Somali connection to Madagascar?

djiboutians(isse) do call themselves somali and so do "samaales" in ethiopia in kenya and ethiopia, modern usage of the word somali stretches to the whole somali penisuala. sometimes you will find non-samaales refusing to call themselves somalis(someone posted a video on that today) because "somali" has ethnic connotations in the real world,

somali-bantu for example is actually considered an ethnic group, and i would assume "beneadiri" etc would be recognized ethnic groups.
http://orvillejenkins.com/peoples/somalibantu.html
I can't speak to Somali usage among themselves, but the Somalis in Ethiopia, Kenya and Djibouti are all part of Somaliweyn, which is a culture all unto itself. Even I would like to see Somaliweyn accomplished. Faith in the resurrection must be providing some of this. I just try to remain realistic about the component parts.

Yeah. Many of the Minorities are tired of the One-Somalia BS. For them, "Somali" has become pejorative.

Somali Bantu is a sort of ethnic group, combined and lumpy as it is.. Banadiri might break down further, depending on how you dealt with the Barwanni;. They all have double ethnicities. I can think of at least five more ethnicities I would break out. Are you just going to lump them all as Somali nationals? The Minority websites are certainly looking for individual recognition of their individual identities, and the differences between the.Bantu and the Bajuni are significant. I don't find your two terms adequate.
 
I'm not defending one Somalia I couldn't care less. Again you are creating things to score points against.



I'm not the one grasping, I'm pointing out how you aare. 99% of your (guess)work relies upon maybe, if and I (would like to) believe. Why? Well for some reason you have a vendetta against Somalis which is why nothing is ours, we invaded and displaced a dozen different ethnicities and we are actually not even an ethnicity. You will go to great lengths to back this, and you've been called out since you signed up on somnet yet you persist. It's obvious you have had interactions with Somalis so my guess is its something personal, or just simply old school arrogance.



My patience is over with you. This whole thread has been a back and forth where you've achieved nothing, or backed up anything with actual proof and not guesswork. Everytime you know you've lost one arguement you switch over to another.



When it comes to Somalis, you present yourself as someone who knows us a whole lot better than ourselves. All the two haplogroups are different ethnicities, there are dozens of languages and so on.

So answer me this, is the Norwegian ethnicity a farce? Because they have 4 different major haplogroups, with many different small ones. They got two different scripts. They have wildly different dialects that can be unintelligible at times. Shit they've even displaced the local native population, the Samí. So they're actually equally or more different in the ways that you say split the Somali ethnicity, so if you're not a hypocrite then you'd say their ethnicity is a farce too.

Only then you'd realise how fucking stupid your argument is, and how noone, especially the Norwegians, would take you seriously. Which is why you've ignored this question throughout the thread. Under any light most of your arguments fall apart.

The Norwegian ethnicity is not a farce, but they do not discriminate against minorities politically and they are out in the open about their differences. You are hiding your differences and the true history in order to disenfranchise the Minorities. Of course you will deny it and call me a liar with no proof. I',m done too.
 
The Norwegian ethnicity is not a farce, but they do not discriminate against minorities politically and they are out in the open about their differences. You are hiding your differences and the true history in order to disenfranchise the Minorities. Of course you will deny it and call me a liar with no proof. I',m done too.
Why is the Norwegian ethnicity not a farce but the Somali one is then? Considering why you believe the Somali ethnicity is a farce, you must certainly believe the Norwegian one is too which is why I'm perplexed. What is it that puts them apart?
 

Xaagi-Cagmadigtee

Guul ama Dhimasho
I am not sure why Grant is denying the ruler of Mogadishu at the time of Ibn Battuta was Somali. Not too many "dark-skinned, speaking the local dialect" Arabs existed then. Barbers were all the dark-skinned inhabitants of the Somali peninsula. This written account of Ibn Battuta is only 750 years ago or less. You are just being stubborn.

Also Grant, how does one shift in haplogroups? Are you serious on this one? Khoisan people are one of the earliest peoples, and since Y chromosome does not recombine, and is slow to mutate, no way these folks shifted to "E" in the last 2 to 3k years ago as you suggested in one of your posts.

As for Madagascar, if the paternal haplogroup is T and J, then it is safe to assume Antemoro are descendants of Arab sailors.

As for Haplogroup T origins, the latest study puts it around northern Arabian peninsula/Levant (predates Arabs), not Persia. Even it were Persian, it predates anything Persian as we currently know it.

