The Digital Sisterhood officially CANCELLED #filthysisterhood

[Angelina]

How can it be diversion when I already addressed the attack on the sister's podcast & stated that it was nothing more slander, an attack to discredit them etc.

Even when i'm in agreement with you regarding the attack on the sister's podcast you still claim that i'm belittling their issues simply because i questioned you about your selective prioritisation of women's issues.

How is it ‘selective’ when I also talk about male issues? Do you have that attitude when black people talk about race or when working class people talk about class? Why is it only an issue when women talk about sexism?

Did i ever once question anything about the attack on the sisters ? isn't this not a good example of being dismissive ?

No, I find it dismissive that you accuse me of prioritizing women’s issue because I made a remark that it is women that are usually the ones who take the brunt of sexism, similarly it is black people who take the brunt of racism and poor people take the brunt of classism. These are all facts we know of society, yet when women acknowledge this it is an issue for you. There is definitely an element of you wanting to shut down any real meaningful conversation surrounding sexism. If a black person solely talks about racism towards black people in a given scenario, that doesn’t mean that they don’t acknowledge that white people also suffer. You know this, so why does that understanding not also extend to women and gender?

Why is it that any time a man asks a question regarding questionable actions, views that women hold the response is to shut down and discredit the man ?

What questionable actions are we talking about here? I have no issue with your criticism of the podcast as you feel that they should try and handle sensitive topics better. That makes sense.

are all men the same ? can there ever be a man who has valid criticisms ?

When have I ever said all men are the same. Again, there is a running theme here. When I talk about sexism I talk about it generally. Sexism is a general issue that effects society, racism is a general issue that effects society. Class distinction is a general issue that effects society.

Yet again, you’re making a false statement in which you’re trying to paint me as some sort of man hater for merely acknowledging that sexism mostly impacts women. That is a tactic used by some brothers to try and silence sisters. I don’t believe that is your conscience intentions, but why make such a statement when it isn’t true or here or there.

I never once said men can’t criticize, I never once said all men are the same, yet here again you can’t help but put words in my mouth. Engage with what I say or not at all. Because this isn’t fair whatsoever Wallahi.

After addressing the issues i moved on and this is when you quoted my following post

View attachment 241362


This is where our disagreement comes in, your insistence on continuation of the gender centric paradigm and my objection to it. The sole reason why i kept on asking why should men prioritise women's issues over their own issues is because this is exactly what gender centric discourses reinforces

Do you have issues with race centric dialogue when addressing racism? Do you have issues with class centric dialogue when addressing class issues? I mean how could you have issues with the topic at hand being being the ‘centric’ issue. Baffling critique there.

So why on earth would you have issues with gender centric conversations when sexism is at play. Men and women are both genders, so of course gender is going to be in the equation. It goes against common sense for you to have issues with conversations surrounding gender when the whole conversation is indeed about gender dynamics. Hence I ask, what is your intentions, to shut down all sorts of dialogue? Because we can’t discuss sexism if it isn’t gender centric as sexism is indeed all about gender. Therefore, my only conclusion is you simply don’t want women to talk about their experiences with how their gender is treated. Classic case of dismissal.

Prioritisation of rights based solely on the basis of gender is very problematic as gender becomes the reference point on how we seek our rights and interact with the opposite sex. If i as a man believe that women are oppressive to me how do you think i will interact with them ?

Not once did I say I prioritize women’s rights above all. That is what you keep on saying because you know that is the only stick you can use. I have other interests, there is racism, there is class, there is the factors in life and gender is one of them which you try to shut down.

The bit in bold. Imagine if a black person was talking about racism and you come along and say, you can’t talk about black peoples experience alone because what if a white person feels that they too are oppressed by black people? That sounds very silly because we know that generally speaking although white people can most definitely suffer racism at the hands of black people, it is usually the other way around.

So why insult peoples intelligence? You wouldn’t do it to a working class person, you wouldn’t do it to a person on color, so why women? Especially when we all know generally women suffer from sexism at the hands of women compared to the other way around?

It's very easy to distinguish between a case of whataboutism and a genuine critique. For example i didn't not shy away from addressing the attack on the sisters, i didn't approve of such actions nor did i deflect by bringing into the discussion the issues of men while i was addressing it. I began speaking about it after finishing addressing the specific case about the sisters.

Not every instance of someone introducing men's or women's issues into a discussion can be labelled as "whataboutism" that's why it's important not to accuse people carelessly. As false accusations of whataboutism can be itself a mechanism of deflecting away valid views, criticisms etc

Nope, like I said I have no issues with you criticizing the sisters. You were respectful and honest in your response to them.

My issue is that I literally said that sexism in the Muslim community is mostly directed at women and you accused me of being gender centric for literally saying the truth.

Then I asked you if you could give me general example of men in the Muslim community being oppressed by women. Yet you refused to answer.

I totally understand your point and share your concerns about the general negativity & hostility towards women displayed by some men laakin you need to remember that they don't constitute a majority.

Having a conversation about the general hostility towards women which you acknowledge is an issue is indeed a gender centric statement. It is ironic that you accuse me of focusing on that when this whole thread was indeed about a bunch of incels who are generally sexist and hostile towards women. That is why we are having this conversation in the first place.

Remember talking about societal sexism doesn’t mean that I believe all men are sexist if I spoke about general issues of class does that mean I think all upper and middle class people look down on the poor? No. If I talk about racism towards certain groups like madows, does it mean that I think all white or Arabs are racist? No of course not. So why have that attitude with women?

What is even more infuriating is that in my posts about sexism, I alway say some.

Anways, I wish you the best. It was an old round interesting conversation and my intention isn’t to attack.

 

[Shidanem]

From what it looks like, I don’t think the content of this podcast is something anyone would sanely support on this site.

However, the abuse these women got in public is not deserved. Do you think your father would have a 9 hour meeting slandering these women for a mistake?

Point out the wrong and if they don’t want to change, then it’s up to them.

