Somalia's paleolithic hunter-gatherers

[land owner]

There are at least three extant Somali Paleo groups: the Aweer/Boni, the Eyle and the reer Manyo. Some of the af Helledi speakers may constitute a fourth group, and there may be others. The Boni-Aweer are related to the Hadza and Sandawe, who are unquestionably Khoisan.

.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aweer_people

"Evidence suggests that the Aweer/Boni, along with the related Dahalo and Wata, are remnants of the early Bushman hunter-gatherer inhabitants of Eastern Africa. According to linguistic, anthropological and other data, these groups later came under the influence and adopted the Afro-Asiatic languages of the Eastern and Southern Cushitic peoples who moved into the area. Dahalo has consequently retained some of the characteristic click sounds of the Khoisan languages.[2]"

They have been driven south, but there are still some in Somalia:

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=The+Aweer/Boni+of+Somalia?&fr=yhs-iba-1&hspart=iba&hsimp=yhs-1&imgurl=https://www.aberfoylesecurity.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Lamu-Aweer-Map.png#id=6&iurl=https://www.aberfoylesecurity.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Lamu-Aweer-Map.png&action=click

https://drum.lib.umd.edu/handle/1903/11443

Page 122:

"Besides the Boni and Sengwer, all current East African hunter-gatherers share common haplotypes (mtDNA L4, L3a, L0d3 and Y chromosome B2a and B2b), suggesting that the current East African hunter-gatherers might represent remnants of the previous pre-Holocene and early Holocene population in the region. The Boni and the Sengwer appear to have had substantial levels of gene flow from other neighboring populations that appear to have the hunter-gatherer “genetic signature”. In fact, the Orma and Kalenjin populations that neighbor the Boni and the Sengwer, respectively, carry hunter-gatherer haplotypes at moderate frequencies indicating possible “reverse” gene flow."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_B-M60

"B-M112[edit]B-M112 (M112, M192, 50f2(P)) has been found mainly among pygmy populations in Central Africa, Juu (Northern Khoisan) populations in Southern Africa, and the Hadzabe in East Africa. It also has been found occasionally in samples of groups who neighbor the aforementioned populations.

Specifically, haplogroup B2b has been observed in 67% (12/18) of a sample of Baka from Central African Republic,[2] 52% (12/23) or 51% (29/57) of a sample of Hadzabe from Tanzania,[3][4] 48% (15/31) of a sample of Biaka from Central African Republic,[2] 43% (20/47) of a sample of Mbuti from the Democratic Republic of the Congo,[2] 31% (9/29) of a sample of Tsumkwe San from Namibia,[2] 28% (11/39) of a sample of the Northern Khoisan-speaking Ju|’hoansi and Sekele peoples,[3][7] 25% (6/24) of a sample of Burunge from Tanzania,[4] 14% (13/94) of a sample of Tutsi from Rwanda,[9] 13% (9/68) of a sample of Sandawe from Tanzania,[4] 9% (3/32) of a sample of !Kung/Sekele from Namibia,[2] 5% (1/20) of a sample of Turu from Tanzania,[4] 5% (2/43) of a sample of Wairak from Tanzania,[9]3% (1/29) of a sample of Zulu from South Africa,[2] 3% (1/33) of a sample of Bakola from southern Cameroon,[2] 3% (1/35) of a sample of Datog from Tanzania,[4] 3% (1/35) of a sample of Malagasy,[12] 1.4% (1/69) of a sample of **** from Rwanda,[9] 1.4% (1/72) of a sample from Qatar,[15] and 1.3% (2/157) of a sample from Saudi Arabia.[16]"

The aweer/boni and the eyle are autosomally mixed with somali bantus and ethnic Somalis, they more than likely picked up those hunter gatherer haplogroups from their bantu ancestors from Tanzania who absorbed the sandawe and hazda hunter gatherers

 

[Apollo]

The aweer/boni and the eyle are autosomally mixed with somali bantus and ethnic Somalis, they more than likely picked up those hunter gatherer haplogroups from their bantu ancestors from Tanzania who absorbed the sandawe and hazda hunter gatherers

These guys have more Bantu ancestry than Paleo-Somali hunter-gatherer ancestry.

