Somali connection to Madagascar?

[Grant]

All I'm reading is incoherent rambling instead of actually proof of foreign settlement in Berbera.


Cushitic is a fucking linguistic group. Dir can be whatever haplogroup, but they are Somali, speak Somali and therefore Cushitic. Like I've told you before, no population only consists of one haplogroup. Even the most homogenous people like the Nords and the Japanese have a much more varied haplogroup background than Somalis even. There are goddamn Norwegians with E1b1b1 and J, yet if you as a foreigner tried to go there and say they are different people you'd be mocked, because they all look fucking identical with the same damn culture and same main but diverse language (because they live in not too densely in a land that stretches far in atleast two directions). Same goes for Somalis.


Again, stop rambling and give me proof of foreign settlement in Berbera.


I've asked for proof of every thing you've claimed in this thread, and I have provided my own in my rebuttals to your posts. Either stop making all these claims without evidence or provide it. And don't give me stuff that is completely unrelated to what you were claiming!

Dito. We are talking past each other.

I will let others deal with the migratory implications of E1b1b , T and J. since you don't follow my rambling. I am not discussing the present population of Somalia, where the government has long claimed a homogeneous population for what I see as purely political reasons not vested in reality. Of course, all populations do have heterogeneous elements, but that ideally should not disqualify the minorities politically, which is where I think we really part company.

Cushitic is a general term referring back to Kush, in the Sudan. It is both ethnic and linguistic.

http://www.crystalinks.com/nubia.html

Somalis have very high levels of M215 and M35, mostly 60 to 100% of the test group, depending on area. Notice the migration pattern out of the nexus of V12/V32 and M215/M35 on this map, right at the Kerman-Meroe area of Kush. If you check the Cushitic settlements in Ethiopia you will see they are also on this route. The vast majority of the Cushitic languages are now in the southern highlands of Ethiopia, so I don't understand an early Cushitic connection to the northern Somali coast or Yemen. If you wish to take this on, please do so with something more recent than 1984 and link it so I can go back to the original..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-M215_(Y-DNA)

 

[TheSayid]

Bantu is a linguistic determination that does not imply a particular ethnicity. The Bantu-related languages and culture spread in what is called "The Bantu Expansion", which reached parts of Uganda and Kenya, but reached the most southern coastal part of Somalia only in it's Swahili form. The pre-Cushitic tribes were not Bantu and probably not all of the same ethnicity. The Madow groups that I know of that were not Bantu include the Gabaweyn, the Shabelli, the Makanne and the Shidle. The Eyle and other af Helledi speakers among the Reewin probably have a different pre-Cushitic origin.

It is a sad, sad thing that the pre-Cushitic non-Bantu have become confused with the genuinely Bantu Gosha and Mushunguli, who are post-Cushitic and present only after about 1825. The non-Samaale groups, as of 1977, are in pink on this map. The actual Bantu are concentrated on the lower reaches of the Jubba. The other Madow groups are probably related to the Ari of Ethiopia and have no connection to the Bantu.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/somalia/images/map-somalia-clans-1977.jpg

you said earlier "Minorities (non-Samaale Somalis) are becoming educated and beginning to tell their own sides of the story"

can you show me examples of this? they seem to be spreading misinformation instead, in the case of prof eno who claims groups like shabeli are somalized former bantu speakers. are you the first to suggest they weren't bantus?. Closest i've seen is on facebook where they were claiming not to be bantu but suggesting they were "samaale somalis" instead (which we know is not true).

 

[Grant]

you said earlier "Minorities (non-Samaale Somalis) are becoming educated and beginning to tell their own sides of the story"

can you show me examples of this? they seem to be spreading misinformation instead, in the case of prof eno who claims groups like shabeli are somalized former bantu speakers. are you the first to suggest they weren't bantus?. Closest i've seen is on facebook where they were claiming not to be bantu but suggesting they were "samaale somalis" instead (which we know is not true).

There is a LOT of misinformation out there. Some people are still thinking in terms of the Book of the Zanj and the Mijikenda origin story of Shungwaya, which has been identified with Bur Gao. It said the Mijikenda, who are Bantu, came back to Kenya from Somalia and that other Bantu were driven by the Oromo into the upper reaches of the rivers The site at Bur Gao has been excavated and found to be a Roman period trading post. The Book of the Zanj is thought to be an early 20th century fraud. Google "the myth of Shungwaya". There were also stories that the Madow were slaves of the Ajuraan, which is simply not true. Only the Mushunguli and Gosha are Bantu. The others are Negroid, but they never spoke Bantu languages and are pre-Cushitic.

This is only a partial listing, but will give you an idea of the Minority groups online and what they are saying:

http://minorityrights.org/minorities/gaboye/
http://www.sbcmala.org/our-history.html
http://sbaoa.org/
http://history-of-brava-somalia.blogspot.com/
https://bajunicampaign.wordpress.com/2013/09/25/why-bajunis-are-forced-to-flee-somalia/
http://www.madhibaan.org/
http://www.suppressedhistories.net/matrix/zigula.html
http://www.somaliaonline.com/community/topic/eeylo/
https://www.hiiraan.com/2005/apr/Yibir_of_Las_Burgabo.htm
https://beizani.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/introduction-to-somali-beizani/

 

[Grant]

Oh yes, the foreign settlement of Berbera by the Cushites, how could we forget about that @MARAQ DIGAAG





If you read the whole study, which I did, Sara Mire and her team argue that the Horn and it's contemporary kingdoms were linked with Southern Arabian culture, most likely through trade, just like it was with Egyptian culture. This is nothing new, and especially northern Somalia has always been linked with Yemen up until recently. Aden itself was described as "majority Arab and Somali" in the 1800s.