That OscarBrittania account is a well-known troll member.

Brother, troll is no longer a serious secret movement, you got one of their members tweeting this. It’s a bunch of Incel Larp trolls embracing third reich aesthetics.

 

[Periplus]

View attachment 241434
Brother, troll is no longer a serious secret movement, you got one of their members tweeting this. It’s a bunch of Incel Larp trolls embracing third reich aesthetics.

They were never serious but an example of how fucked Somali racist discourse is on Twitter.

Many of the controversial race threads are based on Twitter/TikToks they’re involved in from the Digital Sisterhood controversy and that AliTheMali character.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@Angelina

Just to reiterate both of us agree that women do face injustice, I’ve summarised my disagreement with you as follows
Just to reiterate both of us agree that women do face injustice, I’ve summarised my disagreement with you as follows

1. Ideological differences: You've adopted a framework of gender advocacy that overlooks very important realities when it comes to relations between men and women, most importantly the diversity and causes of women's oppression. In your view majority of oppression that women face is a result of men, while one can argue generally that women do face injustice from men this however isn't universal. Women like men are divided across culture, ethnicity, race, religion, class, ideology and all of this are important factors to consider when speaking about their lived experiences. That's why it's very problematic to reduce women's oppression to simply just their gender and assume that there's a shared oppression among women.

Take for instance the context of cadaan women who like to speak on behalf of all non-cadaan women as if their lived realities were the same. Cadaan women have been part and parcel of the oppression of non cadaan women since the beginning of women's rights movements and they continue to do today.

Think of weaponisation of women’s rights and how this has been used to justify invasions, sanctions & the general subordination of the third world. There’s also been an increasing trend of non- cadaan women taking part in this as well, in the somali context we’ve the examples of ilhan cumar & ayaan hirsi. Despite their differences in ideology, political views they both advocate for intervention & sanctions of other nations with ayaanbelonging to the extreme end of it.

Different groups of women occupy different positions of power in relation to not only other women but also men. Privileged women who occupy higher status in their societies are not the same as poverty stricken women who’ve to struggle for their lives, add to this the divisions of ethnicity, nationality, religion etc & you get multiple layers of injustice .

Bulshada soomaliyeed is one that’s divided along qabil, those women who belong to minority qabils face an added layer of injustice & oppression that women from major qabils don’t. These women share their struggles with men from their qabils more so than they do with women from major qabils. That’s why it’s very simplistic to reduce their suffering to just that of being a woman.

The more you look into women’s issues critically the more you realise that women across the world don’t have a shared oppression. Women just like men not only oppress those of their gender but the opposite sex as well.

One the best examples that highlights that women are capable of oppression towards men, is the story of Nabi Yusuf AS. He was imprisoned because he denied the advances of a woman. If a Prophet of Allah faced such injustice what about the average man ? How many men have lost their jobs, wealth, kids, life etc due to the lies, slander, vindictiveness of women ?

Aren’t gaalo women not the helpers of their men in invading, killing, oppressing our fellow muslims & other innocent gaalo ?

Oppression & injustice takes many forms from backbiting, slander etc to murder. In fact in Islam the greatest form of injustice is shirk as it’s an injustice towards Allah. This is why it’s very important to adopt a framework that’s consistent with our deen when we deal with issues affecting us no matter how minute they’re.


2. Contradictions : As a result of making gender the focal point of your advocacy this has led you to overlook double standards in your approach & views. Take for instance the issue of muslim men adopting incel views, you were concerned & highlighted the problems this causes. Laakin when it came to the female version of incel rhetoric you didn’t display the same level of concern, in fact you entertained some of their views that you felt were good advice to women in general.

As far as Islam is concerned such groups are no different from each other but because they were women you overlooked their problematic views & took what you believed was of benefit. In the thread about abortion you also took sides because of gender.

This is why I suggested that it was important to take a step back & reflect on our assumptions, views that we hold so as to see if they’re consistent with diinta. If you’re willing to accept & reject views due to gender then why can’t men do the same ? What’s the benefit of pointing fingers at men when you’re in the same boat?

Women want men to show compassion, be understanding, fulfil your rights, support and defend your honour & dignity laakin you’re not willing to do that. If the basis of your interaction with men starts with viewing them as oppressors then I’m afraid that’s all you’re going to experience.

Men like women are very diverse some good, some bad, some easy to interact with others not so much. You should deal & interact with them accordingly just like you would for women. This is a much healthier approach & will go along way in finding solutions for our problems as individuals, for our respective genders and lastly for our community as a whole

 

[Angelina]

@AdoonkaAlle
I’m fully aware of that, I take race, age and class as a factor. A rich woman’s issues isn’t the same as poor or a black woman’s who also battles racism as well. I’ve never once claimed that only gender is a factor and my analysis is a lot more sophisticated than that.

If a black man analyses race issues, does it mean he doesn’t take into account how classism also oppresses Black people and how rich black men and poor black men have different outlooks and experiences? Of course not. Lol, you’re analysis is very similar to white racism deniers by the way as they disqualify the real issue of racism because black people oppress each other and that there are oppressed working class cadaans.

You’re doing the exact same thing and it’s funny to see.

]I'll go into detail about that in another post below. Please read that.

There’s also been an increasing trend of non- cadaan women taking part in this as well, in the somali context we’ve the examples of ilhan cumar & ayaan hirsi. Despite their differences in ideology, political views they both advocate for intervention & sanctions of other nations with ayaanbelonging to the extreme end of it.

the discussion we are having is very different, Ayaan is a straight gaal and Ilhan advocates for things that violate the deen.

Also, sadly cadaans would not be able to take advantage of that if we as Muslims cleaned up our back garden first. Similarly Westerners would not be able to take advantage of Somalia, if we Somalis cleaned up our back yard. Shutting down this dialogue within the Muslim community with Muslim women who are trying to look at Muslim women’s rights without violating Islamic law is the first place to start, but instead we’re being shut down and nothing is changing when it comes to the plight of some of our women, yet you’re surprised that people can easily use the women issue against the Muslim community. Listen to us because the only way things can improve is through compassion and working together. I also feel the same way about racism with black Muslims and tribalism such as madhibans ect.