What we need are more tests, Full Y would be helpful, to ascertain which clade is commonly the Somali Dir haplotype. I am T-M70 ( a subclade of T-M184), according to 23& Me this man lived 30,000 years ago, or 1,200 generations ago. Location? Probably ME/NA.

upload_2017-8-30_0-50-7.png
 
I am not sure why Grant is denying the ruler of Mogadishu at the time of Ibn Battuta was Somali. Not too many "dark-skinned, speaking the local dialect" Arabs existed then. Barbers were all the dark-skinned inhabitants of the Somali peninsula. This written account of Ibn Battuta is only 750 years ago or less. You are just being stubborn.

Also Grant, how does one shift in haplogroups? Are you serious on this one? Khoisan people are one of the earliest peoples, and since Y chromosome does not recombine, and is slow to mutate, no way these folks shifted to "E" in the last 2 to 3k years ago as you suggested in one of your posts.

As for Madagascar, if the paternal haplogroup is T and J, then it is safe to assume Antemoro are descendants of Arab sailors.

As for Haplogroup T origins, the latest study puts it around northern Arabian peninsula/Levant (predates Arabs), not Persia. Even it were Persian, it predates anything Persian as we currently know it.

What we need are more tests, Full Y would be helpful, to ascertain which clade is commonly the Somali Dir haplotype. I am T-M70 ( a subclade of T-M184), according to 23& Me this man lived 30,000 years ago, or 1,200 generations ago. Location? Probably ME/NA.

View attachment 28531
That makes sense. Most likely origin is the Fertile Crescent/Mesopotamia to the Mountains of Iran.

Maybe, it was a common haplogroup among early Sumerians and Caucasians.
 
I am not sure why Grant is denying the ruler of Mogadishu at the time of Ibn Battuta was Somali. Not too many "dark-skinned, speaking the local dialect" Arabs existed then. Barbers were all the dark-skinned inhabitants of the Somali peninsula. This written account of Ibn Battuta is only 750 years ago or less. You are just being stubborn.

Also Grant, how does one shift in haplogroups? Are you serious on this one? Khoisan people are one of the earliest peoples, and since Y chromosome does not recombine, and is slow to mutate, no way these folks shifted to "E" in the last 2 to 3k years ago as you suggested in one of your posts.

As for Madagascar, if the paternal haplogroup is T and J, then it is safe to assume Antemoro are descendants of Arab sailors.

As for Haplogroup T origins, the latest study puts it around northern Arabian peninsula/Levant (predates Arabs), not Persia. Even it were Persian, it predates anything Persian as we currently know it.

What we need are more tests, Full Y would be helpful, to ascertain which clade is commonly the Somali Dir haplotype. I am T-M70 ( a subclade of T-M184), according to 23& Me this man lived 30,000 years ago, or 1,200 generations ago. Location? Probably ME/NA.

View attachment 28531

Haagi.

It is indeed a pleasure to find a thinking person here, who also has critical reading comprehension skills!

I trust you have read Prince Abubu's post by now. If you have newer data. please link it.

Ibn Batuta visited in 1331. The Yaaquub Abgaal took over Mogadishu from the Omani Muzzaffar dynasty only about 1625. (You may have missed the post above.) Abu Bakr is said to have come from Berbera, which was the reason for some of the discussion here. It is unreasonable because of the low Isaaq population at the time to think he was Habar Awal, and there is no association with any other Somali clan. You may have noticed that the Omani-Zanzibaris are quite dark and that the Suldan wrote on the back of court documents "as was always the custom with these people." No. That doesn't work. Himyar was in Mog probably since before the beginning of the Common Era; Omanis were there beginning about 900, so I doubt they had trouble fitting in. Notice that Ibn Batuta does not mention the Ajuraan at all.

This is from a 340 plus page doctoral dissertation on Genetic variation among the Khoisan of South Africa written in 2010., page 223 and following:

http://wiredspace.wits.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10539/8992/CM_SCHLEBUSCH_THESIS.pdf?sequence=1

"The remaining E-M35* haplotypes were divided into two groups, one group are closely associated with the E-M78 and E-M34 subgroups and the other far larger group was separate from these (Figure 4.15 and 4.16). At the time that the experimental work, which form part of this thesis, was done the E-M293 marker (Hennet al, 2008) was not identified yet. As discussed in the Introduction (see section 1.2.2.3) the E-M293 was found to encompass all the !Xun and Khwe E-M35* haplotypes from that study (Hennet al, 2008). Furthermore, closely related E-M293 haplotypes was identified in the Hadza and Sandawe at high frequencies. The study linked the E-M293 marker to the introduction of pastoralism to the southern parts of Africa (Hennet a, 2008). "

There were also shifts to E-M75 and E-M2.