Also, the Paleo-Somali paternal haplogroup was E1b1b2 (E-V16/E-M281), not fucking B2b which is likely from Tanzania/Swahilis and not native to Somalia.

Grant is an idiot and knows next to anothing about African genetics, just a few months ago I had to explain to him that haplogroup A can also be Nilotic and isn't always Khoisan.

 

[land owner]

These guys have more Bantu ancestry than Paleo-Somali hunter-gatherer ancestry.

Also, the Paleo-Somali paternal haplogroup was E1b1b2 (E-V16/E-M281), not fucking B2b which is likely from Tanzania/Swahilis and not native to Somalia.

Grant is an idiot and knows next to anothing about African genetics, just a few months ago I had to explain to him that haplogroup A can also be Nilotic and isn't always Khoisan.

 

[Apollo]

Khoisans never lived in Somalia. The Paleo-Somalis were comprised of mtDNA L6, L4 and L3 (L3a, L3x, L3i, L3h) and paternally E (E-V16/E-M281).

While the True Khoisan are largely of mtDNA L0 (especially L0d, L0k) and A (excluding A-M13).

They split from each other over 100,000 years ago and the Paleo-Horners were closer to Eurasians/the Out-of-Africa peoples than to the Khoisan.

The Sandawe and Hadza have some true Khoisan admixture (L0d), but this lineage is never found in Somalis & Ethiopians and likely wasn't part of the Paleo-Horner ancestry.

 

[land owner]

Khoisans never lived in Somalia. The Paleo-Somalis were comprised of mtDNA L6, L4 and L3 (L3a, L3x, L3i, L3h) and paternally E (E-V16/E-M281).

While the True Khoisan are largely of mtDNA L0 (especially L0d, L0k) and A (excluding A-M13).

They split from each other over 100,000 years ago and the Paleo-Horners were closer to Eurasians/the Out-of-Africa peoples than to the Khoisan.

The Sandawe and Hadza have some true Khoisan admixture (L0d), but this lineage is never found in Somalis & Ethiopians and likely wasn't part of the Paleo-Horner ancestry.

Nice so the paleo horners split from a very ancient african population that birthed all of humanity?

 

[Apollo]

Nice so the paleo horners split from a very ancient african population that birthed all of humanity?

Yep, they are the Africans closest to Eurasians.

Possibly the Ancestral North Africans (ANA) may have been a bit closer, but so far no pure ANA sample has been studied or discovered. For that, they need to test a Paleo North African from between 40,000 and 30,000 years ago before M1 and U6 back-migrated to North Africa from Southwest Eurasia giving rise to a mixed ANA-Eurasian group like the Taforalt.

 

[land owner]

Yep, they are the Africans closest to Eurasians.

Possibly the Ancestral North Africans (ANA) may have been a bit closer, but so far no pure ANA sample has been studied or discovered. For that, they need to test a Paleo North African from between 40,000 and 30,000 years ago before M1 and U6 back-migrated to North Africa from Southwest Eurasia giving rise to a mixed ANA-Eurasian group like to Taforalt.

How long have they inhabited somalia and what part of east africa did they originate prior to their arrival to somalia?

 

[Apollo]

How long have they inhabited somalia and what part of east africa did they originate prior to their arrival to somalia?

I'm not too sure, but from the looks of it basically since forever.

 

[land owner]

I'm not too sure, but from the looks of it basically since forever.

Do you think that there’s a possibility that humanity started in somalia?

 

[Grant]

Khoisans never lived in Somalia. The Paleo-Somalis were comprised of mtDNA L6, L4 and L3 (L3a, L3x, L3i, L3h) and paternally E (E-V16/E-M281).

While the True Khoisan are largely of mtDNA L0 (especially L0d, L0k) and A (excluding A-M13).

They split from each other over 100,000 years ago and the Paleo-Horners were closer to Eurasians/the Out-of-Africa peoples than to the Khoisan.

The Sandawe and Hadza have some true Khoisan admixture (L0d), but this lineage is never found in Somalis & Ethiopians and likely wasn't part of the Paleo-Horner ancestry.