What Sada Mire and her team did not state was that there was definitely (or perhaps or might or maybe, you never reallymade it clear) foreign settlement, which was your point.

And again, these old connections are no surprise, considering several historians and scholars believe that South Arabia used to be inhabited by Cushitic speaking peoples who were later absorbed by their Semitic neighbours to the north.


And specifically the Himyarite

Cushean is Cushitic.


View attachment 28309

So yes, cultural influence is a given and not something that hasn't been known for long. So could you give evidence for the "foreign settlement of Berbera"? Because all you've shown is evidence of pre Christian and pre Islamic Cushitic settlement, which I have to thank you for.


And don't misrepresent someone else's words.

Misrepresenting?

Since you have not taken up my challenge I have done some of the work:

https://www.phil.muni.cz/jazyk/files/AAmigrationsCORR.pdf

AFROASIATIC MIGRATIONS: LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE

"Having identified a Cushitic-like substratum in Modern South Arabian, Militarev (1984, 18-19; cf. also Belova 2003) proposes that Cushites
originally lived throughout the Arabian Peninsula; thus they would be the original southern neighbors of the Semites, who then assimilated those Cushites who did not move into Ethiopia. This hypothesis is supported byAnati (1968, 180-84), who analyzed the rock art of Central Arabia. He connected the pictures of the ‘oval-headed’ people depicted with shields with the Arabian ‘Cushites’ from the OldTestament [Genesis: 10.6-12; Isaiah 45.14] described also with specific shields [Jeremiah 46.9; Ezekiel 38.5]. The spread of Cushites in Africa is connected with the Rift Valley. In the coastal area of Eritrea and Djibuti, where the Rift enters into the African mainland, three archaic representatives
of the North, Central (= Agaw) and Eastern branches of Cushitic appear: Beja, Bilin and Afar-Saho respectively. In this place the disintegration of Cushitic probably began. Ancestors of the Agaw spread in the north of Eritrea and Ethiopia, the Beja also in Sudan between the Nile and the Red Sea. Other East and South Cushitic languages moved southward along the Rift Valley through Ethiopia, Kenya, as far as Central Tanzania. Partial migrations from the Rift inhabited areas more distant, e.g.the Horn by Somaloid populations (Heine 1978, 65-70) or the lower basin of the Tana in Kenya by the Dahalo and recently by the South Oromo. Concerning Ma’a, see Mous 2003."

If there was a Cushitic substrate in Arabia ( and this only says Cushitic-like), it would have come from the Rift valley and would have been either North, Central or Northeastern Cushitic. AfSamaale is Southeastern Cushitic, closely related to Rendille and Oromo, and there is nothing at all to suggest it crossed the Red Sea or was even near the north coast at an early period. M215 and M35, subclades of E1b1b, came up the Nile and then down the Dawa, or to the coastal plain at the Tana and then north. E1b1b comes from the south and west of Somalia. It's T and J that come from the north, as shown by the Dir and Warsangali as well as the DNA evidence. Only E1b1b is Cushitic. T is Persian and J is Semitic. Don't try to conflate any of this with later periods when assimilation had already occurred and the myths of additional Semitic ancestors had begun to pop up. Both DNA and linguistics say it wasn't so.

You have been reading a different Sada Mire than I have been reading.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9#Sec8

Red Sea Sabaean/Himyarite and Pre-Askumite Empires (ca. Ninth Century BCE–Third Century CE)

"There is an extensive and ancient relationship between the people and cultures of both sides of the Red Sea coast (Phillipson 1998). Rock art sites such as Dhagah Nabi Gallay and Dhagah Kureh include Sabaean and Himyarite writings associated with South Arabia (see Map 3). In certain contexts, they appear to have been added to the rock art later, suggesting by superimposition. In 2007, more rock art sites with Sabaean and Himyarite writings in and around Hargeysa region were found, but sadly some were bulldozed by developers, as the Ministry of Tourism could not buy the land or stop the destruction. I have also recorded a burial site with such writings in Shalcaw (39), on the Red Sea coast (see Fig. 4). Furthermore, the Qar-Gebi megalithic burials include what might be ancient writings, perhaps Himyarite and Sabaean, but it needs to be confirmed. The Pre-Aksumite cultures of current-day Ethiopia are linked with South Arabian kingdoms. The Pre-Aksumite Empire itself might have been part of, or at least culturally linked with, contemporary kingdoms in what is now the Somali-populated region. Not only are there links through the findings of Himyarite and Sabaean writings, but also early Christianity seems to have spread throughout the Horn, including the Somali region, as explored below. However, the burial site of Shal’aw is associated with other ancient burials in the immediate wadis in this sandy coastal landscape. The “wadi burials” are part of an ancient landscape that has been washed away by the floods and now exposed vertically, showing clear stratigraphic levels. If these burials can be rescued in time, there is a potential that we learn more about first-millennium BCE cultures of this little known Red Sea region, and associations with the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures, as well as perhaps ancient Egypt and the trade in frankincense and myrrh, still a big part of the economy in this area.