Bulshada soomaliyeed is one that’s divided along qabil, those women who belong to minority qabils face an added layer of injustice & oppression that women from major qabils don’t.

Yes, this is something I’ve always noted if you look at my previous posts about the issues of rape we have in Somalia. You’ll find that the biggest victims are indeed Madbhiban women and those from minority tribes.

If women lack protection from the men of their community because those very same men are discriminated against, then their experience will be worse than women with menfolk who are respected.

I’ve always said it, male oppression makes women’s oppression so much worse, hence men too need to uplifted for the women to also be in a better situation. Only focusing on women is detrimental to society as women need men similarly to how men need women.

These women share their struggles with men from their qabils more so than they do with women from major qabils. That’s why it’s very simplistic to reduce their suffering to just that of being a woman.

I’m fully aware of that. Male oppression and female oppression goes hand in hand. Studies show that during war times in which men are being oppressed and killed by other men, women are much more likely to be raped and abused than during times in which men are at peace. We’ve seen this in Somalia during dagaalaha and we’ve seen it in Syria.

The more you look into women’s issues critically the more you realise that women across the world don’t have a shared oppression. Women just like men not only oppress those of their gender but the opposite sex as well.

They don’t have a shared experience, but you need to understand that historically, despite white privileged women being oppressors and even abusing black people, they too were oppressed in the sense that they were denied education, inheriting houses or education. Things we as Muslims regard as oppressive as women having these rights are God-given. Hence, one can be the oppressor and the oppressed and my analysis takes that into account. Not looking into that shows a lack of critical thinking.

Adoonka, not understanding that the oppressor can be the oppressed will stop you from believing that racism and classism is also a societal issue.

How many men have lost their jobs, wealth, kids, life etc due to the lies, slander, vindictiveness of women ?

With regards to rape? Many have but you need to understand that looking at statistics that these cases make up less than 3%. It really isn’t as common as actual rape. Rape is a global epidemic.

There is no denying that some women slander and they need to be dealt with the full extent of the law and that is an example of women oppressing men, but when have I denied that men can be oppressed? but using the slander of men to deny the sexism women face is rather a new low don’t you think?

Let me use your logic against you:

Look at how many white people have been mugged and beat by madows. Can we now deny that the world, especially some Whites and Arabs have been historically racist towards madows? When talking about black issues can we say we shouldn’t make it ‘race centric’ because some white people are victims as well?

Oppression & injustice takes many forms from backbiting, slander etc to murder. In fact in Islam the greatest form of injustice is shirk as it’s an injustice towards Allah. This is why it’s very important to adopt a framework

The framework you talk about is something you’re only adopting when it comes to sexism. If I was soley talking about how racism another ‘ism’ against madows, you wouldn’t be talking the way you’re talking and that is incredibly hypocritical.

that’s consistent with our deen when we deal with issues affecting us no matter how minute they’re.

Next time we have a discussion about race or tribalism. I want you to be consistent and reprimand me of of being ‘race centric and qabil centric’. When I acknowledge that madhibans have suffered tribalism more, I want to see you reprimand me by reminding me of the suffering of Hawiyes and MJs as well, especially during the war.

This is why I suggested that it was important to take a step back & reflect on our assumptions, views that we hold so as to see if they’re consistent with diinta.

What’s the benefit of pointing fingers at men when you’re in the same boat?


What benefit does a poor black person have talking about racism when there are poor whites that are also suffering and in the same boat?

If the bit in bold doesn’t make sense to you, then what you wrote also shouldn’t make sense either.

Women want men to show compassion, be understanding, fulfil your rights, support and defend your honour & dignity laakin you’re not willing to do that.

That is a lie. I literally said that I care about issues effecting men like knife crime, poverty ect and I often reply to these threads without hijacking it and throwing tantrums. If a man said that men suffer more from violence crimes and that men get groomed more when it comes to drug trafficking, does that mean that man doesn’t care or take into account the women who also suffer? Of course not. We need men to speak up about this and I have no issues with men voicing it.

Also, you’re lying right now and it’s gross, really gross and it takes away from your points because this isn’t coming from a place of honest discussion. In my last post I’ve talked about how young boys are groomed and drug trafficked and an acknowledged an array of male issues, so why lie?

If the basis of your interaction with men starts with viewing them as oppressors then I’m afraid that’s all you’re going to experience.

Nope, because some men oppressing women and getting away with it is a fact of life. Similar to the way some white people being racist is a fact of life or the plight of the poor at the hands of some of the rich.

Women are much more likely to be victims of DV in relationships, much more likely to killed by their partners, much more likely to be forced into marriages, much more likely in conservative societies to be barred from education and financial independence, much more likely to raped and in conservative cultures those issues manifest itself in law and cultural attitudes such marrying rapist, being blamed for being raped and not being able to marry as they're seen as spoiled goods.

Those are all facts in which you want to brush under the carpet which is to be frank dangerous and it is all gender based. if we don’t acknowledge that men and women are more likely to suffer certain things, we will never be able to get to the crux of the issue.

You can understand that men are much more likely to be victims of race or religious profiling or violent crimes with regards to drugs, Islamaphobic laws but you don’t give women the same grace.

 

[Angelina]

@AdoonkaAlle

The irony of your analysis is that by denying that sexism is an issue that mostly impacts women as you mention class, race factors and male oppression and by your inability to understand that an oppressor can also be from an oppressed class, people can easily use your exact same arguments to claim that racism against blacks isn't an issue, tribalism against madhibaans and Bantus isn't an issue and classism against the poor and working class isn't an issue. And Wallahi, i've heard those exact same arguments.

