
Welch, p, 25
"The expedition was under the command of a skillful pirate, Mir Ali Bey, who had considerable experience in Mediterranean forays. Now he was joined by a number of small boats called pangaios, manned by Somali Sailors."
This was for the Lamu attack. There were no Somali ships mentioned for Mombassa. Look up pangaio. It is a small, rudderless boat only capable of inshore travel.

Did you miss Welch p. 75?

"The new captain of Malindi, Rui Lopes Salgado.....was authorized to use the tributes of Pemba, Brava and other islands of his jurisdiction to maintain trim and armed, a cruiser for patrolling the coast of Guardafui."

The Portuguese took Baraawa from the Tunni in 1507 and held it until the Omanis kicked them out in 1730 or as late as 1758, depending on author. This was over two hundred years, during which the Ajuraan were unable to take it back or drive the Portuguese out of their settlement at Bandel, 7 miles north of Mogadishu. By 1700 the Ajuraan were gone.

https://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/64205

" In 1730, the Omani, a small but capable and ambitious people, succeeded in hunting down and stopping the Portuguese from Cape Delgado to Cape Guardafui: since 1497 the Portuguese had suppressed the centuries-old Indian Ocean trade network in an attempt to enforce a monopoly."
-------------------------------------------

Now, go read a whole bunch more.

 

[Grant]

Sailors in Xamar 1860

View attachment 143173

Sailors in Berbera fighting a blockade 1825

View attachment 143174

Sources and explanations might be interesting. It is known a rich Harti merchant had a ship by 1840 that was used to settle Kismayu. But earlier????

 

[Factz]

All you have proven is that you did not read Ibn Batutta, Menkhaus, Luling or Sydney Welch; that you still do not know how to footnote a source; and that you cannot identify a single Somali shipyard.
You are conflating the Mogadishu merchants with the Ajuraan, which the Portuguese did not know and are not mentioned by Welch. You still do not understand the difference between a pangaio and a ship:
Welch, p, 25
"The expedition was under the command of a skillful pirate, Mir Ali Bey, who had considerable experience in Mediterranean forays. Now he was joined by a number of small boats called pangaios, manned by Somali Sailors."
This was for the Lamu attack. There were no Somali ships mentioned for Mombassa. Look up pangaio. It is a small, rudderless boat only capable of inshore travel.

Did you miss Welch p. 75?

"The new captain of Malindi, Rui Lopes Salgado.....was authorized to use the tributes of Pemba, Brava and other islands of his jurisdiction to maintain trim and armed, a cruiser for patrolling the coast of Guardafui."

The Portuguese took Baraawa from the Tunni in 1507 and held it until the Omanis kicked them out in 1730 or as late as 1758, depending on author. This was over two hundred years, during which the Ajuraan were unable to take it back or drive the Portuguese out of their settlement at Bandel, 7 miles north of Mogadishu. By 1700 the Ajuraan were gone.

https://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/64205

" In 1730, the Omani, a small but capable and ambitious people, succeeded in hunting down and stopping the Portuguese from Cape Delgado to Cape Guardafui: since 1497 the Portuguese had suppressed the centuries-old Indian Ocean trade network in an attempt to enforce a monopoly."
-------------------------------------------

Now, go read a whole bunch more.

I love how you didn't respond to most of my sources because you were completely disproven.

I showed you Ibn Battuta and Ibn Sa'id descriptions when they talked about the demographics of Benadir coast. They were very clear so now you have no excuse claiming they were Arab cities. Ibn Battuta said the ruler was dark skin Berber and I proved to you Berber was a term medieval Arabs use to describe Somalis. Why are you being so stubborn? If he was an Arab he would've said so but not talk about his skin tone, call him "berber" and mention his native language. It's freaking obvious he was Somali. Just give it up. It's why every historian that talks about Ibn Battuta mention the Mogadishu ruler as Somali because Ibn Battuta descriptions is very explicit.

Welch who you quote a lot even described Mogadishu rulers as "Somali" and said the ones who supported the Omanis in de-colonizing the Swahili coast were manned by "Somali" so where is your excuse now? You love pick and choosing when it's convenient for you but you love denying Mogadishu being ruled by Somalis (Ajuran) and you deny Somali naval capabilities even once claiming they weren't Somali. Look at you now all confused and embarrassed so you use low blows and make things up, it's absolutely pathetic. I even expected better from you.

I'm sorry the book doesn't only mention Lamu. It said "Mir Ali Bey, who had considerable experience in Mediterranean forays. Now he was joined by a small number of boats called Pangaios, manned by Somali sailors." Mir Ali Bey attacked every Swahili port and he was supported by the Somali navy so you can stop making shit up. Also, I proved to you proto-Somalis built their own local ships called Beden that navigated across the red sea to gulf of Aden to southeast Africa so you would assume Somali ship building capabilities would evolve in the medieval period.

This is why you have a Somali governor in the Maldives.