How is it you have such a hard time identifying Pre-Auxumites, Himyarites and Sabaeans as non-Samaales? Are they foreigners in relation to the present inhabitants of the North coast? Yes. They and the Harla were largely Semitic. Did they build that stuff? Sada Mire says so. Did Cushites or Samaales build the early stone cities or conduct the early trade? No. The northern clans don't form until the 12th-13th centuries and the first mention of Somali is 15th century. The previous population was largely Semitic and Haplotype"T". The Cushitic E1b1b arrives late and may not cover even all of the Isaaq, as the Habar Garhajis also have a lot of "T".

 

[TheSayid]

There is a LOT of misinformation out there. Some people are still thinking in terms of the Book of the Zanj and the Mijikenda origin story of Shungwaya, which has been identified with Bur Gao. It said the Mijikenda, who are Bantu, came back to Kenya from Somalia and that other Bantu were driven by the Oromo into the upper reaches of the rivers The site at Bur Gao has been excavated and found to be a Roman period trading post. The Book of the Zanj is thought to be an early 20th century fraud. Google "the myth of Shungwaya". There were also stories that the Madow were slaves of the Ajuraan, which is simply not true. Only the Mushunguli and Gosha are Bantu. The others are Negroid, but they never spoke Bantu languages and are pre-Cushitic.

This is only a partial listing, but will give you an idea of the Minority groups online and what they are saying:

http://minorityrights.org/minorities/gaboye/
http://www.sbcmala.org/our-history.html
http://sbaoa.org/
http://history-of-brava-somalia.blogspot.com/
https://bajunicampaign.wordpress.com/2013/09/25/why-bajunis-are-forced-to-flee-somalia/
http://www.madhibaan.org/
http://www.suppressedhistories.net/matrix/zigula.html
http://www.somaliaonline.com/community/topic/eeylo/
https://www.hiiraan.com/2005/apr/Yibir_of_Las_Burgabo.htm
https://beizani.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/introduction-to-somali-beizani/

some of these sites seem like it was made for asylum reasons, also what the heck is beizani? that was a very odd blog to read.

 

[Lord Flacko]

Misrepresenting?

Since you have not taken up my challenge I have done some of the work:

https://www.phil.muni.cz/jazyk/files/AAmigrationsCORR.pdf

AFROASIATIC MIGRATIONS: LINGUISTIC EVIDENCE

"Having identified a Cushitic-like substratum in Modern South Arabian, Militarev (1984, 18-19; cf. also Belova 2003) proposes that Cushites
originally lived throughout the Arabian Peninsula; thus they would be the original southern neighbors of the Semites, who then assimilated those Cushites who did not move into Ethiopia. This hypothesis is supported byAnati (1968, 180-84), who analyzed the rock art of Central Arabia. He connected the pictures of the ‘oval-headed’ people depicted with shields with the Arabian ‘Cushites’ from the OldTestament [Genesis: 10.6-12; Isaiah 45.14] described also with specific shields [Jeremiah 46.9; Ezekiel 38.5]. The spread of Cushites in Africa is connected with the Rift Valley. In the coastal area of Eritrea and Djibuti, where the Rift enters into the African mainland, three archaic representatives
of the North, Central (= Agaw) and Eastern branches of Cushitic appear: Beja, Bilin and Afar-Saho respectively. In this place the disintegration of Cushitic probably began. Ancestors of the Agaw spread in the north of Eritrea and Ethiopia, the Beja also in Sudan between the Nile and the Red Sea. Other East and South Cushitic languages moved southward along the Rift Valley through Ethiopia, Kenya, as far as Central Tanzania. Partial migrations from the Rift inhabited areas more distant, e.g.the Horn by Somaloid populations (Heine 1978, 65-70) or the lower basin of the Tana in Kenya by the Dahalo and recently by the South Oromo. Concerning Ma’a, see Mous 2003."

If there was a Cushitic substrate in Arabia ( and this only says Cushitic-like), it would have come from the Rift valley and would have been either North, Central or Northeastern Cushitic. AfSamaale is Southeastern Cushitic, closely related to Rendille and Oromo, and there is nothing at all to suggest it crossed the Red Sea or was even near the north coast at an early period. M215 and M35, subclades of E1b1b, came up the Nile and then down the Dawa, or to the coastal plain at the Tana and then north. E1b1b comes from the south and west of Somalia. It's T and J that come from the north, as shown by the Dir and Warsangali as well as the DNA evidence. Only E1b1b is Cushitic. T is Persian and J is Semitic. Don't try to conflate any of this with later periods when assimilation had already occurred and the myths of additional Semitic ancestors had begun to pop up. Both DNA and linguistics say it wasn't so.

