"The Salman Rushdie" of Somalis

[Sakiin]

There's a difference between sharci law in an Islamic court and civi law. Scholars state that the xuduud implemention of law is at the discretion of the ruler. As long as he establishes the prayer and is not a gaal no one should overthrow him. Islam is very tolerant religion and does not want to force people to do things, Islam is easy but you so called salafists make it hard. Did you know Umar bin Khattab (RA) suspended xuduud punishment for theft due to economic hardship and drought? He said NO WERE NOT CUTTING HANDS, people are stealing cause they are poor, suspend it! This is ijtihaad and the aqli to use it.

People were hungry and he made that his jurisdiction but if you were to say that terror groups today funded by Saudi they would declare you a murtad and chop off your neck. This is the utter ignorance rampant upon our ummah that has caused a great deal of bloodshed and is a cancer worst than the plague

Saaxib there is a difference between ijtihaad and being lenient with the xuduud compared to downright denying the xuduud punishment and thinking it's archaic and should be discarded.

There are many cases in the times of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and the Sahaba where they tried to make excuses and be lenient in order to not implement the xuduud.

The severe punishment of the xuduud is more of a deterrent and shows the gravity of the sin to the Muslim community. For example, stoning the one who does Zina who was previously married...it requires 4 witnesses which is no easy feat.

Btw the scholars do not say the Muslim ruler who doesn't rule by the book of Allah is blanketly a Gaal. Some do it for desires. They know that Allah's law is better than secularism but they rule based on secularism in order to get power and other worldly benefit(many of the Muslim rulers fall under this category).

However, if a Muslim ruler says explicitly that he believes secularism is better or equal to the rule of Allah, or that the Law revealed to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is outdated then many scholars have stated that this person has committed major kufur.

So this isn't a matter to take lightly.

 

[Lum]

Salafi, Sufi, Suni, Shiah, shuun, really i dont care for all these labels. I am a muslim.

Amaantu bilaahi, waa malaaikatihi, Waa Ruusulihi, Waa Khutubihi, waal Yomul Akhiri......

How? We are both muslims yet we differ.

 

[TekNiKo]

Saaxib there is a difference between ijtihaad and being lenient with the xuduud compared to downright denying the xuduud punishment and thinking it's archaic and should be discarded.

There are many cases in the times of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم and the Sahaba where they tried to make excuses and be lenient in order to not implement the xuduud.

The severe punishment of the xuduud is more of a deterrent and shows the gravity of the sin to the Muslim community. For example, stoning the one who does Zina who was previously married...it requires 4 witnesses which is no easy feat.

Btw the scholars do not say the Muslim ruler who doesn't rule by the book of Allah is blanketly a Gaal. Some do it for desires. They know that Allah's law is better than secularism but they rule based on secularism in order to get power and other worldly benefit(many of the Muslim rulers fall under this category).

However, if a Muslim ruler says explicitly that he believes secularism is better or equal to the rule of Allah, or that the Law revealed to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم is outdated then many scholars have stated that this person has committed major kufur.

So this isn't a matter to take lightly.

I agree with your statements, secularism simply means dunya work like politics etc. To divorce the religion for politics is wrong, I think calmaniyah is different translation

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Allah SWT tells us in the Quran that whoever does not judge according to what He revealed is a kaafir, a zaalim (oppressor / wrongdoer) and a faasiq (sinner).

If that is the ruling for not abiding by Allah's commandment to judge according to His laws, what about advocating for a worldview that has it's objective to remove the right of Allah to rule in legislation, replace and grant it to man ?? How is it possible for individuals who espouse such beliefs to still remain within the fold of islam ?

If Islam didn't specify a political form of regime and people are free to choose the type of system they want, why does he then oppose those who want have a system of governance based on islam ? Isn't it hypocritical of him to deny others the choice that he himself is fighting for ?

Since people have the right to determine their preferred system, why should he be concerned with what they choose and most importantly what gives him the right to judge others who have views contrary to his ? unless we conform to what he believes to be the "right system" ie secularism we simply are misguided


Claiming that "islamists have distorted the image of secularism" is nothing but an attempt to fabricate history and ignores the oppression, injustice and atrocities carried out against muslims by secular dictators such as mustafa kemal, assad, saddam, and our very own siad barre. So no we do have valid reasons to be against secularism as a system of governance.