Definitely agree with you about the need for more testing.
 
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What we need are more tests, Full Y would be helpful, to ascertain which clade is commonly the Somali Dir haplotype. I am T-M70 ( a subclade of T-M184), according to 23& Me this man lived 30,000 years ago, or 1,200 generations ago. Location? Probably ME/NA.

View attachment 28531
I think it is probably a subclade of Y16897 because it is looking more likely that we are the result of a founder effect. One of the DNA Geeks on Anthrogenica calculated the TMRCA of Hap T Somalis in Tilmar's paper (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11631-hg-T-in-Somalis-Could-it-have-come-with-Islam) and discovered that it was not that different from the estimation made in Sanchez's study. You can check the STR's of the Somalis tested in the Tilmar study (http://www.fsigeneticssup.com/article/S1875-1768(09)00079-1/pdf). My STR's and those of the Somalis on FTDNA are represented in Sanchez, and they are also relatively closely matched to the ones in the Tilmar study.

Not all Somalis Hap T individuals will necessarily belong to Y16897 as other T subclades are present in North-East Africa and North Africa, but my gut feeling is that Dirs that are T will belong to the same subclade. For instance, the haplogroup T Dirs tested in Djibouti (https://www.researchgate.net/public...ci_analyzed_in_four_Eastern_African_countries) were quite distinct from the Hawiye haplogroup T individual. This indicates that they belong to the same subclade.
 
Haagi.

It is indeed a pleasure to find a thinking person here, who also has critical reading comprehension skills!

I trust you have read Prince Abubu's post by now. If you have newer data. please link it.

Ibn Batuta visited in 1331. The Yaaquub Abgaal took over Mogadishu from the Omani Muzzaffar dynasty only about 1625. (You may have missed the post above.) Abu Bakr is said to have come from Berbera, which was the reason for some of the discussion here. It is unreasonable because of the low Isaaq population at the time to think he was Habar Awal, and there is no association with any other Somali clan. You may have noticed that the Omani-Zanzibaris are quite dark and that the Suldan wrote on the back of court documents "as was always the custom with these people." No. That doesn't work. Himyar was in Mog probably since before the beginning of the Common Era; Omanis were there beginning about 900, so I doubt they had trouble fitting in. Notice that Ibn Batuta does not mention the Ajuraan at all.

This is from a 340 plus page doctoral dissertation on Genetic variation among the Khoisan of South Africa written in 2010., page 223 and following:

http://wiredspace.wits.ac.za/bitstream/handle/10539/8992/CM_SCHLEBUSCH_THESIS.pdf?sequence=1

"The remaining E-M35* haplotypes were divided into two groups, one group are closely associated with the E-M78 and E-M34 subgroups and the other far larger group was separate from these (Figure 4.15 and 4.16). At the time that the experimental work, which form part of this thesis, was done the E-M293 marker (Hennet al, 2008) was not identified yet. As discussed in the Introduction (see section 1.2.2.3) the E-M293 was found to encompass all the !Xun and Khwe E-M35* haplotypes from that study (Hennet al, 2008). Furthermore, closely related E-M293 haplotypes was identified in the Hadza and Sandawe at high frequencies. The study linked the E-M293 marker to the introduction of pastoralism to the southern parts of Africa (Hennet a, 2008). "

There were also shifts to E-M75 and E-M2.

Definitely agree with you about the need for more testing.
Abu Bakr was a Berber from the Land of Berbers. Not from Berbera, that's a translation error only found on Wikipedia. Of course you already know this, you're just using a cop out. And Arabs wouldn't call other Arabs dark, especially back then. See you still enjoy heavy guesswork.




But what's important is this, why is the Norwegian ethnicity not a farce but the Somali one is then? Considering why you believe the Somali ethnicity is a farce, you must certainly believe the Norwegian one is too which is why I'm perplexed. What is it that puts them apart?
 