There are San, and there are Khoi, and then there are other Hunter-Gatherer groups which get lumped as "Khoisan". "A" and "B" both fall in this group, as does E-3bif (E-3b1-M35), which
moved to South Africa only 2000 Kya. For a long time they were all the men there were, and they certainly got far enough north to leave Africa, presumably across the Bab al Mandeb.

https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693

------------------------------------------------------

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/bydna/about/background

'Haplogroup B is an ancient Y chromosome clade that is almost entirely restricted to Africa. It is the second oldest clade after A, and it is spread very thinly throughout the continent. Today, the highest frequencies of B are found among small hunter-gather populations, and very rarely among populations of African descent outside of Africa. Clues about their ancient origins are also suggested by the fact that some members of clades A and B possess click languages, which some anthropologists argue is a remnant of the oldest form of spoken language, belonging, perhaps, to all of our ancestors before their migration out of Africa."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_B-M60

Haplogroup B (B-M60) is a human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup common to paternal lineages in Africa. It is a primary branch of the haplogroup BT.

B-M60 is common in parts of Africa, especially the tropical forests of West-Central Africa. It was the ancestral haplogroup of not only modern Pygmies like the Baka and Mbuti, but also Hadzabe from Tanzania, who often have been considered, in large part because of some typological features of their language, to be a remnant of Khoisan people in East Africa.

B-M112[edit]
Haplogroup B-M112 (M112, M192, 50f2(P)) has been found mainly among pygmy populations in Central Africa, Juu (Northern Khoisan) populations in Southern Africa, and the Hadzabe in East Africa. It also has been found occasionally in samples of groups who neighbor the aforementioned populations.

Specifically, haplogroup B2b has been observed in 67% (12/18) of a sample of Baka from Central African Republic,[2] 52% (12/23) or 51% (29/57) of a sample of Hadzabe from Tanzania,[3][4] 48% (15/31) of a sample of Biaka from Central African Republic,[2] 43% (20/47) of a sample of Mbuti from the Democratic Republic of the Congo,[2] 31% (9/29) of a sample of Tsumkwe San from Namibia,[2] 28% (11/39) of a sample of the Northern Khoisan-speaking Ju|’hoansi and Sekele peoples,[3][7] 25% (6/24) of a sample of Burunge from Tanzania,[4] 14% (13/94) of a sample of Tutsi from Rwanda,[9] 13% (9/68) of a sample of Sandawe from Tanzania,[4] 9% (3/32) of a sample of !Kung/Sekele from Namibia,[2] 5% (1/20) of a sample of Turu from Tanzania,[4] 5% (2/43) of a sample of Wairak from Tanzania,[9]3% (1/29) of a sample of Zulu from South Africa,[2] 3% (1/33) of a sample of Bakola from southern Cameroon,[2] 3% (1/35) of a sample of Datog from Tanzania,[4] 3% (1/35) of a sample of Malagasy,[12] 1.4% (1/69) of a sample of Hutu from Rwanda,[9] 1.4% (1/72) of a sample from Qatar,[15] and 1.3% (2/157) of a sample from Saudi Arabia.[16]

 

[Apollo]

There are San, and there are Khoi, and then there are other Hunter-Gatherer groups which get lumped as "Khoisan". "A" and "B" both fall in this group, as does E-3bif (E-3b1-M35), which

Spoiler: For Grant

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A in Sudan and Ethiopia is largely of Nilotic origin of the A-M13 subclade. It is not Khoisan and split from them over 50,000 years.

As for the E-M35 found in the South Khoisan. It is not truly Khoisan, it spread to them only within the past 4,000 years. E-M293 which is South Cushitic and ultimately Cushitic.

A (excluding A-M13) is the True Khoisan paternal lineage. B is Paleo-Central African, E is Paleo-East African.