Waa cajib ruunti to see an individual claiming to know what's best for mankind more than the Rabb who created him, the universe and everything that exists within it. The level of kibr is simply astounding

May Allah protect us from the evil of the evildoers

Ameen thumma Ameen

 

[Lum]

I agree with your statements, secularism simply means dunya work like politics etc. To divorce the religion for politics is wrong, I think calmaniyah is different translation

Nope.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

there's no real political system that Islam forces you to adhere, Ottoman empire was secular for years, no one revolted against them heck Jews were allowed to be in the Suldaan's administration, kingdom, dictators, and caliphs all ruled and was prophesized by the Nabi SAW. Takfiris and wahabists are all fighting for political and spilling muslim blood.

watch the following video by hamza yusuf on the same issue of secularism. Compare the opinion that he had back then to his current view and ask yourself what caused the change ?

 

[AussieHustler]

The Sharia Law squad.

How will a Muslim country be ruled, via democracy or by a dictatorship?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

The Sharia Law squad.

How will a Muslim country be ruled, via democracy or by a dictatorship?

So without democracy there can be no freedom miya ? you know what i'm not surprised with that assumption of yours as it's indicative of a larger intolerant ideology based on the unquestioned superiority of western thought and universal applicability of it's values.

You are only tolerant of islam to the extent that it reflects the values that you subscribe too, which is why you pushed forth that false alternative of yours, as if those were the only two options that exist.It's also the reason why you are advocating for this guy.


Islam is a complete way of life and this is what we subscribe to and as one sister eloquently put it " we do not accept the idea that another ideology can enhance, refine, improve upon or replace islam".

 

[AussieHustler]

So without democracy there can be no freedom miya ? you know what i'm not surprised with that assumption of yours as it's indicative of a larger intolerant ideology based on the unquestioned superiority of western thought and universal applicability of it's values.

You are only tolerant of islam to the extent that it reflects the values that you subscribe too, which is why you pushed forth that false alternative of yours, as if those were the only two options that exist.It's also the reason why you are advocating for this guy.


Islam is a complete way of life and this is what we subscribe to and as one sister eloquently put it " we do not accept the idea that another ideology can enhance, refine, improve upon or replace islam".

@AdoonkaAlle

Sxb, since you knocked off democracy in your theocratic Islamic State, isn’t the sort of leadership you want similar to that of ISIS and Alshabaab? An un-elected Emir who if you don’t give allegiance to him will result in you being declared a “murtad” and beheaded? If it’s different, care to explain?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@AdoonkaAlle

Sxb, since you knocked off democracy in your theocratic Islamic State, isn’t the sort of leadership you want similar to that of ISIS and Alshabaab? An un-elected Emir who if you don’t give allegiance to him will result in you being declared a “murtad” and beheaded? If it’s different, care to explain?

Again with the false alternatives i wonder how long you're planning to continue with it ? do you get a kick out if mise ?? distorting islamic history and law to suit your agenda isn't going to take you far if anything it's a reflection of your character as a deceitful individual unwilling to concede anything beyond what you self identify to be the "truth". At the end of the day you're entitled to your opinions however false they are but you're not entitled to facts it's simple as that.

 

[AussieHustler]

Again with the false alternatives i wonder how long you're planning to continue with it ? do you get a kick out if mise ?? distorting islamic history and law to suit your agenda isn't going to take you far if anything it's a reflection of your character as a deceitful individual unwilling to concede anything beyond what you self identify to be the "truth". At the end of the day you're entitled to your opinions however false they are but you're not entitled to facts it's simple as that.

@AdoonkaAlle

Sxb, I just asked you a simple question and you answered with Taqiya somersaults and ad hominem. Let me ask you again.

If you ruled out democracy, what sort of a dictatorship will lead your “Islamic State”?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@AdoonkaAlle

Sxb, I just asked you a simple question and you answered with Taqiya somersaults and ad hominem. Let me ask you again.

