Also, are you somali?
GENETICS The Origin of the Sudanese 'Africans'
- Thread starter JackieBurkhart
- Start date
Wallahi on the Quran, Based (The part about reviving native cultures, not the fascism bit)I've met morrocans in my school who get called fake Arabs by some Saudis.
As far as I know, North africans (except Egypt) arabized themselves due to native rulers in places like Algeria who though that they were Arabs and arabized their country.
I personally know a few Tunisians and Algerians who prefer to just call themselves Amazigh and talked about how they were arabized in a negative light.
The point of this was that if North africans who look Arab can't even come to a proper consensus whether they are Arab or not, then I don't think Sudan could.
I feel like North Africa,including Sudan, should try revive their native culture whilst sticking to Islam because spending decades fighting over being Arab or not when that is not your ethnicity is not the best look imo.
Also just to add on, if I become a somali politician, I will bring the death sentence for any coon who claims somalis are Arabs. As a self declared somali F@cist, I will not allow negro behaviour In my noble nation
JackieBurkhart
The years don't matter, the life in those years do
Yes, just curious considering I find this pretty interesting.
My Ethnic Identity is anonymous for my own personal reasons and preferences. I may be from an Arab tribe, or I may not be, guess we'll never know. But if we were to assume I am of Arab stock, the majority of Sudan, Arab or not has origins rooted deep in a Nilo-Saharan language or culture. The way I see it, Nilo-Saharan is something like a symbol for Sudan, it's something that almost neatly connects everyone in the country. And if you were to mention the Cushitic speakers like the Beja, they are the result of Ancestral populations to modern Nilo-Saharan speakers encountering Neolithic Egyptians so they are still connected in this regard.@Nilo-Saharan
If you're from one of the Arab tribes in Sudan, what made you choose "Nilo-Saharan" as your pseudonym?
It may be a disputed family, but one thing is that it sure brings light to the various connections we Sudanese people have with each other and the South no matter how ancient those connections may be. It's my own little scrap Emblem for Sudan.
Being Arab has nothing to do with looking Arab but I am in agreement that Sudanese people should break free of these chains and revert to their native identities regardless of what it takes to achieve that.
Which isn't entirely due to Arab migration. Ancient and Neolithic migrations from the levant into Egypt and subsequently Sudan is a major reason for the high frequency of j1. So mentioning j1 forces me to respond with, "So what?".
It's not something Inherent about Arabs per se and I think we'd need a lot of papers to actually try prove that.
The North-South war is more grounded on the political structure of Sudan and how the country was managed and controlled. South Sudanese people justifiably were against being Marginalized by a government that sought to erase them and their culture that they detected to be troublesome to their regime and Arab nationalism. So they rebelled and that lead to retaliation from the government and we know what happened next. Darfur isn't much different except there's no religious divide and some Darfuris were secretly playing for the other team, receiving support from the government and military to carry out acts of genocide against specific ethnic groups.
These are useful sources but something that often goes ignored in the contemporary discourse of Sudanese history of Arabization is the role of the Sudanese in initially Arabizing themselves.
The Funj sultanate has an underlying but very impactful role in this case and they are responsible for gradually weakening Nubian states, linking Islam to Arab interests and then spreading it like that, Starting the hilarious Sudanese tradition of making false genealogical claims to Arab Nobility (Often relatives of the Prophet (pbuh)), Slave raids in villages that were mainly populated by Non-Muslims and those of lower social statuses (going hand in hand with lacking some sort of Arab identification) etc.
The Darfur Sultanate even played a slight role. You'd think the Fur were always proud Africans that could tell the difference between Islam and Coonery but they were almost exact parallels of the Funj except for the fact that the Fur eventually put an end to these traditions whilst the rulers of Funj went on to intermarry with Arabs creating many of the same Arabs that control the Sudanese political elite today.
I could be wrong here but definitions of conquering generally explicitly mention military force and in some cases conventional warfare. Migrations that gradually increased leading to instability within kingdoms leading to their eventual collapse doesn't seem to correspond with that.
Exactly what happened in Sudan, Islam, and Arabism were two things that could not be separated nor distinguished between.
The alchemist
VIP
Sudanese Arabs are Arabs. It's their identity, authenticated by lineage formations, that goes back to Arabian progenitors.
It's that easy.