The arguments you employed aren't new, this is something cadaans have used such as talking about black on black crime, the fact that working class white people have historically been looked down upon as well and the fact that there are different types of madows, some being richer and others being poor which adds an added layer of oppression and the fact that some whites have suffered at the hands of black people. You did the exact same thing:

YOUR POINTS to sum up:
-Women on women abuse
-Working class women vs richer women
-Women who oppress men.
-Women having bigger issues due to iman/morals.

As you can see your arguments are identical. Switch women with black or poor. That is the only difference.

An added layer with you is that you use the deen. You said kufr is worse than sexism. That is most definitely true. But ask yourself, how appropriate is it if I a woman from a Landheere qabil said to a midgaan or Bantu, tribalism isn't a major issue as some midgaans follow bid'ah or Kufr ideology. Or that I use 'morals' as a way to not talk about tribalism being a real issue due to issues like Nikko ect. Tbh, that arguement is already used against Somali Bantus. And crazily enough I had a debate with the poster World about that. He also claims that tribalism isn't an issue as some of them have worked with Al Shaytan. The group that have ruined Somalia. You've employed that exact same analysis with women as well. There is nothing sophisticated by your analysis, as that is used by anyone who wants to downplay racism, sexism Or tribalism. Its reductive because let's be real we can have an indepth conversation about bid'ah, morals and the like whilst also looking into tribalism. That is what I found infuriating about your points, because it isn't new and have been used to downplay most oppressions in debates i've had.

Yet, the idea of someone doing that to madhibaan or bantu would probably trouble you I'm guessing, hence why do it to women and even more troubling is your arrogance by behaving as though your argument is more in line with the deen. If I make that argument towards a madow or Madhibaan is that more in line with the deen? Funnily enough, many posters on here actually do, at least they're consistent as they happily employ that analysis towards the poor, minority qabil and gender.

To add, this is why these cadaans will say, 'race centric' analysis is wrong and that a black person shouldn't talk about being mistreated by white people, even historically. They also wrongly accuse any black person who talks about race of hating white people. You did the exact same thing with me. They even mention other examples of white suffering like Irish indentured servants, the fact that in the early 1600s a very small minority of black people had slaves in the Americas as a way to rebuff claims of black oppression. All of that is indeed historically true btw, but I ask you, does that take away the fact that black people have and do suffer racism?

As you can I hope clearly see, their arguements are dumb. A black person can be racist, oppressive and classist. A woman can also be terrible racist, oppressive to men and even use class as a way to oppress. That doesn't take away the reality that in a white persons/man's environment/world, black peoples suffer more from racism.women suffer more from sexism.That doesn't take away from the fact that white people suffer. That doesn't take away from the fact that men suffer. Someone like Kanye a black man but who is millionaire/billionaire clearly has more privileges than a working class white man. Does that mean racism isn't an issue? If you can understand that simple logic, you should be able to extend it to women.

I know these tactics very well, i've debated with people who used this in race/qabil centric debates. Wallahi, i have even had one say that Somali bantus have bigger things to worry about as they're known for doing unacceptable practices as a way to shut down tribalism dialogue. I wasn't born yesterday.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@AdoonkaAlle
I’m fully aware of that, I take race, age and class as a factor. A rich woman’s issues isn’t the same as poor or a black woman’s who also battles racism as well. I’ve never once claimed that only gender is a factor and my analysis is a lot more sophisticated than that.

If a black man analyses race issues, does it mean he doesn’t take into account how classism also oppresses Black people and how rich black men and poor black men have different outlooks and experiences? Of course not. Lol, you’re analysis is every similar to white racism deniers by the way as they disqualify the concept of racism because black people oppress each other and that there are oppressed working class cadaans.

You’re doing the exact same thing and it’s funny to see.



the discussion we are having is very different, Ayaan is a straight gaal and Ilhan advocates for things that violate the deen.

Also, sadly cadaans would not be able to take advantage of that if we as Muslims cleaned up our back garden first. Similarly Westerners would not be able to take advantage of Somalia, if we Somalis cleaned up our back yard. Shutting down this dialogue within the Muslim community with Muslim women who are trying to look at Muslim women’s rights without violating Islamic law is the first place to start, but instead we’re being shut down and nothing is changing when it comes to the plight of some of our women, yet you’re surprised that people can easily use the women issue against the Muslim community. Listen to us because the only way things can improve is through compassion and working together. I also feel the same way about racism with black Muslims and tribalism such as madhibans ect.


Yes, this is something I’ve always noted if you look at my previous posts about the issues of rape we have in Somalia. You’ll find that the biggest victims are indeed Madbhiban women and those from minority tribes.

If women lack protection from the men of their community because those very same men are discriminated against, then their experience will be worse than women with menfolk who are respected.

I’ve always said it, male oppression makes women’s oppression so much worse, hence men too need to uplifted for the women to also be in a better situation. Only focusing on women is detrimental to society as women need men similarly to how men need women.

I’m fully aware of that. Male oppression and female oppression goes hand in hand. Studies show that during war times in which men are being oppressed and killed by other men, women are much more likely to be raped and abused than during times in which men are at peace. We’ve seen this in Somalia during dagaalaha and we’ve seen it in Syria.


They don’t have a shared experience, but you need to understand that historically, despite white privileged women being oppressors and even abusing black people, they too were oppressed in the sense that they were denied education, inheriting houses or education. Things we as Muslims regard as oppressive as women having these rights are God-given. Hence, one can be the oppressor and the oppressed and my analysis takes that into account. Not looking into that shows a lack of critical thinking.

Adoonka, not understanding that the oppressor can be the oppressed will stop you from believing that racism and classism is also a societal issue.

With regards to rape? Many have but you need to understand that looking at statistics that these cases make up less than 3%. It really isn’t as common as actual rape. Rape is a global epidemic. What makes it even more scary is when you take into account the a lot of ME countries and even Somaliland previously acquitted men of rape if they marry their victims. sexism is clearly a societal issue similarly to how racism is a societal issue.

There is no denying that some women slander and they need to be dealt with the full extent of the law and that is an example of female oppression, but using the slander of men to deny the sexism women face is rather a new low don’t you think?