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I am not sure why Grant is denying the ruler of Mogadishu at the time of Ibn Battuta was Somali. Not too many "dark-skinned, speaking the local dialect" Arabs existed then. Barbers were all the dark-skinned inhabitants of the Somali peninsula. This written account of Ibn Battuta is only 750 years ago or less. You are just being stubborn.

Also Grant, how does one shift in haplogroups? Are you serious on this one? Khoisan people are one of the earliest peoples, and since Y chromosome does not recombine, and is slow to mutate, no way these folks shifted to "E" in the last 2 to 3k years ago as you suggested in one of your posts.

As for Madagascar, if the paternal haplogroup is T and J, then it is safe to assume Antemoro are descendants of Arab sailors.

As for Haplogroup T origins, the latest study puts it around northern Arabian peninsula/Levant (predates Arabs), not Persia. Even it were Persian, it predates anything Persian as we currently know it.

What we need are more tests, Full Y would be helpful, to ascertain which clade is commonly the Somali Dir haplotype. I am T-M70 ( a subclade of T-M184), according to 23& Me this man lived 30,000 years ago, or 1,200 generations ago. Location? Probably ME/NA.

View attachment 28531
Additionally, on the subject of the Khoisan:

https://phys.org/news/2014-02-western-eurasian-genes-southern-african.html

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693.full

The pastoral portion of the Khoisan, the Khoikhoi, carry both Neanderthal and Eurasian markers associated with the Natufians. This has lead some to believe their migration reached as far north as the Levant. Certainly, the sheep they brought with them to South Africa were from there. The migration through Tanzania is proven, but the northern terminus and route have yet to be determined. At least theoretically, it should be to the north. The Khoikhoi arrived in South Africa about 2000 years ago.
 
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Additionally, on the subject of the Khoisan:

https://phys.org/news/2014-02-western-eurasian-genes-southern-african.html

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/31/10693.full

The pastoral portion of the Khoisan, the Khoikhoi, carry both Neanderthal and Eurasian markers associated with the Natufians. This has lead some to believe their migration reached as far north as the Levant. Certainly, the sheep they brought with them to South Africa were from there. The migration through Tanzania is proven, but the northern terminus and route have yet to be determined. At least theoretically, it should be to the north. The Khoikhoi arrived in South Africa about 2000 years ago.
Or maybe, just maybe, it's the other way around and it's proof of Cushitic/Omotic speakers traveling south into southeast Africa and intermingling with Khoisan tribes.

You seem to have a pet theory and you won't let it go.
 
Or maybe, just maybe, it's the other way around and it's proof of Cushitic/Omotic speakers traveling south into southeast Africa and intermingling with Khoisan tribes.

You seem to have a pet theory and you won't let it go.
Not my theory. Your comment is just proof you don't like to read long articles. :mjohreally:
 
@Grant


Why won't you answer my question? Since you have no problem stating what you believe is fact and the absolute truth, you should have no qualms when being asked about it.


Or maybe, just maybe, it's the other way around and it's proof of Cushitic/Omotic speakers traveling south into southeast Africa and intermingling with Khoisan tribes.

You seem to have a pet theory and you won't let it go.
If you search for "Khoisan" with my username in this thread you can find the theory I put up, which is backed by recent discoveries. In short the Khoisan used to live in and around Ethiopia, where they mixed with Ethiopian Cushites who had travelled south, which resulted in the exchange of haplogroup A and E between the two populations before the Khoisan then travelled down the coast to South Africa. This event also shows that the Somali split off early into the Somali Peninsula from the other Cushites as there is no find of such admixture in the Somali population.
 
@Grant


Why won't you answer my question? Since you have no problem stating what you believe is fact and the absolute truth, you should have no qualms when being asked about it.




If you search for "Khoisan" with my username in this thread you can find the theory I put up, which is backed by recent discoveries. In short the Khoisan used to live in and around Ethiopia, where they mixed with Ethiopian Cushites who had travelled south, which resulted in the exchange of haplogroup A and E between the two populations before the Khoisan then travelled down the coast to South Africa. This event also shows that the Somali split off early into the Somali Peninsula from the other Cushites as there is no find of such admixture in the Somali population.