If you ruled out democracy, what sort of a dictatorship will lead your “Islamic State”?

Let me break it down for you so as show you the level of intolerance that you're exhibiting. That intolerance of yours is what is hindering you from having an actual discussion with people who have opposing views.

Firstly you equating freedom to democracy is a false narrative as it implies that "freedom" can only be attained in a democracy but most importantly adherents of democracy and democratic states have engaged in the subjugation, killing and oppression of people that don't have the same world view as them.

In fact they continue to do so under the pretext of spreading "freedom and democracy" and when the masses engage in democratic elections and bring to power individuals that are not aligned with western imperial interests they undermine them and bring to power dictators.

Isn't it quite odd that purported democracy advocates see nothing wrong when democracy is undermined in such a violent and oppressive manner, they keep offering democracy as a means of escaping from the current situation, and then take it away once it doesn’t go the way they want it to.

Secondly what constitutes as "freedom" is relative and subjective as it's dependent on the norms and values in the society that it's expressed in. Sure you may have some overlapping between different societal expressions of "freedom" but for the most part this does not negate the fact that the standards that are used to define what "freedom" entails is dependent on the society in question.

Meaning there will be a "clash" of what constitutes as freedom in different societies, question is who should decide which standard that we should abide by and why ? In your case what you simply resort to is assume the universality and superiority of what you are convinced of and judge by this standard. Why should i or any other muslim judge according to your standards ? who are you to claim moral authority over us ?


If your claim to care about freedom of others is truly genuine why is it that you fail to hold accountable western states and other proponents of democracy when they engage in the oppression, and injustices of others. Why are you only fixated only on al shabab and isis when westerners have committed far worse atrocities, continue to do in the present and in the foreseeable future ?


You overlook their injustices simply because they are of the same ideological background as you and view them as being superior to us. So keep it moving warya and drop the act we can see right through it

 

[Umm-al-Dhegdheeriyaa]

What! The whole idea of religion is to govern people and their lives even the west that you think so proudly of, have religion implemented in their ways of governing
If you look at some secularist ideals they are similar to Islamic ones. Freedom of religion has always been apart of Islamic rule until recently, I’m pretty sure extremists were dropped as children, hence why they are so messed up
Religion establishes the ways in which we should govern societies or even our own lives.
Once you separate religion from the state, you lose that ideal that this is the correct way Allah wanted us to be/ people start doing whatever they think is right
But then again human beings use religion to their own advantages, so I can see where he is coming from

 

[Omar del Sur]

 

[Jaydaan]

If I was a islamic scholar and the gaalos and moderate muslims were fan of me I would question myself

 

[PhySom]

If you beleive that other people should be killed because they don't believe that an Arabian man in a desert who heard voices was communicating with a God , you should be arrested.

If you believe that said Arabians man partaking in slavery , sex slavery , marriage to young girls and having nearly a dozen wives are actions of the 'best man in the history of humanity' , you should be arrested.

If you believe that people will burn in eternity since a mystical being which has never showed himself to anyone simultaneously and released a succinct message with scientific validations , you should be arressted.

 

[AussieHustler]

Let me break it down for you so as show you the level of intolerance that you're exhibiting. That intolerance of yours is what is hindering you from having an actual discussion with people who have opposing views.

Firstly you equating freedom to democracy is a false narrative as it implies that "freedom" can only be attained in a democracy but most importantly adherents of democracy and democratic states have engaged in the subjugation, killing and oppression of people that don't have the same world view as them.

In fact they continue to do so under the pretext of spreading "freedom and democracy" and when the masses engage in democratic elections and bring to power individuals that are not aligned with western imperial interests they undermine them and bring to power dictators.

Isn't it quite odd that purported democracy advocates see nothing wrong when democracy is undermined in such a violent and oppressive manner, they keep offering democracy as a means of escaping from the current situation, and then take it away once it doesn’t go the way they want it to.

Secondly what constitutes as "freedom" is relative and subjective as it's dependent on the norms and values in the society that it's expressed in. Sure you may have some overlapping between different societal expressions of "freedom" but for the most part this does not negate the fact that the standards that are used to define what "freedom" entails is dependent on the society in question.