Let me use your logic against you:

Look at how many white people have been mugged and beat by madows. Can we now deny that the world especially some Whites and Arabs have been historically racist towards madows? When talking about black issues can we say we shouldn’t make it ‘race centric’ because some white people are victims?

The framework you talk about is something you’re only adopting when it comes to sexism. If I was soley talking about how racism another ‘ism’ against madows, you wouldn’t be talking the way you’re talking and that is incredibly hypocritical.

Next time we have a discussion about race or tribalism. I want you to be consistent and reprimand me of of being ‘race centric and qabil centric’. When I acknowledge that madhibans have suffered tribalism more, I want to see you reprimand me by reminding me of the suffering of Hawiyes and MJs as well especially during the war.



What’s the benefit of pointing fingers at men when you’re in the same boat?


What benefit does a poor black person have talking about racism when there are poor whites that are also suffering and in the same boat?

If the bit in bold doesn’t make sense to you, then what you wrote also shouldn’t make sense either.


That is a lie. I literally said that I care about issues effecting men like knife crime, poverty ect and I often reply to these threads without hijacking it and throwing tantrums. If a man said that men suffer more from violence crimes at the hands of other men and that men get groomed more when it comes to drug trafficking, does that mean that man doesn’t care or take into account the women who also suffer? Of course not.

Also, you’re lying right now and it’s gross, really gross and it takes away from your points because this isn’t coming from a place of honest discussion. In my last post I’ve talked about how I’m invested in male grooming of young boys to sell stuff, yet this is what you come up?


Nope, because some men oppressing women and getting away with it is a fact of life. Similar to the way some white people being racist is a fact of life or the plight of the poor at the hands of some of the rich.

Women are much more likely to be victims of DV in relationships, much more likely to killed by their partners, much more likely to be forced into marriages, much more likely in conservative societies to be barred from education and financial independence, much more likely to raped and in conservative cultures those issues manifest itself in law and cultural attitudes.

Those are all facts in which you want to brush under the carpet which is to be frank dangerous. if we don’t acknowledge that men and women are more likely to suffer certain things, we will never be able to get to the crux of the issue.

You can understand that men are much more likely to be victims of race or religious profiling or violent crimes with regards to drugs, Islamaphobic laws but you don’t give women the same grace.

Looking at your analogy of racism faced by blacks it’s very flawed in that you’re comparing it based on the basis of race & not gender. Your entire advocacy is based on gender & not on any other criteria.

The similarity you made to racism would’ve made more sense had you compared it to injustice/oppression as a whole but you didn’t. It’s about gender, the equivalent would be to focus on racism faced by black women.

Historically no matter how much white women were oppressed by white men, black women’s oppression & struggle was far worse than that of white women. White women were implicit & responsible either directly or indirectly for the oppression faced by black women.

Black women despite facing sexual oppression had far more in common with their men than with white women. This is why you simply can’t generalise women’s oppression and argue on that basis. For black women racism was far more destructive as it far more negative consequences.

All your examples of using racism fails as it to doesn’t account for gender which is the core of your argument. Furthermore there’s a difference between taking about black issues and racism affecting black people. The former is holistic as it encompasses much more than just racism.

Similarly women’s issues covers more than just sexism, rape etc. Laakin in our discussion you’ve limited issues faced by women to just sexism, dv, rape etc. Racism, poverty, Islamophobia, violence from other women etc none of it was addressed by you. This is my critique of your approach.


Your lack of nuance in the manner that you prioritise which issues of women deserve attention & those that don’t is very problematic as it conflates the experiences of women into a single category of oppression.


You aren’t addressing very important issues that women face all you seem to care about are those that are inflicted by men only why ? Do they affect all women equally and do women rank it as the # 1 injustice that they face on this earth?

Me critiquing your biased approach that lacks objectivity doesn’t equate to me denying the issues women face. I’ve not brushed anything under the carpet merely raised important questions about the universality of that generalisation that you make & whether they apply to every woman equally?

For women who’re starving due to lack of food is the potential of being oppressed by men more important than finding food ? is oppression from men the only injustice that should matter to women? If no when and under which circumstance should they matter ?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@AdoonkaAlle

The irony of your analysis is that by denying that sexism is an issue that mostly impacts women as you mention class, race factors and male oppression and by your inability to understand that an oppressor can also be from an oppressed class, people can easily use your exact same arguments to claim that racism against blacks isn't an issue, tribalism against madhibaans and Bantus isn't an issue and classism against the poor and working class isn't an issue. And Wallahi, i've heard those exact same arguments.

The arguments you employed aren't new, this is something cadaans have used such as talking about black on black crime, the fact that working class white people have historically been looked down upon as well and the fact that there are different types of madows, some being richer and others being poor which adds an added layer of oppression and the fact that some whites have suffered at the hands of black people. You did the exact same thing:

YOUR POINTS to sum up:
-Women on women abuse
-Working class women vs richer women
-Women who oppress men.
-Women having bigger issues due to iman/morals.

As you can see your arguments are identical. Switch women with black or poor. That is the only difference.

An added layer with you is that you use the deen. You said kufr is worse than sexism. That is most definitely true. But ask yourself, how appropriate is it if I a woman from a Landheere qabil said to a midgaan or Bantu, tribalism isn't a major issue as some midgaans follow bid'ah or Kufr ideology. Or that I use 'morals' as a way to not talk about tribalism being a real issue due to issues like Nikko ect. Tbh, that arguement is already used against Somali Bantus. And crazily enough I had a debate with the poster World about that. He also claims that tribalism isn't an issue as some of them have worked with Al Shaytan. The group that have ruined Somalia. You've employed that exact same analysis with women as well. There is nothing sophisticated by your analysis, as that is used by anyone who wants to downplay racism, sexism Or tribalism. Its reductive because let's be real we can have an indepth conversation about bid'ah, morals and the like whilst also looking into tribalism. That is what I found infuriating about your points, because it isn't new and have been used to downplay most oppressions in debates i've had.