You have been reading a different Sada Mire than I have been reading.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9#Sec8

Red Sea Sabaean/Himyarite and Pre-Askumite Empires (ca. Ninth Century BCE–Third Century CE)

"There is an extensive and ancient relationship between the people and cultures of both sides of the Red Sea coast (Phillipson 1998). Rock art sites such as Dhagah Nabi Gallay and Dhagah Kureh include Sabaean and Himyarite writings associated with South Arabia (see Map 3). In certain contexts, they appear to have been added to the rock art later, suggesting by superimposition. In 2007, more rock art sites with Sabaean and Himyarite writings in and around Hargeysa region were found, but sadly some were bulldozed by developers, as the Ministry of Tourism could not buy the land or stop the destruction. I have also recorded a burial site with such writings in Shalcaw (39), on the Red Sea coast (see Fig. 4). Furthermore, the Qar-Gebi megalithic burials include what might be ancient writings, perhaps Himyarite and Sabaean, but it needs to be confirmed. The Pre-Aksumite cultures of current-day Ethiopia are linked with South Arabian kingdoms. The Pre-Aksumite Empire itself might have been part of, or at least culturally linked with, contemporary kingdoms in what is now the Somali-populated region. Not only are there links through the findings of Himyarite and Sabaean writings, but also early Christianity seems to have spread throughout the Horn, including the Somali region, as explored below. However, the burial site of Shal’aw is associated with other ancient burials in the immediate wadis in this sandy coastal landscape. The “wadi burials” are part of an ancient landscape that has been washed away by the floods and now exposed vertically, showing clear stratigraphic levels. If these burials can be rescued in time, there is a potential that we learn more about first-millennium BCE cultures of this little known Red Sea region, and associations with the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures, as well as perhaps ancient Egypt and the trade in frankincense and myrrh, still a big part of the economy in this area.

How is it you have such a hard time identifying Pre-Auxumites, Himyarites and Sabaeans as non-Samaales? Are they foreigners in relation to the present inhabitants of the North coast? Yes. They and the Harla were largely Semitic. Did they build that stuff? Sada Mire says so. Did Cushites or Samaales build the early stone cities or conduct the early trade? No. The northern clans don't form until the 12th-13th centuries and the first mention of Somali is 15th century. The previous population was largely Semitic and Haplotype"T". The Cushitic E1b1b arrives late and may not cover even all of the Isaaq, as the Habar Garhajis also have a lot of "T".

"This report is an archaeological testimony to the social complexity and cultural diversity of this region as a cultural crossroads for millennia, being strategically located on the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. However, the maps by no means exhaust the number of archaeological sites known to us in Somaliland. The region had vast Cushitic, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic Empires that at times formed part of the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures of Southern Arabia, the Aksumite Empire and early Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa.

lol you must be on something, because you qouted this very bit yourself which is what I had highlighted.


And how can you say this

If there was a Cushitic substrate in Arabia ( and this only says Cushitic-like), it would have come from the Rift valley and would have been either North, Central or Northeastern Cushitic. AfSamaale is Southeastern Cushitic, closely related to Rendille and Oromo, and there is nothing at all to suggest it crossed the Red Sea or was even near the north coast at an early period.

Literally one sentence a part from this

Partial migrations from the Rift inhabited areas more distant, e.g.the Horn by Somaloid populations (Heine 1978, 65-70) Concerning Ma’a, see Mous 2003."

? You're contradicting yourself really fast into your post. Do you actually have a story to tell or are you fumbling trying to haphazardly throw everything you have and see what sticks?

So again, you just gave me more proof of ProtoSomalis living in modern Somali lands, aka the Horn.

Same area that includes Berbera.



Again, you have provided no new or actual proof of foreign settlement in Berbera. You've provided more which contradicts your own claim.

There is tons upon tons of documents showing that the Ethiopians and Eritreans were heavily linked with the Himyarite and Sabean kingdoms and there is a obvious genetic footprint left behind. There is no such evidence, historically and genetically of these people having settled in Berbera however. Most likely any cultural exchange happened like 99% of other cultural exchanges, through trade which we have evidence for having happened.

And Cushitic is a linguistic group, nothing more. Stop your peddling of false notions, it's very tirering

 

[Lord Flacko]

Here is proof of trade between Himyarite-Sabean people and Somalis, with the Somalis most likely being the ones on the northern coast including Berbera.



You engage in heavy guesswork, with the favour always in the hands of everybody but Somalis. If I were to show you a tree you would claim some Persian guy planted it.

You also change your "facts" around all the time, because on somnet you claimed Sultan Abu Bakr was Somali yet in this thread you're claiming he's not

 

[Grant]

"This report is an archaeological testimony to the social complexity and cultural diversity of this region as a cultural crossroads for millennia, being strategically located on the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. However, the maps by no means exhaust the number of archaeological sites known to us in Somaliland. The region had vast Cushitic, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic Empires that at times formed part of the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures of Southern Arabia, the Aksumite Empire and early Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa.

lol you must be on something, because you qouted this very bit yourself which is what I had highlighted.


And how can you say this

Literally one sentence a part from this

? You're contradicting yourself really fast into your post. Do you actually have a story to tell or are you fumbling trying to haphazardly throw everything you have and see what sticks?

So again, you just gave me more proof of ProtoSomalis living in modern Somali lands, aka the Horn.
View attachment 28509
Same area that includes Berbera.