Why are they dark.. Well because they have endemic African heritage? It's not hard to understand.
Unlike Somalis, Sudanese Arabs actually got Arab origins, and it's well historically documented and genetically proven. Although the gene-centric view of identity is really new-age BS -- no one cares about haplogroup in real life. A light skin Nubian is not Arab (and is not the result of Arab people that mixed with pure Nilotics) and a very dark Arab might descend from Banu Hashim. That is Sudan. The typical "you're black so you're not Arab (racism)" or "you're not original Nubian since you're too light (Arab invader argument)" is stupidity.
A lot of people, foreign Arabs and random Sub-Saharans project their view of Sudan based on ignorance and talk like they have ownership and understanding of their many identities, into quite disrespectful proportions. It's either racism or projection.
The funny thing is, Sudan is more Arab than any of the North African countries, while at the same time carrying unique diversity quite expressed in the Arabs themselves as well.
It's that easy.
Why are they dark.. Well because they have endemic African heritage? It's not hard to understand.
Unlike Somalis, Sudanese Arabs actually got Arab origins, and it's well historically documented and genetically proven. Although the gene-centric view of identity is really new-age BS -- no one cares about haplogroup in real life. A light skin Nubian is not Arab (and is not the result of Arab people that mixed with pure Nilotics) and a very dark Arab might descend from Banu Hashim. That is Sudan. The typical "you're black so you're not Arab (racism)" or "you're not original Nubian since you're too light (Arab invader argument)" is stupidity.
A lot of people, foreign Arabs and random Sub-Saharans project their view of Sudan based on ignorance and talk like they have ownership and understanding of their many identities, into quite disrespectful proportions. It's either racism or projection.
The funny thing is, Sudan is more Arab than any of the North African countries, while at the same time carrying unique diversity quite expressed in the Arabs themselves as well.
KinsiHilaac
Pretend there is a title here
I've met morrocans in my school who get called fake Arabs by some Saudis.
As far as I know, North africans (except Egypt) arabized themselves due to native rulers in places like Algeria who though that they were Arabs and arabized their country.
I personally know a few Tunisians and Algerians who prefer to just call themselves Amazigh and talked about how they were arabized in a negative light.
The point of this was that if North africans who look Arab can't even come to a proper consensus whether they are Arab or not, then I don't think Sudan could.
I feel like North Africa,including Sudan, should try revive their native culture whilst sticking to Islam because spending decades fighting over being Arab or not when that is not your ethnicity is not the best look imo.
Also just to add on, if I become a somali politician, I will bring the death sentence for any coon who claims somalis are Arabs. As a self declared somali F@cist, I will not allow negro behaviour In my noble nation
in my experience with the North Africans I’ve met. Or the so called ‘Arabized’ Africans. They’ve claimed African one day and the other day arab
@Nilo-Saharan
The Sudanese people are mixture of Nubian and Arab tribes and all the other original people of those lands .
Simple
Also Arabs of today throughout the middle east will always consider Sudanese to be a fake Arabs because of their darker skin tone , it's ignorance on their part .
The lighter you are the slimmer the nose or smaller the nose will indicate that you are a Arab , hence the white skin worship and European worship the Arabs of today do in their culture .
Sudanese are a black African people who speak Arabic . The lighter you are the more accepting to Arabs you will be .
Phenotype hair texture skin tone dictates who you are in this silly world .
The Sudanese people are mixture of Nubian and Arab tribes and all the other original people of those lands .
Simple
Also Arabs of today throughout the middle east will always consider Sudanese to be a fake Arabs because of their darker skin tone , it's ignorance on their part .
The lighter you are the slimmer the nose or smaller the nose will indicate that you are a Arab , hence the white skin worship and European worship the Arabs of today do in their culture .
Sudanese are a black African people who speak Arabic . The lighter you are the more accepting to Arabs you will be .
Phenotype hair texture skin tone dictates who you are in this silly world .
The alchemist
VIP
There is nothing unclear about my writing.Nigga are they Arab or not? Dayum!
I agree for most of what you say. Being Arab is totally unrelated to being Black, one can be both perceived/regarded as black whilst being Arab. I argue that in some cases someone doesn't even need Arab ancestry to be regarded as Arab and it's the cultural identity that is far more important. Regardless of If Sudanese people are Arab or not, I'm still very firm in my motives against us associating with them.