Yet, the idea of someone doing that to madhibaan or bantu would probably trouble you I'm guessing, hence why do it to women and even more troubling is your arrogance by behaving as though your argument is more in line with the deen. If I make that argument towards a madow or Madhibaan is that more in line with the deen? Funnily enough, many posters on here actually do, at least they're consistent as they happily employ that analysis towards the poor, minority qabil and gender.

To add, this is why these cadaans will say, 'race centric' analysis is wrong and that a black person shouldn't talk about being mistreated by white people, even historically. They also wrongly accuse any black person who talks about race of hating white people. You did the exact same thing with me. They even mention other examples of white suffering like Irish indentured servants, the fact that in the early 1600s a very small minority of black people had slaves in the Americas as a way to rebuff claims of black oppression. All of that is indeed historically true btw, but I ask you, does that take away the fact that black people have and do suffer racism?

As you can I hope clearly see, their arguements are dumb. A black person can be racist, oppressive and classist. A woman can also be terrible racist, oppressive to men and even use class as a way to oppress. That doesn't take away the reality that in a white persons/man's environment/world, black peoples suffer more from racism.women suffer more from sexism.That doesn't take away from the fact that white people suffer. That doesn't take away from the fact that men suffer. Someone like Kanye a black man but who is millionaire/billionaire clearly has more privileges than a working class white man. Does that mean racism isn't an issue? If you can understand that simple logic, you should be able to extend it to women.

I know these tactics very well, i've debated with people who used this in race/qabil centric debates. Wallahi, i have even had one say that Somali bantus have bigger things to worry about as they're known for doing unacceptable practices as a way to shut down tribalism dialogue. I wasn't born yesterday.

I’ve not once denied that sexism, dv, rape are issues women face what I disagree with are they the ONLY issues that should matter to women ?

You state that black people suffer more from racism & women suffer more from sexism. So what do black women suffer most from racism or sexism ? How do you quantify which is the most severe ?

The example of qabil further reinforces my point to the dot ie women’s injustice is diverse & can’t be reduced to just their gender alone. Bantu & madhibaan women face an added injustice due to their qabil that women from bigger qabils don’t face. Laakin your gender centric advocacy overlooks this important fact.

Tell me which injustice should matter more for madhiban or bantu women discrimination that they face because of their qabil or discrimination against them as women ? How do you determine which to prioritise?

The fact that you don’t grasp this simple reality is beyond problematic as it shows you’ve not evaluated things critically.

 

[Angelina]

Looking at your analogy of racism faced by blacks it’s very flawed in that you’re comparing it based on the basis of race & not gender. Your entire advocacy is based on gender & not on any other criteria.

Race, gender, tribalism, classism are all forms of oppression. Hence it is a valid analogy which you simply want to deny.
Makes perfect sense as you use the literal arguments people make against racism or tribalism claims.

if we both agree that sexism is a form of oppression and that race is a form of oppression and that class is a form of oppression, then comparing the two or three is valid and have been compared by hundreds of sociologists and social commentators.

what is laughable is that throughout you have been comparing gender, race and class as a way to dismiss the gravity of sexism and now you want to deny that we can compare the two?

how hypocritical can you be? Have you really run out of points?

The similarity you made to racism would’ve made more sense had you compared it to injustice/oppression as a whole but you didn’t. It’s about gender, the equivalent would be to focus on racism faced by black women.

I did compare racism to oppression as a whole. I spoke about tribalism, classim, sexism and racism. I compared all four. If you read my post properly you’d know but its becoming obvious that you don’t. I even noted:

you’re accusing me of the exact same thing You wouldn’t accuse a black person focusing on race to not have any nuances because they don’t talk about classism such as poverty would you? Answer that please.

Historically no matter how much white women were oppressed by white men, black women’s oppression & struggle was far worse than that of white women.

Depends on the context. Let’s compare a working class white woman working in a factory in Manchester in the late 1700s to an Ashanti princess or regular black woman back in her home country. Black peoples history is so much more than white slavery. Again, you’re coming up with reductive points walal. Also, you’re forgetting Irish indentured servants ect who were enslaved ect.

White women were implicit & responsible either directly or indirectly for the oppression faced by black women.

Yes, they were. I know this which is why if you bothered to read my analysis. The oppressed can become the oppressor. I’ve spoke about this in detail.

You’re talking about a historical class of women who had less rights than your great great great grandmother. We Muslim women had the right to wealth, buy and sell, inherit houses, have legal rights and represent represent ourselves in front of a Qaadi and ask for Khula.
Walal this is basic history. Up until the 1900s white women had 0 of those rights. How can you sit here and suggest that despite their racism that they were not oppressed?

why is it two or three things cannot co-exist?
I

Black women despite facing sexual oppression had far more in common with their men than with white women.

Black women dealt with racism and sexism. They have the highest rates of domestic violence even to this day and unfortunately, itsook it up. The average black woman suffers more from gendered violence than a white woman.

Actually check up statistics. Your men and you being oppressed doesn’t stop them from going through the trials that some women go through. In most cases it makes it worse. I’ve dedicated a whole paragraph as to how male oppression amplifies female oppression and I know you didn’t bother to read it.

What makes it worse you could argue is that they were often raped by their masters historically, Whilst black men would often be killed and physically harmed more. The sexual abuse that black women endured was very much tied to them also being not just black but women whom they can subject because of the weakened state of their men. Which is why I say, male oppression and female oppression is often interlinked.

All your examples of using racism fails as it to doesn’t account for gender which is the core of your argument. Furthermore there’s a difference between taking about black issues and racism affecting black people. The former is holistic as it encompasses much more than just racism.

When were you accounting for gender when you were comparing issues of race and class as a way to dismiss gender based oppression. So it’s okay for you compare gender to other issues to dismiss sexism, but I can’t use it to dissect your hypocrisy?