Meaning there will be a "clash" of what constitutes as freedom in different societies, question is who should decide which standard that we should abide by and why ? In your case what you simply resort to is assume the universality and superiority of what you are convinced of and judge by this standard. Why should i or any other muslim judge according to your standards ? who are you to claim moral authority over us ?


If your claim to care about freedom of others is truly genuine why is it that you fail to hold accountable western states and other proponents of democracy when they engage in the oppression, and injustices of others. Why are you only fixated only on al shabab and isis when westerners have committed far worse atrocities, continue to do in the present and in the foreseeable future ?


You overlook their injustices simply because they are of the same ideological background as you and view them as being superior to us. So keep it moving warya and drop the act we can see right through it

@AdoonkaAlle

Sxb, when I was a Salafi, I was taught the same tactics you echoed above to deflect from tough questions. You couldn’t honestly say an Amir will be nominated by the religious sect that’s running that jurisdiction like Amir Baqdadi of ISIS or Godane of Alshabaab and if anyone fails to give them their loyalty, they will be declared “murtads” and their beheading is legitimately Halal. Since you showed contempt to Siad Barre’s regime as a totalitarian dictatorship, the question is, why are you replacing a civilian dictatorship with a religious dictatorship? Since you will never answer it, I sense a tribal animosity!!

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@AdoonkaAlle

Sxb, when I was a Salafi, I was taught the same tactics you echoed above to deflect from tough questions. You couldn’t honestly say an Amir will be nominated by the religious sect that’s running that jurisdiction like Amir Baqdadi of ISIS or Godane of Alshabaab and if anyone fails to give them their loyalty, they will be declared “murtads” and their beheading is legitimately Halal. Since you showed contempt to Siad Barre’s regime as a totalitarian dictatorship, the question is, why are you replacing a civilian dictatorship with a religious dictatorship? Since you will never answer it, I sense a tribal animosity!!

War anaga waxaa argnay !!!!!

Where are you getting this notion that if you don't swear allegiance to a ruler you become a murtad ? You are so deluded into your nonsense that you are critiquing me on the basis on not abiding by the understanding espoused by isis and alshabab ? are you even listening to yourself ninyahoow ?

 

[AussieHustler]

War anaga waxaa argnay !!!!!

Where are you getting this notion that if you don't swear allegiance to a ruler you become a murtad ? You are so deluded into your nonsense that you are critiquing me on the basis on not abiding by the understanding espoused by isis and alshabab ? are you even listening to yourself ninyahoow ?

@AdoonkaAlle

I’ve asked a simple question about what sort of governance for an “Islamic State” is required, you went on a rant against democracy without offering an alternative. If you don’t know it and can’t provide any model, Sxb, let’s end this repetitive argument that’s taking us nowhere. Shalom.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@AdoonkaAlle

I’ve asked a simple question about what sort of governance for an “Islamic State” is required, you went on a rant against democracy without offering an alternative. If you don’t know it and can’t provide any model, Sxb, let’s end this repetitive argument that’s taking us nowhere. Shalom.

I only elaborated further as you refused to concede any option other than your false alternatives. You are fully aware of that islam has existed for more than 1400 yrs yet the only comparison you could care to bring as en example of an islamic government was either isis or alshabab, why is that ? since you claim to be an ex salafi how come you couldn't bring any other examples ?

According to you we either had to choose between a choice that affirms your preferred system against that of khawarij, any reasonable person can see right through this and know what the intended purpose for positing such a false alternative is.

On top of that you went on a rant about how lack of pledging loyalty to a ruler makes one a murtad, an absurd belief that i've never heard of and have the audacity to claim that this what i envision for an islamic state You then accuse me of engaging in taqiyya a shia doctrine mind you, that's the typical right wing cadaan reaction when muslims in general don't subscribe to their assumptions.


I don't base my understanding of islam on what a kafir believes it to be and as i stated before you are not entitled to facts so when you make outlandish claims it's only natural that you get rebuked simple as that. I agree to end the discussion here as you're only interested in validating your bias and nothing else.