 

[The alchemist]

There are San, and there are Khoi, and then there are other Hunter-Gatherer groups which get lumped as "Khoisan". "A" and "B" both fall in this group, as does E-3bif (E-3b1-M35), which
moved to South Africa only 2000 Kya. For a long time they were all the men there were, and they certainly got far enough north to leave Africa, presumably across the Bab al Mandeb.

https://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693

------------------------------------------------------

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/bydna/about/background

'Haplogroup B is an ancient Y chromosome clade that is almost entirely restricted to Africa. It is the second oldest clade after A, and it is spread very thinly throughout the continent. Today, the highest frequencies of B are found among small hunter-gather populations, and very rarely among populations of African descent outside of Africa. Clues about their ancient origins are also suggested by the fact that some members of clades A and B possess click languages, which some anthropologists argue is a remnant of the oldest form of spoken language, belonging, perhaps, to all of our ancestors before their migration out of Africa."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_B-M60

Haplogroup B (B-M60) is a human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup common to paternal lineages in Africa. It is a primary branch of the haplogroup BT.

B-M60 is common in parts of Africa, especially the tropical forests of West-Central Africa. It was the ancestral haplogroup of not only modern Pygmies like the Baka and Mbuti, but also Hadzabe from Tanzania, who often have been considered, in large part because of some typological features of their language, to be a remnant of Khoisan people in East Africa.

B-M112[edit]
Haplogroup B-M112 (M112, M192, 50f2(P)) has been found mainly among pygmy populations in Central Africa, Juu (Northern Khoisan) populations in Southern Africa, and the Hadzabe in East Africa. It also has been found occasionally in samples of groups who neighbor the aforementioned populations.

Specifically, haplogroup B2b has been observed in 67% (12/18) of a sample of Baka from Central African Republic,[2] 52% (12/23) or 51% (29/57) of a sample of Hadzabe from Tanzania,[3][4] 48% (15/31) of a sample of Biaka from Central African Republic,[2] 43% (20/47) of a sample of Mbuti from the Democratic Republic of the Congo,[2] 31% (9/29) of a sample of Tsumkwe San from Namibia,[2] 28% (11/39) of a sample of the Northern Khoisan-speaking Ju|’hoansi and Sekele peoples,[3][7] 25% (6/24) of a sample of Burunge from Tanzania,[4] 14% (13/94) of a sample of Tutsi from Rwanda,[9] 13% (9/68) of a sample of Sandawe from Tanzania,[4] 9% (3/32) of a sample of !Kung/Sekele from Namibia,[2] 5% (1/20) of a sample of Turu from Tanzania,[4] 5% (2/43) of a sample of Wairak from Tanzania,[9]3% (1/29) of a sample of Zulu from South Africa,[2] 3% (1/33) of a sample of Bakola from southern Cameroon,[2] 3% (1/35) of a sample of Datog from Tanzania,[4] 3% (1/35) of a sample of Malagasy,[12] 1.4% (1/69) of a sample of **** from Rwanda,[9] 1.4% (1/72) of a sample from Qatar,[15] and 1.3% (2/157) of a sample from Saudi Arabia.[16]

The proto Afro-Asiatic language went through a process of glottochronology. Prominent linguists believe that most ancient languages had more complex consonant systems.

 

[Grant]

Spoiler: For Grant

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A in Sudan and Ethiopia is largely of Nilotic origin of the A-M13 subclade. It is not Khoisan and split from them over 50,000 years.

As for the E-M35 found in the South Khoisan. It is not truly Khoisan, it spread to them only within the past 4,000 years. E-M293 which is South Cushitic and ultimately Cushitic.

A (excluding A-M13) is the True Khoisan paternal lineage. B is Paleo-Central African, E is Paleo-East African.

Dude,

"A", "B" and "E" came one from the other, and in general usage do get combined under the term 'Khoisan" if they are hunter-gatherers. The Khoi and the San are actually utterly different peoples. The varieties merely reflect the vast expanse this group once covered. What you are using is a professional jargon and not standard usage..

I am E1b1b1c1a. This means I have Natufian ancestors, not that I am ultimately Cushitic.