Similarly women’s issues covers more than just sexism, rape etc. Laakin in our discussion you’ve limited issues faced by women to just sexism, dv, rape etc. Racism, poverty, Islamophobia, violence from other women etc none of it was addressed by you. This is my critique of your approach.

If you actually ever did a bit of reading or actually listened to women, you’d know that sexism is amplified even more in situations of poverty and racism.
Ive explained pretty clearly that people can be oppressed by different factors. Poverty comes under class which I addressed. I’ve also talked about racism as well.

People can be impacted by a bunch of issues. Also, your point doesn’t make sense. So because a person can be poor, it means sexism isn’t an issue?

Again, you’re going down the exact same lane here. It is literally like me saying because there are white poor people, racism isn’t an issue.

You’re points are wholly reductive as per usual and you don’t see it.

Your lack of nuance in the manner that you prioritise which issues of women deserve attention & those that don’t is very problematic as it conflates the experiences of women into a single category of oppression.

I think between the two of us it is you that lack nuances and it is clear to see:

You are the one that is doing that right now. I’ve acknowledged that there are many factors. You are arguing that because black women suffer from racism, sexism isn’t an issue. Between the two of us who is dismissing different factors? Who is the one that cannot understand that different issues can co-exist?

You aren’t addressing very important issues that women face all you seem to care about are those that are inflicted by men only why ? Do they affect all women equally and do women rank it as the # 1 injustice that they face on this earth?

Who said I don’t address it. My takes on racism and tribalism are all over sspot to such an extent I’ve had arguments with people on here.

You see walal, you simply can’t make a point without lying and twisting that is the crux of the issue as deep down you know you don’t have a leg to stand on.

I’m having a discussion with you about gender. If we were debating about tribalism, would you use it against me because I’ve not spoken about gender or class at length? Do you not see your hypocrisy here?

If a midgaan women complained about tribalism would you tell her that she shouldn’t focus on tribe as she could be oppressed by poverty as well? Can two, three things not co-exist? What is your point?

@AdoonkaAlle I really can’t believe you made the point below. Really goes to show how far removed you are.

For women who’re starving due to lack of food is the potential of being oppressed by men more important than finding food ?

If you knew anything about history or even current affairs, you’d know that those women suffer more from sexism along with poverty obviously much more than richer women as they’re much more likely to be trafficked into prostitution and those women have higher rates of DV. They’re less protected and more likely to come across abusive men. So yes, it is interlinked. Finding food for them could mean being used sexually and beat.

that is why during times of war and during times of food insecurity abuse against women becomes tenfold .

Actually read up on the topic before debating please.

using your logic against you:

‘poor black person, what’s more important, finding food or potential racism.’ Silly take indeed.

is oppression from men the only injustice that should matter to women? If no when and under which circumstance should they matter ?

You’ve seen me at length talk about tribalism, classism and racism and this is your take. Again, it is becoming clear that you either do not read my points, or you’re simply a liar. How many times I have said that male oppression and female oppression is linked. How many times did I say we need to deal with all forms of oppression. Did you not read my whole paragraph that I dedicated to that point in which I spoke about Syria, dagaalaha and Midgaans. Biskina. Authobillah.

 

[Angelina]

I’ve not once denied that sexism, dv, rape are issues women face what I disagree with are they the ONLY issues that should matter to women ?

I’ve never in my life said that they only suffer from that. You’ve been here long enough to see my long posts on tribalism walal. When I talk about tribalism and Bantus ect do you think I’m only talking about men? Really walal ?

You state that black people suffer more from racism & women suffer more from sexism. So what do black women suffer most from racism or sexism ? How do you quantify which is the most severe ?

The sad reality and studies show this is that when women are poor or discriminated against via race, the sexism they endure is amplified due to other factors like poverty and race.

Example, a poor girl is much more likely to be sexually trafficked than a rich girl.

A poor girl in a middle of war and food security is much more likely to suffer from rape as we’ve seen in Syria and during dagaalaha

black women statistically have higher rates of DV and sexual abuse.

That is why I say, my intention isn’t to just focus on female issues. The reality is that womens suffering increases when their male suffer as well. Hence as a community, we need to tackle tribalism, classism and sexism.
We can’t tackle women abuse if the men of their community are so disempowered due to war and poverty that outside men can take advantage of them. All of this is linked and I

The example of qabil further reinforces my point to the dot ie women’s injustice is diverse & can’t be reduced to just their gender alone. Bantu & madhibaan women face an added injustice due to their qabil that women from bigger qabils don’t face. Laakin your gender centric advocacy overlooks this important fact.

I’ve literally spoke about that here mate:

Why do you refuse to read what people say? This isn’t a debate or engagement if you don’t read what I’m saying.

Tell me which injustice should matter more for madhiban or bantu women discrimination that they face because of their qabil or discrimination against them as women ? How do you determine which to prioritise?

I literally spoke about it here Authobillah:

The fact that you don’t grasp this simple reality is beyond problematic as it shows you’ve not evaluated things critically.

You literally don’t read anything I write. You’re asking me questions I’ve literally answered in previous posts and even pondered on in detail which makes it obvious you don’t read to understand but read to debate. You also didn’t answer any of my questions.

 

[Angelina]

@AdoonkaAlle

serious questions:

1. If a poor madhiban woman was talking about how much of an issue tribalism is would you tell her that she can’t focus on tribalism in detail as she suffers from classism/poverty, hence her focusing only on tribalism isn’t nuanced enough?

2. If a rich black man talks about racism, would you tell him that his views shouldn’t be ‘race centric’ as there are working class white men?

3. What is more important for a poor black men, food or potential racism LOOOL. Can I use that when people are being race centric?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I’ve never in my life said that they only suffer from that. You’ve been here long enough to see my long posts on tribalism walal. When I talk about tribalism and Bantus ect do you think I’m only talking about men? Really walal ?


The said reality and studies show this is that when women are poor or discriminated against via race, the sexism they endure is amplified.