I don't respond to you because you do not read my answers to your questions or those of others. This was all posted above:

https://operationoverload.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/a-concise-history-of-mogadishu/

"Cerulli has recorded traditional narrative of how the Darandole conquered Mogadishu against the Muzaffar dynasty:

“In ancient times the Sirasi lived in Mogadiscio. The people called Halawani succeeded the Sirasi. The Mudaffar succeeded the Halawani. The Mudaffar came from the country of Yemen in Arabia. He had guns. He built the palace that is found under the Governor’s house. He was a friend of the Aguran. At that time the Mudaffar governed the coast; and the Aguran ruled in the woodland. The Hirabe were not nearby them; they lived in the northern places. At that time the people of the woodland could not spend the night in the city of Mogadiscio. At sunset a ban was put on the city: ‘Hawiyya, it is growing dark! Hawiyya, it is growing dark!’ Then they went away toward the woodland."

“Later the Mudaffar had an interpreter who was called ‘Ismankäy Haggi ‘Ali. This ‘Ismankäy had the idea of letting the Darandollä enter the city. A message was sent to the imam Mahmud ‘Umar, who lived at Golol. The imam, guiding his Page: 71 warriors, came south and approached Mogadiscio. Then what did ‘Ismankäy do? He spoke with the Mudaffar: ‘By now the Darandollä are near Mogadiscio, let me be accompanied by some soldiers, and I shall go to them.’ ‘How do you want to do it?’ ‘I shall do it this way. I shall come to an agreement with the leaders and make them return to the places in the north.’ ‘So be it!’ said the Mudaffar. Then ‘Ismänkäy took some soldiers with him, but without weapons: ‘Leave your weapons! We go out to conclude an agreement, not really for war.’ They put down the weaons. They went into the woodland. When they had gone into the woodland, the Darandollä came out and took all the soldiers prisoner. Then they continued the raid and entered Mogadiscio. The Mudaffar was caputred and they wanted to kill him. But he, looking at the people who had come close to him, saw among them ‘Ismankäy Haggi Ali. ‘Stop!’ he said then. ‘Before you kill me, I want to speak. O ‘Ismankäy, you are good for nothing, you are capable of nothing, you will not pass seven!’ he said. Thus was 248 ‘Ismankäy cursed. When the Mudaffar was killed, when seven days passed after his death, ‘Ismankäy died too. It happened exactly as he had been cursed.<!–[if !supportFootnotes]–>[5]<!–[endif]–>"
The Darandoolle have conquered Mogadishu city and killed the Muzzaffar governor sometime between 1590 and 1625. The approximate dates appear to be corroborated by a Portuguese document dated 1624<!–[if !supportFootnotes]–>[6]<!–[endif]–>."

This was my response to Xaagi-Cagmadigtee:

"Ibn Batuta visited in 1331. The Yaaquub Abgaal took over Mogadishu from the Omani Muzzaffar dynasty only about 1625. (You may have missed the post above.) Abu Bakr is said to have come from Berbera, which was the reason for some of the discussion here. It is unreasonable because of the low Isaaq population at the time to think he was Habar Awal, and there is no association with any other Somali clan. You may have noticed that the Omani-Zanzibaris are quite dark and that the Suldan wrote on the back of court documents "as was always the custom with these people." No. That doesn't work. Himyar was in Mog probably since before the beginning of the Common Era; Omanis were there beginning about 900, so I doubt they had trouble fitting in. Notice that Ibn Batuta does not mention the Ajuraan at all."

Neither the history nor my opinions have changed.

I agree with you that both the Somali and Norwegian populations have significant haplotype variances. The difficulty is that the ruling Somali elites have claimed at least since independence that there was only ONE Somalia: language and genetics. It was used to establish the 4.5 political system and to justify the expropriation and disenfranchisement of the Somali Minorities, who are calling it the ONE BS. Significant studies have shown both the problems with "ONE Somalia" and the differences and size of the Minorities, which they are saying are a third of the population.

http://reliefweb.int/report/somalia/study-minorities-somalia
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/pu...uarterly/un-and-somalias-invisible-minorities

The second article is old (1994) but notable in that it declares the Gabaweyn are indigenous and originally spoke Cushitic languages. Most Somalis consider them either Madow or Bantu.

This is from the the first article:

"Until recently, many people perceived Somalia as a country with a population of 7,000,0000 people who share one culture, one language and one religion. This was the impression given during previous regimes in order to sustain the illusion of homogeneity. One of the things that were deliberately downplayed was the existence of minority groups. Although the population of minority groups living in Somalia has not as yet been established, estimates indicate that they constitute one third of the total Somalia population; approximately 2,000,000 people. The minority groups include Bantu, Bravenese, Rerhamar, Bajuni, Eyle, Galgala, Tumal, Yibir and Gaboye. These groups continue to live in conditions of great poverty and suffer numerous forms of discrimination and exclusion."

