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T-M184 Discussion

Question regarding this. The breach of the Marib Dam happened in the 6th century CE. The TMRCA for T-Y44591 is 3000 ybp, about 1000BCE. Unless I'm misunderstanding how TMRCA means, doesn't that mean there's a 1600 year gap in your theory?
The ancient dam of Ma’rib breached more than once. There’s a recorded breach in South Arabian chronicles somewhere around 145 BCE and it wasn’t repaired for some time because of a major war and then there’s the other breach prior to the advent of Islam.

So it’s hard to say when the supposed migration of Y44591 to the Somali peninsula took place and if these migrants were Sabean or Minaean.
 
Dir has its own subclade mutation that is 1900 ybp. Still way off from the dam collapsing tho
I know. So it appears that the T-Y44591 ancestor of Somalis arrived in the horn anywhere from 2000-3000 ybp. Still much earlier than the Marib Dam collapse. So why happened in that time period. Something else must've been the cause for their migration.

It would be really cool if a Somali J-haplogroup carrier did the yFull test to check if they also arrived within the same time period.
 
I know. So it appears that the T-Y44591 ancestor of Somalis arrived in the horn anywhere from 2000-3000 ybp. Still much earlier than the Marib Dam collapse. So why happened in that time period. Something else must've been the cause for their migration.

It would be really cool if a Somali J-haplogroup carrier did the yFull test to check if they also arrived within the same time period.
2000 years ago there was an increase in humidity in the region. Not sure how it would have affected Yemen.

But similar to the T1a TMRCA, Yemenis populates the socotra islands (2000ybp) at the same time. So something climate related cause the migration of T into Somalis.
 
I know. So it appears that the T-Y44591 ancestor of Somalis arrived in the horn anywhere from 2000-3000 ybp. Still much earlier than the Marib Dam collapse. So why happened in that time period. Something else must've been the cause for their migration.

It would be really cool if a Somali J-haplogroup carrier did the yFull test to check if they also arrived within the same time period.
I think the first recorded collapse fits the time frame but the Y45591 could’ve arrived with an earlier migration also, perhaps the Minaeans, who were known seafaring people and they established colonies in Hejaz coast where the Saudi Y45591 is from.
 
I think the first recorded collapse fits the time frame but the Y45591 could’ve arrived with an earlier migration also, perhaps the Minaeans, who were known seafaring people and they established colonies in Hejaz coast where the Saudi Y45591 is from.
Makes sense. I believe you said the Nexus point for T-Y44591 in the Horn was on the Red Sea coast, probably Eritrea/Djibouti area.



Arabia 200BCE
 

Timo Jareer and proud

ሰላም በእናንተ ላይ ይሁን
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Lol no. We Wuz Minaeans... possibly, maybe. :kanyeshrug:

The old Christian/Jewish and Sabean archeological findings has changed my mind. I just think further genetic studies are needed, especially of the J1 Somalis and the Yibir population in Somaliland.
I got 2 Yibir guys I know, I can get them to do a 23andme.
 

Medulla

Qabiil Fluid.
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This whole thread might as well be in af gibberish cause I don't get any of it. Every time I think I get it the next comment throws me for a loop

:mjlaugh:

For the gene people if I was to have taken a test and it said I was " E-M123" would that make me Somali or something else ? If this person claimed to be Somali would this prove that in fact they aren't Somali at all?
 

Timo Jareer and proud

ሰላም በእናንተ ላይ ይሁን
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This whole thread might as well be in af gibberish cause I don't get any of it. Every time I think I get it the next comment throws me for a loop

:mjlaugh:

For the gene people if I was to have taken a test and it said I was " E-M123" would that make me Somali or something else ? If this person claimed Somali would this prove that in fact they aren't Somali at all?
My guy you're a fuqing Jew nani
 

Medulla

Qabiil Fluid.
VIP
My guy you're a fuqing Jew nani
Is that even possible? Can't Somali's have this haplogroup wouldn't this be normal if they are Somali but have mixed with someone else two generations back or something? Like Syrians in Brazil or chinese in mexico wouldn't this explain a anomaly like this?
 

Timo Jareer and proud

ሰላም በእናንተ ላይ ይሁን
VIP
Is that even possible? Can't Somali's have this haplogroup wouldn't this be normal if they are Somali but have mixed with someone else two generations back or something? Like Syrians in Brazil or chinese in mexico wouldn't this explain a anomaly like this?
You share paternal ancestors with European Jews, including Adolf Hitler. It's debated rather or not E-M123 originated in the horn or the middle east. Either way, you're brothers with jews lol.
 