Aw Barkhaadle, a Somali saint from Zeila established the first Muslim settlement in Sri lanka called Beruwala. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beruwala

There is a Somali community in India that came as merchants from Somalia. Before you claim that I claim Sidi are Somalis. The source says "some Sidi have Somali origin" not denying some had Bantu origin too.

Before you claim all Sidi were slaves some came as merchants like the Somalis.

As you can see medieval Somalis even reached south Asia but that's nothing because there are accounts of Somalis reaching as far Southeast Asia and perhaps even traded with them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ajuran Sultanate strengthened its relations with the Ottoman Empire. Both established a military pact to collectively thwart the Portuguese threat in the Indian Indian. Somali and Turkish expedition went far as Southeast Asia.

I just want to correct you on a few things. Ajuran Sultanate ports like Merca, Barawa, Mareeg and maybe others had trading ships and navies not just Mogadishu. Mir Ali Ber was an Ottoman corsair and buccaneer. Go search that up before you try to lie. Mir Ali Bey was a prominent figure in the Ottoman history of expansion in the Indian Ocean.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sad reality of Ajuran history and why it is underrated.

Now, go read a whole bunch more.

 

[Grant]

I love how you didn't respond most of my sources because you were completely disproven.

I showed you Ibn Battuta and Ibn Sa'id descriptions when they talked about the demographics of Benadir coast. They were very clear so now you have no excuse claiming they were Arab cities. Ibn Battuta said the ruler was dark skin Berber and I proved to you Berber was a term medieval Arabs use to describe Somalis. Why are you being so stubborn? If he was an Arab he would've said so but not talk about his skin tone, call him "berber" and mention his native language. It's freaking obvious he was Somali. Just give it up. It's why every historian that talks about Ibn Battuta mention the Mogadishu ruler as Somali because Ibn Battuta descriptions is very explicit.

Welch who you quote a lot even described Mogadishu rulers as "Somali" and said the ones who supported the Omanis in de-colonizing the Swahili coast were manned by "Somali" so where is your excuse now? You love pick and choosing when it's convenient for you but you love denying Mogadishu being ruled by Somalis (Ajuran) and you deny Somali naval capabilities even once claiming they weren't Somali. Look at you now all confused and embarrassed so you use low blows and make things up, it's absolutely pathetic. I even expected better from you.

I'm sorry the book doesn't only mention Lamu. It said "Mir Ali Bey, who had considerable experience in Mediterranean forays. Now he was joined by a small number of boats called Pangaios, manned by Somali sailors." Mir Ali Bey attacked every Swahili port and he was supported by the Somali navy so you can stop making shit up. Also, I proved to you proto-Somalis built their own local ships called Beden that navigated across the red sea to gulf of Aden to southeast Africa so you would assume Somali ship building capabilities would evolve in the medieval period.

This is why you have a Somali governor in the Maldives.

View attachment 143223

Aw Barkhaadle, a Somali saint from Zeila established the first Muslim settlement in Sri lanka called Beruwala. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beruwala

There is a Somali community in India that came as merchants from Somalia. Before you claim that I claim Sidi are Somalis. The source says "some Sidi have Somali origin" not denying some had Bantu origin too.

View attachment 143227

Before you claim all Sidi were slaves some came as merchants like the Somalis.

View attachment 143230

As you can see medieval Somalis even reached south Asia but that's nothing because there are accounts Somali reaching as far Southeast Asia and perhaps even traded with them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ajuran Sultanate strengthened its relations with the Ottoman Empire. Both established a military pact to collectively thwart the Portuguese threat in the Indian Indian. Somali and Turkish expedition went far as Southeast Asia.

View attachment 143269

I just want to correct you on a few things. Ajuran Sultanate ports like Merca, Barawa, Mareeg and maybe others had trading ships and navies not just Mogadishu. Mir Ali Ber was an Ottoman corsair and buccaneer. Go search that up before you try to lie. Mir Ali Bey was a prominent figure in the Ottoman history of expansion in the Indian Ocean.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sad reality of Ajuran history and why it has not been promoted.

View attachment 143276

Now, go read a whole bunch more.

Total BS and misdirection. Everybody's information on Mir Ali Bey is from the Portuguese archives, which is Welch, and which you have clearly not read. The Turkish expedition is a fantasy from Baadiyow, where he confused Mir Ali in the 1580s with Suleiman the Magnificent in the 1560s. {https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_expedition_to_Aceh} Mir Ali made one trip to Muscat, one to Lamu and one to Mombassa, where he and all his ships and men were captured by the Portuguese. Mir Ali died a Catholic in Lisbon.

You can't find a single shipyard, let alone a navy. Your comments on Welch are just bizarre. The book only goes to 1640. The Somali ports were entrepots. They had pangaios (lighters), but not their own ships.

Go actually read Batutta, Welch, Menkhaus and Luling. It will give you a whole new vision of the reality of that period. What little you have now is just waaaaayyy off base.