Sadly, the article continues to confuse the Bantu with the Madowweyn, but does make this acknowledgement:

"The Bantu are believed to be descendants of Bantu communities in East and Central Africa from regions like Tanzania and Malawi, brought into Somalia by Arab slave traders. However, there are also other Bantu who are believed to be non-Somali, who lived in Somalia before the arrival of the aforementioned Bantu." The usage of "Bantu" is to be regretted.

I have seen nothing to support either of the notions: that Somalia is or was homogeneous or that Abu Bakr was a Samaale. That he was a Somali I do not doubt.
 
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I don't respond to you because you do not read my answers to your questions or those of others. This was all posted above:

https://operationoverload.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/a-concise-history-of-mogadishu/

"Cerulli has recorded traditional narrative of how the Darandole conquered Mogadishu against the Muzaffar dynasty:

“In ancient times the Sirasi lived in Mogadiscio. The people called Halawani succeeded the Sirasi. The Mudaffar succeeded the Halawani. The Mudaffar came from the country of Yemen in Arabia. He had guns. He built the palace that is found under the Governor’s house. He was a friend of the Aguran. At that time the Mudaffar governed the coast; and the Aguran ruled in the woodland. The Hirabe were not nearby them; they lived in the northern places. At that time the people of the woodland could not spend the night in the city of Mogadiscio. At sunset a ban was put on the city: ‘Hawiyya, it is growing dark! Hawiyya, it is growing dark!’ Then they went away toward the woodland."

“Later the Mudaffar had an interpreter who was called ‘Ismankäy Haggi ‘Ali. This ‘Ismankäy had the idea of letting the Darandollä enter the city. A message was sent to the imam Mahmud ‘Umar, who lived at Golol. The imam, guiding his Page: 71 warriors, came south and approached Mogadiscio. Then what did ‘Ismankäy do? He spoke with the Mudaffar: ‘By now the Darandollä are near Mogadiscio, let me be accompanied by some soldiers, and I shall go to them.’ ‘How do you want to do it?’ ‘I shall do it this way. I shall come to an agreement with the leaders and make them return to the places in the north.’ ‘So be it!’ said the Mudaffar. Then ‘Ismänkäy took some soldiers with him, but without weapons: ‘Leave your weapons! We go out to conclude an agreement, not really for war.’ They put down the weaons. They went into the woodland. When they had gone into the woodland, the Darandollä came out and took all the soldiers prisoner. Then they continued the raid and entered Mogadiscio. The Mudaffar was caputred and they wanted to kill him. But he, looking at the people who had come close to him, saw among them ‘Ismankäy Haggi Ali. ‘Stop!’ he said then. ‘Before you kill me, I want to speak. O ‘Ismankäy, you are good for nothing, you are capable of nothing, you will not pass seven!’ he said. Thus was 248 ‘Ismankäy cursed. When the Mudaffar was killed, when seven days passed after his death, ‘Ismankäy died too. It happened exactly as he had been cursed.<!–[if !supportFootnotes]–>[5]<!–[endif]–>"
The Darandoolle have conquered Mogadishu city and killed the Muzzaffar governor sometime between 1590 and 1625. The approximate dates appear to be corroborated by a Portuguese document dated 1624<!–[if !supportFootnotes]–>[6]<!–[endif]–>."

This was my response to Xaagi-Cagmadigtee:

"Ibn Batuta visited in 1331. The Yaaquub Abgaal took over Mogadishu from the Omani Muzzaffar dynasty only about 1625. (You may have missed the post above.) Abu Bakr is said to have come from Berbera, which was the reason for some of the discussion here. It is unreasonable because of the low Isaaq population at the time to think he was Habar Awal, and there is no association with any other Somali clan. You may have noticed that the Omani-Zanzibaris are quite dark and that the Suldan wrote on the back of court documents "as was always the custom with these people." No. That doesn't work. Himyar was in Mog probably since before the beginning of the Common Era; Omanis were there beginning about 900, so I doubt they had trouble fitting in. Notice that Ibn Batuta does not mention the Ajuraan at all."