I don’t think T-Y44591 is Arabian at all.

It so far has a demographic expansion exactly like R-Y8452 - a non-Afroasiatic branch (R-Y7771) and a Semitic branch, with respective Jewish specific (R-FGC20980) and Arab subclades.

The Somali Y44591 ancestor is already bound to head to a period o civilizations. It better matches matches the Ethiosemitic entrance into Northeast Africa. It also post dates the camel in the Horn of Africa. But if Habeshas don’t carry it - and it’s near non-existence especially outside Arabia, I doubt it has anything to do with Ethiosemites. I am very certain if we have a Rendille T-M70 year, they will increase the mrca by a couple hundred years, and up to several thousand.

It is very useless to use Arab matches as evidence of a non-Cushitic origin - every Somali subclade will have Arabs, like the Hawiye V32 guys are sharing with an Arab tribe from Yemen (Hubaysh). Clearly however the subclade is Somali.

If the ydna is

1) too localized

2) lacks a wide ethnic distribution and regional character

It can be ruled out as having a Eurasian origin.

If it is indeed Semitic, with its age we would expected for the largest demographic testers on ftdna (Jews and peninsular Arabs) to have shown up. Arabs are enriched for all ydna in Africa, even super rare African ydna like E-V16 and some unknown Central African HG ydna. If it is truly not from Africa - you need a wide ethnic distribution otherwise. And Y44591 does not have that - Z19971 does.

Statistically it is very unlikely Y44591 to be from Eurasia as it stands. Especially without the T-L208 Southeast Africans with Cushitic ancestry like the Karamoja Nilote and Iraqws and Bantus untested. The Arsi Oromo and other Ethiopian T-M70 heavily belong to young Semitic and West Asian subclades - not shocking because Arsi Oromos have a lot of J-P58 and even J2-M172, and very little T-M70. The Saho subclade is hard to make sense of, but does nothing to really dismiss the case at hand. Sahos and Afars have a lot of Ethiosemitic ancestry and have many clans with various P56 and P58 subclades.

Somali J guys also belong to a major Khawlan branch that they share with the other sibling clade housing a Ma’rib Khawlan tribe. The Somali-Khawlan mrca is way too young to be from classical pre-Arab South Arabia, it almost certainly comes from some Khawlan Arab that came to the Horn recently.

On Sahra and Afars - Afars from within the Afar region less than 100 miles from Djibouti are around 25% J-M304, and they are very similar to Amharas and Habeshas ydna-wise, the major difference is really just founder-effected for specific E-V6 and E-V22 and because of this have less E-M34 and E-V42. These Afars lack much T (around 5%) and have much more A3b2 (more than 10%) - so Afars in Djibouti must have gotten a lot of their T from Somalis, which is why they are so close.

Arab Y17859 also come from a diversity of clans - some are Hubaysh, others have a surname Badawi (Bedouin), an unidentified guy from Tripolitania, and Yemenis. So some few Arab guys from Bani Malik doesn’t mean anything - otherwise we have an easier case for E-Y17859 being Arabian.

The Garhajis T-FGC92488 subclade and the Dir T-BY181210* are past 1600 and now have an mrca of 1900 years. I know there is a Habr Gidir T-L208 aside from the Djibouti Hawiye T-L208, because of this I think T-BY18210 Somali ancestor will go further back and soon E-Y17859 and T-BY181210 will have similar mrca - since they already have identical similar formation dates.
 

Timo Jareer and proud

ሰላም በእናንተ ላይ ይሁን
VIP
I don’t think T-Y44591 is Arabian at all.

It so far has a demographic expansion exactly like R-Y8452 - a non-Afroasiatic branch (R-Y7771) and a Semitic branch, with respective Jewish specific (R-FGC20980) and Arab subclades.

The Somali Y44591 ancestor is already bound to head to a period o civilizations. It better matches matches the Ethiosemitic entrance into Northeast Africa. It also post dates the camel in the Horn of Africa. But if Habeshas don’t carry it - and it’s near non-existence especially outside Arabia, I doubt it has anything to do with Ethiosemites. I am very certain if we have a Rendille T-M70 year, they will increase the mrca by a couple hundred years, and up to several thousand.

