How is it ‘selective’ when I also talk about male issues? Do you have that attitude when black people talk about race or when working class people talk about class? Why is it only an issue when women talk about sexism?How can it be diversion when I already addressed the attack on the sister's podcast & stated that it was nothing more slander, an attack to discredit them etc.
Even when i'm in agreement with you regarding the attack on the sister's podcast you still claim that i'm belittling their issues simply because i questioned you about your selective prioritisation of women's issues.
No, I find it dismissive that you accuse me of prioritizing women’s issue because I made a remark that it is women that are usually the ones who take the brunt of sexism, similarly it is black people who take the brunt of racism and poor people take the brunt of classism. These are all facts we know of society, yet when women acknowledge this it is an issue for you. There is definitely an element of you wanting to shut down any real meaningful conversation surrounding sexism. If a black person solely talks about racism towards black people in a given scenario, that doesn’t mean that they don’t acknowledge that white people also suffer. You know this, so why does that understanding not also extend to women and gender?Did i ever once question anything about the attack on the sisters ? isn't this not a good example of being dismissive ?
What questionable actions are we talking about here? I have no issue with your criticism of the podcast as you feel that they should try and handle sensitive topics better. That makes sense.Why is it that any time a man asks a question regarding questionable actions, views that women hold the response is to shut down and discredit the man ?
When have I ever said all men are the same. Again, there is a running theme here. When I talk about sexism I talk about it generally. Sexism is a general issue that effects society, racism is a general issue that effects society. Class distinction is a general issue that effects society.are all men the same ? can there ever be a man who has valid criticisms ?
Yet again, you’re making a false statement in which you’re trying to paint me as some sort of man hater for merely acknowledging that sexism mostly impacts women. That is a tactic used by some brothers to try and silence sisters. I don’t believe that is your conscience intentions, but why make such a statement when it isn’t true or here or there.
I never once said men can’t criticize, I never once said all men are the same, yet here again you can’t help but put words in my mouth. Engage with what I say or not at all. Because this isn’t fair whatsoever Wallahi.
Do you have issues with race centric dialogue when addressing racism? Do you have issues with class centric dialogue when addressing class issues? I mean how could you have issues with the topic at hand being being the ‘centric’ issue. Baffling critique there.After addressing the issues i moved on and this is when you quoted my following post
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This is where our disagreement comes in, your insistence on continuation of the gender centric paradigm and my objection to it. The sole reason why i kept on asking why should men prioritise women's issues over their own issues is because this is exactly what gender centric discourses reinforces
So why on earth would you have issues with gender centric conversations when sexism is at play. Men and women are both genders, so of course gender is going to be in the equation. It goes against common sense for you to have issues with conversations surrounding gender when the whole conversation is indeed about gender dynamics. Hence I ask, what is your intentions, to shut down all sorts of dialogue? Because we can’t discuss sexism if it isn’t gender centric as sexism is indeed all about gender. Therefore, my only conclusion is you simply don’t want women to talk about their experiences with how their gender is treated. Classic case of dismissal.
Not once did I say I prioritize women’s rights above all. That is what you keep on saying because you know that is the only stick you can use. I have other interests, there is racism, there is class, there is the factors in life and gender is one of them which you try to shut down.Prioritisation of rights based solely on the basis of gender is very problematic as gender becomes the reference point on how we seek our rights and interact with the opposite sex. If i as a man believe that women are oppressive to me how do you think i will interact with them ?
The bit in bold. Imagine if a black person was talking about racism and you come along and say, you can’t talk about black peoples experience alone because what if a white person feels that they too are oppressed by black people? That sounds very silly because we know that generally speaking although white people can most definitely suffer racism at the hands of black people, it is usually the other way around.
So why insult peoples intelligence? You wouldn’t do it to a working class person, you wouldn’t do it to a person on color, so why women? Especially when we all know generally women suffer from sexism at the hands of women compared to the other way around?
Nope, like I said I have no issues with you criticizing the sisters. You were respectful and honest in your response to them.It's very easy to distinguish between a case of whataboutism and a genuine critique. For example i didn't not shy away from addressing the attack on the sisters, i didn't approve of such actions nor did i deflect by bringing into the discussion the issues of men while i was addressing it. I began speaking about it after finishing addressing the specific case about the sisters.
Not every instance of someone introducing men's or women's issues into a discussion can be labelled as "whataboutism" that's why it's important not to accuse people carelessly. As false accusations of whataboutism can be itself a mechanism of deflecting away valid views, criticisms etc
My issue is that I literally said that sexism in the Muslim community is mostly directed at women and you accused me of being gender centric for literally saying the truth.
Then I asked you if you could give me general example of men in the Muslim community being oppressed by women. Yet you refused to answer.
Having a conversation about the general hostility towards women which you acknowledge is an issue is indeed a gender centric statement. It is ironic that you accuse me of focusing on that when this whole thread was indeed about a bunch of incels who are generally sexist and hostile towards women. That is why we are having this conversation in the first place.I totally understand your point and share your concerns about the general negativity & hostility towards women displayed by some men laakin you need to remember that they don't constitute a majority.
Remember talking about societal sexism doesn’t mean that I believe all men are sexist if I spoke about general issues of class does that mean I think all upper and middle class people look down on the poor? No. If I talk about racism towards certain groups like madows, does it mean that I think all white or Arabs are racist? No of course not. So why have that attitude with women?
What is even more infuriating is that in my posts about sexism, I alway say some.
Anways, I wish you the best. It was an old round interesting conversation and my intention isn’t to attack.
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