Example, a poor girl is much more likely to be sexually trafficked than a rich girl.

A poor girl in a middle of war and food security is much more likely to suffer from rape as we’ve seen in Syria and during dagaalaha

black women statistically have higher rates of DV and sexual abuse.

That is why I say, my intention isn’t to just focus on female issues. The reality is that womens suffering increases when their male suffer as well. Hence as a community, we need to tackle tribalism, classism and sexism.
We can’t tackle women abuse if the men of their community are so disempowered due to war and poverty that outside men can take advantage of them. All of this is linked and I

I’ve literally spoke about that here mate:


View attachment 241697
Why do you refuse to read what people say? This isn’t a debate or engagement if you don’t read what I’m saying.

I literally spoke about it here Authobillah:
View attachment 241698

You literally don’t read anything I write. You’re asking me questions I’ve literally answered in previous posts and even pondered on in detail which makes it obvious you don’t read to understand but read to debate. You also didn’t answer any of my questions.

You’ve not answered the simple questions I asked

1. You stated black people suffer more racism, women suffer more from sexism. Based on the above I asked what black women suffer most from is it racism or sexism ? One is discrimination based on race & the other based on gender, so knowing that i wanted you to give me a reply as to which they should prioritise? Is it racism or sexism ? Does it matter at all ?

2. You acknowledge that madhiban & other women from minority qabils are the biggest victims of rape & their experience is the worst compared to other women from major qabils. With that in mind I asked which injustice should madhiban women prioritise ? is it qabil discrimination or gender discrimination? does it matter at all ?

You didn’t answer what I asked, so I’m asking again for the sake of clarity to get a response to those questions

I never said that you did, what I was questioning was your prioritisation of those issues as you previously only focused on them. It’s the reason why I asked you about kufr & shirk how come you didn’t include them in women’s issue.

This entire time I’ve been questioning your focus on these issues more than anything else as you simply prioritised discrimination & injustice based on gender alone.

It’s only after my criticisms that you start focusing on issues like race & ethnic based discrimination, religious discrimination etc. I know for a fact that you know that these issues exist what I was asking is why didn’t you advocate for them in the same manner as gender discrimination?

 

[Angelina]

You’ve not answered the simple questions I asked

1. You stated black people suffer more racism, women suffer more from sexism. Based on the above I asked what black women suffer most from is it racism or sexism ?

I’ve said that women suffer more from sexism in comparison to men. Not that they suffer more from sexism compared to any other ism or oppression.

What a way to misunderstand someone. How very interesting indeed.

One is discrimination based on race & the other based on gender, so knowing that i wanted you to give me a reply as to which they should prioritise? Is it racism or sexism ? Does it matter at all ?

You have to look at both as their poverty and low tribal status means that they’re much more likely to come across abusive men.

I’ve even told you that poorer women and black women who in many cases happen to also be poor come across higher rates of male violence. Knowing this, how can we take sexism out of the equation, especially when we know they suffer more from male abuse? How can we say, does it matter when their proximity to abuse increases?

Most social commentators link race and class because they know it goes hand in hand. No one will ask which one should be prioritized as it is common knowledge that in many cases the poverty is fueled by racism.

2. You acknowledge that madhiban & other women from minority qabils are the biggest victims of rape & their experience is the worst compared to other women from major qabils. With that in mind I asked which injustice should madhiban women prioritise ?

Both as both oppressions are interlinked and even if their men were to get their freedom and respect, doesn’t mean they won’t face sexism. Women from major tribes still get r-worded back home. In fact, most of the famous cases were of girls from prominent tribes, hence I shudder to think about the unreported ones of girls from minorities. But what is true is that tribalism, racism and classism amplifies it which I said multiple times. You’re making me repeat things.

A perfect example is that black women suffer gender violence more at the hands of their men now compared to cadaan women. They’re much more likely to be murdered by their men. They also have one of the highest rates of other forms of abuse.

Poorer women in certain areas are much more likely to be trafficked. That is clearly a gender based violence amplified by their class status.

So Adoonka, looking at statistics what should black women prioritize or maybe a more normal approach would be to be concerned about both? Sexism is clearly an issue for them and racism is an issue as well.



You didn’t answer what I asked, so I’m asking again for the sake of clarity to get a response to those questions

View attachment 241700

I never said that you did, what I was questioning was your prioritisation of those issues as you previously only focused on them. It’s the reason why I asked you about kufr & shirk how come you didn’t include them in women’s issue.

That is a lie. I literally have threads on here focusing on Somali Bantus in which I don’t talk about the gender issue at all. Hence your comment is utter nonsense and literally reminded me of a thread in which a poster said that tribalism isn’t an issue as we should focus on Somali Bantus shirk. Isn’t the deen a Somali Bantu issue as well? You’re saying the exact same thing. I found that comment ludicrous as I find your one. Next time you talk about tribalism I’ll remind you to talk about shirk and Kufr as well. Or is that a topic point you only bring up when women talk about sexism?

This entire time I’ve been questioning your focus on these issues more than anything else as you simply prioritised discrimination & injustice based on gender alone.

Not true. Right now we’re having a discussion about gender. Next time when we have a thread about tribe, I want to see you accuse me of only focusing on tribalism. Let’s see how consistent you are.

It’s only after my criticisms that you start focusing on issues like race & ethnic based discrimination, religious discrimination etc. I know for a fact that you know that these issues exist what I was asking is why didn’t you advocate for them in the same manner as gender discrimination?

Nope that is a lie. How many threads are there on threads and Somali Bantus? How many times have I been called BLM because I’ve spoken about the abhorrent racism here.

The fact of the matter is that this is a discussion about gender, hence the main topic will be gender. When we are discussing poverty, the main topic will indeed be class and when we’re discussing tribe the main topic will be tribe.

On a serious note, if we’re having a convo about Somali Bantus, are you telling me my post can’t be qabilism centric? Answer that question please.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

@Angelina

Halkas aan dooda ku joojino as I see no benefit in continuing any further.