Neither the history nor my opinions have changed.

I agree with you that both the Somali and Norwegian populations have significant haplotype variances. The difficulty is that the ruling Somali elites have claimed at least since independence that there was only ONE Somalia: language and genetics. It was used to establish the 4.5 political system and to justify the expropriation and disenfranchisement of the Somali Minorities, who are calling it the ONE BS. Significant studies have shown both the problems with "ONE Somalia" and the differences and size of the Minorities, which they are saying are a third of the population.

http://reliefweb.int/report/somalia/study-minorities-somalia
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/pu...uarterly/un-and-somalias-invisible-minorities

The second article is old (1994) but notable in that it declares the Gabaweyn are indigenous and originally spoke Cushitic languages. Most Somalis consider them either Madow or Bantu.

This is from the the first article:

"Until recently, many people perceived Somalia as a country with a population of 7,000,0000 people who share one culture, one language and one religion. This was the impression given during previous regimes in order to sustain the illusion of homogeneity. One of the things that were deliberately downplayed was the existence of minority groups. Although the population of minority groups living in Somalia has not as yet been established, estimates indicate that they constitute one third of the total Somalia population; approximately 2,000,000 people. The minority groups include Bantu, Bravenese, Rerhamar, Bajuni, Eyle, Galgala, Tumal, Yibir and Gaboye. These groups continue to live in conditions of great poverty and suffer numerous forms of discrimination and exclusion."

Sadly, the article continues to confuse the Bantu with the Madowweyn, but does make this acknowledgement:

"The Bantu are believed to be descendants of Bantu communities in East and Central Africa from regions like Tanzania and Malawi, brought into Somalia by Arab slave traders. However, there are also other Bantu who are believed to be non-Somali, who lived in Somalia before the arrival of the aforementioned Bantu." The usage of "Bantu" is to be regretted.

I have seen nothing to support either of the notions: that Somalia is or was homogeneous or that Abu Bakr was a Samaale. That he was a Somali I do not doubt.
I am not talking about Somalia, I'm talking about Somali people. Ethnic minorities have nothing to do with my question.

You said the Somali ethnicity was a farce, because not everybody were inbred hillbillies and there existed regional dialects in a people that inhabit vast lands. I've shown you that those arguments are stupid and that you do not apply them to other ethnicites. So I ask you again, why is the Somali ethnicity a farce yet others that fall in line with your argument aren't?

You purposefully conflated my question about the Somali ethnicity to be about all ethnicities and minorities in Somalia.
 
I am not talking about Somalia, I'm talking about Somali people. Ethnic minorities have nothing to do with my question.

You said the Somali ethnicity was a farce, because not everybody were inbred hillbillies and there existed regional dialects in a people that inhabit vast lands. I've shown you that those arguments are stupid and that you do not apply them to other ethnicites. So I ask you again, why is the Somali ethnicity a farce yet others that fall in line with your argument aren't?

You purposefully conflated my question about the Somali ethnicity to be about all ethnicities and minorities in Somalia.

I have said such things never in my life. Period. Those are YOUR words.

Of course, in "One Somalia", there are no Minorities. That is the problem with your question and the whole notion of "ONE Somalia".. It has nothing at all to do with reality, which is that one-third of the Somali population is Minority and the other two-thirds are deeply divided for other reasons. Dude, you don't read me any better than you read Sada Mire or the DNA studies. You just ignore all the parts you don't like and accuse me of rambling and being incomprehensible and a liar when I bring up the parts you ignore. Do not expect additional responses from me until you learn to read and follow a logical discussion. This post in particular would be laughable if it weren't so sad. At least for now, I am done with you.
 
I have said such things never in my life. Period. Those are YOUR words.

Of course, in "One Somalia", there are no Minorities. That is the problem with your question and the whole notion of "ONE Somalia".. It has nothing at all to do with reality, which is that one-third of the Somali population is Minority and the other two-thirds are deeply divided for other reasons. Dude, you don't read me any better than you read Sada Mire or the DNA studies. You just ignore all the parts you don't like and accuse me of rambling and being incomprehensible and a liar when I bring up the parts you ignore. Do not expect additional responses from me until you learn to read and follow a logical discussion. This post in particular would be laughable if it weren't so sad. At least for now, I am done with you.
Oh I must have been daydrea-
These lies are a major part of the problem. Somalis are NOT homogenous, do NOT have the same religion, do NOT speak the same language and do NOT have the same culture. That was academic BS from the 60's. Get real, people. Once the hope of Somaliweyn died, it was all over. The natural divisions opened up
:ivers:


Again going on about your "yeah did u know minorities!" like that is anything anyone here has even talked about let alone disputed. You are rambling, don't deny it. And you're obviously still salty about the fact that you didn't read the abstract of the Sada Mire journal, which I pointed out was invalidating your entire arguement.