It is very useless to use Arab matches as evidence of a non-Cushitic origin - every Somali subclade will have Arabs, like the Hawiye V32 guys are sharing with an Arab tribe from Yemen (Hubaysh). Clearly however the subclade is Somali.

If the ydna is

1) too localized

2) lacks a wide ethnic distribution and regional character

It can be ruled out as having a Eurasian origin.

If it is indeed Semitic, with its age we would expected for the largest demographic testers on ftdna (Jews and peninsular Arabs) to have shown up. Arabs are enriched for all ydna in Africa, even super rare African ydna like E-V16 and some unknown Central African HG ydna. If it is truly not from Africa - you need a wide ethnic distribution otherwise. And Y44591 does not have that - Z19971 does.

Statistically it is very unlikely Y44591 to be from Eurasia as it stands. Especially without the T-L208 Southeast Africans with Cushitic ancestry like the Karamoja Nilote and Iraqws and Bantus untested. The Arsi Oromo and other Ethiopian T-M70 heavily belong to young Semitic and West Asian subclades - not shocking because Arsi Oromos have a lot of J-P58 and even J2-M172, and very little T-M70. The Saho subclade is hard to make sense of, but does nothing to really dismiss the case at hand. Sahos and Afars have a lot of Ethiosemitic ancestry and have many clans with various P56 and P58 subclades.

Somali J guys also belong to a major Khawlan branch that they share with the other sibling clade housing a Ma’rib Khawlan tribe. The Somali-Khawlan mrca is way too young to be from classical pre-Arab South Arabia, it almost certainly comes from some Khawlan Arab that came to the Horn recently.

On Sahra and Afars - Afars from within the Afar region less than 100 miles from Djibouti are around 25% J-M304, and they are very similar to Amharas and Habeshas ydna-wise, the major difference is really just founder-effected for specific E-V6 and E-V22 and because of this have less E-M34 and E-V42. These Afars lack much T (around 5%) and have much more A3b2 (more than 10%) - so Afars in Djibouti must have gotten a lot of their T from Somalis, which is why they are so close.

Arab Y17859 also come from a diversity of clans - some are Hubaysh, others have a surname Badawi (Bedouin), an unidentified guy from Tripolitania, and Yemenis. So some few Arab guys from Bani Malik doesn’t mean anything - otherwise we have an easier case for E-Y17859 being Arabian.

The Garhajis T-FGC92488 subclade and the Dir T-BY181210* are past 1600 and now have an mrca of 1900 years. I know there is a Habr Gidir T-L208 aside from the Djibouti Hawiye T-L208, because of this I think T-BY18210 Somali ancestor will go further back and soon E-Y17859 and T-BY181210 will have similar mrca - since they already have identical similar formation dates.
Its looking like it came from Eurasia now. We don't need Rendille to be tested to prove anything. If we get a Yibir results carrying T-Y44591, it seals the case.
 
Its looking like it came from Eurasia now. We don't need Rendille to be tested to prove anything. If we get a Yibir results carrying T-Y44591, it seals the case.
The localized nature in Eurasia of Y44591 makes this very unlikely if we are being honest. It doesn’t even look Semitic.

It has a distribution similar to E-Y17859 in Eurasia - very patchy localized founder effects throughout Arabia but not found in other Semitic groups and most importantly Jews.

The day I see an Iranian Jewish, Assyrian, and Italian T-Y44591 is when a Eurasian origin becomes very likely - and despite over testing, we don’t have any any of these samples despite very large testing in all concerned groups.

Again - statistically a Eurasian origin is very unlikely. Where are all these Y44591 men hiding in Eurasia if it is truly Eurasian?

Yibir = Hebrew is most likely a recently concocted myth. Yibir themselves do not claim a Hebrew origin - they claim Arab origins. Just ask them. The Jewish thing is not accepted by them and they usually see it as a slur. I only saw them claim it when they want to benefit from claiming Jewish, like some Eelay who some Somalis say have a Hebrew origin. Somalis use Jewish origin as a slur against outcaste groups which they never originally claimed and is probably an Islamic era phenomenon.

Which is why you should stop with all the pseudo-history and naive trust of Somali folklore. Literally everything we claimed about our origins and the origins of the clans has been destroyed by genetics.

I do not think the Yibir are any different. If they did have Jewish or foreign origins, we would probably have had some weird ydna that seeps into regular Somali clans that we would have noticed. We should get some tested just to see.
 
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