As you said, there are two E-V1515 subhaplogroups. The one in Somalia, southern Ethiopia and northern Kenya is E-V1486. Further south, in southern Kenya and southern Africa it is E-M293. They are not the same. The authors propose that a population in Eritrea or the northern Sudan split about 10 Kya, one part moving south to the Ethiopian highlands and Turkana basin before 4 Kya, and then thrusting towards South Africa after 3 Kya.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...migration_through_Tanzania_to_southern_Africa

Also as you said, "Because M35* is a paraphyletic haplogroup, the sharing of M35* does not indicate a close genetic relationship. . M293 is only found in sub-Saharan
Africa, indicating a separate phylogenetic history for M35*(former) samples further north" The Southern Cushites would already have been in Tanzania when the Khoe came through. There would not have been a lot of time for cohabitation or marriage proposals, especially as these were exactly the kind of people the Khoe were moving south to avoid, and they had herds to move. The Southern Cushites are still in Tanzania. They did not join the trip to SA.

Some form of Khoisan left Africa 60 or so Kya, probably first over the Bab al Mandeb, so we know they were at the north coast.. For all we know, the Khoe could have gone all the way to the Levant and back. Certainly their sheep and goats came from there and they could also have acquired "E", YAP, Neanderthal, etc, which they have.

That most of the "A" in Sudan is Nilotic is not an issue. The Ethiopians and Khoisan share the deepest clades of the Human Y-cromosome phylogeny. They go together way back. They even share the "archaic" haplotype 1A! At 10 Kya they were probably quite cozy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384897/

I don't think your Cushitic admixture theory has the right timing or strength. Just how does a relatively short migration span start Cushitic and end Khoisan? The numbers do not add up.

 

[Apollo]

The original Cushitic population had several paternal haplogroups, not just one. E-V1515 sub-variants like E-M293 are of Cushitic origin not Khoisan. This is beyond stupid. It originated around the Red Sea and was spread southwards with the Pastoral Neolithic.

The True Khoisan were restricted to far Southern Africa and had nothing to do with the paleolithic inhabitants of the Horn. Only between the two groups like in Ancient Malawi and Ancient Tanzania was there a transition zone between them and Paleo-East Africans. Not in the Horn.

 

[Grant]

The original Cushitic population had several paternal haplogroups, not just one. E-V1515 sub-variants like E-M293 are of Cushitic origin not Khoisan. This is beyond stupid. It originated around the Red Sea and was spread southwards with the Pastoral Neolithic.

The True Khoisan were restricted to far Southern Africa and had nothing to do with the paleolithic inhabitants of the Horn. Only between the two groups like in Ancient Malawi and Ancient Tanzania was there a transition zone between them and Paleo-East Africans. Not in the Horn.

The true Khoisan, in your terminology, are the San, so of course they don't get out of SA.

You seem to have missed the points that the Khoisan ( the standard definition) were also in Ethiopia and at the north coast.

I tried to leave you enough links to read...

 

[Apollo]

The true Khoisan, in your terminology, are the San, so of course they don't get out of SA.

You seem to have missed the points that the Khoisan ( the standard definition) were also in Ethiopia and at the north coast.

I tried to leave you enough links to read...

The label is wrong and should not be used to populations outside of the true Khoisan (Khoi and San). The rest are just other things.

Hunter-gatherer does not equal Khoisan.

 

[Grant]

The label is wrong and should not be used to populations outside of the true Khoisan (Khoi and San). The rest are just other things.

Hunter-gatherer does not equal Khoisan.

You may want to read up on usage, as opposed to genetic relationship. There are many Khoisan languages, which include Hazda and Sandawe, even though they are neither Khoe nor San. There are also the Tuu, the Kx'a, the Ju, the !xoo, and the Nama.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoisan_languages

 

[Grant]

The proto Afro-Asiatic language went through a process of glottochronology. Prominent linguists believe that most ancient languages had more complex consonant systems.

Thank you for posting this. Christopher Ehret is the guy Apollo thinks is so terribly outdated. He's the one that says: "The evidence both from Dahalo and from proto-Southern Cushitic support the conclusion that the pre-Dahalo food-collectors of the regions between the Jubba and Tana Rivers spoke a language or languages of the khoisan family." ( note 9 in Ali Jimale Ahmed)