Over my dead body will an old bored white man dictate what is or isn't my ethnicity :camby:
 
@Garad

Your endorsement of Lord Flakes' moronic post once again puts you in the same category. Anyone who can actually read will have noticed that he can't read Sada Mire and that his quote from me

"Grant said:
These lies are a major part of the problem. Somalis are NOT homogenous, do NOT have the same religion, do NOT speak the same language and do NOT have the same culture. That was academic BS from the 60's. Get real, people. Once the hope of Somaliweyn died, it was all over. The natural divisions opened up"

is another condemnation of "One" Somalia, which he claims not to be defending. The "You said the Somali ethnicity was a farce, because not everybody were inbred hillbillies and there existed regional dialects in a people that inhabit vast lands." was part of his own description of the Norwegian ethnicity. I used the word "farce" only in quoting him. I did not, and would not use that word or "inbred hillbillies" to describe either Somalis or any Somali haplotype or the ethnicity in general. And I did not use the phrase "vast lands". Of course, you missed all that.

So. How is your new run at Punt and Origins going? Or are other folks also on to you?
 
@Garad

Your endorsement of Lord Flakes' moronic post once again puts you in the same category. Anyone who can actually read will have noticed that he can't read Sada Mire and that his quote from me

"Grant said:
These lies are a major part of the problem. Somalis are NOT homogenous, do NOT have the same religion, do NOT speak the same language and do NOT have the same culture. That was academic BS from the 60's. Get real, people. Once the hope of Somaliweyn died, it was all over. The natural divisions opened up"

is another condemnation of "One" Somalia, which he claims not to be defending. The "You said the Somali ethnicity was a farce, because not everybody were inbred hillbillies and there existed regional dialects in a people that inhabit vast lands." was part of his own description of the Norwegian ethnicity. I used the word "farce" only in quoting him. I did not, and would not use that word or "inbred hillbillies" to describe either Somalis or any Somali haplotype or the ethnicity in general. And I did not use the phrase "vast lands". Of course, you missed all that.

So. How is your new run at Punt and Origins going? Or are other folks also on to you?
Really going to get upset over a like? And still rambling like a mad mad too, what a shame


You do know what paraphrasing means right? You even claimed Djiboutians aren't Somali, and that they alongside all non E1b1b1 Somalis aren't Cushitic either despite Cushitic being a fucking linguistic group which you showed yourself. A linguistic group that includes the Somali language therefore making everybody who speaks it as their native tounge a Cushite.
You claim "Somali" isn't real and only applies to some Somalis from Somalia only, among other weird things.


You also claim that all Somali dialects are pretty much their own language which you believe furthers your opinion that the Somali ethnicity is a farce. I used the phrase "vast lands" as a counter, because guess what. Of course there will be regional dialects in a people who are largely rural, live sparsely in vast lands. That is also where one of my comparisons to the Norwegians came into place because they too inhabited vast lands that stretch far, that is too sparsely populated. That's why they got a f*ck ton of different dialects that are very different to eachother, this is despite the fact that they've had a standardized language for far longer that Somalis. They also have two different written scripts.



It is funny seeing you go mad, only makes it easier for me to dissect your words and throw them right back at you.




And you're still hung up on the Sada Mire journal thing :uCkf6mf:


Tell me, how have I read this wrong?
"This report is an archaeological testimony to the social complexity and cultural diversity of this region as a cultural crossroads for millennia, being strategically located on the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. However, the maps by no means exhaust the number of archaeological sites known to us in Somaliland. The region had vast Cushitic, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic Empires that at times formed part of the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures of Southern Arabia, the Aksumite Empire and early Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa.
She definitely wrote Cushitic to describe the pre Islamic and pre Christian people. If she meant there were non-cushtitic inhabitants, she would have said "non/pre-Cushtitic", or not even make the distinction at all.


Got more coming or will you hunt down the next person who dares to click like:icon lol:
 

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