I only have some confusion with the last part about Sudan being "more Arab than any of the North African countries". How would you define being "more Arab". Ethnic/Cultural identities of this expanse are quite fluid and there aren't strict lines and criteria set out to determine the extent to which someone falls into that given identity. This is unless, of course, you're speaking in the Genetic sense, which even then I'd have to see some evidence for because a lot of Eurasian admixture in Sudan is attributed to Ancient and Neolithic Levantine migrations. A few Arab tribes in Sudan that lack a history of contact with these Neolithic/Ancient Levantine migrants or their descendants seem to have Eurasian admixture that doesn't really exceed around 20%, at least from runs I've done myself. The Arab tribes that give the frequently cited Cushitic-esque Eurasian admixture levels are predominantly tribes that have a well-established and proven history of contact and relation to Ancient Egyptians, Cushitic speakers, Levantine migrants, or anyone who could pass on this Age old admixture.
Arab and African are not mutually exclusive. On the other hand, you could argue something like Arab and Nubian, or Arab and Amazigh, or Arab and Beja are actually mutually exclusive.
Yeah, that's about right. Arab tribes in Sudan obviously have different origins from each other prior to their Arabization but it's about the same case for most tribes. Indigenous groups of people mixed with incoming Arabs, merged cultures, formed an identity off of that, and created the given Arab tribe you have now.
They're Arab but Arab in the same sense North Africans and Levantine people can be considered Arab. I think the main controversy around the whole Arab discussion is lots of people incorrectly assume being Arab means having a homogenous cluster of Peninsular Arab ancestry constituting both your Paternal and Maternal lineages.Nigga are they Arab or not? Dayum!
Sudanese Arabs are Arab but more importantly "Arab" in the "Arabized" sense. You'll be surprised to find how recent it was for some tribes to completely assimilate into Arab culture and uphold their Identity. The Ja'alin, the biggest Arab tribe in Sudan, and believed to be one of the oldest, according to accounts from the 19th century, spoke their original indigenous languages and practiced their indigenous cultures (With very coherent Arab influences of course) up until this time period. I even knew some Sudanese Arabs who had great grandparents that couldn't speak Arabic at all, only knowing how to speak an indigenous language. You could make a whole case if you wanted that most of Sudan's significant shifts towards merging into the Arab cultural/ethnic identity have happened in the last couple of centuries and that the earlier instances of Arab penetration into Sudan and the role of Sudanese Sultans were more an initiation for what was to come rather than a constant propagation with instant far-reaching social impacts. Everyone exaggerates what happened in Sudan in the early age of Arabization.
The alchemist
VIP
Arab nationalism, to mention a few states, Egypt, Algeria, and Morocco, is not similar to being of an Arab lineage and hence through extension, a tribe, e.g., Ja'ali. The first notion is strictly based on nationalistic elements, speaking Arabic as a language and being Muslim. That identity facet formed quite in the modern age, roughly around the 50s for Egypt. None of those people, besides peripheral bedouin tribes in those countries, a demographic that forms less than a fraction of the country's populace, trace ancestry to Arabia. The small bedouin tribes in the deserts see themselves quite differently from the average Moroccan urbanite Arab, who is no different from the Berbers but in identity. A Bataheen is not an Arab on abstract terms alone, unlike an Egyptian. If Egypt started to strengthen its nativistic phenomenon and got rid of the Arab nationalism, the Bedouins of that country would still be Arab as opposed to the average Egyptian. Egyptians know full well they are not Arabians from the Peninsula.
Identity on tribal collective and culture and lineage-based tradition is what I am speaking of, not an elusive modern concept of Arabism that the Arab countries subscribe to. Egypt is an Arab country. How many actual Arabs native to the land do you think exist? Not even a fraction of the population, and you usually only find them in desert areas where they hold territory and mind their business.
Sudanese Arabs are a significant portion of the population of Sudan, and that is what I mean by more Arabs living in Sudan than in any other North African country. And I mean in absolute numbers, not only the numbers proportional to the ratio in the relative sense, which is already a given.
If you want education on Northeast African genetics, search this sub-forum, and you will learn a thing or two. At least find out on G25 how Egyptian (ancient and modern), non-AEA in Cushitic, Arabian, and Levantine ancestry differ in signature profiles. This is not turning into a genetics lecture. Do your own homework.