Again, you have provided no new or actual proof of foreign settlement in Berbera. You've provided more which contradicts your own claim.

There is tons upon tons of documents showing that the Ethiopians and Eritreans were heavily linked with the Himyarite and Sabean kingdoms and there is a obvious genetic footprint left behind. There is no such evidence, historically and genetically of these people having settled in Berbera however. Most likely any cultural exchange happened like 99% of other cultural exchanges, through trade which we have evidence for having happened.

And Cushitic is a linguistic group, nothing more. Stop your peddling of false notions, it's very tirering

The Region Sada Mire is discussing, and which you have included on your map (which seems to have since been deleted from the copy that reached this post), includes the mouth of the rift valley in Eritreia/Sudan, which I covered.

Other people have no problem using "Cushitic" as a general adjective, including referring to tribes:

http://www.enzimuseum.org/peoples-cultures/cushitic-peoples

Cushitic peoples
Share
By Maina Kiarie

"In Kenya, Cushitic language speakers are divided into the Eastern and Southern Group.

Cushites form a significant minority of Kenya’s population. They speak Afro-Asiatic languages, and originally came from Ethiopia and Somalia in north-east Africa. Cushites are concentrated in the northernmost North Eastern Province (formerly known as Northern Frontier District -NFD), which borders Somalia.

The Cushitic people’s form a small ethnic minority of about 2%, mostly represented by Oromo and Somali speakers.

The Southern Cushites were the second earliest inhabitants of Kenya after the indigenous Bushman hunter-gatherer groups, and the first of the Cushitic-speaking people to migrate from their homeland in the Horn of Africa about 2000 years ago. They were progressively displaced in a southerly direction and/or absorbed by incoming Nilotic and Bantu groups until they wound up in Tanzania. As a consequence of these movements, there are no longer any Southern Cushites left in Kenya.

The Eastern Cushites include the Oromo and the Somali, of which the Somali are the most recent arrivals to Kenya, having first come from Somalia only a few centuries ago.

Cushites, or Cushitic people, live in the arid and semi-arid eastern and North-Eastern parts of Kenya. They reside along a very large area of land that runs from the east of Lake Turkana, stretches to the north of Kenya, and through to the Indian Ocean. Cushites include Somali, Rendille, Borana and Oromo tribes."

I don't think you are reading Sada Mire at all correctly. There is lots of stuff there that is obviously new to you and that you might catch on a re-read. Try it..

 

[Grant]

View attachment 28510 View attachment 28511

Here is proof of trade between Himyarite-Sabean people and Somalis, with the Somalis most likely being the ones on the northern coast including Berbera.



You engage in heavy guesswork, with the favour always in the hands of everybody but Somalis. If I were to show you a tree you would claim some Persian guy planted it.

You also change your "facts" around all the time, because on somnet you claimed Sultan Abu Bakr was Somali yet in this thread you're claiming he's not

Love your quote. Surely wish you would link these things.

. Somalis were selling Myrrh and other products, Arabs were doing the shipping.

The Somalis were likely T or J or could have been Sabaean or Himyarite during the visit by the author of the Periplus. It is clear from the early writing that authors often associated peoples with locations, your earlier comment from the Syrians about the Himyarites being Cushites and Ethiopians being a good example. If the Syrians couldn't tell the difference, well.... Somali just means someone living in or from Somalia., another good reason for us today to distinguish between Somali and Samaale. Things otherwise can get very confusing.

I don't change facts. I do change opinions as my understanding changes or increases. I also thought at one time that the Shidle, etc, were Bantu. More recent and better information has come to light since then. I hope I can be forgiven for my earlier mistakes. This is, after all, a learning exercise.

 

[Lord Flacko]

Other people have no problem using "Cushitic" as a general adjective, including referring to tribes:

http://www.enzimuseum.org/peoples-cultures/cushitic-peoples

Cushitic peoples
Share
By Maina Kiarie

"In Kenya, Cushitic language speakers are divided into the Eastern and Southern Group.

Cushites form a significant minority of Kenya’s population. They speak Afro-Asiatic languages, and originally came from Ethiopia and Somalia in north-east Africa. Cushites are concentrated in the northernmost North Eastern Province (formerly known as Northern Frontier District -NFD), which borders Somalia.

The Cushitic people’s form a small ethnic minority of about 2%, mostly represented by Oromo and Somali speakers.

What is it with every piece you post only supporting me whilst you're using them as an arguement against me?

And Cushitic is a linguistic group, nothing more. Stop your peddling of false notions, it's very tirering

Thanks, I suppose.

I don't think you are reading Sada Mire at all correctly. There is lots of stuff there that is obviously new to you and that you might catch on a re-read. Try it..

Well I only highlighted what you qouted, smart ass. You conviently didn't qoute the same piece the second time, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I didn't post this earlier because I know you think Sada Mire is also full of it. Nevertheless, she, and not you or I, did the work and is the expert. What I gave you earlier is physical proof specific to Berbera. Here is academic analysis:

Sada Mire on the Somaliland coast:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9

"This report is an archaeological testimony to the social complexity and cultural diversity of this region as a cultural crossroads for millennia, being strategically located on the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. However, the maps by no means exhaust the number of archaeological sites known to us in Somaliland. The region had vast Cushitic, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic Empires that at times formed part of the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures of Southern Arabia, the Aksumite Empire and early Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa.

From your own post. Everybody can read that just well.

 

[Lord Flacko]

Love your quote. Surely wish you would link these things.

. Somalis were selling Myrrh and other products, Arabs were doing the shipping.

The Somalis were likely T or J or could have been Sabaean or Himyarite during the visit by the author of the Periplus. It is clear from the early writing that authors often associated peoples with locations, your earlier comment from the Syrians about the Himyarites being Cushites and Ethiopians being a good example. Somali just means someone living in or from Somalia., another good reason for us today to distinguish between Somali and Samaale. Things otherwise can get very confusing.

I don't change facts. I do change opinions as my understanding changes or increases. I also thought at one time that the Shidle, etc, were Bantu. More recent and better information has come to light since then. I hope I can be forgiven for my earlier mistakes. This is, after all, a learning exercise.

"were likely, or could have been"

Or as I like to call it, guesswork

Atleast you're evolving from full on stubbornness to "maybe" stubbornness.


If you change opinions, what is it that made you change from 100% believing Sultan Abu Bakr was Somali to 100% believing he wasn't? It's clearly not anything you've posted in this thread, so do tell.

 

[Grant]

"were likely, or could have been"

Or as I like to call it, guesswork

Atleast you're evolving from full on stubbornness to "maybe" stubbornness.


If you change opinions, what is it that made you change from 100% believing Sultan Abu Bakr was Somali to 100% believing he wasn't? It's clearly not anything you've posted in this thread, so do tell.

I started reading more than just encyclopedias and I learned that there was a difference between Somali and Samaale. Also, I ran into James Dahl, who made a study of the early governance of Mog:

https://historyinthehorn.wordpress.com/2011/09/02/when-himyar-ruled-the-banadir/

He also did a study on the "Rulers of Mogadishu" that I have not been able to relocate. I know you won't believe him, so try this. It doesn't get to the earliest stuff, but does cover the Abgal takeover of Mog from the Muzzaffar dynasty of Yemen/Zanzibar.

https://operationoverload.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/a-concise-history-of-mogadishu/

"The Yaaquub is a lineage of the Abgal clan who itself is part of the wider Darandoole Mudulood group. The Darandoole Mudulood is a pastoral group that lived in Central Somalia, and throughout the centuries migrated Southwards.<!–[if !supportFootnotes]–>[4]<!–[endif]–> As a consequence of this southwards migration, the Darandoole Mudulood encroached slowly but steadily on Mogadishu city and came in conflict with the Muzzaffar dynasty. This dynasty in Mogadishu was itself incapable to withstand this migration and encroachment and opted for negotiation with the Imam of the Darandole."

"Cerulli has recorded traditional narrative of how the Darandole conquered Mogadishu against the Muzaffar dynasty:

“In ancient times the Sirasi lived in Mogadiscio. The people called Halawani succeeded the Sirasi. The Mudaffar succeeded the Halawani. The Mudaffar came from the country of Yemen in Arabia. He had guns. He built the palace that is found under the Governor’s house. He was a friend of the Aguran. At that time the Mudaffar governed the coast; and the Aguran ruled in the woodland. The Hirabe were not nearby them; they lived in the northern places. At that time the people of the woodland could not spend the night in the city of Mogadiscio. At sunset a ban was put on the city: ‘Hawiyya, it is growing dark! Hawiyya, it is growing dark!’ Then they went away toward the woodland.

The Darandoolle have conquered Mogadishu city and killed the Muzzaffar governor sometime between 1590 and 1625. The approximate dates appear to be corroborated by a Portuguese document dated 1624<!–[if !supportFootnotes]–>[6]<!–[endif]–>. "

This is, of course, long after Ibn Batuta visited in 1331.The difficulty for me before reading all this was that Arabic and Somali names are so similar.

 

[TheSayid]

Love your quote. Surely wish you would link these things.

. Somalis were selling Myrrh and other products, Arabs were doing the shipping.

The Somalis were likely T or J or could have been Sabaean or Himyarite during the visit by the author of the Periplus. It is clear from the early writing that authors often associated peoples with locations, your earlier comment from the Syrians about the Himyarites being Cushites and Ethiopians being a good example. If the Syrians couldn't tell the difference, well.... Somali just means someone living in or from Somalia., another good reason for us today to distinguish between Somali and Samaale. Things otherwise can get very confusing.

I don't change facts. I do change opinions as my understanding changes or increases. I also thought at one time that the Shidle, etc, were Bantu. More recent and better information has come to light since then. I hope I can be forgiven for my earlier mistakes. This is, after all, a learning exercise.

doesn't the word somali come from samaale?, so-maal apparently means "go milk" which is reference to nomadic lifestyle, its honestly weird for anyone else to call them self this other than "samaales". on this forum we basically say ehtnic somalis, and somali nationals. i don't see djiboutians calling themselves "samaale"

 

[Grant]

doesn't the word somali come from samaale?, so-maal apparently means "go milk" which is reference to nomadic lifestyle, its honestly weird for anyone else to call them self this other than "samaales". on this forum we basically say ehtnic somalis, and somali nationals. i don't see djiboutians calling themselves "samaale"

Modern usage for "Somali" comes from Somalia, the country. It has few direct ethnic connotations. Samaale is ethnic. Djiboutians would not call themselves Somalis because of the country issue and would not call themselves Samaales because they are mostly 'T". "Ethnic Somalis" does not cover the territory and only adds to the confusion when topics like this come up. I understand the reluctance to divide the population more than it already is, but issues such as migration can't be discussed without distinguishing between ethnicities. "Somali nationals" belong to what ethnic group?

 

[Lord Flacko]

I started reading more than just encyclopedias and I learned that there was a difference between Somali and Samaale. Also, I ran into James Dahl, who made a study of the early governance of Mog:

https://historyinthehorn.wordpress.com/2011/09/02/when-himyar-ruled-the-banadir/

He also did a study on the "Rulers of Mogadishu" that I have not been able to relocate. I know you won't believe him, so try this. It doesn't get to the earliest stuff, but does cover the Abgal takeover of Mog from the Muzzaffar dynasty of Yemen/Zanzibar.

https://operationoverload.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/a-concise-history-of-mogadishu/

"The Yaaquub is a lineage of the Abgal clan who itself is part of the wider Darandoole Mudulood group. The Darandoole Mudulood is a pastoral group that lived in Central Somalia, and throughout the centuries migrated Southwards.<!–[if !supportFootnotes]–>[4]<!–[endif]–> As a consequence of this southwards migration, the Darandoole Mudulood encroached slowly but steadily on Mogadishu city and came in conflict with the Muzzaffar dynasty. This dynasty in Mogadishu was itself incapable to withstand this migration and encroachment and opted for negotiation with the Imam of the Darandole."

"Cerulli has recorded traditional narrative of how the Darandole conquered Mogadishu against the Muzaffar dynasty:

“In ancient times the Sirasi lived in Mogadiscio. The people called Halawani succeeded the Sirasi. The Mudaffar succeeded the Halawani. The Mudaffar came from the country of Yemen in Arabia. He had guns. He built the palace that is found under the Governor’s house. He was a friend of the Aguran. At that time the Mudaffar governed the coast; and the Aguran ruled in the woodland. The Hirabe were not nearby them; they lived in the northern places. At that time the people of the woodland could not spend the night in the city of Mogadiscio. At sunset a ban was put on the city: ‘Hawiyya, it is growing dark! Hawiyya, it is growing dark!’ Then they went away toward the woodland.

The Darandoolle have conquered Mogadishu city and killed the Muzzaffar governor sometime between 1590 and 1625. The approximate dates appear to be corroborated by a Portuguese document dated 1624<!–[if !supportFootnotes]–>[6]<!–[endif]–>. "

This is, of course, long after Ibn Batuta visited in 1331.The difficulty for me before reading all this was that Arabic and Somali names are so similar.

Yeah no you're already lying, because you said Abu Bakr was Somali on somnet in a thread about James Dahls post, so you didn't run into it but you read it and still said Abu Bakr was Somali.


And all of that other stuff is bullshit, because Ibn Battuta wouldn't call Yemenis, or other Arabs or Persians for dark skinned Berbers who spoke a different native language.


The only constant about you is your belief that everything was built and ruled by foreign settlements before Somalis took over. How exactly changes everytime you're challenged.


James Dahls' theories all have wacky timelines and tons of guesswork. The closest actual 1st hand account is that of Ibn Battuta and it is clear as day. Every historian and scholar who is worth their dime believe that Mogadishu was ruled by its native Somali population.
Even long before "the takeover", a Portuguese named Leo spoke of Adal and Adea, two Moor kingdoms of the same stock. To the Adea belonged Mogadishu, whose inhabitants he indicated were of the same stock. The people of Mogadishu were olive to dark skinned and spoke the lingua franca of Arabic. In comparison he described Melinde, Zanzibar to be a city filled with white Arabians.



The supposed lineages are bullshit and stem from more recent Yemeni immigrants to Mogadishu, as most of them immigrated there hundreds of years before their lineage even starts, and I know that from first hand.


I do not describe to the delusions you are presenting. James Dahl' says no Somali even lived close to Mogadishu until the 1500s, yet in the 11th century states that the Hawiya tribe lived in Benadir and along the Shabelle river with its capital being Merca, another city you claim to be founded by whoever. James Dahl also states that "even though most scholars says Azania is south of Somalia, I believe it isn't " which is how he goes on to say the Himyar established Mogadishu since they ruled Azania. Even though this is never directly stated, and most scholars believe Azania is the Swahili coast which has always been a place for settlement by Arabs.

The "12 Arab and Persian tribes" bullshit has no historical backing and is recent guesswork taken as fact.


Again, you can all take your bullshit and stick it back up wherever it came from. Do something worthwhile in your retirement.

 

[Lord Flacko]

Modern usage for "Somali" comes from Somalia, the country. It has few direct ethnic connotations. Samaale is ethnic. Djiboutians would not call themselves Somalis because of the country issue and would not call themselves Samaales because they are mostly 'T". "Ethnic Somalis" does not cover the territory and only adds to the confusion when topics like this come up. I understand the reluctance to divide the population more than it already is, but issues such as migration can't be discussed without distinguishing between ethnicities. "Somali nationals" belong to what ethnic group?

Job off old man. Somalis are one ethnicity. Samaale isn't an ethnicity nor is a fucking haplogroup.

@TheSayid arguing with him will get you nowhere. He believes every haplogroup is their own ethnicity, and that every dialect is their own language. But only in the case of Somalis, other ethnicites are expected to have different haplogroups and dialects

 

[Grant]

Yeah no you're already lying, because you said Abu Bakr was Somali on somnet in a thread about James Dahls post, so you didn't run into it but you read it and still said Abu Bakr was Somali.


And all of that other stuff is bullshit, because Ibn Battuta wouldn't call Yemenis, or other Arabs or Persians for dark skinned Berbers who spoke a different native language.


The only constant about you is your belief that everything was built and ruled by foreign settlements before Somalis took over. How exactly changes everytime you're challenged.


James Dahls' theories all have wacky timelines and tons of guesswork. The closest actual 1st hand account is that of Ibn Battuta and it is clear as day. Every historian and scholar who is worth their dime believe that Mogadishu was ruled by its native Somali population.
Even long before "the takeover", a Portuguese named Leo spoke of Adal and Adea, two Moor kingdoms of the same stock. To the Adea belonged Mogadishu, whose inhabitants he indicated were of the same stock. The people of Mogadishu were olive to dark skinned and spoke the lingua franca of Arabic. In comparison he described Melinde, Zanzibar to be a city filled with white Arabians.



The supposed lineages are bullshit and stem from more recent Yemeni immigrants to Mogadishu, as most of them immigrated there hundreds of years before their lineage even starts, and I know that from first hand.


I do not describe to the delusions you are presenting. James Dahl' says no Somali even lived close to Mogadishu until the 1500s, yet in the 11th century states that the Hawiya tribe lived in Benadir and along the Shabelle river with its capital being Merca, another city you claim to be founded by whoever. James Dahl also states that "even though most scholars says Azania is south of Somalia, I believe it isn't " which is how he goes on to say the Himyar established Mogadishu since they ruled Azania. Even though this is never directly stated, and most scholars believe Azania is the Swahili coast which has always been a place for settlement by Arabs.

The "12 Arab and Persian tribes" bullshit has no historical backing and is recent guesswork taken as fact.


Again, you can all take your bullshit and stick it back up wherever it came from. Do something worthwhile in your retirement.

I am.You're lost and grasping. Defending the One Somalia BS is a lost cause. Insults are what you resort to when you know you have already lost the logical argument.

 

[TheSayid]

Modern usage for "Somali" comes from Somalia, the country. It has few direct ethnic connotations. Samaale is ethnic. Djiboutians would not call themselves Somalis because of the country issue and would not call themselves Samaales because they are mostly 'T". "Ethnic Somalis" does not cover the territory and only adds to the confusion when topics like this come up. I understand the reluctance to divide the population more than it already is, but issues such as migration can't be discussed without distinguishing between ethnicities. "Somali nationals" belong to what ethnic group?

djiboutians(isse) do call themselves somali and so do "samaales" in ethiopia in kenya and ethiopia, modern usage of the word somali stretches to the whole somali penisuala. sometimes you will find non-samaales refusing to call themselves somalis(someone posted a video on that today) because "somali" has ethnic connotations in the real world,

"Somali nationals" belong to what ethnic group?

somali-bantu for example is actually considered an ethnic group, and i would assume "beneadiri" etc would be recognized ethnic groups.
http://orvillejenkins.com/peoples/somalibantu.html

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

Good karbaash guys ,after I set up the goal

 

[Lord Flacko]

I am.You're lost and grasping. Defending the One Somalia BS is a lost cause. Insults are what you resort to when you know you have already lost the logical argument.

I'm not defending one Somalia I couldn't care less. Again you are creating things to score points against.



I'm not the one grasping, I'm pointing out how you aare. 99% of your (guess)work relies upon maybe, if and I (would like to) believe. Why? Well for some reason you have a vendetta against Somalis which is why nothing is ours, we invaded and displaced a dozen different ethnicities and we are actually not even an ethnicity. You will go to great lengths to back this, and you've been called out since you signed up on somnet yet you persist. It's obvious you have had interactions with Somalis so my guess is its something personal, or just simply old school arrogance.



My patience is over with you. This whole thread has been a back and forth where you've achieved nothing, or backed up anything with actual proof and not guesswork. Everytime you know you've lost one arguement you switch over to another.



When it comes to Somalis, you present yourself as someone who knows us a whole lot better than ourselves. All the two haplogroups are different ethnicities, there are dozens of languages and so on.

So answer me this, is the Norwegian ethnicity a farce? Because they have 4 different major haplogroups, with many different small ones. They got two different scripts. They have wildly different dialects that can be unintelligible at times. Shit they've even displaced the local native population, the Samí. So they're actually equally or more different in the ways that you say split the Somali ethnicity, so if you're not a hypocrite then you'd say their ethnicity is a farce too.

Only then you'd realise how fucking stupid your argument is, and how noone, especially the Norwegians, would take you seriously. Which is why you've ignored this question throughout the thread. Under any light most of your arguments fall apart.